Jump to content

Bernie Mac

Members
  • Content count

    1,967
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by Bernie Mac

  1. Bernie Mac

    The Red Wedding Was Justified.

    Nowhere in that quote does it claim he took her without her consent or that he used force. It may well be she confirmed they had sex, which in the medieval world would make him a rapist. Without her confirming it he's not really done anything wrong, certainly nothing worthy of giving up his life to the Wall. Are you under the impression that I am making this up about medieval life? That the wiki on the history of rape, the essay I provided were all fake and that this claim is not true? Who else would have told him? Ned is the Lord of his castle, when he did not want Arthur Dayne and his sister mentioned it was no longer brought up by the servants. Ned is in charge of his children's education, the Maester is not going to be teaching them anything that he does not want them to know. The medieval understanding of rape was different to ours, it had a broader meaning, not just violent non consenting sex. There is not one source in the entire series that claims that Lyanna did not willingly give herself to Rhaegar, it was still rape. And despite the entire realm knowing he was a rapist it has not damaged his reputation among most of the realm, Kevan, Cersei, Barristan, Jaime and many others look at him admiringly. She thought of Daario. If ever there was a man who could rape a woman with his eyes . . . To be sure, she was just as guilty. Dany found herself stealing looks at the Tyroshi when her captains came to council, and sometimes at night she remembered the way his gold tooth glittered when he smiled. The word had more meaning than it does today.
  2. Bernie Mac

    The Red Wedding Was Justified.

    According to the author it is based on the medieval world. Am I the only person in this thread who is aware of that? In fact on GRRM's pet peeves is by authors who do not understand the logistics of the medieval world. GRRM:: I was also reading a lot of historical fiction. And the contrast between that and a lot of the fantasy at the time was dramatic because a lot of the fantasy of Tolkien imitators has a quasi-medieval setting, but it’s like the Disneyland Middle Ages. You know, they’ve got tassels and they’ve got lords and stuff like that, but they don’t really seem to grasp what it was like in the Middle Ages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ GRRM: And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy. And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know. Genuine question to you and the people who have liked your post, are you really not aware that the series is set in a culture that reflects our own middle ages? Is this really what you are arguing about now? By all means quote the people who state that. If you think everyone thinks that you will have no problem backing this up.
  3. Bernie Mac

    The Red Wedding Was Justified.

    Then you are missing the point. A noble girl's consent, if she was an unmarried virgin, was meaningless in the the medieval age, the consent of her father was the issue. By the law of the day Robb had raped Jeyne as he had sex with her without her father's consent. It is the same reason why Ned teaches his children that their aunt was raped by Rhaegar. Their definition of rape was not the same as ours, but in their world what Rhaegar and Robb did would be considered rape. It is likely one of the reasons why Robb felt honour bound to marry her, he had sullied her name. https://www.gla.ac.uk/media/Media_298325_smxx.pdf There are actually characters I dislike in the series, Robb is not one of them. He's kind of vanilla, his siblings and parents are far, far more interesting (due to being more fleshed out) but I don't dislike him. It is not my standards, it is the standards of the medieval world. Read up on the subject. Young unmarried women were not in charge of their bodies, their fathers/patriarchs/matriarchs were, thus them consenting to sex would matter little to their society, it would still be viewed as rape. This is not my feeling on the world, it is the world itself. Obviously we live in a far better and enlightened time, but the middle ages had different rules. Robb, like Rhaegar, raped his captive regardless if their captives consented or even initiated sex.
  4. Bernie Mac

    The Red Wedding Was Justified.

