Frey family reunion

Maybe. But isn't it pretty shitty that Ned lets him join the Night's Watch without first smartening him up as to his parents? After all, if Jon was mature enough to join the Night's Watch then he should have been mature enough to have handled who his parents were. I guess that could explain the guilt that Ned seems to feel. That he let him join the Night's Watch without truly knowing all of the facts involved.

I really wish you would. Especially panache. But seriously, that’s not the real reason it falls flat for me, as I think you know. @HugorHell put it well. Ned was obsessed with the promise Lyanna elicited from him. It echoed in his dreams and in his memories. References to promises and blood means only one thing for Ned. For the same reason that a bloody bed or a bed of blood falls flat for you if trying to reference something other than childbirth, a dream of blood and promises falls flat for me if they mean something other than Lyanna. That could be the reason. And it could be the Ned never got around to fulfilling all his promises to Lyanna. And perhaps that explains his guilt. I suppose. But you would think that once Ned allowed Jon to join the Night’s Watch without enlightening Jon, a promise may have been broken at that moment. However, I’m also open to the possibility that like Bran, Ned may have suppressed a traumatic event. We know that at when Lyanna died, after Ned made his promise, Ned could not remember what happened afterwards. Perhaps every time Lyanna’s promise starts to echo in Ned’s thoughts it’s Ned’s subconscious bubbling up.

Your argument certainly makes a logical sense, but it also falls flat. Every dream involving blood and promises Ned has had throughout the book involved Lyanna. Ned references a dream of blood and broken promises, a disturbing dream, and we are then made privy to a disturbing dream involving blood where Ned wakes up and immediately thinks of Lyanna forcing Ned to promise her something. You would have to believe that now this reference to a disturbing dream of blood and promises (albeit broken ones) now references another event, one that we are not made privy to. Then we have to couple it with the idea that Ned is still being haunted by something that Lyanna made him promise to her. It’s not keeping Jon safe from Robert, because, well mission accomplished there. Now we would have to believe that Ned is haunted by his inability to protect Jon because he’s in jail? Surely no one believed that Ned was going to nurse maid Jon his entire life. And out of all of Ned’s “children” Jon is certainly in the safest position at the time of Ned’s imprisonment. While Jon is tucked away at the Wall, Ned has one daughter in the hands of the Lannisters and one daughter missing. War is becoming imminent between the Lannisters and the Starks, a war which would undoubtably involve his son Robb. Jon by virtue of his role with the Night’s Watch shouldn’t be in any danger of that. The only takeaway is that the reason Ned is haunted by a promise he made to Lyanna, is that he made a promise to Lyanna that he did not keep. Perhaps his guilt is such that it survived his death and made its way into Bran’s dreams as well. It’s also worth considering that Ned’s sense of guilt about a promise he made to Lyanna is tied in with Winterfell. I think Ned subconsciously believes that he has angered his ancestors. The only question is has he angered them about a promise he kept to Lyanna or a promise he broke?

I understand your argument, I just think it falls flat. His dreams did include Robert and Littlefinger, but ultimately disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises? That’s his dream of the Lyanna and the winter crown. A disturbing dream involving Ned is later echoed by Bran: It’s clear that Ned is haunted by a promise he gave Lyanna on her death bed, a promise involving Jon. “Promise me Ned” isn’t echoed throughout the story because Ned is reminded of his promise to keep Jon safe from Robert. Because even after Robert’s death Ned continues to be haunted by that promise. And speaking of Robert, Robert’s death is a reminder that Ned may not always be truthful when he promises to do something for a dying loved one. Now compare that to Ned’s last dream of Lyanna: Lyanna elicited a promise from Ned that Ned could not do. And like son like father, Ned has suppressed an unpleasant truth.

