Ser Creighton

Here is a nice little parallel between the literal and the symbolic. Judging from Jon's parentage symbolically you get ice and fire. A long suspected belief with Jon. But what about the literal aspect. If Jon walks between both does anyone else? There may be one, Drink from the cup of fire, drink from the cup of ice. Jon died, and came back via a priestess of fire. In the books they take the fire within themselves this is what gives them life. The Night's King is also undead, he had the fire taken out this makes him ice of course. And who would stand between those two in the literal aspect of things? Lets say they both happen to want her.

Wouldn't be the first time she was married to a walking corpse, and this one even talks and walks, it's a huge step up. I don't know what Sansa is exactly thinking, I think there will be a Rift, but it will get mended, LF is going down.

Makes no difference to what the show runners said and are doing, I posted there quotes word for word and links to the quotes. "So I think there’s a little bit of anger about that and a little bit of jealousy and that relationship will be crucial to watch." There is a reason she starts doubting Jon. Littlefinger plants the seed when they meet in the north, afterwards she talks to BOT about. Now BOT seems okay with Jon but does not trust his council. From her perspective Sansa should be concerned about Mel and Davos. Jon is treating Sansa as his little sister still, which she is but he is clearly not aware of who she has become or what she has learned. Sansa believably has trust issues and why not after everything she has been through. but Jon does not take her council on Ramsey, or even seek and this hurt her. She went behind his back to get help. It was not done in malice or with malicious intent but she did not trust Jon to listen to her. She knows she should of trusted him more but it's also not easy for her, she has doubt and has been through a lot. Jon respects Sansa enough to let her decide Ramsey's fate, which I think was a step in the right direction. But we see Sansa being conflicted about certain things. Sansa and Jon both say no to being either the Lord or Lady of Winterfell. The balcony scene ends well enough, they are trying to figure it out, but then once again a problem enters, the same problem that has been floating around Sansa for awhile. Littlefinger and again he tries playing Sansa off Jon being a bastard and her being true born. Littlefinger loves planting the seeds of doubt, and while seeds may be very small things they tend to take root. They are not showing you these seeds for no reason, he is trying to create a rift, it's what he does. Jon is dangerous to him, Jon actually cares about Sansa, he is a threat to him. It's not so much about trust for Littlefinger, he knows people don't trust him, but he wants people to rely on him, he wants Sansa to rely on him not Jon. Now the show runners point to her past with Jon and the present. There are some issues there, and Littlefinger is playing on those issues. Which we see in the heart tree scene. "You my love are the future of house Stark." "Who should the north rally behind? The true born daughter of Catlyne and Ned Stark born here at winterfell, or a motherless bastard born in the south?" Did Sansa say anything? Did she defend Jon. You can see the conflict on her face. Then we get a scene with Bran showing Jon is not motherless. And then back to Sansa and Jon to see that questioned answered by the lords of the north. They rallied to Jon. When Lyanna gave her little speech, Sansa grinned a couple times, But when Manderly declares for Jon you can see her look of surprise as she turns her head away. We then see Littlefingers face with the same look of concern as the lords begin to declare for Jon. Sansa does not smile once during the declarations until Jon looks at her. When Jon begins to stand up, does Sansa look happy to anyone? She gave a weak smile to Jon and then made eye contact with Littlefinger. The two people in the room showing the least emotion. Now personally I think Sansa feels she should be happy for Jon, and yet isn't. I think Sansa feels a bit rejected and under appreciated, after all she endured. And Littlefinger is going to play off that because that is what he does. They are not playing with this idea for no reason, d&d talk about it, and there is a problem there. I think things get worse before they get better between the two. Do you think D&D are not planning on anything involving anger, conflict and jealousy between Sansa and Jon? After just telling people to keep an eye on that relationship when talking about the anger, conflict and jealousy that exists. Now I am not really worried about Littlefinger stealing Sansa away to sit the Iron throne, in fact I will give you a thousand reasons why that will never happen. But that does not stop him from playing the game. http://i.imgur.com/z0qNzxn.jpg

