KittensRuleBeetsDrool

I appreciate the bolded because I have alot of trouble with Sansa's story with LF. I have come to realize that her story with LF is similar to Arya's in Braavos with the HoBW and Bran with the BR. Each of these Stark children are with their mentors now. How grey to to dark the will finally get remains to be seen, but for me currently Sansa's journey is difficult to read because I hate LF so much.

However, I must admit, parsing through this thread and others has brought out detail and thoughts that make for a more interesting and fleshed out read of this chapter.

I agree with this - LF is meant to be Sansa's mentor, and so she will probably be at his side (and, I hope, just that!) for some time. And I hate LF too. I think here is the rub. LF is responsible for more destruction and more deaths of characters we, the readers, have come to care about, and he's a pervy creep to boot - in a way that the Kindly Man and Bloodraven are not. The deaths the KM is responsible for are not beloved characters like Ned; BR's interactions have been with those in the Dunk and Egg stories, and not everyone has read those. And we don't see either one perving on tween girls like LF did with Sansa when they first met. Arya's and Bran's mentors aren't personally loathsome (yet) in a way that Sansa's is. I see that as one of the main problems some have with the Sansa-learns-from-LF storyline. Bran and Arya are learning from ruthless men who have killed; so is Sansa, but LF is a weasel and a perv on top of everything else. The KM isn't asking for "fatherly" kisses from Arya, and, as for BR, it's hard for a tree to grope someone.

^If LF dies, Sansa has the lord of the Vale in her pocket, and if Harry is still alive she has the heir too, that at least buys her a chance to explain everything to Bronze Yhon/Nestor. I cannot understand why you think Sansa would voluntarily leave. Everyone likes her, why would they all just turn on her because they found out her true identity?

Yes. Many of the Vale lords will have known Ned Stark (who was fostered in the Vale), and they have no reason to love the Lannisters. In fact, most of them wanted to enter the war on Robb Stark's side against the Lannisters - who they believe killed Jon Arryn. If "Alayne" is unmasked as Sansa, the first reaction would be to shield her from the evil Lannisters. "Ned's little girl" and all that.

We really don't know how many of the lords are truly won over by LF, either. The feast at the Gates of the Moon seems an obvious indication that he's buying their allegiance - and there are so many warnings about sellswords and sellsails turning on their employers once the money runs out, I don't think LF's cash is going to buy him immunity forever.

I don't think Sansa will be kidnapped and brought back to KL by Shadrich - or, if it does happen, it is bad writing, and here is why I think so:

1) Why should Sansa trust Shadrich? She learned that lesson with Dontos. (Who, btw, I think sincerely wanted to help her on some level at the same time he was in the pay of LF. I think Dontos trusted LF too well himself - LF probably told him, "I'm a dear, close friend of Sansa's mother and I only want the best for Sansa!") I don't think she's going to be sneaking off to meet Shadrich in the godswood, or wherever, anytime soon.

2) The circumstances are against it. As I and others have pointed out, it's not easy to sneak people into or out of the Gates of the Moon, especially now with LF having Gulltown's ports closed. The reason the Great Spring Sickness did not affect the Vale was that it is easy to cut off access in and out of it.

3) LF got Sansa out of KL by taking advantage of the pandemonium surrounding Joffrey's death, and he had help (Dontos, a boat, etc.). Sansa was unwatched and unguarded. "Alayne" is surrounded by Petyr, Sweetrobin, Myranda, and, soon, eight Winged Knights.

4) Speaking of which - if "Alayne" disappears, the tantrum Sweetrobin will throw will be heard all the way in Dorne. He is going to command those Winged Knights of his to "FIND ALAYNE! OR I WILL MAKE YOU FLY!"

5) Yet Another Hostage In KL Arc would be repetitive and, frankly, bad writing. We've been there and done that and the plot needs to move forward.

6) The only people who are interested in trying Sansa for regicide are dead (Tywin, Kevan) or imprisoned and disgraced (Cersei). I don't think the Tyrells want a trial, as they are too busy with rescuing Margaery, dealing with Ironborn, and propping up their own rule in the capital. If they want Sansa, it's to get her to marry Willas for real this time; as far as they know, she's still the heiress to Winterfell and potentially Riverrun as well. Shadrich's going to be mighty disappointed if he expects Lannister gold in exchange for Sansa.

If Shadrich is in the pay of Varys, then Sansa is not headed to Cersei and KL, but to wherever Aegon is, possibly for another Stark/Martell/Targaryen love triangle (oh please noooooo). Or, possibly, to Highgarden to marry Willas, if Varys is trying to get in the Tyrells' good books. GRRM has said we'll see Highgarden in TWOW - maybe it will be through Sansa.