    Robb was in lust, he fancied his prisoner Jeyne and by the standards of the day raped his prisoner. That is correct. The Red Wedding would have happened regardless of Jaimes' release. And from Walder's perspective it was. Some do. I have read many people on this forum who wish Robb married Margaery or some other noble with a bigger army than the Freys after he made that promise. I've seen some argue that Robb was justified in breaking his promise because he had few other options. Like I said to Frenin, it is a bad idea to use absolutes on topics like this where there are a multitude of opinions. This is one of the most discussed topics in the fandom, with hundreds of indepth discussions on this very forum. There is not some clear answer, If there was it would not be a topic that raises its head every few weeks. Do they? 'Those same people'. Generalizations are never a good tactic. lol you called my entire argument erroneous without bothering to justify your stance other than you were correct and you think I'm the only one being condescending in this discussion? Look in the mirror. You mean wrong citing Cersei. As I proved, she did not say what he thought she said. Is this really the hill the two of you want to die on, arguing over something Cersei did not actually say? He was mistaken, it happens to us all, its a very large series, unless you have an eidetic memory the likelihood is that misremembering is going to happen. It's not a big deal. The poster didn't, the poster claimed that Cersei would let House Frey fall as soon as Walder died. The poster was wrong. You do realize that, right? Cersei thought the new Lord of House Frey would be happy to see a few relatives pay for those crimes. Cersei, certainly AFFC onwards, is not a great judge of character on how others react. Not once did I claim he did. Please quote where you think I said that? What I did say that Cersei would be an idiot, even more so than she is in the books, if she was to allow House Frey, one of the few allies to her son's Crown, to fall. That is what I said. Please reread my post and when you reply to this one maybe reread it a few times before wrongly jumping to conclusions on what I have or have not said. It will save us both some time. No, that is joining them over a contract. If your employer decided to not pay you at the end of the month would you not have a problem with that? No, who said it was? I was giving an analogy to what happened to why the Freys were pissed when Robb fucked them over. Nope, reread. Similar scenario, hotel suite. Trashed and then the guests (Robb) refused to pay for the damages. The Hotel (the Freys) would be right to want revenge. Yeah, you have. At no point did I, the person you are replying to, claim it was legal or moral. Once again you are moving the goal posts due to a poorly thought out argument. I'm English, maybe Justified has a different meaning where you are from, but in the UK you can be justified doing something without it being legal or moral, Walder had a valid reason for wanting revenge. Besides, legal is a dumb argument to make given that Robb and Walder were rebels at the time. They were not subject to the laws of Westeros. The only 'law' Walder broke was the law of the gods, if they are real and they truly care about guest rights then he will soon suffer a deserved punishment for that. According to Robb. "We must win back the Freys," said Robb. "With them, we still have some chance of success, however small. Without them, I see no hope. I am willing to give Lord Walder whatever he requires . . . apologies, honors, lands, gold . . . there must be something that would soothe his pride . . ." Robb was in desperate need of the Frey army to help him retake the North. So that's a no, then? You can't prove it via a quote. Most 16 year old boys are horny. Robb does not seem to be any different and the fact that he raped an attractive prisoner and then married her seems to confirm this. “His Grace King Robb is wed.” Bolton spit a prune pit into his hand and put it aside. “To a Westerling of the Crag. I am told her name is Jeyne. No doubt you know her, ser. Her father is your father’s bannerman.” “My father has a good many bannermen, and most of them have daughters.” Jaime groped one-handed for his goblet, trying to recall this Jeyne. The Westerlings were an old house, with more pride than power. “This cannot be true,” Brienne said stubbornly. “King Robb was sworn to wed a Frey. He would never break faith, he -” “His Grace is a boy of sixteen,” said Roose Bolton mildly. “And I would thank you not to question my word, my lady.” Jaime felt almost sorry for Robb Stark. He won the war on the battlefield and lost it in a bedchamber, poor fool. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Westerling mines had failed years ago, their best lands had been sold off or lost, and the Crag was more ruin than stronghold. A romantic ruin, though, jutting up so brave above the sea. "I am surprised," Tyrion had to confess. "I thought Robb Stark had better sense." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeyne is bright as well as beautiful. And kind as well. She has a gentle heart." It is swords you need, not gentle hearts. How could you do this, Robb? How could you be so heedless, so stupid? How could you be so . . . so very . . . young. Reproaches would not serve here, however. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "That night, she . . . she comforted me, Mother." Catelyn did not need to be told what sort of comfort Jeyne Westerling had offered her son. "And you wed her the next day." He was a horny 16 year old who betrayed the Freys because he wanted to get laid. He broke his promise when he married Jeyne, who he barely knew. Many of us, not all, who hear about teenagers who marry after a few weeks of knowing each other would call that lust, not love. His dick made him break his promise. I'm not contradicting myself. Robb being horny is not an issue, Robb being so horny that he married the person he lusted after was the problem. As well as the loss of Frey hundreds, maybe even up to a thousand Frey vassal lives including Walder's heir. There can be more than one reason, you do understand that, right? And? Am I responsible for who you talk to on this subject? I made a connection In the middle ages the Jews features were frequently compared to rats, the Freys to Weasels In the middle ages the Jews were not trusted because they were good with money, the same is true of the Freys Whether it is deliberate by the author or not there are parallels between how people talk about the Freys in the series and how people talked about the Jews in the middle ages. You have, you just have not realized it. No, but you are completely ignoring legitimate reasons why he is angry, like the loss of many Frey lives on Robb's broken promise. By ignoring this and making out the only reason he is unhappy is due to the wedding you are dehumanizing him. They lost their life because Robb made an agreement, an agreement he pissed on when he decided he wanted to get laid and marry the attractive Jeyne. "You have done House Frey a grievous insult, Robb." "I never meant to. Ser Stevron died for me" Robb fucked over the Freys, he himself can admit it. lol there you go dehumanizing him again. Robb goes to war because his father is arrested. I guess only the characters you like are allowed to be upset when their family members are hurt. Why are you arguing in bad faith? Had Robb not made an agreement with the Freys then they would never have fought for him. I presume that you have a job, a job where your employer has made a deal with you to pay you a certain amount at the end of the month for what you have agreed to do. Would you not be angry if your employer refused to pay you what you had agreed after you had already done the work? The Freys bled for Robb's broken promise. They have a right to be pissed. eh? I was more than clear with what I wrote. Why the need to constantly argue in bad faith? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rape As a consequence, the rape of a virgin was often a more serious crime than of a non-virgin, even a wife or widow, and the rape of a prostitute or other unchaste woman was, in some laws, not a crime because her chastity could not be harmed. Furthermore, the woman's consent was under many legal systems not a defense. In seventeenth-century France, even marriage without parental consent was classified as rape In the medieval world what Robb (and Rhaegar) did was rape regardless if Jeyne (Lyanna consented). In our world Rhaegar would still a rapist given he had sex with a 15 year old girl, it's crazy how some people will defend and fetishize such behaviour. Eh? No, not at all. If he was that attracted to her and wanted to have regular sex with her he'd marry her so he could continue banging her. Many marriages happen due to lust, is this the first you are hearing of this? Yeah, they do. My parents did. Many marriages between people who barely know each other discover that they were in lust, not love. Many others have happy, loving marriages, but it genuinely surprises me that you have never heard of people marring out of lust. Either you are being genuine or you are lying to make a point. I said his need for vengeance was justified, which it was. Look, I'm English, I'm using the English definition of the word. I'm sorry if whichever country your from has a different definition of the word, I respect that we may both be correct on this matter and are simply arguing semantics. If the gods are real he will suffer deserved retribution, just as Robb did. A bit more than that. I am using the loss of lives who died for Robb's broken promise as justification for Walder's revenge. Yeah, there is. I have given four quotes that insinuate that Robb was acting as a dumb teenage boy, which he was. lol so it's Walder's fault. Not Robb for breaking his promise? Walder would have accepted his son dying, but his son dying for a broken promise is an insult. Just like your manager refusing to pay you your earned salary would be an insult to you, no? No, not one did I say that. Please stop creating straw man arguments. The Freys supported Robb due to a deal he made, they bled, some died, for that deal. They fulfilled their part of the deal, Robb refused to do his. They have a right to be angry and seek retribution. I'll respond to the rest of your post later, it is getting tiring replying to so many straw arguments.
  5. Bernie Mac

    The Red Wedding Was Justified.

