Posts posted by FittleLinger
Excuse me if it has been asked above but the guards mention about a queen that will have Suift's head if he returns without gold. But Kevan sent him to Braavos not the queen. So it means Cersei has come back to power (as it seems impossible Queen Margaery uses such language) and won her trial?
It was discussed, yes, even before that, but you can look at pg. 5 and 6 of the current thread, starting from my post number 94. Me and some other posters are discussing whether it's a confirmation or merely a possibility that Cersei is the queen that they are talking about.
The discussion should be about the Mercy chapter. Please try to avoid thread 'drift'.
It's about whether the bounty ot Tyrion (that the Lannister guards talk about in the Mercy chapter) strictly means that Cersei is still in charge? I think that it's generally on topic, but if you disagree, I'll stop.
Why would he show up? Cersei wants him dead. In fact, now that there's a play (or several) depicting him exactly as Cersei imagined him to be, probably most people want him dead. Tyrion is very unlikely to return to Westeros under any circumstances that would raise questions the Tyrells couldn't answer.
I wasn't suggesting that the Tyrells lie and say that they had Tyrion, but rather, that they spread the word that Tyrion was killed. They could say he was hiding in the Tower of the Hand when it burned, or that he was fleeing on a ship that sank.
If he then showed up, they could say, "well, we thought he was dead. But we can execute him now, so no harm done."
Agreed that the nose and eyes would give him away to anyone who had ever seen him.
Ok, but the question remains - why? Why mend something that's not broken? Tyrion being wanted by the law suits them perfectly. Why complicate things with unnecessary lies?
The argument that they really feel for the random dwarves around the world doesn't hold water, I think.
There is a new High Septon and dead dwarves showing up won't endear the Tyrells to him, and they had better make friends even after everything because he is the head of the rabble that is growing and I don't think even the Tyrells can have the PR to hold them off, especially with all their armies needed for the Ironborn, a PR disaster in the making, a replay of the loss of Winterfell. A rabid dwarf hunt won't help them, and remember, we have had dwarven holy men so far in the books, at least one, and I think he was killed. They need the High Septon in a bloody good mood to call a crusade on the Ironborn.
I don't disagree, I would toss a coin, it's just as savvy as Marge seems, the first dwarven head plopped down in front of her...well, I just like the believe she is nicer than that, and so is Tommen who likely has very pleasant memories of his uncle, while having horrible memories of Joffrey and likely little to no fond memories of Tywin. Hell, in a couple of years Tommen may just pardon Tyrion, I would if I was him (I personally thing Tyrion is evil, I've explained why in other posts).
They kill quite a few birds with zero stones by not taking action against the Tyrion hunt, I think. First, they don't suddenly catch the killer whom eluded Cersei (the murdered King's mother) and her men and pretty much everyone by simply saying that the next dwarf was him. That would be suspicious.
Second, everyone is on a wild goose chase for the murderer, while they are actually the murderers - why change this so fortunate and beneficious status quo?
Third, someone might actually kill Tyrion after all, which again is only profit for them - the only two remaining Lannisters will be their puppet Tommen and the crippled KG Jaime.
Fourth, byt not canceling the hunt, the new Queen would be showing that she holds respect for the former king Joff and she has not forgotten and she wants the murderer punished. Again, good PR and suspicion - off.
Or they could declare him dead, solving their problem AND his. The murderer is dead, therefore no more need to keep slaughtering innocent dwarves. Kills two birds at once--he's guilty, he's dead, the Tyrells can call off the manhunt and go on with their lives. I don't think Margaery is interested in seeing an endless parade of dwarf heads, nor does she fear Tyrion's return per se. If she declares him dead, that is actually better than a manhunt, because even if Tyrion shows up, he'll have to prove who he is, and he won't be able to.
Yes, but if the actual Tyrion shows up? To which the chances get boosted when everyone thinks he's dead.
How could Tyrion not prove who he is? First, many in court know and have seen him.Second, the nose thing? Mismatched eyes? And easiest of all, say some stuff that only Tyrion could know. Jaime, of course and Tommen will recognize him.
And in such a scenario comes the question - why did they lie about Tyrion being captured and killed, and why is he returning?
The answer - "Because I did not do it and they know it".
She would not have a clear political reason to, you're right. Not that Margaery wants Tyrion's head - for trial, yes, but the whole trade-a-lordship-for-the-dwarf's-head thing was 100% Cersei.
That being said, I think the men referring to "the Queen" mean Cersei. Remember these are Lannister men, and even if they do not know of Cersei's release, in any power struggle, who do they think is really the one to follow?
I do agree the queen they refer to is more likely to be Cersei. But it could be a slight of hand. If Cersei, Tywin, Kevan are dead, Tyrion is most wanted and Jaime is in the KG, whilst their king (Tommen Lannister) is married to Marge, why wouldn't they be loyal to Tommen and Marge? (and thus indirectly, to the Tyrells)
That's a really good point! Can you expand a little what you mean by 'Why would Marge cancel the bounty on Tyrion when this means that the Tyrells are off the hook?'
Yes, that it would be suspicious to call off that bounty once all the important Lannisters including Joff are dead, and the Tyrells are comfortably in charge. She has absolutely zero reason to do it.
Plus,she would be openly disagreeing with the Queen Mother's opinion that it was Tyrion, while Tyrion is on the loose, Sansa is gone, and pretty much everyone is on a hunt for the dwarf to get a lordship. Absolutely unnecessary move that can do zero gain and can only be disadvantegeous.
Yes, I also agree. If Marge is Queen, Cersei is toast. The only person in the world who would care if Tyrion was found would be Jaime and he likely doesn't want Tyrion dead or maybe even care if he is found. So, Marge seems more likely to call off the bounty because all its doing is getting a lot of dwarves killed.
I don't think that there is place for compassion when it comes to attracting unnecessary suspicion to yourself (about the murder of the king, that is), while there is a very clear suspect. Tyrion pretty much sealed it when he escaped. He also killed his father, you know.
It's true that Margaery and her family were in the clear because of Cersei's insistence that Tyrion and Sansa must have done it. But what if Margaery were to find someone already dead, to pin it on? She could simply declare that Tyrion was one of the dwarves already brought in, and that mad Cersei didn't recognize her own brother. I do think that she might feel bad for all these innocent dead guys, and want to do something. And she probably also feels guilty about Tyrion and Sansa.
She could "determine" that Joffrey was actually poisoned by Ser Dontos, or Shae, or Tywin Lannister. There are quite a few dead people who could suddenly be discovered to have been the real assassin. I admit I want to see the Tyrells off the hook for it. I want them to get away with it. But I also want Tyrion to be able to eventually just come home to Casterly Rock, and I want Sansa to be able to come out of hiding.
The whole point was that Cersei might not be the queen in charge, but the bounty on Tyrion could still be on. I don't think the Tyrells are a compassionate bunch, for one, and I don't see them that stupid to declare the single most wanted person, who is a very clear suspect for the murder THEY actually committed, innocent.
Plus, by not doing so, they have another huge advantage - someone might actually kill Tyrion, thus eradicating the Lannisters pretty much for good.
It just occured to me that the reference to the queen wanting Tyrion's head doesn't necessarily mean it's Cersei.
Why would Marge cancel the bounty on Tyrion when this means that the Tyrells are off the hook?
It occured to me while I was reading the chapter where Jorah captures Tyrion and tells him he will bring him to the Queen. At this point we are to think that this Queen is Cersei, but it's in fact Dany.
Thank you for correcting. I remember illyro telling about Serra's hand which was so soft, so I assumed it became hard and stone like, and jumped to grayscale theory. I was also under the assumption that the plague and gray scale was the same disease. So if grayscale doesn't spread like plague, its a good thing. Tyrion being dormant carrier is scary, but if he dies, that infallibly makes Sansa free to marry someone more suitable(although personally I want Sansa and Tyrion back together).
It could be greyscale, and honestly that was my first feeling, but upon reread I realized that's never stated.
JonCon's Grayscale- crackpot theory:
There is nothing cursed about waters or stone men. This is why Tyrion didn't get infected.
JonCon gets infected from Aegon, who got it from his mother Serra, Illyro's wife. She died of grayscale.
Aegon was cured as a child, like Shireen. Luckily for him, no signs are visible. But as Val fears, the disease is just being dormant for a time and may infect others. Val wanted monster away from Shireen.
Maybe i was wrong about the waters. Probably long exposure to infected boy plus the water did JonCon in. That would explain why the septa or duck are not infected.
It's not confirmed that Serra had greyscale, only a "plague". Rats brought the plague from the ship (we don't have examples of greyscale being carried like that), also it would be stupid to preserve some of her remains (hands and hair) if they could be contageous, so I don't think it was greyscale.
The waters are not cursed, just contaminated. Also, Tyrion might have it in some dormant/carrier/not yet developed form, which is another semi-crackpot of mine.
Why is it that no one seems to be very concerned with Stannis' claim of Joff/Tommen/Myrcella's incestual origins? Granted, the Lannisters are still very powerful, and no one wants to buck them just yet, but shouldnt there be more widespread concern about this? He sent ravens to everyone!
I supposed the Queen of Thorns will figure out a way to twist that around to ditch Lannisters and retain the crown, but wouldnt anyone else care?
Because it's virtually unprovable unless Cersei admits (which she won't, because that will mean death), and this will lead to an open rebellion against the throne, and Stannis is just another contender who in theory could say anything to solidify his claim, and, on top of that, is weaker than the Lannisters. In short, there is little to gain and a lot to lose if they back Stannis' claim.
