LynnS

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Sorry about the random post.  I was bored at work and scanning some stuff I had on my iPad and came across that.  Thought I’d share.

Oh no no!  That's not what I meant at all.  It just feels like we are meant to find these tidbits in unconventional places and not all in one place.  

And the tower of joy... well, well waddya know.

OH NO!  Not the tower of joy   This is starting to feel like a scavenger hunt... a little bit here, a little bit there.

42 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Wouldn't it be something if the singing of the COTF were a deep, BRAAAAAAH like didgeridoo!

LOL - Something along those lines.  Throat singing in the Old Tongue maybe...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throat_singing

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Speaking of your Maori and Aboriginal peoples...the first thing that comes to my mind is that deep throated sound the Didgeridoo makes.

That's really interesting.  I don't imagine the COTF belting out Walking on Sunshine.  Their songs might be more in tune with the sounds of nature; waves or vibrations that can be manipulated or amplified.  

I wonder if Hodor hears the song:

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A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

They left Old Nan in the tower room with her needles and her memories. Hodor hummed tunelessly as he carried Bran down the steps and through the gallery, with Maester Luwin following behind, hurrying to keep up with the stableboy's long strides.

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

A series of chisel-cut handholds made a ladder in the granite of the tower's inner wall. Hodor hummed tunelessly as he went down hand under hand, 

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

The godswood was an island of peace in the sea of chaos that Winterfell had become. Hodor made his way through the dense stands of oak and ironwood and sentinels, to the still pool beside the heart tree. He stopped under the gnarled limbs of the weirwood, humming. 

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

The rustling grew louder. Bran heard muffled footfalls and a low humming, and Hodor came blundering out of the trees, naked and smiling. "Hodor!"

 

A Clash of Kings - Bran II

When Hodor came bustling in, smiling and humming tunelessly, 

 

A bit more about Maori songlines:

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A songline, also called dreaming track, is one of the paths across the land (or sometimes the sky) within the animist belief systems of the Aboriginal cultures of Australia. They mark the route followed by localised "creator-beings" in the Dreaming. These routes serve as crucial connections between individuals and their ancestral lands, carrying intricate geographical, mythological, and cultural information.

At its core, a songline functions as both a navigational aid and a repository of cultural knowledge. Embedded within traditional song cycles, dance rituals, stories, and artistic expressions, these pathways enable individuals to traverse vast distances while reciting the songs that describe landmarks, water sources, and natural features. Notably, the melodic contours and rhythmic nuances of the songs transcend linguistic barriers, facilitating cross-cultural understanding as different language groups interact and share the essence of these ancient narratives.

A unique facet of songlines lies in their role as cultural passports, denoting respect and recognition for specific regions and their inhabitants when the songs are sung in the appropriate languages. This intricate network of songlines interconnects neighbouring groups, fostering social interactions based on shared beliefs and obligations. The perpetuation of songlines through generations sustains a spiritual connection to the land, underscoring the concept of "connection to country," wherein the intricate relationship between individuals and their ancestral lands forms a cornerstone of Aboriginal identity and cultural preservation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songline

I can see the weirnet functioning as a form of songline in GRRM's world.  

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Aboriginal people regard all land as sacred, and the songs must be continually sung to keep the land "alive".

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Molyneaux and Vitebsky note that the Dreaming Spirits "also deposited the spirits of unborn children and determined the forms of human society", thereby establishing tribal law and totemic paradigms.^[9]

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... the labyrinth of invisible pathways which meander all over Australia and are known to Europeans as "Dreaming-tracks" or "Songlines"; to the Aboriginals as the "Footprints of the Ancestors" or the "Way of the Lore".

Aboriginal Creation myths tell of the legendary totemic being who wandered over the continent in the Dreamtime, singing out the name of everything that crossed their path - birds, animals, plants, rocks, waterholes - and so singing the world into existence.^[11]

 

36 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Misleading though. Emphasises that of GRRM doesn't get his finger out, the show is going to become canon 

I think it's generally accepted that the Wall will fall in some fashion or other.  It may even be one of those things revealed to D&D without saying anything about how GRRM intends that to happen.  As you pointed out, it is presented as a known historical event.   It just won't be the same as the show. 

So far the only cross-over canon that makes any sense to me is Aegon's prophecy (or dream) of ice and fire.  I don't think that's inconsistent with the books.

On 4/10/2024 at 6:17 AM, Black Crow said:

Previous entry, posted by the Minions of Fevre River, concerns a colouring book and starts with this curious line:

Long before the Wall fell, the Targaryens reigned with fire and blood.

"Long before the Wall fell" !!!

Is this an inadvertent slip by his minions ?

