Veltigar

Yep, meating the Tyrells head on would be suicide. They'll definitely use an ambush or magic to bring the Tyrells down.

I still think that Margaery is going to die, Faegon can't marry her since he would already be wed to Arianne. But she could always get trapped, its a possibility. However Cersei will never be controlled by Faegon, apart from Tyrion every main branche Lannister has to be put down in order to stabilize Faegons throne. He just can't afford to let Myrcella, Tommen, Cersei and Jaime live. Jaime because he murdered his grandfather and Cersei and the children because they are a direct threat to his claim on the throne.

:bowdown: Good call about that quote, it does indeed strengthen my point. Thanks :cheers:

One of the SSM of GRRM contained that statement. Sadly, I don't know which one. They have to, they can't afford to sit on their asses while the Ironborn are out there plundering the lands and since the Ironborn have the advantage of mobility the Tyrells need to outnumber them in order to defeat them. As long as the Ironborn remain there they'll put a serious damper on any trade, they kill smallfolk and destroy crops, the Tyrells just can't afford to let the Ironborn roam free. History has also proven that once the Ironborn are able to settle, they are well-nigh impossible to remove. The Tyrells are forced to attack straight away in full force. On top of that you need to take into account that the Tyrell force at the moment is kept pinned down by a much smaller force, they need to finish the Ironborn off, so that they can use their manpower on their other fronts. The Tyrells will also underestimate the Ironborn, as you pointed out, they are the shining pinacle of chivalry. How on earth could they ever lose from such a ragged band of outlaws and wannabe pirates. So, they'll be less inclined to take the possibility of losing their battle into account, a little bit like the French knights thought that they couldn't possibly lose from the army of crafstmen and peasants at the The Battle of the Golden Spurs and yet the French lost. Also the Ironborn won't attack the Tyrells when they are on land. As stated in AFFC, the Tyrell army will be at its weakest while crossing the river (or less lickely the bay), and that's exactly what the Ironborn will do. They'll force the Tyrells to cross the river, for instance by attacking Oldtown and than they'll come down on them. Again I refer to the knightley arrogance argument. And although I don't think they'll leave Highgarden as poorly defended as WF, it will certainly not be fully manned and since Highgarden is a weaker holding than WF the Ironborn will be able to capture it, especially since no one expects that the Tyrells lost the battle. The Ironborn will probably lose some of their manpower taking it, but the cost would be considered very low for the prize they acquired namely the spoils of Highgarden. Never really got that theory. Euron is still in Westeros, Big Vic has the dusky woman at his side who is clearly Eurons agent. Remember when the three of them got in the cabin together, Moqorro said that Vics death was in the room and trust me he wasn't talking about the wound on Vics hand. The dusky woman is probably Eurons main accomplice, he doesn't need to be there himself. If your scenario comes true and they defeat the Ironborn than they are safe once more. So why wouldn't they leave.

That would be a waste of the subtle comment of the GC member about the fact that they still have friends in the realm. Personally, my money is on Margaery being convicted (After Ungregor destroys Lancel or whoever they choose to fight against him, Cersei will be free to plot once more). Mace unwilling to let his daughter be killed (especially since the Ironborn victory would cost Garlan and/or Willas their lives) tries to save her. A huge fight brakes out within the city, a lot of members of the faith (and civilians) get massacred. After this the Tyrells will be considered persona non grata, the Faith will declare for Faegon and most if not all of the remaining Tyrell supporters will flock to Faegon. A fight within the walls of Kingslanding would also be beneficial to other plotlines, Cersei could loose another child, possibly by the hand of the Dornish who are certainly going to do their best to stir things up in and around Kingslanding. Also, when the Dornishmen attack Cersei and her children they'll have a face-off with ser Robert Strong and although I'm fairly sure that they'll all perish in the attempt, they'll probably rip his helmet off, showing what lies underneath it and thus confirming that Ser Robert strong is in fact Ungregor and when that news reaches Sandor (where ever he is by then) he'll have no choice but to confront the thing that once was his brother