Crossing my fingers for no backtracking to KL for Sansa...

Benjicot (which sounds like a variety of apricot!) is a castle servant. It is a Blackwood family name, though, which may or may not be significant.

I recall a SSM where GRRM pointed out that one of Littlefinger's big disadvantages, as far as power is concerned, is that he has no army. He does have a few sellswords in his pay, but there is a reason they are called sellswords. When the gold runs out, somebody else has more gold, or the risk is too high (see: Bronn refusing to fight Gregor Clegane for Tyrion) their loyalty is gone, too. Does LF have anyone who is truly loyal to him and not his money? There might be, but I think they could be counted on the fingers of one hand.

OTOH, the Winged Knights seem to be the start of an army, or at least a Kingsguard-type organization, based upon loyalty, glory, and service rather than gold. And while LF is breaking his arm patting himself on the back for giving the young fighting men of the Vale a way to gain glory and honor...they are Sweetrobin's men, not his, and they may soon be "Alayne's" men too, because of SR's love (such as it is) for her. It's been rightfully pointed out that another abduction plotline for Sansa is redundant in the structure of the books, is not necessary for her character, and in any case would be difficult to accomplish in the Vale at this time. Add to this what SR would do if he found Sansa gone. Can you imagine the epic tantrum? He'd be kicking up a tremendous fuss and demanding that his new "Lordsguard" help find "Alayne" and bring her back right now! And considering how he wants Sansa's company most of the time, they'll be guarding her as well as him by default. I see the Winged Knights as the nucleus of what might be Sansa's army eventually.

I know that Shadrich is there for a reason - but I don't see how he could just grab Sansa and head to KL all by his lonesome. It's not easy to sneak in or out of the Vale - I recall that during the Great Spring Sickness, the Vale was spared because the ruling lord closed off Gulltown and the roads, quarantining the Vale. LF is already having the ports watched. It's going to take more than one guy with visions of gold dragons dancing in his head to get Sansa anywhere far. Shadrich is going to have to have quite a bit of help (and it would be interesting to see if he does) or he won't get far.

It would certainly be interesting if Brienne turns up at the tournament! "Sansa, your mom is looking all over for you! Well, yes, she IS technically dead...emphasis on technically...." If Brienne is Un-Brienne at this point, then the Persephone allusions in Sansa's arc would take on more emphasis as Sansa becomes a kind of Queen of the Dead...

Hm - there's something else going on that none of the Lannisters save Tyrion know about: Tyrion has persuaded Brown Ben Plumm to let him join the Second Sons mercenary company and is promising Plumm and his soldiers big fat hefty compensation. He's signing promissory notes in his own blood using Lannister wealth as collateral.

Leaving aside the question of the debt owed to the Iron Bank (which is Stannis' headache for now) and Queen Armed With Big Scary Dragon(s) making sure Lannisters pay their debts (might not happen until later in Book 6, or Book 7) will the invading Aegon army, or the Tyrells, get the idea to weaken the Lannister power base as much as possible so as to get their hands on the Westerlands gold mines? Casterly Rock might be all but immune to invasion itself, but Robb and his army successfully conquered a few castles and seized a few gold mines pre-Red Wedding.

That would be a waste of the subtle comment of the GC member about the fact that they still have friends in the realm.

Personally, my money is on Margaery being convicted (After Ungregor destroys Lancel or whoever they choose to fight against him, Cersei will be free to plot once more). Mace unwilling to let his daughter be killed (especially since the Ironborn victory would cost Garlan and/or Willas their lives) tries to save her.

A huge fight brakes out within the city, a lot of members of the faith (and civilians) get massacred. After this the Tyrells will be considered persona non grata, the Faith will declare for Faegon and most if not all of the remaining Tyrell supporters will flock to Faegon.

A fight within the walls of Kingslanding would also be beneficial to other plotlines, Cersei could loose another child, possibly by the hand of the Dornish who are certainly going to do their best to stir things up in and around Kingslanding.