You can certainly argue that Ned's disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises don't deal with Lyanna. I don't think it's a good argument, but it's certainly a defensible one. The reason I think it does have to do with Lyanna, is we are given a descrption of a disturbing dream shortly thereafter highlighting Ned cutting himself on the hidden thornes in Lyanna's wintery crown drawing blood. Eddard then awakes and immediately thinks of the promise that Lyanna exorted from Ned. However, I don't think you can legitimately seperate Ned's dream of blood from his dreams of broken promises. I dont' think that's a legitimate reading of that passage. Something about the promise he made to Lyanna is haunting Ned, and it's haunting him when other matters of greater significance should be taking precedence. Ned himself doesn't seem to understand why he's having these dreams and fears he is going mad.

And yet it seems very clear, that Ned's subconscious disagrees with him. One is not haunted in his dreams about promises fulfilled.

It's a dream about both. Because one of the promises that Lyanna elicits from Ned concerns what Ned retrieved from the tower. My argument is that Ned retrieved Jon from the tower of joy. Ned then travels to Starfall to return Jon to Lyanna. Lyanna in her death bed forces Ned to promise something about Jon. This dream is not about Ned's friends, this is about Jon and any promise that Lyanna elicited from Ned about Jon. Ned continues to be haunted by this dream up through his time in the black cells, where he dreamed of blood and broken promises. My take away is that Ned made a promise to Lyanna about Jon, a promise that he broke.

The connection is what Ned would have retrieved from the tower of joy and the sacrifices he made to retrieve it along with the promise that Lyanna elicited from Ned. This is the connection, the promise had to do with what Ned retrieved from the tower. The travel time between the battle at the tower of joy and Starfall (if indeed that is where Lyanna lay) is meaningless to Ned, his dream just directs him to the high points (low points?) of those events.

I guess my main issue with using the app or even the SSM as evidence of events that have no been addressed in the books is that it seems to go against the fundamental nature of George’s story. There is no omniscient narrator. Everything we learn is through the lens of a POV character. And with this the reader is given the limitations of what the character actually knows as opposed to what the character has been told, and we even have to be concerned with the character’s own biases and blind spots. Is the character always truthful with themselves? The app serves as an omniscient narrator in a way, setting forth some things as unassailable fact when the story itself intentionally fails to do so.

If indeed Rhaegar was trying to fulfill the prince that was promised prophecy and if the prophecy also encompassed the hatching of dragons, the lesson of Summerhall was that you don’t attempt this in an inhabited castle. And if that ritual included one or more blood sacrifices, well let’s just say that some things aren’t done in polite company. No I would think that this would have to be done in a remote location. And if you are waiting on additional parties to to help perform the rituals, one or more from Dorne (cough Oberyn) and one or more from the Reach (cough Marwyn), then a location within the Prince’s Pass also makes sense. As for your point about it being close to Robert’s territory and lacking resources, that’s an interesting take for someone who is a proponent of Lyanna being secreted there for a significant period of time. Suffice it to say, I don’t think there was an intention for the parties to stay any length of time. You wouldn’t need any significant resources. Once everything was in order, then all the parties from both Dorne and the Reach would meet at the toj. ETA: Sorry I meant to respond to one more point. I’m not assuming that Ned would have learned of the toj from Lyanna. I mused above that perhaps the knowledge could have come from one of the Kingsguards if any felt conflicted from carrying through these orders from either Rhaegar or perhaps Aerys. But I think it’s more probable that Ned would have learned it from one of the peripheral principals to this plan. Perhaps one of Oswell’s siblings or more likely Ashara Dayne. I guess I’m not familiar with Ran’s theory to comment. But as for the theory that Ned travelled to Starfall to put people off the scent. No, I can’t see that. It’s far too risky and arduous for such a small payoff, when there would be so many other options. It also wouldn’t explain why Ned shuts down all talk of Jon being Ashara’s son. You would think that Ned would encourage such talk if his motivation was to put people off the scent. Ned would only have made the trip for a very important purpose. And reuniting a mother with her son, and Ned reuniting with his sister would certainly serve.