I had some discussion with JNR on this subject.  I'll pass this on to you:

Re the coloring book "revelation," if you click through the link in the
blog, you get this:

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/731931/house-of-the-dragon-the-official-coloring-book-by-random-house-worlds/

And you can see it says "Game of Thrones -- House of the Dragon" in the
HBO marketing font.

So this HBO-licensed book, and the blog remark about the fall of the
Wall, are only about Show Targs living in Show World.

And on the show, it's true the Wall fell when it was blasted by a
wighted dragon ridden by the Night King.

However, the HBO coloring book and blog entry about it have nothing to
do with Book World.

In Book World, the Wall has not fallen, there is nobody leading the
Popsicles at all, Night's King was a mythical human being (not a
Popsicle), Sansa doesn't marry and is not raped by Ramsay, Theon's
sister is not named Yara, Young Griff does exist, Rickon hasn't been
killed by an arrow, all of Dany's dragons are alive and well and have
never been to Westeros, Jon's true parents are not revealed as or likely
to be Rhaegar and Lyanna, Jon and Dany have never even met, etc.

 I also noticed the text on the Penguin site is pretty blunt:

"Step back into Westeros with this brand new coloring book featuring
over 75 illustrations of your favorite scenes, characters, and show
logos from the hit series House of the Dragon."

So it's definitely limited to Show World, and therefore so is the blog
comment about it.

I really like the idea that Theon will become Bran's prophet when he is taken before the weirwood grove for judgement an execution.  I don't remember who came up with it - somebody here.  Kudos.  It's not really charming but it has a lot of interesting potential plot development attached to it.  It would be quite a twist and I think Theon is too good of a character to waste.

27 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

This just after Pycelle complains of not sleeping as he did whe the was younger. George definitely likes to use the chapter transitions to draw parallels.

I'm thinking in Bran's case, it is to make a connection between Mormont's raven, the three-eyed crow and Bloodraven.  So if you believe that Bloodraven is the 3EC; it's not a stretch to surmise that he is keeping tabs on Mormont and the Night Watch as that strange bird.  So then, why is Bloodraven drawing attention to Ben Jen?   What results is the great ranging in search of Benjen and significantly, finding the horn filled with obsidian, wrapped up in a ranger's cloak.  I think Benjen is too useful to just disappear in the woods.  

On 4/17/2024 at 11:05 PM, Evolett said:

I think there are 3 possibilities:

- dead
- captured with no way of contacting the outside world
- deserted

Great OP.  I enjoyed reading it.  I'd add one more possibility - agent for Bloodraven.  In other words, he has been in contact with BR and is acting on his behalf.  In which case, I would place him south of the Wall.

On 4/16/2024 at 8:18 PM, Evolett said:

While Mormont is speaking, the raven is busy helping itself to an egg:

• The raven was pecking at an egg, breaking the shell. Pushing his beak through the hole, he pulled out morsels of white and yoke.
• Mormont is also having eggs for breakfast, crushing his in his fist:

Frowning, Mormont took his last egg and squeezed it in his fist until the shell crunched.

This is something of a puzzle to me as well.  It reminds me of Bran:

A Clash of Kings - Bran II

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'll cheerfully that I really don't know enough about the Dreamtime to comment sensibly, but it certainly sounds as though GRRM's "Dreamers" could well be connected to the Dreamtime rather than dreaming randomly so to speak  

Nor do I.  What I glean from it is that the dreamtime is related to creation myths and interconnectivity with the natural world.  Also with legendary heroes.  Bran and Bloodraven aren't the only greenseers.  There are cotf connected to the weirnet.  What are they doing?  If they are the dreamers calling Bloodraven; then they are connected or networked to each other.  

Given that 1 in 10,000 skinchangers can be greenseers, can they combine their powers and abilities into songlines (another dreamtime concept)?  Was the great lore that built the Wall a dreaming of a multitude of powerful greenseers?  And do they now maintain the Walls and the seasons? 

38 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Let me stress again - I am in no way suggesting they're 'nice guys'. They just want to be left alone - have all humans clear off out of their land.

I was just joking. 

I'd like to bring up this concept of dreaming or the dreamtime relating to Maori legends.  Here's some blurbs from wikipedia.  Does any of this sound familiar?

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Some of the ancestor or spirit beings inhabiting the Dreamtime become one with parts of the landscape, such as rocks or trees.^[2

Isn't this what Leaf says to Bran about the CotF -that they go into the earth, the stones and the trees.  Varamyr experiences this on his true death before he starts his second life.