Also, when the Dornishmen attack Cersei and her children they'll have a face-off with ser Robert Strong and although I'm fairly sure that they'll all perish in the attempt, they'll probably rip his helmet off, showing what lies underneath it and thus confirming that Ser Robert strong is in fact Ungregor and when that news reaches Sandor (where ever he is by then) he'll have no choice but to confront the thing that once was his brother

There was a remark by Tyrion (IIRC) in SoS about having Loras Tyrell on the Kingsguard being a recipe for "Kingslayer Stew" when (not "if") Loras caught Joffrey abusing Margaery - and then something about the lion versus the rose and the streets of King's Landing running with blood. Now that you mention it...that could be foreshadowing of what does happen if Marg is convicted of adultery. The details will be changed (no Loras or Joffrey) but if Marg is convicted the Tyrells will turn on the Lannisters, you can be sure of that. The Tyrells love Margaery and are convinced of her innocence and are not about to hand her over to Ilyn Payne and the block.

And right now things are looking pretty bleak for the Lannisters to mount any kind of defence: Tywin and Kevan dead, Tyrion on the run in Essos, Jaime distanced from his family, Cersei in a very precarious position herself and having alienated just about anyone who can help her, Myrcella and Tommen are little kids - about all they have left is Genna, who has her hands full with Riverrun, and maybe Daven, who is in Lannisport (and possibly bracing for an Ironborn attack) and may or may not be eager to rush to Cersei's rescue. Meanwhile the Council is full of Tyrells and their allies led by Margaery's loving dad.

I sort of think it will be like a dog whistle, only in the sense that the dragon will come right to it. but no way will the dragon just show submission immediately, I mean they're dragons.

But I do think there is something to the Euron/Vic arrangement. Either Euron thinks the Dragon will just kill Vic, but that is a big waste, or he thinks that Vic will get control of a dragon and what just fly back to the iron islands and just hand it over to Euron. That doesn't make sense either, I know they are brothers and Euron thinks Vic is weak, but how weak will Vic be when he flies up on a dragon with all the hatred he has for Euron built up from their whole lives??

Even if the dragon horn works like a dog whistle - even with a dog, once you have it, you have to know how to handle it, and dragons are thousands of times larger and more dangerous and unpredictable than dogs. Tootling the horn is the easy part. What to do with a dragon after it comes flying up to you is the hard part, as Quentyn found out too late. For Vic's sake, either Moqorro had better know something about dragon-taming or Rodrik the Reader is there with a copy of "Dragon Taming for Dummies." If a dragon does indeed come flying at the sound of the horn and Vic goes striding up and tries to climb on its back or whatever, he's going to be roasted alive in that kraken armor of his (shades of Rickard Stark!).

Meanwhile, Euron can't be blind to Vic's (and for that matter Aeron's) hatred of him. I doubt he wants the dragon to just kill Vic, as I agree it would be a waste (Vic is a competent captain of the Fleet, after all) and I have to wonder if he thinks Vic will just hand Dany and the dragons over. Maybe Euron really does. Perhaps he thinks Vic is just that dutiful.

More likely, I surmise, is that Euron knows that Vic wants to cheat him, and knows he will do it in the most obvious way possible, and his plan is to intercept the dragon before it gets to Vic somehow, and then make everyone, including Vic, bow to him in awe once more. I recall in one of Dany's later chapters in ADWD she dreamed of Hizdahr having sex with her, but his lips were blue and his penis was ice cold. I don't know about that last part but the blue lips made me think of Euron. I wonder if the "one to dread" for Dany refers to Euron.

Euron's fatal flaw is hubris, and just as he didn't count on antagonizing the Tyrells when he sacked the Shield Islands, he probably won't be counting on angering an army of Unsullied and maybe a horde of Dothraki (if Dany kills Khal Jhaqo with Drogo and takes over his khalasar).

Tywin and Joanna Lannister were first cousins and allowed to marry. And yes, in real life, cousin marriage was very common among European royalty, to form alliances and because there was a limited pool of marriage candidates. Anything closer than first cousins seems to have been a big no-no unless one was a Targaryen, and even then, not all Targs married their siblings.

So Arianne could marry Elia's son and that would be fine according to Westerosi tradition, and Doran would probably want that marriage for Arianne - assuming Aegon is real, that is. If Arianne were to marry a fake Aegon, at the least, the Martells have egg (har!) on their faces, at the most, they are in danger because they are associated with a pretender.

I wonder if Arianne, or anyone else, is going to find out that JonCon has the greyscale, and what will happen then.

the only thing he does that I think is dumb, is how he thinks of Euron. In my mind he should either follow Euron's orders even though that has not gotten him anything good in the past, or he should revolt against Euron. But instead he does a little of both, much like Freddo Corleone who stays with Michael and his family but still does wrong by them and almost gets Michael and His wife shot to pieces in their lovely home in the Sierra nevada mountains. Victarion is sent to bring back a dragon queen for Euron, but instead he decides half way there to take the bride for himself because of the past between him, his dead wife and Euron..