That's probably your best argument against my theory. But it also assumes that the Kingsguard believed this order would be insane. That's a tough nut to figure. Stannis isn't insane. At least I think he isn't. But he starts to come around to Melisandre's plan to sacrifice Edric. And he does it because he believes it's for the benefit of the realm. Could Rhaegar have also come to the same conclusion? And if Rhaegar came to that conclusion could his fellow Kingsguards members have followed suit. We know that the Hightowers seem to be somewhat involved in the arcane. So Gerold might be very familiar with the idea and perhaps even the necessity of a blood sacrifice. Especially if the Prince that was Promised prophecy was intertwined with the need to bring back the dragons. To stay with the Stannis analogy. Davos is very devoted to Stannis. And he continues to be very devoted to him even after Stannis agrees to have Edric sacrificed. He somehow is able to seperate that decision with his devotion to Stannis. But I think your point is valid. Even if the Kingsguards truly believed what they were doing was for the good of not only the kingdom, but for the survival of humanity, it seems unlikely that Eddard would have understood. At least not understood to the point of believing Arthur was the finest knight he ever knew. It's however also possible, that the Kingsguards were given a directive that they could not have honorably disobeyed. So their best course of action was death before dishonor. (Which makes me wonder if one of the Kingsguards was also the one who cued Eddard into the location of the TOJ.) ETA: One final muse on Ned and the qualities he expects from a knight. Ned truly must have thought that Aerys was a monster. After what he did to his brother and father. He also seems to equate fighting Aerys with preventing the murder of children. Yet Ned likewise thinks that Jaime is loathsome because Jaime violated his oath and killed Aerys. Now would Ned have thought more of Jaime if Jaime merely stepped aside and allowed Aerys to be killed? Or does Ned believe that Jaime should have fulfilled his vows and died to protect Aerys despite how monstrous Aerys was?

Under your argument, he should have just come out and asked them to surrender. Why beat around the bush. If you feel the need to find a subtext, let me suggest one. Ned is suggesting that their activities should be a violation of the Kingsguard duties. They weren’t fighting at the Trident. They weren’t protecting the King or the royal family. They weren’t with the last of the royalist army, and they didn’t leave to Dragonstone to protect the heir. Their retort is that they don’t flee, instead they swore an oath. In other words, as Kingsguards we swore an oath and we have to see it to the end.

Sorry, I don’t see the distinction. You are also assuming a subtext that I’m not sure exists. He never asks them to surrender. Instead what he says, is that he has been looking for them. First at the Trident, then at King’s Landing, and then at Storm’s End.

You can make the same argument if Ned was coming to rescue Lyanna, no? ETA: but to more specifically adress your point, I don't think there was any great mystery of where the child was. Presumably the child was in the tower of joy. It was also tacitly agreed by the nature of the conversation that the Kingsguards were not going to hand over the child without a fight to the death. Because they swore an oath. I think the conversation with the Kingsguard may (and I must stress only may) suggest that Ned may have been specifically looking for these Kingsguards before the Trident.

See my post above. Jon was meant to be a sacrifice to fulfill the prince that was promised prophecy. The Kingsguards were tasked to see the events through. This was the oath they swore. The reason why the tower of joy had to be a fight to the death. Ned's journey to the tower of joy was to keep this from happening, which is why speed was of the essence. It is also why he only took a small group of people that he could absolutely trust, all people who had loyal ties to either Ned, Brandon, and/or Lyanna. Presumably Lyanna gave birth to Jon at Starfall. If Rhaegar's main motivation was to see that Lyanna's pregnancy was successful, he had to take her to a place that could care for her and a place that was not easily accessible by Robert or Ned. And a place with people that he could trust. The tower of joy location was picked because of its geographic location. A halfway point between Dorne and the Reach a place accessible for parties in both locations. If so, then I believe that other parties were meant to join with the kingsguards. Ned beat them to the location. Ned doesn't come into contact with his sister until after the events at the tower of joy. Someone learned of Lyanna's location and the events planned for the tower of joy. This information was relayed to Ned.

That's my thought. GRRM may be giving us a bit of a road map to fulfilling TPTWP prophecy in Stannis' storyline. Substitute Jon for Edric and Rhaegar for Melisandre and you get an idea of where I'm going with this. The Kingsguards swore an oath to see the events through. It also explains why the battle for the tower of joy was always going to be a battle to the death. Ned got wind of the plan, and took a small hand picked group of very loyal northerners to retrieve Lyanna's son.

