Lost Melnibonean

He's wound up so tight when we meet him, too much pressure. If Aegon had lived, Aegon would have been king, and Viserys could have been a prince forever.

I actually think Viserys might have been relived to learn that Aegon was alive. But that would be a hypothetical exercise about a fictional character, involving a story with a different plot.

Yes, and Aegon... otherwise Viserys can swim with the fishes in the Bay of Pentos.

Davos I, Clash Foreshadows Brienne and Jaime love, and Lady Stoneheart. Id. Foreshadows Tyrion's nose.

I don't think anyone but the Daenerys fans would be all that surprised. But I know nothing.

See, that bit of D&D commentary at the end of that episode should be treated here like a SSM. So, yes, we know that's the fate. But even SSMs and the like are not canonical until they are published in the books or the ancillary stories. (Even advance chapters are not canon since they haven't been published.) So, we don't know which door or when.

I am guessing that dragon eggs remained the property of the crown, to be held in trust by the princeling, until the egg hatched or until the crown recalled it.

In Eddard VII, Game 30, Varys visits Eddard in disguise and plies him with information. When Eddard asks why Varys has come to him now, Varys responds that he only learned with certainty that morning that Eddard was loyal to the realm rather than to himself. That morning, Eddard talked his friend Robert out of fighting in the melee of the Hand's Tourney, which Varys said, Cersei had goaded him into. Really? Is that why Varys approached Eddard in that fashion? Varys had to know from his meeting with Petyr and Catelyn, and Eddard's discovery of Gendry, that Petyr was "aiding" Eddard in his investigation of Jon Arryn's assassination and the attempt on Bran's life. He knew that Eddard had stumbled on the lineage book from Pycelle, and that he was asking questions after Jon Arryn's remaining retainers. Now, here's the interesting thing... Catelyn captured Tyrion at the Crossroads Inn and Daenerys became pregnant. We know that Varys knew these things within a couple of days, when Arya overhears part of his meeting with Illyrio, but we don't know exactly when he found out these things. Is it possible that Varys learned these two things (the catnapping and Daenerys's pregnancy) before he visited Eddard in disguise? And maybe that's the real reason he visited The Ned? We know that Varys does not want Eddard to discover the truth of the twincest, right? Illyrio and Varys do want to provoke a war between Lannister and Stark, just not yet, right? Because they don't want the war to start until Viserys is ready to join the Golden Company with fifty thousand Dothraki screamers at his back, right? In Eddard VIII, Game 33, a day or two after Varys found out that Catelyn had kidnapped Tyrion, and the day after The Ned found out, Varys advised the Small Council that Daenerys was pregnant. At this point, Varys and Eddard both know that Catelyn has captured Tyrion, but neither says anything of it during the king's meeting with the small council to discuss Daenerys's pregnancy. Why not? Why doesn't Varys tell king and council about Catelyn's capture of Tyrion?

I know a lot of readers are emotionally invested in Daenerys. I have no desire to antagonize you or anyone else that might be emotionally invested in her. Daenerys is a wonderful character, an exceptional character, especially when you read those Daenerys chapters in Game in isolation. She is after all the mother of dragons. That lemon tree, though, makes be think that her arc will end in bitterness and disappointment. And I suspect that will culminate in her tragic death, with just a touch of sweetness as she rides off into the Night Lands, but her son, like Rhaenyra's, could very well end up ruling the Seven Kingdoms. Consider the younger, more beautiful prophecy. Margaery is the red herring for Cersei as Stannis is the red herring for Melisandre in the prince that was promised prophecy. And in both instances the red herring for the reader is Daenerys. I am guessing that younger more beautiful queen is actually Brienne. And I am guessing that the prince that was promised is actually Jon. With that said, please don't think I am emotionally invested in the special snowflake. It's just a guess. I could care less about the endless Jon or Daenerys is better debates on this forum. The first time I read the novels I was convinced that Beric was Azor Ahai, and I wanted it to be him, until, well, he wasn't.

No doubt, Daenerys is the most obvious candidate. She totally fits the prophesy to a tee. There's just one problem, while the Dutch like to eat herring raw, most of us prefer it smoked and salted. So, shouldn't we assume that the most obvious candidate is a red herring?