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"Dreaming" is now also used as a term for a system of totemic symbols, so that an Aboriginal person may "own" a specific Dreaming, such as Kangaroo Dreaming, Shark Dreaming, Honey Ant Dreaming, Badger Dreaming, or any combination of Dreamings pertinent to their country. This is because in the Dreaming an individual's entire ancestry exists as one, culminating in the idea that all worldly knowledge is accumulated through one's ancestors. Many Aboriginal Australians also refer to the world-creation time as "Dreamtime". The Dreaming laid down the patterns of life for the Aboriginal people.^[20]

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In English, anthropologists have variously translated words normally understood to mean Dreaming or Dreamtime in a variety of other ways, including "Everywhen", "world-dawn", "ancestral past", "ancestral present", "ancestral now" (satirically), "unfixed in time", "abiding events" or "abiding law".^[16

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The concept of the Dreaming is inadequately explained by English terms, and difficult to explain in terms of non-Aboriginal cultures. It has been described as "an all-embracing concept that provides rules for living, a moral code, as well as rules for interacting with the natural environment ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dreaming

At one point, Bloodraven tells Bran that the dreamers are calling him.  I wonder if GRRM is applying a form of the dreaming to

the Cotf and greenseers.  In the everywhen of a greenseers extistance; was the false spring at Harrenhall a dream of spring?

I wouldn't want to shake hands with the undead.  You might come away with more fingers than you started out with.

Martin said very early on that the Others were living, a form of life.  He described them as beautiful.  That does not fit with the tv shows treatment of them.  Because they certainly weren't beautiful.

It's not really clear what they look like from the prologue and if they would be beautiful without the horror attached to them.  Mel tells us that they are made of snow and cold and ice.  So then a crystalline life form that reflects its surroundings?  Rather than a glamour which has been suggested before?  They have a soul of ice, a term Mel uses to describe the Great Other.  Thay are individuals who communicate with voices that sound like ice cracking.  They can skinchange or extend their souls to animate the undead wights.

Yes, GRRM doesn't really say what he has been doing per se.  He's seems more newsy these days.

Wow, Feather... you remember things I said, that I barely remember. 

I think the basic idea was the Wall acted like a dam restricting and containing the flow of cold magic (known as winter), during the summer and releasing it in the winter.  Winters and summers seem to be managed magically.  Perhaps the seasons are being dreamed by greenseers aka giants in the earth.

The Wall also has the function of keeping the servants of the cold from passing.  I think this is something separate from the seasons.  The Wall may also be a source or reservoir of magic as Melisandre tells Jon.  Apparently, he and presumably, she can use it.  If true, that implies that others or Others can use it for their purposes.

I would guess that the Horn of Winter is tied to or uses the magic of the Wall in some way.  We know it was blown once before and the Wall and wards still stand.  So the idea that the Wall has fallen is open to interpretation.

I keep poking around looking for some news or an update.  Is no news, good news?  If he was close, would he say anything about it, or keep it to himself?  There would be an awful frenzy and he'd get no peace.

The problem seems to be too many notes.

19 hours ago, Son of Man said:

The drugs taken by Bran Stark and Daenerys Targaryen briefly removed some the block. They were able to read the history stored in the trees.  The weir tree and the tree in the Palace of Dust are similar.  They hold the memories of the people they fed on.  The warlocks were sacrificing people to their tree just like the Starks were doing for their trees. 

I like this interpretation.  The corrupted heart that Dany sees above the table where she sits is representative of the Warlocks heart tree.    She is seated at a table where she is on the menu.  There are two additional persons seated with her, to whom she is meant to replace as a life source for the undying.  Very much like Bran replacing Bloodraven.

4 hours ago, Hippocras said:

In other words, the lies and secrets are the point.

Ahah!  Interesting thought.  In his speech, at Northwest Grad in 2021;  he makes the point several times,  that a lie can go around the world, before the truth can get its shoes, boots or pants on.  

I don't spend any time on the xyz stuff these days; but there is enough that is incongruent or sketchy for me to keep an open mind. Especially when it comes to prophecy or signs and portents.  Some of that is political theater.

1 hour ago, Tradecraft said:

Do they have anything interesting that I should take a second look? 

I have two persistent, nagging ideas, that I am not willing to throw in the trash just yet - concerning magical objects.  One is the Dawn Sword and the other is the Horn of Winter.  Without going into tremendous detail; I'll sketch out the basic idea.

In Ned's fever dream, he describes the Dawn Sword as 'alive with light'.  This fits neatly into the Red Religion aesthetic of 'life, light and love'; that we he hear repeatedly from Melisandre.  George Martin has also said that we will be amazed with what the Dawn Sword can do.  Well, what can it do then?  