TO me that shows that he is Lost and doesn't really know what his purpose is in slaver's bay. And if he is trying to win Dany over to his side, does he think she will come willingly after he blows his horn? maybe he thinks it will tame the dragons and she will go wherever her Dragons go. No matter what reason he thinks he is there for, he is stupid, because Dany is not the kind of woman some pirate just takes with him. She is not going to go willingly and she is definitely not going to take kindly to someone trying to steal her dragons.

Best case scenario he is able to sneak in and steal Dany somehow and blows the horn and is able to control the dragons......then what?? Does he plan to just take them back and hand them to Euron? Since he has done everything else Euron has requested why wouldnt he carry out the whole plan and take her and the dragons back to Euron?

But from his POV we learn that he wants it all for himself and that is what is dumb! He is becoming greedy and feeling like he has not been given his due, (another Parallel to Freddo) but history shows that it does not end well for a greedy little brother who is not only going against his family and his brother who is now the King of the Iron islands, but he is going against what he knows is right.

All in all his trip to capture dany is going to serve nothing except to make her even more wary of westeros and the ppl who live there and possibly to give someone in Slaver's Bay a lot of ships.

I think this is a good point...Vic doesn't seem to have a well-thought-out plan beyond "screw Euron over by getting Dany and the dragons for myself and then have a good gloat." Assuming his dragon horn works, does Vic know what to do with dragons once they (presumably) come flying at the tootle of his horn? Quentyn Martell thought it would be easy-peasy to get a dragon and impress Dany, and we all know how well that turned out.

And I wonder if he has any kind of plan as to how he is going to woo Dany other than the usual "You are my saltwife" Ironborn method? That won't work on someone of Dany's caliber. What could work is if Vic actually tried to woo Dany and played up the "bad boy with an axe and armor" angle. Dany loves bad boys. It is known. (Note: I say this as a Dany stan. :) ) Perhaps Vic might try dying his beard blue.

If Vic goes into Meereen with an Underpants Gnomes non-plan (Step one: Blow dragon horn. Step two: ??? Step three: Become Dragon King and profit!) either he's going to wind up as Drogon's calamari snack or Euron is going to swoop in and (most likely) kill him.

Vic's biggest blind spot is his hatred for Euron. Well-justified, perhaps (though, like Asha, I feel sorriest for the wife) but Vic is not going to plan or act sensibly where Euron is concerned. After all, Balon had to exile Euron to prevent Vic from killing him (and also because he and Aeron hated Euron too). Vic thinks he has a golden opportunity to get back at Euron, but I am pretty sure that Euron has planned for this contingency, because Euron knows full well how much Vic hates him and that Vic wants to get back at him at first opportunity.

I wonder.. Do you think the "mount" she must ride "to bed" refers to Victarion? He seeks to marry Dany, and he has a horn that controls her dragons. She might have to get close to him (i.e. marry him) and let him bed her in order to steal that dragon horn and escape. The mount, by the way, is Drogon. She will be riding the dragon, but the dragon will be flying to Victarion. Hizdhar, by this point, of course is dead. Victarion will see to that, I'm sure.

I believe her mounts are her actual mounts - she rides her silver to bed (with Drogo) and then she's now on Drogon to dread (the meeting with Khal Jhaqo?) and then to love is...? But we will see! (As far as bed/dread/love with actual people, Dany loved Drogo, he was her sun and stars, so he was more than just a bedmate to her...maybe that means she's already had her "love" part of the prophecy?)

I'm wondering about that "tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms sailing on a sea of blood" that was supposed to be the biggest threat to Dany in one of the prophecies. That sounds just like Euron to me. I think he might have set Vic up - possibly with a fake dragon's horn? - and is going to swoop in, possibly with the real dragon's horn, at a crucial point. I'm sure Euron knows how to play Vic like a fiddle, or like a kraken's tentacles. He knows Vic hates him and he knows Vic would want to get back at him and would be Captain Obvious about it. I don't see it ending well.

GRRM has said himself that Vic is "Dumb as a stump" so I wonder if he's going to meet a Quentyn-ish fate trying to tame a dragon. Euron, OTOH, just might have brushed up on his Dragon Taming 101, and he's hung out with enough interesting people (or so he says) and quaffed enough hallucinogens to pose some kind of threat.

What I'm wondering as far as all this tying in with Barristan and Co. is if they will be able to use the Iron Fleet to go back to Westeros. If they can get the ironborn on their side, or gain control over them, the ships are right there...but they'd be advised to have at least a few ironmen around because they are the ones who know how to actually sail them.