Again, it is an opinion.....( In this case yours) that what "people" put together over the years are "the clues" and interpreted correctly.I never once made any such claim that other readers followed the same process as me to discover something.
Not only is that incorrect,it has nothing to do with the argument. I also made no assertion on anyone's behalf. I am simply repeating what other posters themselves have stated.
I then said to you, do a search on the forum. See how many people:
1. "Said" they went to the RLJ thread and were convinced by what was put as clues
2. How many people went with RLJ despite the flaws.
3. How many people never took it as the answer and had something else in mind.
Ahhhh, you are one of those who believe Lyanna died at the toj after giving birth to Jon there. I'm sorry but (and this is my fault). A large part of the RLJ theory is the toj. So let me say, regarding the toj, that location and any scenario that involves it doesn't give any insight into who fathered Jon.
We can't put Lyanna and or Rhaegar at anytime there together.
1. The idea that Lyanna was there comes from Ned's dream. All elements in Ned's dream because it is a dream;need not have happened in the same space and time.
2. I charge you to find me any where in the text by a reliable narrator that shows Ned with Jon in between Dorne and Winterfell.He supposedly traveled from Dorne with Howland and a wetnurse all the way to WF.He dropped off Barbery's horse.They had to eat,rest do all of these things in between that journey.Find me anyone who claims that they saw Ned with a baby and a woman.
There is no way ,absolutely no way after having lossed Lyanna would Robert Baratheon let Ned take his son to be raised at WF.That would never happen, are you forgetting who we are talking about? Robert " I am the king" Robert?
This is what Robert would do,he would make Jon his heir. He would still marry Cersie under Jon Arryn's advice ( to keep Tywin in check). And Jon would never make it to his third baby because Cersie would have had him killed.We don't have to guess what hee choice would be.We know what she would do.
"She saw at once that Ned had reached a very different conclusion. "The only truths I know are here. The south is a nest of adders I would do better to avoid."
The above is what Ned felt about court,why would he have wanted Jon in that?
Consider Cat's statement,Jon was already settled at WF by the time she came home when the wars were over. Ned could have brought Jon from around the corner for all we know.
When you are speaking to people who don't subscribe to RLJ it would help if you not project the tenants of that belief to the other arguement. This is why you and i are having a hard time communicating.You don't have to believe what i do ,but in order to uunderstand you need to find out if a reader believes the fundamentals on which RLJ stands are in fact what they believe.
E.g. The part i bolded and underlined is a prime example. RLJ believes that Lyanna extracted a promise from Ned to protect Jon "from Robert".So obviously, to you the promise has to be something specifically along those lines.
I don't believe Lyanna went into such specifics , a general plea when it comes to that would suffice.
1. I wan't to lie nex to Brandon and father. ( That alone tells us that she wanted to be buried at home.Short simple and you get the point.She is on her way out.
I wan't to show you a parallel:
"I promise." Promise me, Ned, Lyanna's voice echoed.
"The girl," the king said. "Daenerys. Let her live. If you can, if it … not too late … talk to them … Varys, Littlefinger … don't let them kill her. And help my son, Ned. Make him be … better than me." He winced. "Gods have mercy."
The above is Robert's death which was super-imposed on Ned's memory of Lyanna's death.Here we see Robert pleading for Dany's life.An innocent child that was not his.... But here's the part i want you to keep in mind.He also asks Ned to make a simple promise that encompasses a lot. " Help my son,Ned.Make him be....better than me."
That is an open ended promise on which the specifics of how that was carried out depended on Ned. He excercised it in this way by not even thinking of Cersie's kids.He in his mind thought of Robert's bastards.
So what does this have to do with what Lyanna may have asked Ned? There is no need to invent and create a boogey man from which Jon needs to be saved,especially if nothing is pointing to that except fan speculation.
A simple " Ned watch over my son." To which Ned would be the one who decided how best to " watch over Jon."
Enter "his" reasoning for never wanting Jon to be raised with Robert.
No no no, i went back and looked at my post i said " the author has written it whereby it is Robert's children that were and still are in danger from Mad Cersie.This is the current story...She laments that Cat has left her to deal with Jon Snow,and we have a true statement from Tyrion on how Cersie hated Robert so much she would kill anything that was his.How much now would she hate Jon Snow.The son of her husband by a woman whose name he would call out in bed. A woman who Cersie affirmed that Robert was still in love with.
You are doing it again. We can't look at what we might have done or what Ned should have done.I am telling you what Ned thought and believed that is not ever going to change.You can't get around that.
Still looking at things through RLJ lens. TTHE,you are making complicated something that need not be. Ned is honest about why he isn't taking Jon south. We see societal and political reasons why he wouldn't want to get Jon tied up in the madness in the south if he were Robert's. Its not a smokescreen, you are inventing something to fit another.