If Lyanna was at Starfall, I think the sequence is: 1. Ned learns from some source that Lyanna gave birth at Starfall, and that Lyanna's child was taken from her to the tower of joy. 2. Ned travels with a guide who knows the location of the tower of joy. I would guess Howland. 3. Ned rescues Jon from the tower of joy and brings Jon back to Starfall to be reunited with Lyanna. Returning Dawn was a cover story for the reason for his trip to Starfall. 4. The death bed scene with Lyanna occurred after Ned arrived at Starfall with Jon. No extra step, no double travel, and it explains why Ned would take such a dangerous trip through enemy territory with a baby in tow, as opposed to getting the babe to safety and then sending Dawn back to Starfall via ship. It also does away with the very ackward scenario of Ned travelling a great distance through the mountains carrying his dead sister. Really the "return of Dawn" makes no sense. It doesn't rise to a level of importance for Ned to travel through the Mountains with a baby and with a dead sister. Dawn could have always been sent with a formal peace party at a later date.

Either way, Ned could have gotten to Riverrun by crossing the twins or crossing the Trident by the Inn and then taking the River Road to Riverrun. Either way presents an interesting issue. Did Walder Frey allow their crossing at the Twins? Or why didn't House Darry try to prohibit any crossing at the Trident? And then we have the riddle as to how House Arryn was able to bring his army from the Vale. That would also imply that he rode through Darry lands. Perhaps Darry's army had already left and joined up with Connington before the respective armies criss crossed their lands.

Not necessarily. Communications could have come back and forth between Eddard and Hoster which allowed for them to have coordinated their efforts, without Eddard first going to Riverrun. But it would mean that Eddard probably would have crossed by the Inn of the Crossroads. Which seems that House Darry would have been asleep at the wheel, being such loyalists.

This bit is possible, though unlikely. At least unlikely for it to have happened after Rhaegar and company left for the Battle of the Trident. It left Jaime as the only Kingsguard with Aerys. Barristan, Darry, and Martell off with Rhaegar to the Trident. And Hightower, Dayne, and Whent, umm, "far away". Jaime specifically indicates that after standing guard for Aerys' and Rhaella's night of passion, he didn't see Rhaella again, until the hooded Rhaella left for Dragonstone one, umm, morning. It seems unlikely that there would have been other nights of passion involving the king that Jaime would have been unaware of. Especially since Jaime would have been tasked with knowing of the king's coming and goings at all times.

Oh, yes. Guilty as charged there. ETA: I'll try not to be flippant on this. I think this mystery is too easily solved. Considering just how subtle George can be, I don't think this is a terribly subtle mystery. Reasonable minds can certainly differ on this. I am reminded that this was Paris' reaction as well to the idea that Rhaegar was Jon's dad. That it was too obvious, that George doesn't do obvious. I lean towards agreeing with George's wife on this point. Now granted, I'm not convinced of this. My reading of his other stories didn't really make me come to the conclusion that George would not create some variation on the tired hidden Prince motif. It's certainly possible. And like I said, taking everything we know now, it's hard to bet on another theory other than R + L.

I agree. I would be very surprised if she didn't turn out to be his mother.

There are two types of readers. Readers that superficially read a story probably won't pick up Jon being the son of Lyanna. More careful readers, and especially readers of fantasy who have been programmed to accept the concept of the "hidden prince" will pick up on these various clues and will certainly come to the conclusion that Lyanna and Rhaegar are Jon's parents. George is certainly well aware of this. George even wrote about this in the tale of the Sealord's Cat. George has gone on record that he wanted to write a tale that would surprise readers like his mom. Someone who could always figure out the plot twists in a story. George has also indicated that he has specifically not laid all of his cards on the table. In other words we haven't been given all the pertinent information. I think R + L = J is certainly a safe theory based on the info we've been given so far. I also think that George hasn't told us everything we need to know, to come to the conclusion that this is the only possibility.

