Frey family reunion

I never really understood the saying, “have your cake and eat it too”. After all what else are you going to do with a cake?

Yes, I understand that. I’m specifically responding to this theory of making Jon “legitimate” through a polygamous relationship. I’m referring to @Mithras since he seems to hold the show in such high regard. But yes, I understand that people have been straining to make Jon a legitimate heir to the Iron Throne for quite some time. What I suggest is that you take a good hard look at Jon’s story arc, the arc that the author has taken five books to build upon. Jon’s internal conflict is his oath to the Wall vs his desire for Winterfell. It’s a conflict that the author has continued to highlight up until Jon’s untimely “demise”. To believe that Jon within the course of two books is going to cast aside that conflict to take up a claim for the Iron Throne seems very unlikely at this point. And then we have the practicalities to consider. What faction has a vested interest in promoting Jon as a claimant to an Iron Throne. Which is why the fictitious legitimacy from a secret marriage no one knows about is worth less than the paper it’s not written on.

Hmm, baseless opinion with no support from the books. Kind of like how Rhaegar, Elia, or Lyanna would be in any way in favor of a polygamous marriage? But regardless, if you are so invested in Jon being the "legitimate" son of Rhaegar, I understand the need to try and concoct a polygamous relationship. After all the alternative is the one that the HBO abomination gave us, which was Rhaegar annulling his marriage to Elia (preposterous) and naming his child with Lyanna Aegon Targaryen, basically disinheriting his first born son who he named the prince that was promised (at least in the books). So at the very least you seem to realize how fundamentally flawed the show's version was in their attempt to make Jon a "legitimate" Targaryen. But for those of you believing that the HBO show has somehow confirmed that Jon is the "legitimate" son of Rhaegar Targaryen let me suggest an alternative. That D & D are talentless hacks. And as an example of their "hackery", keep in mind that the show decided that the books contained too many characters. One of the characters left on the chopping room floor, was Young Griff, aka Aegon Targaryen, who was purported to be the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen. The noble lad who Varys champions as the person best suited to take the Iron Throne. Sound familiar? It should, because that was the character that Kit Harrington played in addition to playing Jon Snow. The show merely merged Jon Snow with Young Griff. Which is why it appeared that Kit was teleporting back and forth from the North to the South. He was in essence playing two characters at the same time. Which is why we get the cringey reveal of Jon Snow as Aegon Targaryen through Gilley's reading of a septon's journal. And the even cringier confirmation through Bran TV. So perhaps Dany needs someone purporting to have a more legitimate claim to the Iron Throne to her own to further her own internal conflict. Fortunately for the reader we don't need Jon Snow to play that role because we have Young Griff. Hence, there is no reason for us to try and contort the plot and the backstory to try and shoe horn Jon into the role of a legitimate claimant.

I think this is the fan fiction of a 13 year old girl.

You guys crack me up.

I think the takeaway is that Varys was writing multiple letters to spread the word about Jon’s claim to the throne, presumably to gather support for him to challenge Dany. Not sure about the significance of the rings. Maybe he just knew he was to be executed and wanted to remove his valuables first?

My point wasn’t really to debate the merits of primogeniture, but instead to highlight that by making Jon the better ruler and giving him the better birthright is just a little too serendipitous in my opinion. It also renders Varys storyline completely meaningless. In the show it appears that he is literally just leeching on the Targaryen who happens to have the better claim to the throne by birth right. It’s literally the opposite message that he conveys at the end of ADWD.

Well, what compelled Dany to invade Westeros and King’s Landing with an army of Unsullied, Dothraki, and dragons was that she believed her birthright was stolen from her. And it also follows that being a king or queen via birthright, can end up with a very awful ruler, who can only be deposed by war and blood. In the books, it’s apparent that Varys has helped raise Young Griff specifically to be a ruler. And it’s very possible that Young Griff’s “rightful claim to the throne” is very dodgy, perhaps a mummer’s trick to justify putting him on the throne. Now in the shows, we don’t have a Young Griff and it’s very possible that Jon is also assuming Young Griff’s role. So instead of Varys raising a claimant and creating a fiction to put him on the throne, Varys just happens to stumble into a better ruler, who he had no hand in creating, who also just happens to have the best claim to the throne. Not exactly a mummer’s trick anymore. So basically Varys entire storyline is wasted. His only plot was ruined in Essos, when Viserys was killed, and he has just happened to jump aboard anyone who has come by with a claim to the throne. No plotting, no tricks.