    You wrongly claimed that Cersei would let House Frey fall as soon as Walder was dead. You were wrong and I quoted the books to show that you were mistaken. Is it that hard to admit that you may have been mistaken about something written in a huge volume of work or are you just going to double down on what you wrote rather than admit that you may have been mistaken?
  6. Bernie Mac

    The Red Wedding Was Justified.

    Excellent, we are on the same page. Tywin did not kill anyone at the Red Wedding. Glad you agree. And they were still soldiers. On their way to fight another war. Just like the soldiers at Oxcross who were sleeping it is their commanders fault that they were not more alert. At no point have I or anyone else claimed otherwise. What is with the constant need to move the goalposts? Can none of you accept a claim was wrong rather than just change the entire argument? It is a fantasy series, obviously the majority of people are going to side with the primary characters and be biased towards them. That is how fiction is often set up. lol the condescension. Get over yourself. Are you so arrogant that the only reason you can conclude that people disagree with you on a subject is that they are a contrarian? People have different opinions, especially when it comes to an event in a work of fiction. You are replying to me, not some nameless bogeyman. From the Stark side I think Cat is one of the greatest characters in the series, Sansa and Arya's are both heroic and Ned's chapters were pure medieval noir, one of my favourite genres in literature. Robb had the potential to be one of the greatest leaders in Westeros, but he was also a teenager who made mistakes down to his inexperience. Not everyone loves the Starks, that is not a crime, but by the same token not everyone who makes a point about the Starks that you deem to be negative does so because they hate the characters. Many people are not as invested in these fictional characters as you are, some of us can see characters who have both negative and positive traits. It is bad enough that civilized debate about politics is impossible online without someone ignoring your entire reply only to invalidate it because you are a Dem/Republican but for that to happening about literature is just ridiculous. People like yourself who are desperate to shut down discussion by labelling anyone whose opinion you don't like as a hater is a cancer to nuanced debate online. Well done on that! Like Robb. Robb had no problem with killing the Children in the Twins in AGOT. "Damn the man," Robb swore. "If the old fool does not relent and let me cross, he'll leave me no choice but to storm his walls. I'll pull the Twins down around his ears if I have to, we'll see how well he likes that!" It is a medieval world, many would resort to children casualties if it meant getting their way. Cowardly and pathetic you say? By all means quote 5 characters who use call it that. It was hugely dishonourable, no one in the books calls it cowardly or pathetic. You are making up your own head cannon. The soldiers were not invited to the wedding, Robb was going home and taking his army with him. They were outside the castle and were not provided food. They were at war and had constantly caught enemy armies by surprise, they should have known better. It was the intelligent option. It removed Robb and his generals from the board. Military it was a clever move, a dishonourable move, but an intelligent one no matter what. Cowardly would be doing nothing. Allowing Robb who had fucked the Freys over to get away with it. That was not Walder, or Tywin. That was a Northman. And who claimed anything about outsmarting? Can you please actually reply to what I have said rather than write paragraph after paragraph of points you imagine I have made. This need to strawman and argue in bad faith is quite telling at this point. What am I saying? What do you think I have said? You are making up points that I have never said. That would have been pragmatic, but Walder would not have got his revenge for the thousand or so Frey men who had lost their lives over Robb's broken promise. But reread what I wrote, at no point did I claim Walder was clever in what he did. You have imagined an argument never made. Here is the breakdown of the conversations YOU: The one clever bit of the RW was the way that Tywin managed to shift the entire focus of Northern hostility away from House Lannister and squarely onto The Freys. ME: The clever thing was eradicating the majority of the Northern force, by having them kill each other. There was 7,000 Northern soldiers at the Twins. 3,500 on each side of the 'battle' Why are you bringing Walder into this when your original point was about Tywin, I quoted that and replied about Tywin. Either you are disingenuous and are deliberately misrepresenting what I have said or you have issues with reading comprehension. Which is it?
  7. Bernie Mac

    Renly's Plan and what he knew.

    Because his daughter would be Queen and his grandchildren would be royalty, expected to be powerful and influential in their own right. Being the King's father-in-law would be a boon for Mace, it usually comes with extra influence, as does being the Kings brother-in-law. Jaime was made Warden of the East because he was the King's brother-in-law. Robert, even with sons, is still the best match in the entire kingdom. Ancient Walder Frey with hundreds of heirs is still able to get Houses invested in marrying women to him, Robert is the King. The laws of the realm. His royal siblings are not the children of penniless whores, they'd have their own defences. No one was expecting that Joffrey would murder his brother Edric, the expectation is that family would care for each other. It would be Robert and Margaery's job to make sure all the children got along, but even if they did not, it would be within Robert's power to ensure their power and influence that would protect them when he eventually dies. Robert was only in his mid 30's. He was still a relatively young man.
  8. Bernie Mac

    The Red Wedding Was Justified.

    They didn't willingly join, they joined for a price, a price that Robb refused to pay. How exactly am I twisting that? If you ae trying to sell your House, someone agrees to buy it, trashes the House before they pay for it and then back out of the deal are you not going to be angry and want justice? Who was claiming it was either moral or legal? You are moving the goalposts here. Justified merely means you have a good reason for something, at least here in the UK it does. Walder had a good reason for wanting his revenge. As for moral that is up to the individual to decide his moral compass, and legally it is a sore spot considering as rebels Robb was not protected by the laws of Westeros. Theologically it was wrong, if the gods exist in Westeros and they actually care about 'guest rights' then Walder and his kin will pay for their sins in the next life. Because he has to, because he has no other option. It is too late to make amends. If you think I am incorrect about something please quote from the books to disprove what I said. Sure he did. He fancied Jeyne and, by medieval law, raped her and then married her. He was horny. How is a 16 year old being horny ridiculous? Have you never met a 16 year old boy? Teenagers make idiotic decisions all the time, Robb is no different. He was horny, attracted to Jeyne and sickened at the idea of having to marry a weasel looking Frey. He allowed his cock to guide him when he was feeling down about Winterfall and the Battle of Blackwater. Men make weak decisions, this was a weak decision on Robb's part. And literally no one cares about Robb sleeping with other people. They care about him breaking his promise that hundreds of Frey men had lost their lives for. All he had to do was marry a Frey, instead he got horny and slept with a female prisoner. When did he throw this fit? Can you quote it? "the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I'll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh." Seems he's pretty pissed at Robb thinking all will be forgiven over an apology. I get it, a lot of fans of the series want to dehumanize the Freys, much like the Jews were in the medieval times (both were called rats/weasels and looked down upon for being good with money) but it is not just the Starks and who are capable of being angry over their family members being killed. Can you prove this? Him thinking with his dick was more justified than Walder losing the son he had been grooming for 60 years His father was querulous and stubborn, with an iron will and a wasp's tongue, but he did believe in taking care of his own. All of his own, even the ones who had displeased and disappointed him. Even the ones whose names he can't remember. Once he was gone, though . . . When Ser Stevron had been heir, that was one thing. The old man had been grooming Stevron for sixty years, and had pounded it into his head that blood was blood. Who said he should? He, like Robb, will most likely suffer retribution for what he had done. Deservedly so in my opinion. No, but if I am responsible for the death of your son, grandson and possibly as many as a thousand of your men then yes you are justified in murdering me. The problem here is you want to ignore all the human life lost their life on Robb's promise. No, I have been very clear with the logic I am using. By all means disagree with my opinion, but don't make up an argument I never made. My argument is clear and it is not the argument you are presenting. Are there? Name them.
  9. Bernie Mac

    The Red Wedding Was Justified.

    First of all if you are citing Cersei then you must be desperate. Cersei, AFFC onwards, is constantly making bad decisions that puts herself in a worse situation whether it is ignoring Kevan's advice, antagonizing the Iron Bank or arming the Faith. Every time she thinks of a short term solution it creates a long term problem. Pissing off the Freys, holders of the Twins, Darry and Riverrun as of AFFC, is a ridiculous idea. Secondly I'm pretty sure she does not say what you think she says. "Lord Walder will never sacrifice his own," said Pycelle. "No," mused Cersei, "but his heirs may be less squeamish. Lord Walder will soon do us the courtesy of dying, we can hope. What better way for the new Lord of the Crossing to rid himself of inconvenient half brothers, disagreeable cousins, and scheming sisters than by naming them the culprits?" Unless I'm mistaken at no point does she say she is willing to let House Frey fall. Where in the books is that claimed?
  10. Bernie Mac

    The Red Wedding Was Justified.

    You don't understand why Walder was justified in seeking revenge? Walder fulfilled his part of the deal, Robb's forces was allowed through his lands Every battle Robb's forces fought in was with Frey assistance Between 500- 1k Frey men lost their lives on Robb's promise Including his heir Stevron And his grandson who was butchered as a prisoner under Robb's protection Personally I think Walder should have taken another option, a more pragmatic approach, but he was certainly justified in wanting revenge against a 'king' who had made it clear that he could not be trusted to keep his promise. Robb proved his promises mean shit, Walder was just offering him a similar promise, one he had no intention of fulfilling. He backed out after the price was paid in blood. And as he points out, without the Freys he had no hope. He only tries to make amends because he has no other option. Sure. Robb had already proven that his word was meaningless. Walder was paying him back in kind. It is fair to say that Walder had valid reasons to break his promise to someone who had done the same to him, Robb broke his promise, after receiving payment in blood, because he was horny. Both had reasons for breaking their promise to the other, Walder's reasons are more justified. Robb's reasons for the loss of Stevron and hundreds if not a thousand Frey lives is less so.
  11. Bernie Mac

    The Red Wedding Was Justified.