Oh yeah they said it, people are talking about Stark civil war on other sites. As in the Marvel movie as a joke, but yes they said she was jealous. I don't know I have seen a lot of people pick up on it with the exchange of looks between her and Littlefinger. http://www.moviefone.com/2016/06/27/sansa-jon-relationship-crucial-to-watch-game-of-thrones-season-7/ http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/06/27/game-of-thrones-will-jon-snow-and-sansa-stark-stay-allies http://www.buddytv.com/articles/game-of-thrones/game-of-thrones-60411.aspx http://mashable.com/2016/06/27/game-of-thrones-season-7-sibling-rifts/#iPy8PMns4Eqf "Sansa does love her brother. They’ve had a conflicted past but over the course of this season they’ve come to really rely upon each other. But she doesn’t necessarily trust him completely. She didn’t tell him about the meeting with Littlefinger; she didn’t tell him that she summoned the knights of The Vale. There’s definitely a little hint of conflict there. We see that come out in episode nine, when she’s at the war council where no one asks her opinion despite the fact that she knows Ramsay better than anyone. So I think there’s a little bit of anger about that and a little bit of jealousy and that relationship will be crucial to watch." So I guess I was not the only one who picked up on it. Don't shoot the messenger, that's what they said, and other people have picked up on it.

Umm maybe you should listen to the post credits. Sansa is jealous of Jon, I tossed in some over the top humor. But yeah she isn't happy about it according to the producers.

"Sam who is in the south looking for help will make for KL once Dany shows up" It may seem strange, but people can move to different places if they have a reason too. I think if he knows who Arya is, he will attempt to keep his oath. But I think the Mountain is going to come into play. Only two players with a proximity to him sort of deserve that shot, Dany and Jaime. For Jaime it's a form of atonement, for Dany vengeance. But I think Jaime would need a lot of help. So will see. I don't know if Jaime makes it or not, I would like the Tyrion reunion and I would like him to have to face Dany. I imagine taking the black could come into play.

It's the weird time thing on the show, like Varys there and Back again a Eunuchs holiday. 2 Episodes, should of taken like a year in real time. Who knows how long it was on the show. A lot of time passes the show just does no express it very well. Well it wouldn't be the first time forced perspective was used when Tyrion was in a scene, for some reason. The step was classic. I also think the initial wide shot was to make the Throne room look bigger, the lighting was also different, much brighter than usual. It was a nice contrast to the shot with Sansa and Jon in the crowded hall, that was very grey and dim, and Sansa giving LF that we are going FU my bastard half brother look. He stole it, he stole it all and they love him and she is not even on their radar. It's a great contrast of love and hate, and the differences between the two groups relationships.

Could be, but she is not done with the those that harmed her family, so KL seems her most likely destination, just as it is for Dany. Personally I can't wait for her to see the Dragons. However Widows wail brings up a possible parallel, by all right's Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail belong to house Stark. Oathkeeper was given to help BOT find ans help the Staek girls. It is technically Sansa's sword as BOT swore it to her. If Widows Wail should appear I could see Arya getting her hands on it, which comes full circle to her taking Joff's sword again, though the water she plunges it into may be more along the lines of an Other. As we see with Arya and Sansa again Sansa has her needles and Arya has hers. Or in this case Sansa has her Valyrian sword and Arya may get hers. It could always end up with Jaime if it does appear, but he has never been inclined towards either sword. Given the swords origin Arya may make more sense here. Though I think it would be cool if Jaime got it and then returned it to her. His honor has been known to pop up from time to time.

Don't know, they have touched on Widows wail much. I do think Arya who is targeting Jaime, will show up at KL and Sam who is in the south looking for help will make for KL once Dany shows up to take out the trash. I think we are going to see converging plot points in KL. Sam is there for a reason, and his house is now aligned with Dany, after all the Tarly's serve the Tyrells. So I think we see his father and get a confrontation.

