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ShadowCat Rivers

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About ShadowCat Rivers

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    sleeping beauty

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    Under the sea

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  1. ShadowCat Rivers

    What if Daenerys was Ugly?

    Her beauty is absolutely necessary to her early plot. Without that, you don't have *this* character developement. You even need another -credible- way to give her the dragons... It would be another character of another book. It might be interesting to read about a girl like, say, Shireen get hold on such power, but it would not be the books that we've been reading.
  2. ShadowCat Rivers

    Why did Hoster Tully throw his lot with the Rebels?

    After Brandon it was his father, next would be his betrothed and father in law to be. Hoster and his family's only chance to live was to overthrow Aerys. So simple.
  3. ShadowCat Rivers

    Who do you like more? Aegon I or Robert Baratheon?

    Well, I admit that I did make some assumptions, but that was the only way that the book references you made could be -even if flawed- somewhat relevant to the arguments you were making. Otherwise, bringing up Robert's belief that Lyanna was raped, or the Wildling wedding customs, do not make sense at all in regards to your disagreement with me on what was the logical public perception of the events.
  4. ShadowCat Rivers

    Who do you like more? Aegon I or Robert Baratheon?

    You seem to think that, if those two are the characters who mention something on-page then they must be the only characters to think so. That's flawed logic. Another example of flawed logic is that, if Jon came to respect the freefolk, then it follows that every other character would know of, understand and accept the validity of their customs out of freefolk context. As if, Ned, Robert and co should totally be like, hey, freefolk steal their wives so there you have it, it's not a kidnapping but a consensual a marriage! --- @Ethelarion, I don't think you understand what I am talking about. But, I would also rather move on to the topic than explain.
  5. ShadowCat Rivers

    Who do you like more? Aegon I or Robert Baratheon?

    Quotes from the books, please. And, freefolk tradition applies to freefolk. No one else in Westeros practices kidnapping as a marriage ritual. Last time I checked, none of the involved people were freefolk. (Jon Snow is a northerner. You can read his opinion on the relevant freefolk custom in his debate with Ygritte, in Jon III, ASOS).
  6. ShadowCat Rivers

    Who do you like more? Aegon I or Robert Baratheon?

    Being one does not necessarily means that you adhere to the ideology, just like not being one does not equal that you're not influenced or that you're not a supporter. Anyway, I did not intend to start a debate on white male ideology, I was only using it as an examble, as one of the reasons why conquerors are so widely admired. It's because most of us are taught to admire them. I do not remember reading anywhere that Robert was the first to claim anything at all about Lyanna's abduction. That she was kidnapped and raped was the general belief because, surprise, that was exactly what it looked like. I know that it will (most likely) be a rare case when it is actually not what it looks like, but that's for us readers to speculate, and "present" timeline characters to eventually find out, but that's not the case for the protagonists of the Lyanna's abduction clusterfuck. In any case, don't you think that Rhaegar had a responsibility (to the realm) to come out and clarify his actions, instead of hiding away and only come in the end to fight for Aerys?
  7. ShadowCat Rivers

    Who do you like more? Aegon I or Robert Baratheon?

    Neither am I. But the history I was taught at school was written by white males, praising the accomplishements of their kind. Conquest is a highly appreciated value in such narratives. I can safely assume that the education you underwent yourself was no much different. Neither was GRRM's, for that matter.
  8. ShadowCat Rivers

    Who do you like more? Aegon I or Robert Baratheon?

    Robert is portrayed in the series as a person with actual human virtues and vices, someone that we can really like or dislike according to how his personality resonates (subjectively) with each reader. Personally I don't like him, but I have some sympathy for him and I appreciate the few positive aspects of his character. Aegon, on the other hand, is just an historical figure, glorified for accomplishments that are very much appreciated by the 'white male' prevalent ideas of both 'his' and 'our' worlds. I have nothing for him to make me like or dislike him for the person that he was, except for my generic dislike for conquerors. So it wouldn't be a fair comparison.
  9. ShadowCat Rivers

    Would you prefer if Rhaegar won?

    Of course they are. Robb has the mitigating factor that he would not have moved if not in response to a very severe provocation, but the conqueror trio is as horrible as all conquerors. Just decided that they want this piece of land, because they can, and who gives a fuck how the people who live in it feel about it? Later on you have the winner's speech of uniting the realm and ending wars blah blah blah, as a means of post-fact, historical moral legitimization of the conquest. That's a standard procedure of all successful conquests in history.
  10. ShadowCat Rivers

    Would you prefer if Rhaegar won?

    Let's put it that way: you are a lord in Westeros, you are at Harrenhal expecting perhaps a contact from the prince to make a move against the king, which is really dangerous but really necessary, and then you watch the prince crowning Lyanna, thus offending three major houses and sending really doubious messages about his priorities... what are you going to do? Personally, I'd opt to feign ignorance of any plot ideas and hope for better days, as I am certainly not thowing my lot with Rhaegar after this performance; not really a show of dependability from his part, I say... There is a reason it was called "the moment all smiles died", and that's not Ned's supposed subjectivity, but the objective and very real potential of even more turmoil, independently of intentions.
  11. ShadowCat Rivers

    Would you prefer if Rhaegar won?

