LynnS

The family tree. Do you have a link for it?

I haven't seen that, so I can't comment about it.

Also, you can't say that someone is inventing stuff out of thin air; if your own argument is supported in the same way. It's a matter of how probable and likely something is based on the few clues we are given. Lyanna's bones were boiled and that is how the Silent Sisters prepare bodies. Why deny it? The reader should be asking the same question as Lady Dustin. If Ned could bring home his sister's bones, why didn't he bring back her husband? Because there were no camp followers, no army around the corner, no vat, no water and no wood. She had to have died somewhere else. Starfall seems the closest place, if she did indeed leave the ToJ, as giving birth became imminent. That seems far more logical to me than forcing a narrative that she died at the ToJ based on Ned's dream. Worse it gets in the way of understanding what the dream is really about.

I think a simpler explanation works better for me. As for the App, I don't have it and I don't remember much about it's launch. I don't think it was just intended just for book readers, but for fans of the show as well, who likely haven't read the books. So since Lyanna dying at the ToJ is included in the App; seems to me this suits the show's purpose. The show runners went with a narrative that is a fan favorite so you can't really say otherwise in the App. Did George give permission to spoil one of the big mysteries? No.

I'm going to go with George is specifically telling us something here. And he puts the question in Lady Dustin's mouth: Why weren't her husband's bones returned? The answer to my mind is that there wasn't an alternative at the ToJ.

I don't think it's a matter of Lady Dustin expressing her wishes. It's a question of Ned doing the right thing given the circumstances. If he could have, he would have sent the remains back. He would have known that his six good men, his friends and companions would want to be returned home for burial. It might account for some of the bitterness he feels about the ToJ. Generally speaking, after years of people combing through the books with a fine toothed comb; even at this late stage, I still think it's possible to find new information and things that have been overlooked. I think this is one of them.

But he does in fact do this for others who have died and certainly Lady Dustin wanted her husband's remains. Why wouldn't he do the same for the men of the north who came with him? https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=silent+sisters&scope[]=agot

If there were camp followers and an army around the corner; why didn't Ned order them to boil all the bodies and return them to their families?

I'm quoting it because she says specifically that Ned brought back Lyanna's bones. So we know how her body was treated and we know that this is something the silent sisters do to prepare a corpse. So we know he didn't return with her ashes. We know that Lyanna wanted to be buried at Winterfell and Ned agreed to it. He knew she was dying and it makes sense that the sisters would have been summoned. We don't know how long Lyanna lingered before dying. We also know that when Lyanna dies Ned remembers Howland and the others coming into the room before he goes into a fugue state and remembers nothing after that. That could have been hours or days. He didn't oversee the boiling of the bones. Someone else did that. Whereas he is very specific about the events at the ToJ. He isn't in a fugue state, he pulls down the towers and builds the cairns, proceeds to Starfall. If there were silent sisters at the ToJ, he would have taken care of all the bodies and have them returned to their relatives. This is the questiion that Lady Dustin asks. Why didn't he bring back her husbands bones. The answer is that there was no alternative but to bury them.

Yes, I agree. I'm not stuck on Starfall. My main point is that I think there is some evidence that Lyanna didn't die at the ToJ.

I agree there are several ways to deal with a body or prepare it for transportation. I think it's highly probable that Lyanna's body was turned over to the Silent Sisters and that she didn't die at the ToJ. That explains to me who 'they' might be. Frankly, I don't even know why the ToJ narrative is necessary to the overall premise. Removing it doesn't change anything except that she dies somewhere else. I don't see why that can't be Starfall or that this would contradict Rhaegar's intentions at all. It make more sense to me that he would keep her in a safe place with attendants at Starfall. Especially since Arthur Dayne is his close confident and friend. Otherwise, I have to think of him as a cruel and callous character. And I don't think he was that at all. Edit: Here's what Lady Dustin says:

Just re-reading your comment and yes I am saying that Lyanna didn't die at ToJ because there wouldn't have any Silent Sisters at ToJ. So if Ned did charge them with preparing her body for transportation back to Winterfell; they would have been at a place where the sisters could be summoned or in a population where they reside. This would answer Lady Dustin's question about why Ned returned with Lyanna's remains, but not her husband's remains - there were no silent sisters at the ToJ. But there were likely silent sisters waiting on Lyanna. We know that she told Ned she wanted to be returned to Winterfell. And we have other instances where Ned did just that for others: https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=silent+sisters&scope[]=agot I'm not sure what the direct evidence could be. I don't have the app but I make the same assumptions about the app as I do for the World Book, that some of the information is hearsay. This isn't an argument against RLJ. This is only about the narrative that Lyanna died at the ToJ. I think it's as likely that she wasn't there and that her body was turned over to the silent sisters in another place.