Dunk explains why the gold pieces used for currency in the Seven Kingdoms are called dragons, but why are the silver pieces called stags before Robert's usurpation of the Iron Throne, and come to think of it, why are the gold pieces still called dragons so many years afterward?

The witness to Dunk's "knighthood" was a robin in a thorn tree. A robin symbolizes good luck, happiness, rebirth. The thorn is a symbol of sin, sorrow and hardship. And Dunk was wondering whether his ears were turning red when he was recounting his investiture. Our ears turn red in response to strong emotions, such as embarrassment.

Ghost must be the winged wolf! Or maybe Ghost used the same technique Arya used to visit the docks at King's Landing even though all the gates were closed.

After Roose's successful feint along the Green Fork, Tywin could have pursued Roose, but he withdrew back to the Trident instead. Upon learning that Jaime had been captured and his army destroyed, Tywin retreated to Harrenhal, while continuing to raid the Riverlands with detachments commanded separately by Gregor, Amory, and the Brave Companions. Roose stepped up and seized the Trident. Now recall that four men of House Frey had been taken at the Green Fork and they were ransomed from Tywin’s host at Harrenhal. We can infer, then, that Walder sent men through Roose’s lines at the Trident and through the no-man's land around Harrenhal under safe conduct from Tywin, during which time, a channel of communications among Lannister, Frey, and Bolton was opened, well before the the Battle of the Blackwater. But I don't think Roose actively betrayed Rob until after the Battle of the Blackwater and the the capture of Winterfell by Theon.

Yes, I think the common sense you make in that the Golden Company would not have wanted to fight against a Dothraki horde in Westeros and what we learn in The Lost Lord, Dance 24, make it very unlikely that the fat man's plan ever involved the bait and switch theory, in which Viserys and a Dothraki horde are sent to break the Seven Kingdoms, and Aegon and the Golden Company then arrive to mop up the mess. Tristan Rivers specifically tells us that the first plan involved Viserys joining the Golden Company (and presumably Aegon) "with fifty thousand Dothraki screamers at his back."

When Daenerys VI Game 54 opens, Viserys has already been "crowned," but interestingly Illyrio does not yet know this. Presumably Jorah would have sent word back, but not before Varys's would-be assassin departed with the caravan out of Pentos. Daenerys attempts to persade Drogo into winning the Iron Throne for their son, but Drogo refuses, expressing no desire to cross the Narrow Sea. My guess is that Drogo believes that his end of the bargain is moot now that Viserys is dead. Before Daenerys leaves her hollow hill for the market, she summons Jorah and complains that Her sun and stars is refusing to give their son the Seven Kingdoms, to which Jorah replies, "Have patience, Princess. Do not make your brother's mistake. We will go home. I promise you." I am growing more confident that Jorah is aware of the fat man's plan, or at least a significant part of it.

IIRC the first time we hear of House Bolton, we learn that Roose urged The Ned to execute Barristan. I believe this is the second time we read about House Bolton... Rob to Bran, Game 53 And from a bit later on in that chapter...