    You are really going to have to stop exaggerating your posts. There are thousands of characters in the books, quote just 10 of them praising Robb's military might. And what does that have to do with your original point that I disagreed with? At no point did I claim that Robb was not praised, you are moving the goalposts. Maybe reread your orginal comment and then reread what I said to you. My disagreement had zilch to do with how effective Robb was in battle. Sure, but that is a separate discussion to what is being talked about now. There is no need to go off onto a separate tangent when I've not made any negative comment on Robb's ability to lead in my reply to you. Again, reread what I actually said. You are jumping to conclusions that was not made in what I wrote. They are not exactly the same, as I already said, they were both battle strategies. Obviously the Red Wedding was far, far more dishonourable than Robb attacking a sleeping, untrained army of green boys. But some of Robb's victories were not honourable either. The objective in war by some is victory even if that means sacrificing honour. I've not revered it. I've just pointed out that it was a successful strategy. I literally call it very dishonourable in the post you have quoted it. How exactly is that being revered? Again, you need to stop talking as if everything is an absolute, there is middle ground. It can be both a battle strategy and dishonourable. War is often dishonourable, the Freys actions at the Red Wedding amongst the most dishonourable we have seen in the series. How so? How is it stupid? You called his point stupid. How so? Tywin did not want his own men killed when the option was there for his enemies to kill themselves. Firstly are you under the impression that you are the very first person I have ever spoken to? You are not, most people I communicate with do not speak in absolutes when they don't mean to. Now that is just the average person I communicate with, I understand that your social circle, both online and in real life, may well communicate to each other like that but don't presume your echo chamber is the norm. Not trying to be rude, just a heads up. Secondly based on what? Prove it? Come up with actual evidence that the majority of the North would not care about their Lords and the majority of their army being killed in battle? Have you never studied history? Rarely is the losing side happy with defeat and the death of its people. Scotland, one of the inspirations for the Northern people, were never happy when they were beat by the English in England and vice versa. Not once did I claim it was the exact same. I pointed out that you were mistaken in your claims. Who is HS? I was very clear in what I said. Tywin, like all successful commanders, cares about unnecessary casualties of war. If there is a option to beat an enemy army without dropping blood from your own men then most commanders will take it, Tywin included. We have seen him do this at least three times in the series Castamere The use of the Mountain Clans in the battle of Green Fork The use of the Freys and Boltons to rid himself of Robb He's not vainglorious. You are the one making a claim, I have given you examples disproving it. You need to prove your assertion that "and since when the man cared that much about cassualties in war??" You made an unsubstantiated claim, prove it. Then you clearly don't understand the words you are using. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/strategy The meaning of strategy is very clear, in your own interpretation of Tywin's actions you have described a strategy to rid himself of the Northern threat. That is a strategic move. 1) Robb did not trust the Freys, he makes this clear. He trusted his army "Robb looked more amused than afraid. "I have an army to protect me, Mother, I don't need to trust in bread and salt." Now just because Robb was betrayed by his own Northern army does not mean Lords are going to stop using their own vassals when they go to war 2) I imagine that Lords who have fucked over the Freys are not going to trust their 'word' at the Twins. But their allies are not going to have the same problem.
  12. Bernie Mac

    The Red Wedding Was Justified.

    How was Robb justified in backing out of the wedding after the Freys had paid their portion of the agreement? How had the Freys wronged him at that point? The Freys went overboard in their need for revenge, but their was cause for it due to Robb's actions. Robb had no such justification, he was just a horny teenager.
  13. Bernie Mac

    The Red Wedding Was Justified.

    No, not very different. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that matter. You speak for yourself, you don't speak for everyone. You do realize that, don't you? The fact that multiple people disagree with you kind of proves that not everyone sees it that way. Again, who is 'no one'. Are you unable to speak in anything but absolutes? Some, maybe even the majority did not like it, but saying 'no one' is not really true. Of course not. No army was involved. There was multiple armies involved at the Red Wedding, it was battle strategy to remove one of those armies as a threat to Roose and Walder. That is battle strategy. Hugely dishonourable strategy, but strategy nonetheless. I'm sorry, what on earth does that have to do with my reply you have quoted? How so? And? This option allows him to do so without using any of his own forces. It was a completely bloodless victory from Tywin's viewpoint. And of course some would care. Stop using absolutes for every statement you make. Are you incapable of nuanced thought? Some in the North would care that their Northern army was obliterated in the South and would want revenge. Rickard Karstark is an example of such a matter, his two sons were killed fairly in battle and he cared. Since he was a teenager when he refused to send his own men down Castamere were thousands would die and instead looked for other means to secure victory. Designed for defense, the mines at Castamere had never been taken. There were only three ways down into them, all cramped, narrow, twisting, and studded with deadfalls, pits, and murder holes. Two armored knights, standing side by side, could hold the largest tunnel against a thousand, for attackers had no way around, and if they tried to cut their way past, defenders would be pouring boiling oil and pitch down on them from murder holes above as they fought. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neither did he intend to send men to die in the dark, fighting their way down. Instead Tywin Lannister commanded that mines be sealed. Obviously he cares about casualties in war. He's not vainglorious. If you think all that then you clearly recognize that neutralizing his army at the Twins, before Robb could do all that, is battle strategy.
  14. Bernie Mac

    The Red Wedding Was Justified.

    The two are not mutually exclusive, he can want both. Peace was his goal as peace is easier to manage and less expensive than war. There is textual evidence for the Freys to be fearful of the consequences of a wrathful Tywin. Whether he would have been is another matter, but being fearful of the the potential repercussions is a valid concern even if it never materialized. We are told in the books who the masterminds behind it was, Roose and Lame Lothar. Tywin condoned it, rewarded the Houses who did it, but there is nothing in the books that point to him being the mastermind. Unless you have a different understanding of the word 'mastermind' than the English dictionary I'm failing to see how you have came to the conclusion. If that was the case why didn't he? With an 80k army at his disposal why did he not do just that in the Riverlands instead of accepting the fealty of his enemies. Same goes for the captured Stormlords, Reachlords and Crownland lords after the battle of Blackwater. He had the means of obliterating them all, he chose not to and allowed the ones who wanted peace to come back under the Crown's rule.
  15. Bernie Mac

    The Red Wedding Was Justified.