I didn't say she was at Starfall. I'm suggesting that the mysterious people who were there, (wherever there is) are Silent Sisters who attend to the dead. Especially since Lyanna wanted to be buried in the crypts. Ned has turned over several friends to the Silent Sisters to send the bodies back to their loved ones. I am also doubting that Lyanna died t the ToJ. Where she died, I don't know.

They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. Who are They? Is it possible that they are the Silent Sisters who's business it is to prepare the body for transportation back to Winterfell.

Oh never mind, The knight of tears was Aemon Targaryen.

LOL! Did BR participate in tourneys at all? Is this BR?

Did Brynden Rivers ever win a tourney and crown Shiera Seastar the queen of love and beauty?

Well, when the planetary body shows up, I'll consider it. For now, I'll come to the long night by other means. The Others might be very alien in some respects. A form of life that is very different from the humans in the story.

You could consider that Martin is using magic as a form of technology. The Wall may be a form of magic technology that interferes with the seasons. It's 400 miles long and 700 feet high in places. It's an unnatural barrier that wouldn't normally stand up under it's own weight. .

Yes, forged from a meteorite with magic possibly even the pre-curser to valyrian steel swords of another metal. It's lore seems to be lost. Sounds a lot like bitumen or asphalt, something that Planetos could produce on it's own. Possibly used to make the stone roads of Valyria, the fourth wonder of the world.

I am familiar with astrology and making of natal charts. A conjunction is the strongest aspect in relation to trines, squares and oppositions, leaving out the minor aspects. Transitions and horoscopes are another thing. You are talking about an unknown planet transiting the sun to form a conjunction in a particular sign and a particular house. I don't think there is an equivalent to astrology in aSoIaF. There is certainly a study of the stars (constellations) and 'planetary' wanderers. An interest in celestial events like comets as messengers and heralds. What you describe as an unknown planet with an eccentric orbit like Pluto fits the bill for the great red 'comet'. It's more likely the long night is caused by magic which interferes with the normal seasons. We've been told as much by GRRM.

This is interesting. I hadn't considered that the great red comet could be a planetesimal pushed out of orbit. Or just an object that has the long periodic orbit of a comet. An object that comes close enough Planetos that it burns red (which is uncharacteristic of comets). It makes sense to me that something like this would make it into Dothraki legends and something that is reflected in their language: sun and stars, moon of my life. Two moons in the sky, one that went too close to the sun and burned. That does make me think of Quaithe, with eyes full of stars, who comes to Dany in her dreams, by other means. This seems to be a different kind of magic that we have not yet seen, but very similar to glass candles. Dany describes Quaithe's eyes as wet, so I wonder if this is a scrying method using water, something that would reflect the stars. Searching the text for black water reveals this: The list goes on. There could be something to Quaithe as Shiera Seastar, except that Dany only describes Quaithe's eyes as watery. Shiera had mismatched eyes; one blue and one bright green. I think she would notice, if she was looking at her eyes. We are not given any indication of Quaithe's hair color either, only that she is wearing a mask. Dany would also notice silver/white hair.

I like this idea.

Yes, I was reading this with interest. It triggered something about the Faceless Men and how their 'victims' are marked or chosen and I wonder if they are cursed by someone for the pain they cause or the evil they do to others. In this way they are marked. I'm thinking of the man Arya kills as her first official assassination. The rules are: the person is a stranger to her and can't be someone she loves, hates or knows. Her target is someone who cheats his clients and takes everything from them if their ships instead of paying out the insurance. So they are cursed by their victims and then marked by the many faced god. Then an assassin is chosen to give the gift.

I like this idea. I think the other important sword is the Dawn sword.