In Daenerys I, Game 3, we learn that Illyrio has been aiding the Targlings and showering them with gifts for the past six months. Illyrio, who speaks Dothraki, has brokered a betrothal between Drogo, khal of the greatest of the Dothraki khalasars, and Daenerys, that will benefit Viserys’s claim to the Iron Throne... Notice that Viserys suggests that he does not need Drogo’s entire khalasar of one hundred thousand, including forty thousand fighters, to make good his claim; Viserys believes he only needs ten thousand. This suggests that a higher number of Drogo’s warriors were promised, or at least contemplated, but Viserys seems to want, or have been promised, only ten thousand. In Daenerys II, Game 11, we also learn that, through Illyrio, Khal Drogo has promised Viserys a crown. While this is a foreshadowing of the crown of molten gold Drogo actually gives Viserys, the passage clearly suggests to the reader that Drogo has bargained for his bride by promising to support materially Viserys’s claim. But we can only trust Illyrio so far. So, whether Drogo actually promised to support Viserys’s claim in exchange for his Targaryen bride, or Drogo actually promised Illyrio a number of Dothraki fighters, or Illyrio brokered the marriage to secure Drogo’s friendship in hopes of obtaining his material support, we cannot know with certainty. In any event, Illyrio tells us that Drogo will not aid Viserys until after he presents Daenerys to the dosh khaleen, and then, only “if the omens favor war," suggesting that Viserys should be prepared to wait “another few years." And notice that Jorah supports Illyrio in his counsel to Viserys. A bit later, we encounter the three egg MacGuffins... We are told expressly that these three dragon’s eggs are ancient, petrified eggs from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, and we recall that Illyrio is a trader in dragonbone with a trading network that stretches to the fabled lands beside the Jade Sea. We also learn that the three dragon’s eggs are worth the fortune in horses and slaves that Illyrio collected from Drogo for brokering the marriage pact. Does this mean that Illyrio gave Daenerys to Drogo, so Drogo gave Illyrio a fortune in horses and slaves? If so, then Drogo would not “owe” Viserys a crown, would he? On the other hand, should we believe that Daenerys’s property was, in fact, the property of her husband and khal, and that by giving Daenerys such “a truly magnificent gift,” that Illyrio had upset the gift-giving balance back in his favor? Keep in mind this could be nothing more than a plot device. In his 1993 letter, outlining his earliest concept of A Song of Ice and Fire, we see that The George initially intended to have Daenerys stumble upon a nest of petrified dragon’s eggs on the edge of the Dothraki Sea. In Eddard II, Game 12, King Robert informs Lord Eddard that Lord Varys has sent word of the wedding. Very curiously, the source of the information is revealed to be Jorah, who Robert claims “is now in Pentos, anxious to earn a royal pardon that would allow him to return from exile," and that "Lord Varys makes good use of him." Now, we can connect Illyrio and Jorah to Varys. Of course, the casual first-time reader should assume here that Jorah is Varys’s agent spying on Illyrio and the Targlings for King Robert. But given what we learn later, we know that Varys is actually a double agent in league with Illyrio, and thus using information from Jorah to influence events at court. Back in Daenerys I, Game 3, we learned that Rhaegar’s heir was murdered during the sack of King’s Landing. Here Eddard informs us “that Rhaegar's little girl had cried as they dragged her from beneath her bed to face the swords. The boy had been no more than a babe in arms, yet Lord Tywin's soldiers had torn him from his mother's breast and dashed his head against a wall.” Despite Robert’s hatred of all Targaryens, we learn that he did not send assassins after the Targlings as Viserys suspected; but rather Jon Arryn had persuaded him not to do so. When Eddard pointed out that there was not much they could do about it anyway, Robert agreed . . . This is very confusing: If the Dothraki hate and fear the open sea, why would Drogo agree to send tens of thousands of Dothraki fighters to help Viserys, or any other claimant, to claim the Iron Throne across the Narrow Sea? Daenerys recalls an important scene involving Illyrio and her brother in Daenerys III, Game 23... So, Illyrio wanted Viserys to remain in Pentos. I do not subscribe to the reverse psychology theory, which posits that Illyrio wanted Viserys to go off and die in the Dothraki Sea, so he told him to stay in Pentos. That’s cockamamie to my mind. Illyrio’s blink suggests that he was surprised by Viserys’s intention to go with Drogo. Illyrio clearly expected Viserys to remain in Pentos, where Illyrio could ply him with Lysene bed slaves and Arbor gold. But here is an interesting question: If Viserys had remained in Pentos, would Jorah have gone with Daenerys? He swore his sword to Viserys after all. I suspect that The George did not work this out completely. We know that Daenerys is off to become the Mother of Dragons and the head of a motley host of Dothraki, unsullied, and freedmen, as well as a collection of