Putting aside all the conjecture about what is made of, or how it was made; my guess is that under the right magical conditions; the sword can produce a light as bright as the sun.  Hence, the name Dawn Sword.  Sunlight is an effective weapon against the wights.  Such a weapon could be used like a shield.

The question is who would wield such a sword or cause it to shine with the light of the sun?  It's interesting that Melisandre shines like the sun when she births a shadow assassin (as witnessed by Davos).  So my guess is that someone who has been reborn as a fire wight, would have the ability to light up the Dawn Sword.  At this point, I'm guessing that Jaimie might be raised as a fire wight, perhaps by Thoros of Myr.  It's curious that Bran (in his coma dream) twice describes someone, that we assume to be Jaimie, as 'shining bright as the sun'.  If Melisandre can create darkness, perhaps another can create light; hence the moniker "Lightbringer".

The second nagging thought is that the Horn of Winter is the broken horn that Jon gives to Sam; telling him to repair it.  The horn is not only cracked; it's also chipped around the rim.  So perhaps a magical metal band was removed to disable the horn.  As it happens; Tormund has metal 'arm rings' he hands over to Jon Snow;  Except for one which he tells Jon was handed down to him from his father.  He's not giving that one up.  I think it's possible that this is the metal band that is missing from the horn in Sam's possession.  And it may be the reason that Mance says that they didn't find the horn.  That they were looking for a horn that fits the ring.  This might also be the only way to repair the horn.  Restoring the ring to compress the horn and seal the crack.

That's the basic premise for these objects.

Cheers.

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Sorry for all the edits...just small corrections in grammar and one book!

And I thought grammar and punctuation were optional.

29 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The description of the white castle made me think immediately of Whitewalls which was on the shores of the Gods Eye a little over a generation ago. It was the location where Lord Butterwell abducted Egg and Bloodraven had the castle destroyed. Interestingly Ned's Ferry is very close by and it's my pet location for where Lyanna was actually found...the ruins of a tower long fallen and not that far from Harrenhal. But I digress...

OHHH! That's very interesting.  

44 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The HBO House of the Dragons is quite good actually. They've stuck to the original story pretty well and the actors are just so darn good! Paddy Considine was incredibly good as Viserys!

There were some interesting things that came out of the show; that made me wonder how involved GRRM was in the writer's room.  Not writing episodes specifically; but throwing out ideas that would work with book canon.   The white castle that Viserys dreams of building.  Cersei dreams of something similar:

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A Feast for Crows - Cersei III

"Would that we could do the same to the rest of this foul castle," said Cersei. "After the war I mean to build a new palace beyond the river." She had dreamed of it the night before last, a magnificent white castle surrounded by woods and gardens, long leagues from the stinks and noise of King's Landing. "This city is a cesspit. For half a groat I would move the court to Lannisport and rule the realm from Casterly Rock."

 

Make of that what you will.

We did to see dragons and something of their nature.  Aegon's prophecy is another that makes sense and doesn't conflict with book canon.

I'm have no sympathy for Larys Strong at all.  I don't care if he has a club foot.  He's a psychopath and a creep.  He probably is skinchanging rats.  The less I see of him, the better.  

1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

It's been awhile since we've had a new topic to discuss and this is one that I've never explored before. It seems far fetched to me. I think the book confirms quite clearly that this was plotted out by Lady Olenna and Littlefinger. But its been fun going over the various passages that are brought up.

Yes, it has been fun to read and I like the psychological exploration.  I don't really have anything to discuss.  I have some general guesses or plot developments I'd like to see.  I hope we get something new soon.  I'm not that interested in House of Dragons except for what we could learn from Cregan Stark. 

12 hours ago, Mace Cooterian said:

Mrs. Cooterian did use a stand up mixer to mix the ingrediants and when she got ready to press them into place, it was a fine powder.  I really didn't think it would set.

I think shortbread is the best way to describe this and Mrs. Cooterian did place a layer of finely chopped almonds on the top.  I would think choclate drizzled on top of that would also be appropriate.

Thanks to you both for participating.  They really are very good.

Yes, I wondered about the powdery consistency.  It's the butter and sugar finely granulated throughout that holds it together in the baking process once it is pressed into the pan.  It was fully mixed with the flour once it started sticking to the sides of the food processor.  

My brother-in-law loves it.  I asked him if he wanted to take them to work, but he doesn't want to share.   It is a shortbread; because Ted Lasso does say he calls it a cookie while the Scots/Brits call it a biscuit (originally to avoid a cookie tax).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortbread

On another subject;  I'm very entertained by Frey Family Reunion's thread on the general forum.  The idea that Sansa meant to poison Tyron; who then accidently poisons Joffrey; makes me laugh like a drain.  Although that's not exactly what FFR has in mind.