Walder ate and entire piece of that pie. When you see him he is just finishing the first piece, Arya is bringing him seconds. After she cuts off the next piece you can see half the pie is now gone. Num num num Walder went had some.

I know Tyrion will probably want revenge, there is a reason, he had a pact. Again it does not explain Varys going to Dorne. What Oberyn said he said to Tyrion and he said it pre death obviously. Would you say Ellaria has been stable since his death? I could totally see her wanting to be on team Dany, but the Tyrion/Ellaria relationship is different which is why I brought up Davos/Mel. Tyrion would be in the same sort of position as Davos, though Tyrion can be much more ruthless than Davos. And Given his connection to Oberyn's death who is to say that Ellaria does not hold a grudge. She is a kin slayer, a back stabber, a murderer of children. Didn't Oberyn also say we don't harm little girls in Dorne. Well it seems what he said holds little water with Ellaria, who seems to want nothing more than vengeance logic be damned. Now the Queen of Thorns that's different, I doubt she would have any problem with Tyrion, and Dany is right in her wheel house. That's like peas and carrots despite how she felt about certain Targs. It's a woman who is the wonder of her age, making statements all over the globe. Women can rule, slavery is over, women can lead armies, women can rule their houses. But Ellaria crossed a line, there is a problem there, it seems unlikely the show will ignore that. Or that Tyrion is tied to Oberyn's death and that Ellaria killed his niece who sent to Dorne. Varys would have to know this, everyone knows this.

What was Varys thinking going to Dorne? Ellaria killed Myrcella, he sent Myrcella to Dorne, they had a pact. Ellaria blames the Lannisters for Oberyns death and Tyrion was heavily connected to that death. Lannisters have declared war on Dorne, well yeah after you killed Myrcella. I wonder if she is crazy enough to try and kill Tyrion?Oh, she probably wants to kill Tyrion, and at best it's a Davos/Mel story. Probably wants to kill Dany too, "we want revenge for Ellia, oh and your family invaded us 200 years ago and we want revenge for that, oh and Quin died in the books and even though this is the show we want revenge for that. Is this black tea? I said green tea, we must have vengeance for the black tea. The dragons can fly and the sand snakes can't, the injustice must be avenged.

Technically Ramsey avenged the Red Wedding, but I think they are talking about taking down all of house Bolton. Bran is actually at the Wall, he dropped them off at the Grove, they are right by Castle black on the show. Rikkon, Bran, Sansa, Arya have all grown kids grow, so do babies, that's kind of how it works the sneaky little monsters. What are those kids doing growing, something funny is going on around here. What was going on in the scene with Dany and Tyrion? They were having a conversation, one arc was ending and a new one beginning. It's the transition scene. Tyrion is now hand, would of liked to have seen the Varys/Dany intro. It also sets up another parallel to Jon and Sansa. They really like doing those. You see that Dany is more comfortable around Tyrion, the trust is clearly growing and that relationship is moving forward. I actually really enjoyed that scene, they took the edge off Dany.

I did not have much in the ways of dislike for this episode. 8.5, I can skip on the Arya teleporting as Braavos is not that far away and they got me, did not see that coming. They gave her Frey pie which was a pro and con for me, I thought Arya was going to be a bit more sane, but killing and cooking the Freys was pretty ruthless. -.5. Though taking him out and giving Jamie the oh boy you are just what I am looking for look was fun. Varys getting to to Westeros, ok I gave that a pass, but getting back to Dany. That should of taken him over a year. -1. And really that was about it. The teleporting bugged me with Varys and Frey Pie Arya. I thought the Dany and Darrio scene was good, but I really liked Tyrion and Dany there, they finally took the edge off her and got back to complex Dany, they were really good together in that scene and once again juxtaposed to Jon and Sansa. The little nod of fear, her caring about Daario but glad it was over. I really like that scene that's all I can say. I liked Jon being crowned and the look on Sansa's face that goes from being happy to looking at LF who has that I told you so look, oh Sansa. Jon has a mommy, and it only took a couple of decades. Finally Cersei from the books was back, oh how I missed her. Tommen, I know it's wrong but as soon as I saw him in front of that window we were all laughing, Tommen was going to fly. That's so wrong, can't be helped. The return of the Little birds. Sam and the Library, the Library and Oldtown looked great. The Sand snakes getting ripped apart, how in gods name is Tyrion going to deal with them. They had a pact. Dany and the ships, oh Cers the Curse your reign is going to be over before it started, Varys is going to teleport the whole Army there within one episode. Maybe Dany stops in Pentos, or Braavos. Doesn't matter, I hope she takes back Dragonstone, and goes from there. Oh and NO MORE MEEREEEEEEEEEN! Thank god that's over. Oh and in the episode that Dany is making her self free for Marriage, Jon gets a crown, the only eligible bachelor on the show. There is Jon and there is Euron and Euron is a walking corpse.

If you say so, I find confusion often causes anxiety in people and that tends to lead to anger or someone being upset. I don't find the story complex, book or series seems pretty simple to follow. Jon is juxtaposed to Dany pretty often, no different here. Dany is defending Meereen from attack, Jon is retaking Winterfell. They both negotiate with their respective opponents, the question of will your men fight for you is brought up in both cases. Tyrion is her advisor, Sansa will act as Jon's. The guy who took Tyrion as a slave is there, and Sansa of course has Ramsey. http://oadara.tumblr.com/post/146202045786/ice-and-fire-jon-x-dany-i-mean-fire-is-love#notes Simple idea, easy enough to spot. I was not a great fan of some of the dialogue choices, but fine with the plot and the symbolism. You must like Martins work if you are here, this concept permeates his books. Certain aspect of the story are still unfolding so I reserve judgment on them, like I would like to know exactly what is going on with Sansa and why she never told Jon and it looks like they will address it this week. The arrival of the Vale is cliche, but the hero leading them less so. Beside you had to know they were showing up after the letter.

Your rating is your rating and you are welcome to it, your opinion is like all opinions, it's not a fact and it's subjective. Sansa bullshit? It's been six years she has been evolving on the show, 2 decades the books. I think her conversation with Jon was in character, she would probably feel more comfortable expressing herself to her half brother she has known since birth. She thought Ramsey would trick Jon and kill Rickon, it's not exactly a stretch. Many people came to the same conclusion. She wanted Ramsey dead, well a lot of people did. I did not mind the character personally, he was crazy but there have been worse people in Martins world. Worse in ours as well. I would say the dialogue had been slipping, but not awful, and not coarse. Cliche maybe. Unfortunately I can point to a lot of cliche in TV and literature. You don't think the north has lock step legions? In the books it's the most common form of fighting in both Essos and Westeros. Unsullied are suppose to be the best, but the Lannisters have also used them, the north as well. Those are his fathers men, and Roose was the type to have his men well trained. Though the true test of a lockstep legion comes against either another lockstep legion or a cavalry charge. The Wildlings would hardly be a match. I agree I thought Jon reawakening was the best scene. http://oadara.tumblr.com/post/146202045786/ice-and-fire-jon-x-dany-i-mean-fire-is-love#notes Sometimes D&D are not that great with Dialogue, and sometimes it's like following a patch work but I notice a lot of fans seem to miss some of the more subtle symbolism they do. I think they should get some credit for that, as it is common in Martins work. Like that image or when Jon and Dany both beheaded someone, one for love and one for hate. Or Loras and Oliver and Jon and Olly. Loras a rose with his "birth"mark of Dorne and his squire Oliver who betrays him, and Jon a rose who may have been born in Dorne and his squire of a similar name who betrays him. It keeps line with some of the ways Martin drops clues, and runs symbolism and juxtaposes characters. Two well established literary devices. You seem very angry, it's just a show, based off books that are just books. Anyway it's all good I think you have some valid criticisms and I think you missed some things as well, but you seem a little over critical of certain things, like Sansa. But that's just my opinion, and well you know what they say about those?

She kept the ships, that's confirmed in a later scene. She needs ships, she kept those and added Yara and the Iron fleet to it. She was talking about ships in one of her earlier episodes and how many she would need. Tyrion thanked the masters for the ships. It was a demonstration of power. Personally I think the moment Drogon shows up the Masters should been like "about that the surrender" I thought what was strange was that both Jon and Greyworm say essentially the same thing. Greyworm asked the soldiers why they would fight and die for the masters when the masters would never do that for you. Go home to your families. While Jon used the same basic idea with Ramsey, pointing out that why would the North men fight for Ramsey when he would not fight for them. I thought we might see some defectors. It had little point in this episode maybe another, but I don't think any of Ramsey's men survived.

Dany said she was going to kill all the Masters, not just the 3 that were in Meereen, and not just their fleet, all of them as in Volantis, Qarth, Yunkai etc... She was going to destroy all their cities. Tyrion talked her down. There was little blood shed for a battle. Dany destroyed 1 ship, Greyworm talked the guard into leaving without any of them being harmed and 2 Masters were killed after they attempted to sacrifice the third. They made an example of those guys. They broke a pact, attacked Meereen and got off lucky. The third master was released to spread the word. It wasn't really a battle, it was a quick minor engagement to make a point. Point being don't push your luck. You say no party surrendered but the Masters did surrender. It only took one ship and 2 masters. Look how many died in Jon's battle and Dany and the Masters had much larger forces. It's similar to what Aegon used to do, offer surrender, if it's not excepted make an example. They could of killed 10's of thousands of people, a Handful of Harpies who are the ones attacking, a couple of Masters who broke a pact and 1 ship out what is suppose to be hundreds. Dany was planning on removing all of them from the face of the earth. Leveling entire cities, the death toll could of been in the hundreds of thousands. In most wars you don't end up with a peace that quick and so little loss of life. It was a good plan, simple and effective, now a lot of people are not going to die, I mean a lot. That's why in the conversation between Tyrion and Dany he brought up her father wanting to burn cities. Because Dany was going to totally wreck them, no more masters, no more cities, countless dead. Instead it was a ship attacking a city, Harpies attacking innocent unarmed people, and 2 Masters. There are thousands of masters, and they have armies, and servants, and sell swords, and cities full of people. Hell I think Jon killed more people by himself than died in the battle for Meereen.

The White Ravens are flying. Good to see Tyrion return to form, loved that he talked Dany down and was not afraid to talk about Jaime. Sansa was great, Jon acted normal again, Davos is totally going to lose it. So much better than last week.

I thought it was really good, I gave it an 8-9. Next week preview, the White Ravens fly.

Well sense the beginning, but it goes back to that time she left Winterfell with her father and sister. What happened, there was an incident, and Nymeria her wolf was forced to runaway and Arya ran away and hid. And from that point on we see her running away a lot. She does tell Gendry who she is, and Hot Pie, but she keeps moving away from her identity. Riverrun was kind of like the last draw. Essentially she ran away to become no one and ended up finding herself. And maybe she finds Nymeria, at least in the books, I don't know about the show. But as she moves towards Winterfell I think that happens. Because that would be more of her identity returning. I can't say the show laid it our great but I think it is there. GRRM and the show are two different animals, and Arya did have the Waif's face. Only one way you get those. Anything can happen but it would seem unlikely.