    Tywin didn't kill anyone. Frey and Northmen did all the killing. And while it was more than a few people, it was not that much more. Many of the guests in the castle were taken hostage, some killed but we are talking a maximum of hundreds. The soldiers outside, not protected by Guest Rights, are another matter. Yes. Correct. The only people who can respect or condone this strategy are the people who respect or condone this strategy. Brilliant insight! Sure. They also respect victory. Unless they are sleeping? Like Robb often did, attack sleeping enemies. The green lads at Oxcross were reportedly untrained and unarmed when Robb slaughtered them. It's war, victory is more important than honour. True. I agree with this. I feel Walder was justified, but obviously there are negative consequences to his actions. To a lesser extent this is true for every leader in a war. The clever thing was eradicating the majority of the Northern force, by having them kill each other. There was 7,000 Northern soldiers at the Twins. 3,500 on each side of the 'battle'.
  16. Bernie Mac

    The Sack of Darry

    Sorry, what is your point? Do you disagree with the my point that the Northern soldiers were pillaging from the Riverland smallfolk?
  17. Bernie Mac

    The Sack of Darry

    Why would you? Cat is the first POV we hear about the Riverlands and she is not going to be told that, the Riverlords who themselves have been burning their own fields to starve the Lannisters are not going to be reporting Northern atrocities to Cat. Arya is told that but she only makes her move away from Harrenhal after the Blackwater and Brienne hears about the monstrosities of the Wolves and Lions in AFFC. Which character were you expecting to hear this from? "Would I tell you if I did?" The man spat. "Likely it were wolves' work, or maybe lions, what's the difference? The wife and I found them dead. The way we see it, the place is ours now." - A Storm of Swords - Jaime II This, according to the timeline document, happens less than three weeks after the battle of Blackwater. Already Wolves are mentioned in the same breath as Lions. That does not suggest that the smallfolk were particularly fond of them. The books are full of lions and wolves being a blight on the smallfolk of the Riverlands https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=lions+and+wolves&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=acok&scope[]=asos&scope[]=affc It is naïve to think that it is a recent development, an army has to eat and the monologue of the broken man explains exactly how armies operate during a war. "If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they're fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it's just a short step to carrying off their daughters too. And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They don't know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they're fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground. When Robb marched South he had no idea what he was doing, he did not know there was going to be a year long war, he did not even have the supplies to stay at Moat Cailin. Roose's army would need to feed themselves, they'd be pillaging from the smallfolk. Lem glowered. "Your lion friends ride into some village, take all the food and every coin they find, and call it foraging. The wolves as well, so why not us? No one robbed you, dog. You just been good and foraged." Who would you hear it from? The reason we hear of the atrocities in the Riverlands is Jaime, Brienne and Arya are all POV characters interacting with the smallfolk in the Riverlands who tell the POV/reader of the atrocities in the region, committed by both Lions and Wolves. There is no one in the Westerlands doing the same. What we do know is that Robb is doing what Tywin did to the Riverlands Without siege engines there was no way to storm Casterly Rock, so the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they'd inflicted on the riverlands. Robb was doing the same, we just don't have a POV characters witnessing it. The thousands of cattle stoles will have had smallfolk protectors, men and women trying to defend their livelihoods and being killed in the process. if the Northern men had no problem raping smallfolk in the Riverlands it stands to reason they were doing the same to the smallfolk in the West. One of the annoying things about the fandom is how some have assumed there is good and bad and only the bad guys act badly during war, both sides do. The smallfolk are screwed over by all sides.
  18. Bernie Mac

    Why did Stannis marry Selyse Florent?

    2,000 of which is foot. There is a huge difference between a foot soldier and a knight. The Karstarks can field more men, but I'd take the Florent army against the Karstark army in a battle. The Florents are far richer, influential and prestigious than the Karstarks. Why would Robert and Jon have Stannis marry a Karstark, a region they are not worried about rebelling? Did they have women available at the time? Were they willing to make a marriage alliance to the Baratheons at that time? Did Robert and Jon Arryn perhaps think that a Florent option would be better than a Hightower considering Mace was married to a Hightower and could expect their support if he rebelled?
  19. Bernie Mac

    The Sack of Darry

    That would be true in the earlier phase of the war. Robb's foot was around 18k, they did not have the supplies to last at Moat Cailin so they'd only have one means of feeding themselves in the Riverlands, by taking from the local populace. This is just what happens in war, it is brutal for the smallfolk.
  20. Bernie Mac

    Why did Stannis marry Selyse Florent?

    She is not pretty now. We have no idea what she looked like almost a decade ago when she married Stannis. Plus, appearance is not really that high on list of reasons why nobles marry. 11 years of being married to Stannis might do that to anyone. eh? Davos is not his friend, he's his vassal who seems to worship him. I think we can all get along with people like that. His 'actual care of the realm' is entirely meaningless a decade ago when they married. And Selyse seems to be supportive of her husbands quest to save the realm. If anything this makes them a perfect fit, most wives with common sense may have tried to talk him out of it. At the time of the Wedding she may have just been another granddaughter of the current Lord Florent. Stannis did not marry her to inherit Brightwater Keep, so her place in the succession line is immaterial. Nobody thinks Roslin Frey is the worst marriage for Edmure amongst the Frey women despite the fact that she comes behind many 'sisters', nieces and grand nieces in the succession line. We have no idea who Ryam was married to, it may well be that Selyse had the best pedigree out of all the Florent women who were available to marry. Ryam himself may have been far more noteworthy than his brothers while he lived. Stannis had a Florent Castellan on Dragonstone, a Florent Hand and a Florent Admiral. Stannis points out in the aftermath of the Blackwater that the majority of his men are Florents. The marriage was not arranged so Stannis could have the military power to conquer the throne from Robert's children.
  21. Bernie Mac

    The Sack of Darry

    Fire and Blood. In the aftermath of the Dance of the Dragons it is pointed out that the Tully's were less powerful than a number of their vassals such as the Brackens, Blackwoods, Vances and Freys in terms of military strength and land. It is possible that has changed in the last century, but I'm not sure how given the Blackwoods and Brackens may have grown even more powerful in that time given their closeness to the royal family during the reigns of Aegon IV, Aerys I and Aegon V. I'd also imagine that the Freys have grown more powerful as time has gone on rather than weaker.
  22. Bernie Mac

