DarkAndFullOfTurnips

How is she alive, why is she alive, etc. It can all be done in one scene truthfully but I think exposing the BwB a bit more would make it work better overall. Plus having some talk about this new female leader of the BwB before finding out who it is would all make for better story telling in the long run.

I'm voting 8. Points deducted for Shae trying to stab Tyrion and the skelly zombies looking a bit stupid.Also wasn't a fan of the very rushed Jaime and Tyrion scene when two episodes ago they made an awkwardly long scene about the meaning of life/death.

1. Completely agree here. Ghost should at the very least have gone North with Jon. I think the writers often forget Ghost exists. 2. I think the distance was supposed to be greater, but what was the NW supposed to do? Leave Castle Black and fight them? Jon notes they want to draw them out, but it did seem a bit close to me as well.

What are you talking about? Jon just shot Tormund in the leg and kicked him in the gut, a man who he was supposed to be aligned with once. Jon is much more outwardly outspoken against his superiors in the show. If anything it will be less surprising on the show than it was in the book. Slynt is also way more of a bitch on the show, and they would never shy from a beheading. If you're going to complain at least try to root it in some reality or logic. Having him captured and defeated could work. All the free folk want is to get behind the wall and to safety, and while "killing" Mance does work better, it also creates more tension between the free folk and Stannis/NW. It's just way too campy to show them burning Mance on screen and then suddenly have him show up in a scene with Melissandre and say "Haha, you fooled you!" This isn't Scooby Doo.

They're probably going to skip that whole thing and just negotiate with Tormund rather than have Val go and fetch him (I'm guessing Val is cut). They might just altogether skip the glamour thing since it's kind of silly anyways, and on screen it would look really foolish if Mance just turns up after being burned and says "Oh yeh that wasn't me that burned lolz was a trick. Gotcha!"

Well I suppose that sort of throws a wrench into the whole "Only tasteless people would like this episode" when both Elio and GRRM approve.

There's tons of drama and emotion in the episode, moreso than action, to be honest.

I don't see why it has to be filler just because it's not the final scene. That would be like calling it filler in the books, or calling the RW filler. Something is filler when it's just extending the timeline with ultimately pointless plots until the major plots are ready to be set (See the majority of AFFC and ADWD).

It's a good point, and I didn't think about it until people said it on here, that Stannis riding up makes this Blackwater Pt. 2. Honestly GRRM does the "In the nick of time" thing a bit too often so there's a chance that the Stannis ending would've seemed a bit convenient and too similar for non-readers.

He's also kidding himself if he thinks GRRM has a sudden change of heart and had Stannis become a badass warrior that suddenly leads a van and goes into battle without a helmet, gutting his way through guards and being an overall badass. That's basically the opposite of how GRRM wrote Stannis, but yeah sure GRRM is the sole reason why that episode was great.

Well, wouldn't it be weird to just have 100,000 people gathering around watching the wall when they weren't planning on attacking, like they were just watching a movie? I suppose it would've been nice to show a GIANT group of wildlings but ultimately we don't see that in the book until Jon goes to treat with Mance anyways. Stannis didn't lose any glory yet. Like Ran said, if you read the book you know this is exactly how it happens. The first siege is stopped by the NW, but inevitably they can no longer hold it, and Stannis comes and saves the day. At least wait until next week before claiming they took anything away from him...It hasn't happened yet!

Can you try to add anything constructive or worthy of actual debate or are you going to litter this thread with pointless jabs at people whose opinions differ from your own? I know people are doing the same thing to you, but I haven't gone through a single page of the forum today without seeing your childish replies that add absolutely nothing to the conversation, but rather turn this board from intelligent discussion to pathetic badgering. I can see the frustration, but apparently even that takes a LOT of money to make, and they do mention that Mance has tons more giants and mammoths at his disposal and that this was a minor attack to test strength. I think people wanted the 100k vs NW battle in this episode (understandable, big battles are epic), but frankly that's not even how it happens in the books so I'm a bit confused about how people teeter from wanting purity to wanting something completely different.