First off Highgarden is more like a palace than a real castle (not saying that it's undefendable but it's easier to take than fore example Storms End). Secondly, Garlan and company will ride out in full strength, they'll fall into an Ironborn ambush. Their army will be massacred, and they wouldn't have left many men behind to man their castle, since Ironborn aren't known for attacking a well-manned castle as you pointed out. But these are no ordinary Ironborn, Euron is a game changer (as he has proven already by conjuring up the plan to destroy the Lannister fleet during the first Greyjoy rebellion) and he'll prove that Ironborn don't sow by trampling the Rose. No, because than Sam would be save and he would just sit there in the citadel forging his chain. If the Ironborn take Oldtown they'll take it with their ships, they won't use a pincer movement or something like that. Sam will flee over land possibly to Horn Hill. That all depends on the timeline. If Dany stays away long enough (or if they hear that she has taken Volantis or something like that) and the Redwyne's have defeated the Ironborn then they could turn back. The Dragon argument: 1) Will Dany be in full control of her dragons? 2) If the Redwyne's attack Dany's fleet then casualties in the first minutes of the battle would be steep for the Redwyne's, but once they've clashed with Dany's fleet the dragons are useless because in order to burn the Redwyne's she'll have to burn lots of her own people and friendly fire isn't her style. Also, when Dany crosses the shivering sea she'll use every vessel available. Most of those won't be warships and a lot of ships are going to be manned by fairly green crews, while the Redwyne fleet is made up off professional sailors and considerably more equiped. Mixe those two up and Dany's fleet will suffer greatly. There are better reasons (sacrifizing theon to a hart trea for exemple) + Euron still has a lot of enemies on the Islands. There are the Drowned God fanatics, Victarions men, the reader who isn't fond of him and lots of captains probably share Asha's worries. If Euron defeats the Tyrells he'll become a true king, the Ironborn will rise higher than ever... which will make their fall even more painfull. Eurons ultimate goal stands or falls with Dany IMO. The Tyrells are just obstacles in his way. Eurons people will taste grandeur only to suffer massively later on, and than Asha/Theon are going to resurface.

The Dornish aren't worth shit if they are forced to fight a victorious Tyrell army. Besides you must think ahead. Faegon still wants to marry Dany, he needs a reason to marry Arianne. If the Tyrell suffer the massive blow that I'm predicting than Faegon gets that reason. If he acquires the Dornish army he will be able to jump into the power vacuum left behind by the defeat of the Tyrells. Also by expanding his army in this way, he'll become a beacon for the disillussioned Reach men. Those Reach men aren't going to submit to the Ironborn (who can't reach them if they stay far enough from the rivers and sea) and with the Tyrells severely weakened they'll flock to their saviour Faegon.

Then we seem to disagree. As I argued before in my own WoW prediction thread (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/80773-my-personal-predictions-for-the-first-part-of-the-wow/) a massive Tyrell defeat is what the story needs right now. An Ironborn victory will work as a catalyst for almost every storyline south of the neck. To list a few examples 1) A Tyrell defeat will be the perfect opportunity for Faegon to become a major player (as of now he is fairly harmless), it will compell him to act and fill the gap that the Tyrells left by showing that he is the military wonderboy who'll save the realm 2) It would put further stress on the Tyrells if they loose Garlan, Willas and their castle. The stake of Margaery's trial would go up quite significantly 3) An Ironborn victory would oblige Sam to leave Oldtown 4) If the Redwyne fleet gets destroyed than the whole eastern shore of Westeros lies open for Dany's landing 5) etc.

I don't agree with the bold part. Euron very much anticipates the hostility of the Tyrells, he's even counting on it. The confrontation between Ironborn and Reachmen will not end well for the Tyrells IMO, Euron has a plan and the Tyrells are falling for it.

Yeah, I do think that Vic is dumb, but that doesn't mean he isn't a good warrior (e.g. Tyrion describes the Mountain as a dumb animal but with great warrior instincts), sailor and commander. In real life you often meet people who are considered to be very smart, like for instance a brilliant mathimatician, who turn out to be absolutely brilliant in their fielth but when you ask who the President is or what the capital of Austria is they don't know what your talking about. Vic is one of those guys imo.

I think you are right, but I'm still hoping for Dany to pull a Nymeria on Mereen and burning the city to the ground when she leaves for Westeros. :hat:

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: The Red Lamb, by far the coolest new character in ADWD, glad to see the lad getting some screentime Overall Great chapters :smoking: