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Green Gogol

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About Green Gogol

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    Squire
  • Birthday 06/29/1977

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    Male
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    Montreal, Canada

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  1. Green Gogol

    On realism, grimdark and childishness

    But you can’t choose a definition that you like and try to impose it on others. That’s not how languages work. Language is an organic, living thing that refuse to be controlled. People don’t try to assign weird specific elements and philosophies to the word grimdark. It’s how it is understood by most people.
  2. Green Gogol

    On realism, grimdark and childishness

    Because it’s your own definition and it’s so general as to include most fantasy. Here’s the Oxford dictionnary definition. And it is a bit lacking in my opinion ”A genre of fiction, especially fantasy fiction, characterized by disturbing, violent, or bleak subject matter and a dystopian setting.” The Wikipedia article is also an interesting read on the subject. And you might read the article on 1d4chan. However in the stuff considered grimdark section, the tend to include eveything and the kitchen sink. So take that with a grain of salt.
  3. Green Gogol

    On realism, grimdark and childishness

    So, fantasy is everything that isn’t realistic, and grimdark is whenever you have a flawed protagonist. Wow. You guys are really trying to include everything and the kitchen sink into grimdark fantasy.
  4. Green Gogol

    On realism, grimdark and childishness

    The Scarlet Pimpernel is not fantasy..., more an adventure story in a historical setting. He has more in common with Zorro and Batman than Frodo and Fitz Chivalry.
  5. Green Gogol

    On realism, grimdark and childishness

    So demonizing them is better? You said earlier you want them all to be purely evil, no nuance. Yet you claim you enjoy adult fantasy. I don’t find generalizations like that particularly “adult”. For me, it’s like saying that all the followers of Islam are terrorists, or that all Italians are mafiosi.
  6. Green Gogol

    On realism, grimdark and childishness

    I tend to agree with you. Phipps definition of grimdark is so broad as to make it meaningless. Almost every work out there could be considered grimdark according to his definition. I don’t know, but Phipps, I feel you are fascinated by grimdark and that you would really like to claim a lot of works in this category. And I don’t understand why. Grimdark is a reaction to noble bright fantasy (I know the term is not appreciated, but I use it, for lack of a better word). As The Marquis the Leech wrote in his article, I would say that grimdark is an extreme. A black hole, where cynicism, nihilism, misery, despair, sadism, brutality, psychopathy, etc is all there is to the world. Be an amoral murderer or die. On the other end of the spectrum is the rainbow of noble bright. Flowers, unicorns, flawless heroes, cleanliness, honor, altruism, empathy, and compassion all around. But those are extremes and no work is entirely grimdark or noble bright. Me, I prefer stories where I can identify with the protagonist. I’ve had some pretty horrible things that happened to me, but I still believe that there is hope and that I can make the world a better place.
  7. Green Gogol

    On realism, grimdark and childishness

    Mmmm, I don’t know. Isn’t aristrocratic are evil/bad/horrible a pretty common trope?
  8. Green Gogol

    On realism, grimdark and childishness

    Ah, but being less unpleasant and horrible than your neighbor doesn’t make what you do any less reprehensible. So fantasy authors and readers discovered that nobody is completely evil, and now they are having a blast exploring different degrees of evil. But I’d say that evil is not interesting when it’s opposite is inexistant.
  9. Green Gogol

    On realism, grimdark and childishness

    Maybe that’s the point of the story. But imho it’s not an interesting point to make. Neither is it revolutionary. It’s as old as the world.
  10. Green Gogol

    On realism, grimdark and childishness

    But in real life, neither the story nor the universe is on anobydy’s side. It’s rather neutral. Does prevent people from being altruistic and having emoathy and compassion. There are some bad and horrible people, but the great majority doesn’t want to put a dagger through your ribs. Yes, of course the grimdark stories are usually about war, which drive people to do terrible things to survive. But it doesn’t turn everybody into homicidal maniacs. In fact if you read a bit about wars, you’ll hear about lots of people doing heroic things and being altruistic, showing empathy and compassion.
  11. Green Gogol

    On realism, grimdark and childishness

    I’d say that ASOIAF is existential nihilism. It’s been many years since I’ve read it and I gave up somewhere in the fourth book if I remember correctly. i might be mistaken, but I seem to remember that altruism is not present in any meaningful way. Also, i gave up because I was fed up we the endless bad things happening. Nothing good ever happened. And I don’t remember any scene where 5e characters were happy, having fun. So maybe some characters are morally ambiguous, but the tone of the book is grim and dark. As for the first law trilogy, again it’s been a while since I’ve read it, and I really enjoyed The characters. However at the end i felt nothing changed. Jezal was an arrogant fool, and he was the same at the end. Ninefingers was a bloodthirsty tyrant, and he was the same in the end. Don’t remember what happened with Glotka but I don’t remember him changing at all. As if the character arc was a circle instead. They went through a lot, but didn’t change in the end.
  12. Green Gogol

    On realism, grimdark and childishness

    Not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that you think life is awful?
  13. Green Gogol

    On realism, grimdark and childishness

    The point of the thread was not to determine if grimdark is better than whatever. The point was to discuss the idea that the grimdark stories where everybody is horrible and nothing good ever happens is not more realistic or adult than other more optimistic books.
  14. Green Gogol

    On realism, grimdark and childishness

    I do find it frightening that what we call the far right here in Quebec is on the rise everywhere in the world. It is gaining in popularity all around the world and i am less than optimistic about the future. Your president is quite a dangerous clown.
  15. Green Gogol

    On realism, grimdark and childishness

    Yes, but at the same time, having a harsh life doesn’t mean you end being a bloddthirsty jerk. As an aside, like most people, I used to think that not taking a bath once in a while and never brushing your teeth resulted in a nasty smell, and horrible teeths. However, during my travels in Namibia I had the chance to spend some time in a Himba village. They live in huts made of cow dung, they wear goatskin clothes and they never wash since the region they live in is arid. When I was invited to visit a hut, I was full of apprehensions. I was thinking the smell inside would be horrible. Big surprise, the inside had a faint odor of woodsmoke and that’s it. The people living there didn’t stink at all, and they had nice teeth. So harsh conditions doesn’t mean horrible individuals, and it doesn’t mean filthy either.
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