sellswords, and possibly even Victarion’s Ironmen. And we know that the George, against Illyrio’s wishes, wanted Viserys to get his molten crown in Vaes Dothrak. And, in that way, the George would have Jorah go with Drogo, eventually siding with Daenerys, but keeping tabs on her for Illyrio until they reach Qarth. In Arya III, Game 32, we see Illyrio, incognito, one more time before we meet him again, much later, with Tyrion in Dance. Here we learn that Varys is in league with Illyrio. This tells us that Varys does not want Eddard to discover the truth of the “twincest.” Here we see that Varys believes that the fools, plural, meaning Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion, attempted to assassinate Bran. But we learn by the “purple wedding” that it was Joffrey. In any event, we see that Varys has a great deal of respect for Eddard’s fortitude, if not for his cunning. Notice who gives the command: Illyrio, and who follows the order: Varys. Varys is working for Illyrio, not the other way around. I love this exchange. When the casual, first-time reader reads this, he understands the Hand in question to be Jon Arryn, and that Varys must have caused Jon Arryn’s death, especially since we just learned that he does not want the new Hand learning about the “twincest,” and we learn as we read, that Jon was killed after learning about the “twincest.” But substitute another Jon, Jon Connington, in for Jon Arryn, and you can see what Illyrio might have been suggesting: That Varys attempt to co-opt Eddard into their ulterior plot. Recall, that Drogo will not aid Viserys until after he presents Daenerys to the dosh khaleen, and then, only “if the omens favor war." Perhaps, this was what the author was hinting at when he had Illyrio tell Viserys that he would have to wait. Perhaps Illyrio understood that the real gift to Drogo was not a Targaryen bride, but a dragonlord heir, the stallion who mounts the world. Varys urges his master to hasten Drogo’s material support of their ulterior plot. Is Varys frustrated by Illyrio's patience? Perhaps Varys exercises initiative not intended by Illyrio... In Eddard VIII, Game 33, we learn that Jorah has informed Varys, presumably through Illyrio, that Daenerys is pregnant. amd Varys counsels Robert to have Daenerys and her unborn heir assassinated. In Daenerys IV, Game 36, the Targlings enter Vaes Dothrak, and Jorah expands our understanding of Dothraki gift-giving... This seems to reinforce the idea that Varys, and Illyrio, need to provoke Drogo into action since, even if the gift giving balance is in Illyrio’s favor, he cannot compel Drogo to act as soon as he might wish. When Daenerys VI Game 54 opens, Viserys has already been "crowned," but interestingly Illyrio does not yet know this. Presumably Jorah would have sent word back, but not before Varys's would-be assassin departed with the caravan out of Pentos. Daenerys attempts to persade Drogo into winning the Iron Throne for their son, but Drogo refuses, expressing no desire to cross the Narrow Sea. We have to wonder whether Drogo is still just delaying to honor a commitment to Illyrio until the birth of his heir, or whether Drogo believes that his end of the bargain is moot now that Viserys is dead. In any event, Jorah is anxious to meet a newly arrived caravan from Pentos to see if Illyrio has sent any communication. He shrugs off Daenerys, though, preferring to see the caravan captain alone. Note that the caravan captain was not surprised. Does this mean he was in on it? Was he a fail safe in case Jorah could not prevent the assassination? In the wake of the attempt, Drogo vows... Is this what Illyrio and Varys intended? Keep in mind that when the bargain was struck, Viserys was alive. When the assassination was ordered but set up to be foiled, Viserys was alive. When Drogo vowed to conquer the Seven Kingdoms for Rhaego, Viserys was already dead. In any event, this foreseeable vow by Drogo gives rise to the idea that the fat man's plan was to have Drogo break the Seven Kingdoms, and then have Aegon come in and mop up the mess.

I believe the idea was rooted in the description of the way the Dothraki horde fights, primarily supplied by Jorah in one of the early Daenerys chapters in Game.

Graves are sometimes referred to as hollow hills.

@Frey family reunion, You are theorizing that Oberyn brought a silver-harired, purple-eyed girl, with early childhood memories of lemons and Dorne, to Braavos to exchange for Daenerys Stormborn, correct? if Doran Martell already had Daenerys, why did he send Quentyn to wed the pretender?

Lysa and her sister Catelyn last saw each other in 293 AC. Cat, Game 34. Do we know the circumstances of this reunion?

Is there a current Moments of Foreshadowing thread? I got half a groat says Ser Lothor will face laser Mychel in the lists.

Tyrosh was mentioned because The George actually intended to have her in Tyrosh at one point. Before Game was published, though, he changed her location to Braavos. Presumably he did that for some reason. With Arya in Braavos, and Tyrion's character having an unresolved subplot there, that could be a partial explanation, and my guess is the Blackfyre plot would explain the rest of it. But I don't see any reason for a Dany switcheroo with Dorne.