Cat made it clear that overtime she grew to love Ned,and i'm pretty sure it would have taken time for that to delvelop on Ned's part as well. He had no reason to tell Cat anything regarding Jon's parentage.
The same reason he wouldn't tell her if Rhaegar was Jon's father is the same reason he wouldn't tell her if Robert was his father.Either way it has nothing to do with anything regarding Jon's protection.
It comes down to this,for what possible reason would Ned have to tell Cat be it Rhaegar or Robert. He would be telling her for????
The bolded is incorrect.Read the context of Ned's jail house lament. It was in response to his auditory hallucination of Robert's query.
" How did we get here? You in jail and me killed by a pig."
What ever Ned lied about would have changed the course of where they both ended up.
Also,Robert was seconds away from death, telling him about Joffrey when he was about to die would have accomplished nothing except pulled Percy from "Green mile" on Robert. .
In fact Ned outright stated:"
It is your reasoning that is flawed my friend.Why would Ned be sorry about NOT telling his friend something that would obviously hurt him?
You didn't want to hear. There is nothing muddled or incoherent about saying something being obvious a point of view. If posters say RLJ is obvious it offends many. it is a matter of opnion based on individual factors.None of which matters in the end because it all comes down to what GRRM says.
His goals about constructing a mystery re: His nana.
His wife's own statements on this mystery tells me.
1.If RLJ is the answer GRRM's nana would have figured it out in no time and that can't be reconciled.
2. Parris says her hubby doesn't do obvious and what point of view she is speaking from. She thinks its obvious.
How hard is that to grasp? Not hard, you want to hear something and you aren't so you are grasping.
You didn't ask that didn't you? You asked why has Ned not thought so? But i will bite with two or three examples. Ned would find a way to say something right? or think and do something right?
E.g. Ned made it a habit to talk to Jon often about Robert,whom he elevated in Jon's eyes over everyone ( a giant among princes) now who "princes"on the Trident could Ned have been speaking about?
This scene is beautifully written. It is that of a best friend telling a son about his father in his own way. He couldn't tell Jon that Robert was his dad,but he made damn sure to hype Robert in his eyes;telling him how awesome he was.
Then we have this:
This is Ned thinking of how in famous Robert's lusts was before entering the brothel where his bastard was.. you know? Of the girl who evoked Lyanna for Ned.
Happening on seperate pages is one fluid scene by Ned.Whose lusts was he speaking of before going to visit said brothel?
You also mentioned something about moments of being nervous etc.
The following is the next couple of chapters but again its like one scene.
And you say you wanted to see some kind of concern.The double entendres are just too priceless here.Other than that,this freaked Ned out.
I do not think i need to explain this or why Ned is freaked out.
You didn't quote anything. you keep misrepresenting what i said or not quoting parts at all.So let's leave it that.
You are doing it again.You flippantly used something i said to RLJ ers thinking "the earth was flat" .
I 100% used the term the earth is flat but you misrepresented what i said. I said plainly to paraphrase at one point those who thought the earth was flat were the majority.That thinking and them being in the majority didn't change the fact that they were wrong.
Its as simple as that. You somehow got it twisted that i was calling RLJers a name or saying something personal against them.No i wasn't.
The constant misrepresentation is what i called dishonest because i felt....I am using an "I" statement that you were doing it intetionally.
Again and i am repeating myself. I didn't reject it because it was obvious. I told you flat out there were things about the theory that bothered me. I wouldn't reconcile it and just swept those things under the carpet.
It wasn't really interested.There was a time on here Jon's parentage was the answer to everything wrong with Westeros.But I has Other mysteries to devout time to.
I didn't do this for Jon's parentage but i did do this when it came to the Others.Why that is important is because reading the text i knew what history said about the Others and i knew to doubt the eye witness account.
The same flaws at the core regarding the Others were the same flaws that came to mind when i saw "RLJ" the only difference was..
At the time i was more interested in the Others and showing proof for that theory to really care about RLJ like that.
Lastly, you have failed,failed to counter my texts with anything remotely feasible.
Every rebutal you have had has been thrown down by text because "your" reasoning is flawed.It is flawed because you think the fundamentals of RLJ is a one fit all that needs to be answered for you to see merit.
1. You like so many others have conclusions, and you make that RLJ instead of just not contorting text.
2. You somehow think Ned could see through glass candles or something and so you answer in terms of what you think should have or could instead of just simply looking at what was and is.
To quote The Matrix " One cannot see pass the choices one already made.
Ned had a belief based on culture,religion,politics and he made choices that reflect those beliefs. As time went by he still kept a watchful eye and made choices based on what Cersie did.
I am not saying that IMO Wylla,Ashara,FD aren't red herrings.You get no disagreement from me on those.I'm saying a red herring is more than just a name(s) being thrown out for people to follow.
Note: No disrespect to anyone who believes that Ashara or Wylla is Jon's mom.
Again what is a red herring: something especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.