Has coldhands been left out of the HBO tv series?
I heard he was cast. But that was long ago, could have been changed, but I don't think so.
Also, it's not the guy that played Benjen. This could mean something...or not
Considering how the Watch will have probably fallen apart thanks to it, putting to death will probably be indistinguishable from "killed in chaos."
Yep, and it also depends on the point of view of who the real turncloak and traitor is.
As the NW has no higher authority than their LC, I don't think there are clear rules of what happens if the LC himself turns cloak / does something that is considered against the NW vows and purpose. I guess a mutiny is the only thing to do if your LC is the "bad guy", so it would really depend on how the strong of the day see it.
Dragons guarding their hoard stretch way back in mythology before The Hobbit.
Exactly, I can't even think of a culture that doesn't have the "dragon guarding treasure" trope in their mythology and folklore.
Is Wyman Manderly Dead?
Wyman's throat is nearly slit open but his knights intervene. He is treated by Maester Medrick for his wounds.
There was also a great piece of foreshadowing, where someone says how if Wyman gets stabeed, his layers of fat won't let the blade kill him, and I think that's almost exactly what happened.
There was one bit in ADwD that bugged me a little bit, what was the logic behind Arya's "face transplant"? and why could she not feel the difference on her own face? I thought about it for a while, since The Kindly Man never removed her own face, just cut above the eyebrow, then slipped the face on. Was this a proper procedure? Or was a healthy dose of magic involved?
It was not a proper procedure - they didn't cut her face off and replace it with a new one, they just made some cut (for blood magic purposes I believe) and attached the new one on top of her old one.
The facechanging business is most interesting - to they have a cache of faces they can change into at will? Or maybe only their real one and a new one? Did Jaqen cut Pate's face off to change himself? What was important about the Arya transplant you are mentioning is, that it confirms, at least to me, that a FM has one "real" face as well as the fake ones.
Another question about Coldhands:
When he meets Sam he call him Brother (brother over here). Later with Bran they are chased by some men from the nights watch, he refer to them as "enemies" and kill them.
They betrayed the LC in the mutiny, thus betraying the NW, thus not brothers anymore? Whereas Sam remained true.
Couldn't it foreshadow Quentyn's death? Westerosi, stranger, three dragons?
The rules are never spelled out to us, but it does seem plausible that the wights could pass the wall because the NW carried them across.
However, it could also be that while the Black Gate carries the protection against wight-like beings (we know that it keeps out Coldhands), the Castle Black Gate does not. We simply don't know, but on the other hand that gives us a great freedom to speculate ;-)
(By the way, just to make sure: Others and WW are used as synonyms for the ice sidhe like beings. The reanimated corpses are referred to as wights. Coldhands resembles a wight in several respects, but his eyes are black instead of blue. Maybe this somehow signifies that he's not being controlled by the Others.)
Another perspective - if we assume Coldhands is the Night's king or another kind of traitor/deserter, maybe that's the reason he cannot pass. The wights that passed were actually thrutful NW brothers before they were wighted.
I've been reading a great book on world mythology recently, and I found similarities between Shiva and Bloodraven. (this post might get long).
First, Shiva's birth:
"... a pillar of fire in the form of an enormous phallus appeared in front of them. It was so tall that it's tip disappeared into the clouds and its base seemed to be buried deep in the ground...
Shiva has three eyes, the third represents wisdom. He is a complex character which is represented bu his 1008 titles (a thousand eyes and one?). Bloodraven is also a complex character - great bastard, Targ/First men, master of whispers, imprisoned, sent to the wall, LC of the NW, deserter, last greenseer... One of Shiva's weapons he is most associated with is his bow (BR's weirwood bow).
Shiva's form: Shiva has a Trident in the right lower arm, with a crescent moon on his head. He is said to be fair like camphor or like an ice clad mountain. He has fire and Damaru and Mala or a kind of weapon. He wears five serpents as ornaments. He wears a garland of skulls. He is pressing with his feet the demon Muyalaka, a dwarf holding a cobra (Leaf? Reaching here). He faces south (BR is in the north, maybe he faces south too). Panchakshara itself is his body.
Blue throat: The epithet Nīlakaṇtha (Sanskrit नीलकण्ठ; nīla = "blue", kaṇtha = "throat") since Shiva drank the Halahala poison churned up from the Samudra Manthan to eliminate its destructive capacity. This reminds me of the Shade of the evening, which may also be a way of "opening third eye". This is not really a reference to BR, for we don't have any evidence of him drinking shade, but still.
Small questions for ADwD, v.V
in A Dance with Dragons
In other words, they're a professional force, who is better prepared (less of a joke) than the regular Yunkai soldiers (who are a total joke, let's admit it), but come closer to unsullied than to pit fighters, slave soldiers, Tolosi slingshots and the rest of the freakshow in the Yunkai army.