    But the thing is, how do you know that they "hadn't bothered" to try? People talk about "southron ambitions" having no clue at all what it really was about. Perhaps it was just about dealing with the Aerys situation. We can infer that there was a triumvirate formed of Arryn, Stark, Tully, and that it's possible there was contact with Lannister too. Simply, we have no idea about what they were intending to do, so you can't say as a fact that they were happy to let Aerys do his thing as long as he didn't interfere with their own domains.
  12. ShadowCat Rivers

    Would you prefer if Rhaegar won?

    If it's Daenerys who saves the world, will the mad king get the props for raping his wife after burning his hand, resulting to fathering the saviour? Or is it Rhaegar who gets it again, for if he didn't start the whole mess then the sequence of events that led to Dany's conception would not have occured? This line of thinking can produce some very, ehm, interesting stuff...
  13. ShadowCat Rivers

    Would you prefer if Rhaegar won?

    Although I would not agree on the prophecy angle1, I agree that one of his flaws, perhaps the fatal one, might have been the excessive focus to the task at hand, to the extend of missing the forest for the tree. I base this assessement on the Harrenhal "crowning" incident: focusing on how he'd find a way to honour Lyanna for her KotLT stance2, he failed to take into account the (very obvious, actually) personal and, more importantly, political implications of this act. Another flaw would be his refusal to see the problem of his father's madness for what it was and act on it on time; actually, procrastinating seems to be something of his prefered problem "solving" method, as also attested by waiting for so long until assuming responsibility during RR - and even then he didn't come out on his own, he was summoned... So, while I believe3 that Rhaegar was, most likely, a decent person with great talents in some areas and a certain degree of competence in the rest, I do not believe that he would make an all around good king. In times of peace, sure, but in times of crisis (just like the one he helped create)? no, apparently not. It's also important to note that he'd have to deal with more complex situation in the aftermath than team Robert had - more layered and deep division in his own camp, and the same if not greater dependency on ambitious third parties, like Tywin. And yes, the succession issue would be far from clear, as would be the legal status of his two queens (btw, an other factor of continuous tension, and a great "entry" for the political players to create advancement opportunities and exert influence). After all, there is the in-story examble of Eddard: a decent and dutiful person and a good administrator within his comfort zone, but completely out of depth in the Game of Thrones... Rhaegar strikes me as a similar type, as one who would fuck up royally in playing the game, as his comparative flaws would get the better of him. By the way, I think that although Robert was far from being a good king, the usual assessment of his reign is overly exaggerated. He was indifferent, but that's that; his Hand is supposed to be a competent politician and administrator3 and he was believed to handle well the matters of the realm4. Fourteen good years should be seen as a success, especially for a new regime that assended after a divisive "civil" war. Surely his indifference / indecisiveness / avoidence to take responsibility did lay the ground for the problems that arose later, but these are the same flaws that Rhaegar exhibited therefore we can't say that he would be a better king than Robert no matter what; he'd (presumably) be more involved and propably he'd have good intentions, but that does not mean anything wrt the end result: as a matter of fact, his involvement could make things worse, for all we know. 1. There are indications that he was not solely or obsessively preoccupied with prophecy, but that he was involved in the political scene as well. 2. Very assumptive, I know, but that's the interpretation of events that I find the most likely by virtue of providing the best explanation for the known events sequence. 3. As I see it, if so many in-story characters who had personally known him believe so, there must be a degree of truth to it. That goes for all characters. 4. "He beggared the realm" is often used as evidence for the failure of Robert's rule, but I believe it's more of an evidence for Littlefinger's talents in large scale economic fraud, as implied later by Tyrion's POV. Tourneys and other "extravaganzas" should not be considered as useless waste per se, as such events do generate income. Ned's POV presents the more conservative view in financial matters, but had LF not been a "white collar" scum, his economic approach might have been successful (for the realm, I mean, because from LF's view it was very successful indeed).
  14. ShadowCat Rivers

    Would you prefer if Rhaegar won?

    There is no reason to imagine that things would be better for the realm. There would be a torn realm, no easy fixes, on the contrary tensions could become even worse: for examble, assuming that Rhaegar would go for a second marriage and legitimisation of Jon, this would be an insult to Dorne and an insult to the Faith. Who would support him, then? The defeated half of the realm, because Jon? I do not think so. Tywin might, if that meant increase of his own influence. In general, Tywin would profit as much as he did with RR, maybe even more, because Rhaegar would not have a solid support base: except for the Crownlands, he only can only count on the Reach; therefore, Lannister support becomes indispensable. As for Varys & LF: they are symptoms, not the cause. The "illness" is the Game, which would be played even more fiercely and uncontrollably because the "central authority" would be weaker in case of a Targaryen win. The Game produces its players, so there would never be a lack of Varys/LF figures.
  15. ShadowCat Rivers

    Mistakes/Contradictions in the books?

    More than possible, it's a certainty. He didn't even tell Catelyn of the horrific details of Brandon and Rickard's murders, she only knew that they were executed without a trial, until Jaime told her. So Bran infered it was a beheading because that's the only way of execution he has ever known about. Other than that, there are some specific cases of inconsistencies here and there, and minor changes like Meria Martell's name but nothing too serious - the most important inconsistencis are about time and space -distance and timelines- which are kept purposefully vague for that reason but still, they can cause confusion if one looks too much into such issues.
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