Yes, and hopefully for the last time. This is a good deduction. It is a good inference. It is not a confirmation. The question that has to be asked, is if GRRM is playing this fair. Is he trying to subtly lead us to the right conclusion or the wrong conclusion. I agree that both what Mirri said and what Aeron said are specifically to get us to think of a bloody bed or a bed of blood to equate with childbirth. Now whether Ned would have understood that fact, I don't know. It's very possible that Ned was just describing the condition of Lyanna's bed at the time of her death. But here is the main problem with the idea of Ned coming across Lyanna shortly after she gave birth to Jon. If we are going to take GRRM's statement of Ned being born 8 to 9 months before Dany seriously, then we can safetly rule out Ned's deathbed meeting with Lyanna as occurring around Jon's birth. At least if we assume that this conversation took place at the time of the battle of the tower of joy or sometime afterwards. We are told that at the time of the rebbellion Aerys only visited Rhaella's bed chamber when he burned someone. After Jaime stood guard over Rhaella's (or at least presumably Rhaella) rape he didn't see her again until the morning she left for Dragonstone. So assuming this is Dany's conception, the conception had to take place prior to the Battle of the Trident because Jon Darry was standing next to Jaime. George has pretty much used a fortnight (two weeks) as the standard of time it took to travel to the area around the fork. That's how long it took Ned to get to King's Landing from the battle, and that's how long it took Cat and Rodrik to travel to the Inn at the crossroads. So at the bare minimum a month had to elapse between the time that Chelsted was burned and that Dany was allegedly conceived and the time it took for Ned to get to King's Landing. So then we can surmise that Jon's birth should have taken place at the minimum two weeks prior to the Battle of the Trident up to the time that Ned arrived at King's Landing. But the tower of joy doesn't happen immediately after that time period. Ned leaves King's Landing to continue fighting the wars in the South. Then Ned makes his way to Storm's End, presumably with Ned's army. King's Landing to Storm's End is approximately the same distance that King's Landing is to the Trident. So a two week journey at the minimum. And then however, long it took for Ned to learn of the location of the tower of joy and to travel there. If you look at the map, as a crow flies, it is at least twice the distance between Storm's End and the tower of joy as it was between King's Landing and the Fork. And there are no major roads between Storm's End and the tower of joy and there is a mountain range to traverse. Even if they decided to sail to Wyls or some other locatio in Dorne to get there, the naval travel would be quite extensive because you are having to sail around some significant penninsulas. Even then you have to find a place to port, and still travel a long distance through mountains to get to the tower of joy. We can also use another time period to realize that the length of time between the Sack and the battle at the tower of joy had to be significant. Ned said that the war had raged close to a year when the Sack occurred. It was also said by at least two POV's that the Seige of Storm's End lasted close to a year. But the Seige of Storm's End did not begin until after Arryn called his banners, after the battle at Gulltown occurred, after Robert travelled from Gulltown to Storm's End. After Robert called his banners, after Robert engaged in the battle at Summerhall. After Robert and his army travelled to Ashford, after the Battle at Ashford, and after the length of time it took the Martell's to travel to Storm's End to begin the Siege. We also have to factor the length of time it took for the Redwyne fleet to travel around Dorne to get to Storm's End. This is roughly the same length of time that it should have taken after for Ned to have ended the Siege after the Sack of King's Landing. So not an inconsiderable length of time. And then Ned and company would have still had to have travelled to the tower of joy. So unless the Kingsguards let Lyanna lie in her afterbirth for a minimum of two months after Jon's birth, Ned could not have come upon Lyanna immediately after giving birth to Jon. Now if we choose to ignore GRRM's comments about the time period between Dany's birth and Jon's birth I'm fine with that. But we also have to ignore it when it comes to exluding other theories about Jon's birth. Personally I've never been too comfortable about relying too heavily on Martin's fan interactions because until he commits it to writing it should not be considered, in my opinion. In addition we also have to assume that the reader has a good handle as to when Dany was born. Personally, I think we may have no idea as to when Dany was born. But I understand that's a debate for another time.

You are correct. It is embarrassing to engage in a conversation with you. And pointless. So I think I’ll stop.