    The Sack of Darry

    Not all of it. "Pardoned?" The old man laughed. "For what? Sitting on his arse in his bloody castle? He sent men off to Riverrun to fight but never went himself. Lions sacked his town, then wolves, then sellswords, and his lordship just sat safe behind his walls. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Pardoned?" The old man laughed. "For what? Sitting on his arse in his bloody castle? He sent men off to Riverrun to fight but never went himself. Lions sacked his town, then wolves, then sellswords, and his lordship just sat safe behind his walls. There are two armies in the Riverlands, both are raping and pillaging from the local populace and the Brotherhood are also doing the same "Be wary, woman. The next men you meet may not be as honest as my lads. The Hound has crossed the Trident with a hundred outlaws, and it's said they're raping every wench they come upon and cutting off their teats for trophies." Tywin's invasion certainly started the war in the Riverlands, but Lions and Wolves alike are doing as they please.
  23. Bernie Mac

    Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

    He may have even improved on it. They were powerful in Dance of the Dragons and the Dunk & Egg books, but there is no indication that they were the most powerful vassal House in the Riverlands at that point. Walder has ruled for at least half a century, he was Lord when Tywin was 10, he may have done more than maintained the status quo, which itself is not easy, many Houses fall in power regardless of their positon, but actually made them the power they are in the current series. He sanctioned it, but we are told that the organization was down to Roose and Lothar. But he himself has done far, far more than the Red Wedding. Sure, and the author made a decision to give Merret Frey a POV chapter and have him explain to the readers some of the positives about Walder Frey's character. He's multi dimensional, he's not just the perpetrator of the Red Wedding. As Patriarch's go he is one of the best in Westeros going by that chapter. But the reader learns other things about him and your post not only ignores them but contradicts them. I'm just pointing that out. Nowhere in the books does it claim or suggest that he's a hedonist, that seems to be your own head cannon not supported in the books. This is what tends to happen in fiction, protagonists are imagined to have no redeeming features. What did he do to his own daughter? And how does showing remorse change your earlier claim that he is a hedonist? That he does not care about his family? You said a lot of things that are not backed up by the books or actually contradicted them. Few are claiming that Walder was right (anger justified, yes, but he took it too far) in what he did at the Red Wedding, most of us are on the same page about that, but that is one incident in his life, your post was about his entire life. How is that a bad thing for him or his people? I didn't realize how much in favour some are for war in this fandom. It makes him many things, cunning being one of them, but also intelligent. How is it a trick? Hoster did the same in Robert's Rebellion. He ignored his lord and stayed neutral till his price was met, Cregan did the same during the Dance, demanding a payment to pick a side and still only sending a token force while he arrived when the war was over. House Tully during that conflict stayed neutral despite their promise to the late King. Plenty of powerful Lords get away with it. It is not about luck it is about understanding your own positon. He did not. So your claim that he only joins the winning side is kind of contradicted by this. He joined the rebels at a time when no one knew that the Reach and Stormlands would rebel. He was not eager, Cat had to convince him and she did so by using his pride, not his need for material gain. Sure. Why is that bad? He's only following in the footsteps of Hoster, Cregan Stark and many others. Where is your evidence that he is a hedonist? Please provide it. Again, any evidence of him actually being a hedonist. To an extent they do. We get to see the Frey's reaction at Riverrun, Harrnenhal and with Robb to Robb's betrayal, they all feel betrayed. Yup. This is not that uncommon. The Baratheon brothers can barely stand each other, the Tully brothers were not speaking, the Corbray brothers dislike each other, one of the Hunter sons murdered his father and his planning on doing the same to his brother. Merret should be scared of his positon, he is useless and a great-nephew should not be responsible for caring for him. The Starks are not that different. There are other Starks, second cousins to Ned, they do not reside at Wintefell. Robb's has cousins in the Vale, he does not even know their names. Many Houses are going to be like this, Edwyn or Black Walder are not going to feel the need to look after other branches of their family who are useless. Not really. There is ambition and distrust in most families, but the Freys are also pretty loyal to each other, we see the Frey's reaction to the missing Frey's at White Harbor and the death of young Walder at Wintefell. Like many families there is a mix but there is enough evidence that many of the Frey's do have a bond and loyalty to their House. Jesus. This is the middle ages, not a commune in San Francisco. Again these are all assumptions based on nothing but your dislike of the character. Walder was mean to the Starks ipso facto he has been mean his entire life. More head cannon nonsense. Is it really that hard to grasp that Walder, who did an evil thing at the Red Wedding, is still a human being who can care for his family despite a horrific act of revenge he committed at the age of 91? We do. And it is well. lol come on, not he does not. He is blunt, he is not humiliating them. Again, this is the middle ages. How is that 'quite probable'? What evidence from the books make that quite probable? How does that benefit Walder? There are plenty of hacky writers who do books like this, characters are either black or white, GRRM has more nuance than that. You claimed Walder was a hedonist, I was just pointing out that nothing in the books suggests this, no description from othe characters, no examples from the Twins or how Walder and the Freys present themselves. But that is not the case. We know his Symond's wife had multiple handmaidens. We know how expensive it is to make a son a knight, Lord Sunderland has seven sons and it is bankrupting him with them becoming knights. There is zero evidence that his family are thankful to have food. That is just pure bullshit. A hedonist would ignore these standards and just spend on what pleases him. The fact that Walder does not, he's the only one of Robb's Lords willing to pay the ransoms for his sons and is willing to pay a huge dowry to see his daughter married speaks that his primary concern is not about self gratification. There is much evidence to contradict your claim that he is a hedonist, and none to support it. I don't say so, the books say so. No need to be petulant. What part of that post do you disagree with? I'm happy to discuss it cordially with you, but please don't act like a child and just ignore it because it offers an alternative and logical reason why someone who grew up when hundreds of thousands of people had died in a short period of time may value family. How does he treat the current one? She is? Please back this up. Please share? What can she expect after Walder's death? No, he is saying there will likely be a power struggle and that the more distant and useless members will not be supported in the same way that Walder did. Merret is a drunk, that is all he has done in the last 20 years. So your earlier claim that the Frey's only received food under Walder is again disproved. He probably would not, not unless he started to prove useful. Which is the same of most Houses, few Houses give their members, let alone ancillary members such a free ride that Merret has received these last 20 years. Again, same for any noble in his positon. This is not just limited to Freys. Nobles are expected to contribute to society, Merret does not. Merret's reputation is as the biggest drunk in the Twins. That is through his own doing, since he failed to become a Knight he was happy to give into gluttony and excess and it is only now, with the death of Stevron, the soon to be death of his father, that he is worrying about the consequences of a life wasted and is trying o show Ryman and his sons that he is not a complete waste. How does a figure of speech show that he does not care whether they live or die? lol he's not being literal? He is showing how many sons he has, he is not literally asking to have such a competition. Cat has came into his home and threatened him with the army outside, he is commenting on the lack of respect he gets from the likes of the Starks, Tullys and Lannisters and shows pride in the size of his family, but he is not trying to sacrifice them. Is that really what your take away from that chapter was? How is she sacrificed? She marries Edmure. She does not get to be Lady of Riverrun, but she is not being sacrificed.
  24. Bernie Mac

    Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

    He's likely not the smartest, but he's certainly smart. Not Maester smart, but certainly in Lordship terms. The only time the word intelligent is used in the entire book series is in regard to the ancient Walder https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=intelligent Walder has been in charge for House Frey for decades and either they have grown to become the most powerful House in that time or he has maintained that position, which is no easy feat, and has done so without royal favour or support from the Lord of the Riverlands. As for organizing a bloodbath, we know that it was Roose and Lothar who organized that. Furthermore Walder is ancient by their standards. He's 92 and he's only ever committed one 'bloodbath'. Had he died a few months earlier he'd have gone 91 years without ever committing a bloodbath, it seems odd that this should define his character and his more than half a century of rule. If anything the defining part of his rule is the fact that he has always been cautious about going to war. That is not really true. Robert is a hedonist, spending his time drinking and fucking and taking zero responsibility for his actions. Walder is not, quite the opposite, his dedication to family shows this. And when he goes, everything will change, and not for the better. His father was querulous and stubborn, with an iron will and a wasp's tongue, but he did believe in taking care of his own. All of his own, even the ones who had displeased and disappointed him. Even the ones whose names he can't remember. Once he was gone, though . . . When Ser Stevron had been heir, that was one thing. The old man had been grooming Stevron for sixty years, and had pounded it into his head that blood was blood That is not the description of someone who is a hedonist. Robert, Tytos and even the small details we know about the Lord of Tarth all make them sound more like hedonists than Walder, even unmarried Edmure who spends his time in brothels and friends falls more into this category. Walder Frey is a Lord in the middle ages of a population of hundreds of thousands. he does not need to marry to have sex. He does not need to care for his bastards, he choses to do so. The TV show is obviously not book cannon but GRRM clearly was closely involved in the first season and the Frey's looked more like stereotypical Puritans than hedonists. Even in the books we know of their wealth through the appendix, from Cat, from other characters and even from the Dunk and Egg series but in the Twins there is not signs of ostentatious spending, none of the Frey's, like Renly, Mace, or the Tywin and Jaime are clothed in particularly notable clothing (either expensive or cheap) and the only time Walder throws around cash is in dowries for his daughters, to pay the ransoms of his captured sons at Harrenhal and later with the BWB or to bribe the Household of White Harbour. This is not the spending of a hedonist. There are actual more plausible reasons why Walder has had so many wives and children He's ancient, no other Lord in the series is his age. His age and health is astounding, there are many cases of much younger Lords taking wives, maybe had some lived to Walder's age the likes of Hightower would have as many children as Walder does He was born in the era of the Great Spring Sickness and the draughts in the South, events that saw large amounts of the population dead. He lived in an era where Aegon the unlikely became King despite being 17th in line at one point. Beron Stark was the Lord of Winterfell while Walder was a child, he died young but still had 8 kids, many of whom also died young. Had Beron and his children were as healthy and long lived as Walder and his offspring were House Stark would be similarly as large. I'm sorry, I just don't see how Walder's a hedonist. Come on, that is wrong. Merret, who has been useless since a teenager since his injury, directly contradicts this. Merret worries about himself because Walder's heirs, Stevron's branch, do not share Walder and Stevron's ideals about family. Of the captured nobles from the battle of Green Fork only Walder pays ransoms to release his family, both legitimate and bastard sons. His anger at the Twins about Robb offering an apology for a dead grandson also show how he's pissed at his family losses. Yes he's old and blunt, but he clearly does care about his family. It seems an all too lazy stereotype that antagonists don't have any feelings for their family and only seen them as pawns, Merret's POV (himself one of the most useless Freys) contradicts this about Walder.
  25. Bernie Mac

    Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

    But half the kingdom of the North has not revolted. Stannis has a couple of thousand Northmen in his army, less than the Northern army Roose took home with him. We are talking a very, very small part of the population of the North revolting, to call it en masse is just wrong. I get that its a bitch to be arguing semantics but the North is not rebelling en masse. Well I'm only commenting on what we've actually seen in the books as of the sample chapters of TWOW. You are speculating on something that may or may not happen, but I can only go on what has actually happened. You are arguing your headcannon of what will happen, I'm arguing the text.
×