It would have made a bit more sense, if she had been convinced by someone that the ringing of the bells was a sign that the city was rallying against her as opposed to surrendering.

I kind of agree with this.

This one is a tough call. As a stand alone episode, I quite enjoyed it. Probably the closest vision to what Martin probably considers the horrors of war. Unfortunately looking at the series as a whole, the show runners failed miserably in leading up to what happened in this episode. Dany’s 180 was just too jarring and too out of left field. Making Jon as the alternative is also a bit too pat. At least as it currently stands. Varys’ lesson to Tyrion early on is that power is a mummer’s trick. What really matters is who people are willing to follow. It shouldn’t matter as to birthright, instead what should matter is who has the best traits of leadership. Yet, the argument for Jon is that he has the better claim, because Rhaegar was his father. It’s just a happy coincidence then, that the better ruler also just so happens to have the better claim to the Iron Throne. The whole things just seems off to me. Perhaps we’ll learn something next week, that will disabuse me of this. And yes, I think that the one and only prophecy that the show bothered to get into, was the whole Volonquar thing. I guess that Jaime did have his hands somewhat close to Cersei’s neck as the ceiling caved in.

I agree, the best episode of the season. I gave it a 3.

Maybe, but that’s not how I took the conversation. It seemed that Tyrion made an allusion about Jon, and Varys picked up on it and asked Tyrion how many people knew Jon’s secret.

Was there a previous scene where Varys overheard someone talking about Jon’s parentage? In his conversation with Tyrion, it’s pretty apparent that he already knew Jon’s secret. I suppose he’s a spymaster and all, so it really isn’t a surprise, but I’m just wondering if the show had a scene setting up how Varys became aware of it.

Yea, I think you’re right. I was hoping we’d get a zombie Lyanna crawl out of her crypt screeching how Rhaegar was a selfish lover.

Ha, you’re right. I’m pretty sure the book Arya threw to distract the wights was a half finished manuscript of Winds of Winter

I would have given it less than a 1 if allowed. This show is so aggressively dumb. It’s become an absolute travesty of the source material.

Then you should sue to get a writing credit for that show, because it's probably where D & D got this idea from.

You do realize that none of this dribble is being written by George anymore?

I can't believe I've never noticed that before.

This is a very good catch, but I'd give it its own thread so people can discuss this fully.

Ha, that's a great catch and pretty hysterical at the same time.

GRRM has sprinkled in some very subtle references to Greek mythology especially regarding Dornish and Targaryen characters. Dany using the promise of her dragons to obtain her Unsullied army, bears a slight resemblance to Cadmus' sowing dragon's teeth into the ground from whence an army sprang forth. As a result Cadmus and his wife are ultimately turned into dragons. A similar tale is told of Jason of Jason and the Argonauts fame (who comes across Harpies in his wanderings as well).

The main reason I suggested dividing the thread up is to streamline the threads a little bit. It's become apparent to on second and third rereads that the sheer number of references and homages he puts in his books are massive. Also I'm personally more interested in the number of both overt and subtle references and homages to mythological tales within the books, and I think a thread incorporating these references deserves to stand on its own.

Now that this thread is reaching 60 unwieldy pages, has there been any thought about restarting this topic in three different threads? One thing that I've noticed is Martin's homages range the gamut from actual historical events to mythology/folklore to literature and even a smattering of pop culture. One thread can be devoted to actual history, another thread to mythology and folklore while a third thread can reference his literary and pop culture references. Just a thought anyway to make this topic more reader friendly.