Arya Stark = Cat of the Canals = Kitty Pryde, ninja school and all. The entire point of the FM plot on the show, was Arya learning to fight blind or in the Darkness. It's not about the Waif any which way, it's about Arya and the Darkness. In the books Arya uses the Darkness in the sub levels of KL to shield her after Ned dies, and in the Darkness she finds Dragons. Bran is told to not fear the Darkness but make it his armor, which we have seen with Arya as well. In the moment she flicks out the candle Arya becomes a Sword in the Darkness, sound familiar? It should. It's a relevant skill to the long night after all. I can't say I really enjoyed the shows interpretation of the FM arc, but it seem obvious what the symbolism of that scene between her and the Waif was. You could also say that Arya is looking at a choice, the Waif could be her future, she could be no one, an orphan with no home, a FM with no identity or she could be Arya, and Arya has a home, and family. Arya has often been someone else in the books, she has been running away from her self after all the tragedy as most children will do. Now she is ready to be Arya again. It's a simple choice but one she needed to make.

Just a couple of things, I was not a fan of the FM arc on the show, but I think it made one point. Arya learned to fight in the dark. It's not about beating the Waif, and how she over came her. She was always going to beat the waif. It's more than likely a tool for the long night. As Bran was told in the books, make the Darkness your armor. Well essentially that is what Arya did. I believe it ties to a future plot point. It also connects to Arya in the books hiding in the Darkness, which she does after Ned is killed. At it's essence in that moment Arya became the sword in the Darkness. So I had some appreciation for that symbolism. Not so much for the chase and on and off again wound. In both books and show Riverrun ends without violence, and I agree I liked the Jaime Brie interactions, I do not agree this will be the last time. That said I would like to think there is more of a point to the Blackfish dying, and some are saying Lord Blackheart. Which is why the BwB is back. It was also pointed out the Beric wants the Hound to come with them North, and that Brie is in the Riverlands and also headed north. So we may get a Hound/Sansa reunion as well as Brie and Sansa reuniting and Brie Hound which should make for an interesting conversation. You find gullible teenagers hard to believe? Tommen is soft and indecisive that is the nature of his character. He is easy to manipulate. I did not think anything interesting happened there other than the set up to the Wildfire bomb, but did not think it was bad. Meereen. Oh dear lord it has been painful. Are they even writing dialogue for them or they just sitting in a room making stuff up. Oh and by way the way Missy, Greyworm and Tyrion, look around take the hint and bend the knee, Queen, not the Queen, that's how it works. Varys and Tyrion I thought had a good scene. Just that joke scene was so bad. Dany gets no lines and that trio got that disaster of a scene? It was a setup episode, again, and not a great one. But there do seem to be some hints of what direction they were going. I would remember Arya fighting in Darkness and look at that connection moving forward with her story.

Agreed.

What hole? I appears to come and go as need be. It's a portal to a world of blood that hurts or doesn't hurt and bleeds and doesn't bleed. Actually did you notice they showed one orange with blood on it? To show Arya was bleeding, but all I could think of was "splat" and Doran Martell. I would say it's a good chance Brienne and Pod meet the Brotherhood. "I survived tougher girls than you" was probably the one quote that had me laughing, The Hound gives a shout out to Brienne. Balckfish=Blackheart. Could be, or they just skip it. Beric wants to head North and he wants the Hound to fight with the Brotherhood (Sansa/ Hound reunion). Beric is indicating the Others are coming. And what he tells the hound fills in the ideas of the Watch in some ways. A chance for redemption. Hound/Watch and Hound/Sansa, I am down for that. Blackfishheart, not so much, but it could happen. Given both are basically headed to the same place, it seems likely for a Brienne/Hound reunion. Drogon is probably not going far, I think the idea was to get him and her in a frame for the characters to see. It's just a shot. Heck Drogon could be flying out over the bay to scare the daylights out of the slavers. Those idiots got no idea what's coming for them. She is going to cut the Dragons and the Dothraki loose, and yeah the Iron Born probably arrive, Hammer and the Anvil. No escape for those guys. Varys is totally headed to Dorne, though I doubt he needs to activate the Little birds, just collect intel from them. Kev could be a dead man, but if they are doing the Wildfire plot, no point in Varys offing him on the show.