Yeh, like the Red Wedding was so underwhelming in aSoS because it happened 2/3 of the way through. Sigh. It's the single most vivid event for me in all five books for me and surprisingly GRRM didn't need to end the book on it to make it powerful.

What acting was "Bad" specifically? Because pretty much everyone did a good job from my perspective.

I don't understand this. You know Mance only sent a small force to test the wall yet you simultaneously complain that there weren't 100k of them. The point is that even a small force almost broke through and defeated the NW, so they'll need a miracle to get through it, hence Jon going to assassinate Mance. The dialogue makes it clear, a preliminary force almost wins so they're going to get smashed if someone doesn't try to take out Mance, and this will just set up the future events that obviously I won't discuss in a no spoiler thread.

What exactly do Grenn and Pyp do in the books that as a show producer you would think "We need to keep paying these guys?" The siege needed to have meaningful casualties, and those two characters do basically nothing later on. In aDwD they're basically forgotten, and I don't think Thorne is dead since it looks like he just sustained a non-lethal injury. I do agree that they need more notable NW characters, but they need to be officers to setup Jon's tension and difficulties as LC.

I voted 8 at first watch, then rewatched it and voted 9. Without the expectation that Stannis was coming I just evaluated the episode as a whole. I thought they did everything well, but it fell short of a 10 for me because it was quite short and I think they could've used that time to show anything really, not necessarily Stannis. I really enjoyed: - Jon telling Grenn to hold the gate and Grenn's response - Thorne vs. Tormund fight - Thorne's speech and general badassery - Ygritte's reaction to Jon's smile - Pyp dying in Sam's arms - The exploration of fear/doubt from the NW boys about not being ready to die/ready for war - Edd in command - Tormund talking about fucking a bear - Donal Noye nod with the hammer to the skull - "There's no such thing as giants" - Aemon and Sam's talk...I wanted him to go on! - The scythe Things I didn't care for: - Olly killing Ygritte felt a bit too...cheesy? I don't know, at this point aSoIaF has ruined any predictable sentimental events for me, so this one felt a bit too much. - The repeated notch, draw, loose commands...Just tell them to fire at will! - Sam went a bit too quickly into being a romantic badass for my liking...Love or not, it would take some time for him to escape being shy, afraid, and I didn't really like his "I'm not nothing" speech.

And he will, next week. The battle isn't over, just like in the books this was the first day of battle. I don't see the problem.

Did you miss the part where Jon explains that this was a preliminary force to test the strength of Castle Black and that eventually their numbers would easily overwhelm the NW? They didn't send 100k.

You call Stannis' arrival the most epic moment yet it doesn't even happen at the end of aSoS. See, things that don't occur right at the end of something can still be epic. I was really looking forward to the Stannis scene but now I'm just looking forward to it next week. Having it not be the final scene of the episode doesn't make me like it any less, just like how it wasn't the final chapter in aSoS doesn't make me like it less.

I get the reaction I just thought it was kind of odd, especially to end that part of the story like that. Even if LF isn't in control they still should probably inform someone Arya Stark and Sandor Clegane are standing outside their gates. They're surrounded by bowmen and guards, not easy to just walk away.

I voted 8 because I think they could have (And have before) done better with Tyrion's and Arya's scenes. I didn't really like the laugh reaction, or at least how it played out, and logically it didn't make sense that they wouldn't tell Littlefinger hey Arya Stark is out here with the Hound. I suppose they could do that next week but the two of them escape somehow...Still seems kind of weird. Tyrion's scene had a message that could've been conveyed a bit better and more succinctly. The rest was great. Pascal was awesome, and as someone who doesn't care at all for Sansa in the books I find her story much more interesting on the show, as in I can actually tolerate it. Was pumped to see Dolorous Edd and Pyp get some lines, and Iain Glenn did a pretty great job in that scene as well.

It's more of a croak but it's an attempt at speaking.

How the fuck could Littlefinger control, predict, or influence Tyrion shooting his own father while taking a crap. It's just one of those little nods to people who pay attention while watching/rewatching.

It would never work with a different actress, and the show does make a fair amount of money to afford spending a rather inconsequential sum of money to provide a great effect and reaction.