Frey family reunion

He may have been he may not have been. It’s hard to say because Margaery hadn’t come to court. But at some time, they would have had to have his leave for Margaerys to have wed Robert. I don’t see him giving his leave if it was for Margaery to play step mom to Cersei’s children. Of course it’s possible, it may be akin to the Otto - Alicent situation, but Otto being the second son, had more limited options for his daughter, and the fact that the King had no sons was certainly an additional temptation. As for what Mace knew, I’m not sure. My guess is when Loras wrote his father it was just to bring Margaery to court. I highly doubt that Loras sent a letter detailing that he was planning on Robert bedding and marrying Margaery while Cersei was still queen. I think that’s too risky a letter to send. I think Varys added that tidbit when he talked to Eddard based on his own knowledge.

But Renly has to have a reason that he believes that Robert could and would set Cersei aside. If Renly believes that Cersei has been unfaithful and her children aren’t legitimate, than Renly has a pretty good reason to believe that Robert would set Cersei aside. No one else has been able to provide any other reason that makes sense. So either Renly is a complete imbecile or Renly has some knowledge of Cersei’s secret, I think those are the only two possibilities. And I don’t think that Renly is an imbecile.

The fairly convincing argument that he did know was that it made his initial plan with Margaery make much more sense. It seems highly unlikely that Mace would have backed a plan which would have reduced his daughter to being the stepmother to Cersei’s brood. In addition, I’m not sure why Renly thought that Robert could have set Cersei aside. Historically, that has never been allowed. But if Renly could convince Robert that Cersei has been unfaithful and all of her children are illegitimate, then that would certainly set up a situation which would allow Robert to set aside not only Cersei but her children as well. Renly has also continually treated Joffrey with disdain, which seems odd if Renly’s game plan was ultimately to become Joffrey’s regent. Which makes me think that this plan wasn’t limited to setting Cersei aside. As for not mentioning it to Ned, once he knew Robert was going to die it hurt Renly’s cause because this knowledge gives Stannis a legitimate claim to the throne. Renly’s primary allies are the Tyrells and they aren’t going to support Stannis as king. So Renly has to change course, and not only keep the children’s bastardy to himself, but to go out of his way to ridicule Stannis’ claim to prevent Stannis from using it to promote Stannis’ legitimacy. We’re never given Renly’s POV, and we only see him though the eyes of Cat and Davos. And Renly doesn’t gain by admitting to either one that Stannis is correct.

But how do we know he didn't come to that conclusion? He claims he didn't to Stannis and Cat but it's also in his best interest at that point in time to ridicule Stannis' claim because it gives Stannis a legitimate right to the throne. A legitimacy that Renly can't claim. If you look at the Small Council, Pycelle knew, Littlefinger knew, Varys knew, Stannis and Jon suspected, so it seems unlikely that Renly (and Barristan) would be the only two who didn't suspect. The difference between Jon and Stannis, is that they were trying to compile proof to take to Robert. They didn't have any ulterior motives. Pycelle obviously kept mum, because he was a fervent Lannister supporter. Varys and Littlefinger kept mum because it either didn't benefit their agendas, or they wanted to hold it close to vest until they could use it to their benefit. My guess is Renly might have been closer to Varys and Littlefinger. He had his own agenda to make his friend's sister queen, so he could gain further influence at court and with Margaery's heir.

Nope he would want to introduce Robert to Margaery first and hope that Robert takes an interest so they would have the inside track on the new queen once they revealed Cersei’s infidelity.

Renly's plan makes more sense if he had come to the conclusion that Cersei's children were illegitimate. He confides in Loras and they plan on introducing Robert to Margaery before they voice their suspicions to Robert. That way, they already have the inside track on the new Queen. They likewise remove Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella from succession and Margaery's future children will inherit the throne. The plan changes abruptly when Robert is gored by the boar. Now, if the illigitimacy of the children are revealed that gives Stannis a legitimate claim to the throne and the last thing the Tyrells would want is Stannis on the throne. So instead Renly keeps quiet about what he knows and plays coy when Stannis publicizes his suspicions, so Stannis doesn't have a better claim to the throne than him.

It’s an interesting proposition. “Maegor” is a dark shadow cast when a female line of House Targaryen is passed over. Visenya passed over by Aenys and Alyssa, Rhaena passed over by Jahaerys and Alysanne. Rhaenyra passed over by Aegon II. Not only was she called a “Maegor with teats”, her husband, Daemon was also likened to Maegor as well. The next female line that gets passed over is Daena the defiant’s line. The Blackfyre line. And Daemon Blackfyre’s strongest supporter was Aegor Rivers. Awfully close to Maegor.

I would also add that Rhaena was passed over when Jahaerys and Alysanne took the throne as well. Something Rhaena seems keenly aware of.

That may give us some insights into the nature of the what Barth relayed to Jaheaerys about dragons. It’s easier to ride/tame a dragon than it is to hatch a dragon. And it may still boil down to genetics. Targaryen bastards can be found that can learn to ride a dragon. However, it may be very difficult for Targaryen bastards to hatch a dragon. If so then it may be because of the nature of Targaryen bastards, they almost all tend to be produced by Targaryen males. Dragon hatching may be something found along the female line. Or perhaps requires genetics from both the male and female line. Which brings us back to the necessity of incest. So perhaps, with this knowledge, Jaehaerys becomes less concerned about Braavos being able to hatch any dragons from the eggs they received. Although, on the other hand, you would think if that’s the case, Jaehaerys would have been more concerned about Saera whoring in Essos.

I’m not sure that the issue was that the eggs petrified. They don’t really have any proof that these particular eggs did petrify. Which is why I think that Barth may have been able to satisfy Jaheaerys that without the Targaryen bloodline, it was very unlikely that the eggs would hatch, even if they had not petrified. Dany’s miracle wasn’t really hatching dragon eggs, after a long period of dormancy. Her miracle was that she hatched dragon eggs that had well and truly petrified, and turned to stone.

Once again though, it’s hard to say. The timeline is that the dragon eggs are stolen, which causes quite a concern from the crown. Aerea returns from Valyria possibly, which prompts Septon Barth to earnestly start his studies on dragons. Around this time the Iron Bank in Braavos starts to make noises about the Crown repaying their debt. Septon Barth shares his newly gained knowledge of dragons with Jaheaerys. Jaehaerys gets word of Elissa’s newly made Braavosi ship. Jaheaerys pieces together that she probably sold the eggs to the Sealord. Jaheaerys sends Barth to Braavos to raise a stink about the dragon eggs. Barth does so, but when he returns from Braavos he returns without the eggs, but having used them as a bargaining chip, got the Iron Bank to forgive the Iron Throne’s debt. Barth seems well satisfied. Which might imply that although Barth pretty much confirms the Sealord has the eggs, he also seems fairly unconcerned about them hatching or the Sealords becoming dragon lords. Perhaps he is unconcerned because of his recent studies concerning their history. So it might very well be that ultimately Barth convinced Jaheaerys that the Braavosi would not be able to hatch the dragons or become dragon riders. ETA: I suppose this line of thinking may actually support your original point, that the practice of incest, didn’t occur because there was a necessary link between a Targaryen bloodline and a bloodline of their first dragon. Or perhaps the real reason for the practice of incest became lost through antiquity and simply became the custom of the dragon lords even though the subsequent generations may have been unaware of the real reason for it.

Lysa views what happened to her as feticide, which it certainly was. Since it was done without Lysa’s consent. I think anyone in Westeros would have had the same feeling in her place. As for consensual abortions, it certainly seems to be accepted among the nobility for the most part. It’s hard to say what the “peasants” would have thought of it, because we’re not really given their POV. As for the Faith, we don’t have much to go on, other than none of the lady’s septa’s seem to raise much of a stink about it. ETA: actually there is a bit about it from the High Sparrow: So at least here, we have someone from the Faith equating abortion with murder.

Maybe, maybe not. Jahaerys also knew how prevalent Targaryen bastards were. So if a group took enough trouble or expense to acquire dragon eggs, then they might take enough trouble or expense to track down Targaryen bastards and/or their progeny to help hatch them.

He didn’t. He said that there was separate canon for the books and the HBO shows. He said that if the first HBO series established the Valyrian dagger as canon for TPTWP prophecy, then the other HBO series should treat it as canon.

Yea, the Targaryens adopted Westerosi customs, religion, etc. much more so than they changed the customs or religions of Westeros. In fact, they seemed very disinterested in Westeros adopting their beliefs. Early on they just held themselves as above the norms of Westerosi culture. I guess you could argue there was an attempt to colonize the Iron Isles early on, by trying to impose more mainland Westerosi customs

I mean, I don’t know if they do consider it a breach or not. It wasn’t listed as a reason in any of the articles today. I’m not even sure if the Hamas group that took credit for it was the one in Gaza or not, the article isn’t terribly clear. ETA: Nevermind, it clearly is from a faction of Hamas in Gaza.

I think I posted this yesterday: https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/30/middleeast/hamas-jerusalem-bus-stop-shooting-intl/index.html I’m assuming that Israel probably considers this a breach in the cease fire?

I don’t see a permanent cease fire happening. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/30/middleeast/hamas-jerusalem-bus-stop-shooting-intl/index.html

Unfortunately every page just repeats, "all work and no play makes George a dull boy". Oh, and occasional scribbles trying to calculate future royalty checks from HBO.

So I do have one question, when/where was he originally planning on placing Tyrion “witness to incest”?

But, according to the outline it looks like Tyrion’s travels through the Sorrows was going to be after he was kidnapped by Jorah, so that implies that he may not have originally planned on any chapters covering Tyrion’s journey on the Shy Maid. ETA: Oh, I see what you’re saying. The four sub chaptersunder captured by Jorah? Are a reference to the earlier chapters.

I’m not sure that there were chapters with Tyrion on the Shy Maid at the point of this outline. If you look at Tyrion’s second chapter it starts with cliffhanger with Dany. It makes me think that Tyrion’s POV chapters start with him either already having arrived in Mereen or just having arrived in Mereen. Tyrion probably shows up with Young Griff and company at Mereen being sent by Illyrio to provide counsel for Dany. Tyrion’s journey with Young Griff might be encapsulated via flashback. Perhaps they first showed up in Dany’s first chapter, where she learns to ride a dragon, decides to call off her marriage to Hizdhar, and decides to go to Westeros. And the scene involving Young Griff is later substituted for the scene involving Quentyn who arrives in disguise as well. Or perhaps both envoys arrive at around the same time. Perhaps the whole fire vs mud debate we get in Barristan’s chapter was originally supposed to be Dany choosing Young Griff over Quentyn. Then the chapter shifts to Tyrion’s POV, where perhaps we get the backstory of his journeys with Young Griff through a flashback, and then Tyrion spying on Young Griff and Dany. Tyrion then gets kidnapped by Jorah and that’s when he later is brought to the Sorrows and Volantis and it’s Jorah who contracts greyscale in the Sorrows as opposed to Griff. Tyrion then gets with the Second Sons, and perhaps that’s who he ends up arriving in Westeros with. Or perhaps the whole Jorah thing was an alternate to cliffhanger with Dany, I’m not sure what the questions connote.

That would be a little anticlimactic, since he seemed not at all surprised by the notion back in ACOK. Perhaps it’s a scene that was adapted by the show. Tyrion witnesses Dany and Aegon aka Young Griff perhaps. The show later alters it to Dany and Jon Snow aka Aegon.

Also the disguise chosen by the Kindly Man seems awfully similar to Bloodraven's appearance in the Weirwood cave. So yes, I think there is an intentional parallel.

I think you’re imagining that. Maybe you’re thinking about this line: