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Bernie Mac

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  1. Bernie Mac

    Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

    Exactly, they are split. They can't be revolting en masse when the North is hugely fractured. Many are, many are not. The Boltons have a fair amount of support, there is also a small part of the North who have done nothing during all this. To characterize the North as revolting en masse against the Iron Throne is disingenuous. First of all its not half the kingdom, there is around 5-6k on each side at Winterfell. You'll find most peasants in the North, like any other region, could not give two shits to who they pay their taxes to, they just want an end to the war.
  2. Bernie Mac

    Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

    Hardly. He did not inherit his crown, his army crowned him (making him more of a Warlord) He did not pass on his crown, Robb's been dead for a year in the books, the vast majority of his vassals have moved on and sworn oaths to new kings. He was not recognized as a King by any foreign power He did not set foot in the North while he was King of it, another King controlled 'his' capital for much of Robb's short reign He had no currency or government. During his 'reign' he was one of four kings claiming to be King of the North By most terminology Robb would be seen as a pretender rather than an actual King. He fails most Kingly criteria. His own brother even refers to him as such. "They north rode with Robb, bled with him, died for him. They have supped on grief and death, and now you come to offer them another serving. Do you blame them if they hang back? Forgive me, Your Grace, but some will look at you and see only another doomed pretender." He was no successful in his bid to win his throne, he could not get the Iron Throne to recognize his legitimacy, nor any other sovereign nation nor even any other pretender or warlord. By his army, not his Vassals. The majority of his lords did not get a say in it, his army crowned him and most went along with the army. That is not a King, that is a Warlord calling himself a King. Many warlords do actually become legitimate Kings who pass on their crowns to their heirs, Robb was not one of them, Robb was a pretender fighting, along with four others, for the North. Yes it is true. Do you not understand they 'mostly did not attend'. Most of Riverland nobles did not attend, Cat points this out. You seem to be confused or just looking for an argument (quelle surprise) but at no point did I say no Riverand nobles attended, I said few did. Well actually I quoted Cat on this Aside from her brother Edmure's modest retinue of friends, the lords of the Trident had remained to hold the riverlands while the king retook the north Is Cat lying? Are you better informed that one of the actual characters in the book? By all means quote it. Don't rely on your own headcannon to win a discussion. Use actual evidence from the books to back up your claim. First of all how many do you think is large as lets not waste time on semantics. State how many Riverland soldiers died at the Red Wedding and then try to back it up and prove Cat to be lying. Hardly. This is a hugely hyperbolic statement. The North is clearly split, characterizing them as revolting en masse is either you being deliberately disingenuous or not understanding the words you are using.
  3. I think you are clearly mistaking the fandom's view of Robb Stark to how he is viewed in the North in AFFC and ADWD. He is not some myth, he is a pretender who gambled to heavily and lost. "They north rode with Robb, bled with him, died for him. They have supped on grief and death, and now you come to offer them another serving. Do you blame them if they hang back? Forgive me, Your Grace, but some will look at you and see only another doomed pretender." - Jon Snow Apart from one young girl bringing up Robb we don't hear much in the way of mythologizing Robb in AFFC and ADWD, especially as he died as a result of the 3,500 Northmen with Roose. Half his own army was against him at the Red Wedding. GRRM has set up the Bolton's demise, Ramsay is a psychopath and the longer he lives the more likely the Dustin/Ryswell faction will switch as they will never allow him to rule them. Quite a few of those battles were won due to the larger army.
  4. How would he? Renly is playing the role of cupid, that is it. If Robert decides to set aside his wife and marry another that is on Robert. Why would the North and Stormlands be against Renly for the King doing as a King pleases? And how would the Stormlands be against Renly? Most of the Lords supported him usurping the throne.
  5. Sounds like he (and Stannis) considered it his plan "We both know your wedding was a mummer's farce. A year ago you were scheming to make the girl one of Robert's whores." "A year ago I was scheming to make the girl Robert's queen," Renly said, "but what does it matter? And Varys spy network backs this plan up The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. Yeah, not according to the books we have. If anything she seems to have been one of the perpetrators behind murdering Joffrey, which delays a Tyrell sitting on the Iron Throne. You are. Or are you satisfied with the quotes from Renly about his plan and Olenna about not wanting to support Renly? Why would Olenna need to lie to Sansa when in the same conversation Sansa is being told how much Renly was liked by Mace, Margaery and Loras. What exactly does Olenna have to gain from that? What does GRRM? It seems an entirely meaningless lie to make with no payoff. She influences his decision, she does not order him around. Lady Olenna had no plan, she did not want the Tyrells mixed up in it. We know that past experience has not exactly made her enamoured with royalty given her failed betrothal to Daeron. He's not in charge in name only, he's in charge. That is just a fact. But that is false. We know for a fact that is false as we know that she did not want her House to rebel and support a Usurper. That is canon. What does she have to gain from bringing that up in the first place to Sansa. Not sure how this applies here. Does Tarly think Lady Olenna is in charge of House Tyrell? Rowan? Redwyne? Any of his vassals? Does Tywin, Tyrion or Varys come to this conclusion? Why does Tywin not deal directly with Olenna like he does in the show, where she actually is in command. Why does she not stick around after the Wedding? The Olenna and Mace from the show are not the same as their counterparts in the book. Not that we know of. It could well be that she gave him a different viewpoint, one he found to make more sense, pointing out how unsuitable Cersei was as a bride considering her age. That is not backed up by the books. It contradicts what we learn in the books. Again, this is not a conversation about his intelligence, its about him being in command. Plenty of idiots are in charge, plenty of idiots are competent leaders due to listening to their more intelligent councillors. Mace is a competent leader. Certainly in comparison to many of his peers. Exactly, so why are you so concerned with it? Yes. They can only have Willas marry who they want if they convince Mace it is the right thing to do. Sansa is not a hard sell. Nor is convincing him that the 30something Cersei might not be the best match for his heir.
  6. Bernie Mac

    Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

    They pretty much did. Are the Charlton's and Vypren's their closest neighbours? Both of those Houses were on Walders' side. He was more pretender than King. Yup, that was the custom they broke. The people inside the Twins were promised safety and never received it. Some will be desperate for it, most notably Blackwood and Piper. Some would not care. The Riverlords mostly did not attend, it was primarily Nothern nobles. Thirty-five hundred they were, thirty-five hundred who had been blooded in the Whispering Wood, who had reddened their swords at the Battle of the Camps, at Oxcross, Ashemark, and the Crag, and all through the gold-rich hills of the Lannister west. Aside from her brother Edmure's modest retinue of friends, the lords of the Trident had remained to hold the riverlands while the king retook the north. I think many things, such as them not being in a positon to get revenge. The Blackwoods were down to 500 men most of the Houses are currently spent, they simply don't have the numbers or the unity to take on the Freys. Their larger army, their well protected castles. Again, some despise, some dislike, some will be indifferent and some will be allies.
  7. Come on. Renly's lying and now Olenna's lying. You are jumping through a lot of hoops to make your theory make sense. You can't simply reject evidence because you don't like it. It hardly went bust, Margaery is Queen, Mace sits on the Small Council and Garlan the new Lord of Brightwater Keep. This has hardly been a bust for Mace nor does he or anyone else view it as such. The Crown even went back on declaring Renly a traitor. It would be nice to not put words in my mouth. I claimed he was in charge, 'iron fisted' is your emphasis, not mine. Someone does not need to be ironfisted to be in charge, I imagine Mace is quite laissez faire in his style. Welcome to others opinons She's his elderly mother, she knows she can say what she wants, she is not going to be punished for it. For all you know Mace may even find it amusing. It means she is sometimes able to manipulate her son. I expect that may be true of many leaders. Robert was the same, he was still the one command. I'm getting that you have a very specific style of command here, you may be arguing semantics here as its possible we have both different understandings of command. To put it clearly, Mace is in charge, he has the final say. That is not to say that others, like his mother or daughter, can not influence him or even sometimes have him change his mind, but ultimately he is in command of House Tyrell. He is not going to his mother to ask permission to act, his mother is not giving him orders, when she wants him to do something she has to manipulate him into doing and as we see with the Renly scenario, she is not always successful. I genuinely thinking you are misreading the matter. She is talking of manipulating him into thinking it was his choice, this is not an uncommon tact in some relationships. But Mace, not his mother, has the final say. Sure there is. By the end of ADWD he is the Regent, his daughter the Queen and he the most powerful Lord in the realm. That is not the sign of incompetency. No. Where do you think I claimed that? Being in charge does not mean every single act is made by the Lord. It is clearly the women of House Tyrell's plot. They were trying to be subtle, lay the groundwork. Mace would have the final say on who his son married, not his mother. His mother can suggest who and make a compelling case, but it is Mace's call to make. eh? Why would he? Tywin is in charge of the Lannisters but there are going to be times his subordinates are acting on their own. Mace is no different. Sansa was not the prize for Mace, his daughter being Queen was. Sansa, like Brightwater Keep or the Handship, were just bonuses. It is not the end of the world if they fall through. How is that buffoonery? You are stretching the meaning of the word here. Clearly not always, crowning Renly is evidence of this. But of course he caved. He's outranked by Tywin on this matter and its not a huge issue. Notice who does not get a say in the Martells crossing the Reach, Lady Olenna. Notice who is not on the Small Council, Lady Olenna.
  8. Bernie Mac

    Fair Compensation for House Frey

    How? Why should the wife of the Hand and the daughter of the Lord of the Riverlands be worried about being recognized in the Riverlands. How is that Tyrion's fault? How is he supposed to know this? Tyrion was also lightly protected When does Cat complain about this? You do realize you are inventing reasons Cat never gives. We know precisely why Cat takes Tyrion hostage and it is not because she was fearful of being took hostage herself. No one is denying that. There was multiple causes for the war. And the Starks also contributed. Many people contributed to the war. Yup. No one has ever denied this. I'd imagine many Lords were the same, they certainly were in our own history. Mostly by the Tullys. Hoster did not like the fact that Walder Frey has close relations to the Lords of the West. They were also looked down on because of their status as a fairly new House and due to them operating a successful business. The Freys are basically the middle ages Jews of Westeros. Other Lords resent them for their success. Not that we know. Robb's agreement was to marry a Frey, he did not fulfil that agreement. The Frey's fulfilled their part of the agreement, they allowed him access to their bridge and supported him at Riverrun. Again, hearsay. Robb never says he married Jeyne for that reason. And surely you are contradicting yourself, either he married due to the love potion or due to guilt. In one of your theories he has no say, in the other he does. Not only is there zero evidence for either but they actually contradict each other. Robb is responsible for his actions.
  9. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    So not common knowledge. Glad we have established that. He did just that, but Ned's predicament is that many of the men loyal to the Crown are also loyal to the Queen. The majority of the court don't distinguish between the two. Ned did not have an excess amount of people he trusted and could use. Yes. Ned was trying to be subtle. How does his daughter blabbing disprove that? Is there any need for the 'gotcha'? You are coming across as a little sensitive in this topic. Ned has not got the finances to make such a deal and barely knows Slynt, plus his honour won't let him debase himself that much. Littlefinger has the finances, a better relationship with Slynt; he's Ned's only real choice. But he wouldn't. Ned's plan is to crown Stannis. Ned is only regent if the king is underage, if Joffrey is not the king then Ned is not regent. It's a catch 22 situation, but Ned only has authority if Joffrey is King. No, not that we know of. For one a Regent, as confirmed by both Ned and Renly, needs to be confirmed by the Small Council to become Regent. He's not in a positon to promise anything. But again, he's only Regent if Joffrey is King. From who? When does he time to do all this? He barely knows Slynt, has his own affairs to organize and has barely enough men to guard himself and his daughters. Ned does not have the manpower to seize the treasury and even if he did such an action would immediately tip off the Queen to his actions. He's not. So? Regents are only for underage or incapacitated monarchs, Stannis is neither. Ned is only regent if the King is underage, per the will of Robert Baratheon. If the King is not underage then Ned is nothing. The whole reason why Ned tries to quickly have the Small Council confirm his Regency is because without it he has no real power to act. Let me rephrase that, he does not have enough loyal men in Kings Landing. Are you really disputing this? No one ever claimed that. Can you stop with the straw man bullshit. Ned brings 50 soldiers to court, he did not feel he needed to bring any more from Winterfell due to not suspecting that he'd need his own personal army to stage a coup. Ned only realizes that he needs his own men when its too late, the Gold Cloaks are his best option. What part of this is confusing you? He could have done, he never considers that an option. Tyrion hires sellswords because of the lesson he learnt from Ned. Cause and Effect. The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing, but Ned for most of his term as Hand was unaware of just how much danger he was in or that he'd need to stay and stage a coup. Ned did not realize that Robert would be on his death bed and he'd not have the full backing of the Crown. You can criticize Ned for his naivety here, but that was the position he was in. He was not insulting him all the time. He initially took Littlefinger's talk of his wife as an insult and acted rashly, but he's hardly constantly insulting him. When was he meant to do it? The King has to be dead and the Small Council present to do so. They call him a traitor because he tried to arrest the Royal Family in the throne room. Cersei, before that, tells Ned to go home, he refuses thinking he had the upper hand. He has zero reason to suspect that he does not have the upper hand in that situation so you suggesting alternatives does not make a lick of sense. You are rewriting too much of the actual book to make a pretty poor point. When? Robert had died hours ago, not weeks. When does Ned have all the time to do this? He's only Hand while Robert lives, but you are incorrect. The Hand needs the support of the King to rule in his stead. Jon Arryn wanted to remove Janos Slynt, he was not allowed. The powers of a Hand depend entirely on the Hand and the King. There is zero indication in the books that the Hands under Robert had unlimited power to act without Robert's permission. Yes. Tyrion, as he points out in his own chapters, has learnt from Ned's lesson. Tyrion has been given a small army, Ned was down to 20 men in the short period between him finding out about the incest and Robert's death. Tyrion, like Cregan Stark almost two centuries earlier, has the power to do what he pleases because he has both the military backing and the support of the Crown due to Cersei not wanting to displease her father. Tyrion and Ned's positons are not the same. Tyrion expected to need an army, Ned did not. Do you really not understand this? You are judging Ned on hindsight. And Tyrion learnt from Ned's mistakes, he acted too quickly with Slynt that Cersei could not reverse the decision. He also has his father's permission to do so. The major difference between Ned and Tyrion is that Tyrion and Cersei, despite their differences, are working on the same side in ACOK. Has anyone argued that about in regards to Tyrion and Slynt? Well no, he could not have, not without Robert's permission. That is an established fact, the previous Hand wanted rid of Slynt, he did not get his wish. Ned, at that point, did not know he would be staging a coup. He has no reason to think he needs to bring his own personal army to the capital. He can't remove the Queens' family. Of course he did not do anything about it. He could not get Robert to change his mind on Jaime being Warden of the East, he's hardly going to try and have Tywin's nephews removed as Robert's squires. Which Lannister positons should he have replaced? Yeah, it is. You have all these answers for questions that Ned never knew he'd be facing. He was a little out of his depth, but he had zero reason to suspect that Robert would die, Joffrey was a bastard and that he'd need to stage a coup to wrestle control of the realm. Ned is only in a positon to need his own private army for a few days. He simply did not have enough time to raise them. He also trusts Jon Arryn, so he is not going to go out of his way to make too many changes right away. Ned was not to know that he'd only be Hand for a matter of months. Once again, you are basing this on hindsight, Ned may have eventually made the changes to right the court, he did not know there was such a time limit on it. He didn't really have much choice regarding Sansa as she was betrothed to the Prince. No Hand in the history of Westeros has just started and then created new positons on the spot. Again, you are pulling an answer out of thin air. Exactly, his job. Glad we are agreed on that. He could, but, once again, you are criticizing him for not having the gift of hindsight. He's a stranger to Kings Landing, does know the government officials to be able to judge their suitability for the positon. The changes he can make are likely to the positons Jon Arryn granted and he has no reason to suspect that Jon Arryn did not appoint decent, capable men in those positons. In time he could have learnt all that, sadly for Ned he did not have time. He could not have known that. No, it does not. We don't need to interpret it any other way than the text has it, that Littlefiner's shadiness was done with the support of Robert. Of course. Are you under the impression that I or any one else in this thread has claimed that Littlefinger wanted him as King? They don't. But Littlefinger not wanting Stannis to be King does not mean he told Renly about the incest like someone (perhaps you) originally claimed in this thread. Littlefinger not wanting Stannis as King does not mean he is particularly fond of Renly. Most of the realm don't want Stannis as King, Littlefinger has not told them about the incest either. What the fuck dude? Who claimed they would have a very happy and loving relationship? Stannis does not have a very happy and loving relationship with his wife, his brothers and his own councillors on Dragonstone and at the Wall. Stannis is more than capable of working with people he is not in a very happy and loving relationship. Surely you acknowledge that?
  10. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    Excellent, we are on the same page. It was not obvious. So Renly now knowing is perfectly acceptable conclusion in the books. That is the inference from your comments. If that is not what you meant then I apologize. Can you expand what you mean in your last few posts talking about siblings being close. What is your point to such observations? Come on, I'm only quoting what you've said. It sounded that the twins being close should have made people suspicious. Is that not what you meant? Please clarify as your posts are not doing that. Surely you must be aware that this contradicts your other point. If the Baratheon gene is that dominant it could be any Baratheon descendent going back 300 years. But no, we have no idea if Renly took any notice of the Blacksmith's apprentice. Stannis did, Stannis was told who he was before hand and stared intensely at Gendry. Gendry makes no comment on Renly ever doing the same. And regardless if Gendry did ever think he was a bastard of Robert's why would he care? He does not know who Gendry's mother was or what she looked like, we do as Ned knows to ask. Ned, Jon and Stannis meet Gendry looking for an answer to Joffrey and his siblings parentage. If Renly is in the dark there is no reason for him to think too much about this. Robert having bastards is not a big deal. Stannis is prematurely bald, his daughter has the Florent ears. And once again, this is only noticeable if you already know what you are looking for. 99.9999% of the people who know what both Robert and his 'legitimate' children look like are not looking for reasons why they are bastards. Did they? Can you refresh my memory of these times? The argument infront of Ned is not public, it is a private argument with one witness. I think it is. Just because a couple are in love does not mean people presume they hate each other. We know they hate each other due to Ned being Robert's best friend and Cersei being a POV character and admitting to murdering her husband. Most people at court are not aware of this. "No. I am what I am. The king makes use of me, but it shames him. A most puissant warrior is our Robert, and such a manly man has little love for sneaks and spies and eunuchs. If a day should come when Cersei whispers, 'Kill that man,' Ilyn Payne will snick my head off in a twinkling, and who will mourn poor Varys then? North or south, they sing no songs for spiders." He reached out and touched Ned with a soft hand. "But you, Lord Stark … I think … no, I know … he would not kill you, not even for his queen, and there may lie our salvation." Robert brings his wife to him to Winterfell, he gives in to his wife when she wants a Direwolf killed, he gives into his wife when she suggests Jaime be made Warden. Them hating each other is a well kept secret, them not being in love is not. Not rumours, Varys tells Ned that, no one else does so it is not like this was common gossip. Compared to something that literally everyone is unaware of? What factors? Robert having bastards is not a factor and due to all but one of them being unacknowledged the appearance of them is not going to be a big deal. And it is not just that the bastards take after Robert in looks but that their mothers were blonde, which adds into the evidence from the books on previous offspring of Baratheon-Lannister unions (a book that does not seem to have been borrowed to Renly or Stannis, but to Ned and Jon). An arranged marriage being just that is also not going to be suspicious. Them not being happy is not unique to them in their world. For every Ned and Tywin there is Lord and Lady Martell, Arryn and Greyjoy
  11. No, there is not. "She might think we have some wits about us. One of us, at any rate." The old woman turned back to Sansa. "It's treason, I warned them, Robert has two sons, and Renly has an older brother" Olenna was against the rebellion, her son overruled her. Clearly Olenna was not enamoured with the Joffrey-Margaery wedding and it seems Mace ignored her on that one as well. You are mistaking talking down about her son with her being in charge of him, she is not. Obedient sons are less likely to be called 'oafs'. I think you are confusing the books with the show on this one. I liked the shows interpretation, Rigg was an excellent actress and a great foil to Tywin, Tyrion and Cersei in her scenes but the Olenna in the books is not that character, nor is she a Genna Lannister who sits in on war councils despite her gender and orders her husband about. Olenna is the matriarch of the House and the women of House Tyrell are seen as accomplished and able, but their roles are to influence the males in their House rather than to command. Why would Mace need to be there? The whole point of that meeting was to make Sansa feel comfortable, relaxed and to show them to be different to the scheming Lannisters. It was a meeting of sisterhood and it was a meeting to try and keep the Lannisters out of the loop. "Lord Tyrell will not broach the matter of the Stark girl until after Joffrey's wedding. If Sansa is wed before that, how can he take offense, when he gave us no hint of his intentions?" Tywin does not think he is dealing with Olenna. Olenna is in the capital to arrange the wedding, such matters are not likely to be handled by the likes of Tywin and Mace, the two most powerful Lords in the realm. And it should be noted that Olenna leaves the capital after the wedding. If she was in charge of the Tyrells she'd remain, like she does in the show, in the books. Influenced, not necessarily overruled. It was still Mace's call to make. But him being influenced by his advisor's is normal. Jon Snow does not command Stannis yet he was still able to change Stannis' mind about attacking the Dreadfort. Again, that is influence, rather than command. She's not made the decision, she has convinced Mace it was the right decision and his decision all along. Olenna is smarter than her son, no one is denying this, but Mace is in charge and has the final say. That does not mean others, including his mother, can convince him to change his mind, but ultimately it is his mind to change. Had Olenna been in charge she's not need to influence, she'd command. Certainly. How does contradict my point? We don't know how easy it was to manipulate Mace as we have no idea how attached he was to his original opinion. On some matters she may be able to change his mind and others, such as crowning Renly, she clearly is not. Being able to influence some decisions does not mean you are in charge. Well yeah, Doran for a start. She was the ruler of Dorne until she died. We have zero knowledge on the relationship Ned or Tywin had with their mother. How exactly do you think he is being treated in that paragraph? She stepped into stop him from making a scene. But once again you are mistaking Olenna being smarter than her son and recognizing that he had been politically out manoeuvred to her being in control of him. Of course he took the credit, it was his army, his Van that beat Robert. This is no different to all commanders in the series. Twyin's being congratulated for the Mountain's victory at Duskendale. When Mace's army gets a victory he is going to be acknowledged for it. Tyrion's actually quite the hypocrite in this situation, he's not telling others of the contributions of his subordinates at the Battle of Backwater, in his mind he saved the city. Not at all. The quotes you have used in this reply contradict that. It is not for appearance sakes, it is how it is. Evidence from the books that suggests that she was in favour of that marriage? Otherwise this is just one baseless claim used as 'evidence' to support another baseless claim. That is not the reality, the reality is that she is able to influence some decisions and not others. Is it not? Come on, not to be rude but you've pulled that out of your ass. There is zero evidence for this. Which being Queen does, even being a long term paramour to the King does. This is ridiculous. There is not just one prize.
  12. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    Who knows how many times he visited his love in the North. They were clearly just more devious than the Lannisters and kept their affair hidden from Ned. Robert never saw the twins bang, no one did yet you are acting like the children looking like their mother should be obvious to anyone that they are not Robert's children. The same should be true of Ned and his own offspring right? The trouble with your comment is that you have been given the answer and are now puzzled why the characters in the books have not came to the same conclusion you were given by Cersei herself. It seems obvious to the reader because the reader has been given the admission of guilt and all the evidence. The people in the books have not, Joffrey looking like his mother is not a sign that he is a bastard, Robert's bastards looking like him is not a sign either. Most characters are not making that connection just like Ned is not making that connection between Robb and Jon. Bastard. Robert had only ever acknowledged one of his bastards. So to pretty much everyone in the realm Edric is the only known bastard of Robert. Obviously there are pockets of people connected with each unacknowledged bastard who would know or suspect who their father was, but that's it. This is evidence when Robert was alive, he could confirm that those were his children or that he at least slept with the women the appropriate number of years ago. After Robert's death it is far less convincing. That is never claimed. What the research did show was that of the three previous marriages between Lannister and Baratheon the children inherited the looks of their Baratheon parent. But Baratheon's don't have some magical gene that makes them dominant and that is not the belief in Westeros. We know that Brienne has Baratheon ancestry, she does not have the famous Baratheon black hair nor do I imagine many Baratheon women had her build or facial features. The Baratheons have ruled the Stormlands for 300 years, if their genes were so dominant the majority of the Stormland nobility would be Baratheon in appearance. They are not. Even Jon Arryn, who uncovered this, did not think this was conclusive. He does not blurt out the truth on his deathbed but leaves hints so others can pick up his investigation. Can't imagine that such marriages were that uncommon. Doran and his wife were not happy and they actually married for love. Jon Arryn and Lysa were hardly happy. Balon's wife lives apart from him. Stannis and Selyse are hardly the picture of a decent marriage. I'd also point out that Cersei kept her bruises and the attempted rape to herself, she hid those from everyone including Jaime. Robert's complaints to Ned are not likely to be told to most people but the people he is closest to. Right, but you are working backwards here. If you tell someone that Cersei's children were bastards then you'd have to figure out who the possible fathers are but people are not under the impression that the Queen would be stupid enough to cuckold the king, to do so three times. Again, you are working with the benefit of hindsight. You know the answer so are looking for clues on who it could be. The realm of Westeros does not have the answer so they are not looking for clues on who the father of 'Robert's' children are. We don't know that. We have no idea how Stannis found out, or when he found out. We don't know if someone made an innocent remark to him (like Sansa to Ned) and it clicked, we don't know if someone who knew (Varys- Littlefinger) planted the seed in his thoughts, we don't know if he saw Cersei and Jaime act suspiciously towards each other.
  13. Bernie Mac

    An entire royal line wiped out in one battle?

    ? How was Stannis' role downplayed and how did this placate the Lannisters?
  14. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    With what men? He has sent half his men to the Riverlands, lost another two men to the fight with Jaime and has his daughters to worry about. He's not got the manpower to seize the treasury and you are missing the point, Ned was trying to be subtle, to not alert Cersei to his actions. How can Ned offer Lordships? He's not going to be Regent as his plan is to make Stannis King. What Lordships has he the power to give away? That is the point, Ned did not have any loyal men. Tyrion, who unlike Ned was no stranger to Kings Landing, comes to Kings Landing with an army. A column of riders emerged from beneath the portcullis with a clink of steel and a clatter of hooves. Clegane stepped close to the king, one hand on the hilt of his longsword. The visitors were dinted and haggard and dusty, yet the standard they carried was the lion of Lannister, golden on its crimson field. A few wore the red cloaks and mail of Lannister men-at-arms, but more were freeriders and sellswords, armored in oddments and bristling with sharp steel . . . and there were others, monstrous savages out of one of Old Nan's tales, the scary ones Bran used to love. Not only does Tyrion have his own army but he has Tywin's seal meaning the Lannister men in the city are also his to command and Tyrion, unlike Ned, had Bronn immediately hire sellswords within Kings Landing. No one told Ned to ask Littlefinger to bribe the Gold Cloaks, you can't blame Cat for Ned trying a royal coup. That is on Ned and Ned alone. Again, that is on Ned and Ned alone. How could he Robert was still alive? They can't acknowledge the King's will while the King is still alive. And the Will, even with Ned's change, still makes it clear that Joffrey is the heir. He was trying to get them to acknowledge it ASAP. "...the old knight would not abandon Joffrey easily. The need for deceit was a bitter taste in his mouth, but Ned knew he must tread softly here, must keep his counsel and play the game until he was firmly established as regent. There would be time enough to deal with the succession when Arya and Sansa were safely back in Winterfell, and Lord Stannis had returned to King's Landing with all his power. "I would ask this council to confirm me as Lord Protector, as Robert wished," You are not offering any advice that Ned was not already trying to do. No, they answer to the King. Ned points out that he needs the Council to confirm his as Regent, he can't just order them to do so and even before that Renly points out that Ned needs the Council's to confirm him as Regent. Joffrey outranks the Hand. When? And we are talking about what actually happened, lets not go down to many rabbit holes with endless what if's. Ned did not know he'd need his own personal army in the Capital till it was too late. In only a number of days Ned finds out about Joffrey and his siblings and Robert is on his deathbed. He's not time to raise his own personal army. He was reliant on Littlefinger. Littlefinger was his only option in the time he had. I'm not sure how this is not obvious? Ned is disgusted with the duplicity and the bribery but he has no other choice. If it was as simple as raising his own army in time he'd do just that. Time and distance prevents him from doing so. When? Jon Arryn was not able to get Robert to replace Janos Slynt, what makes you think Ned could get him to replace the Small Council? You are speaking with the benefit of hindsight. It's really easy to point out what Ned should have done after reading how he failed. No Hand in the history of Westeros has became Hand and then just created new positons on the Small Council without the King's permission. That is not true. He was pissed with the economics of the Hand's Tourney and tried to curb that, he tried to stop the assassination of Dany and was ignored, he counselled against the appointment of Jaime as Warden of the East and was overruled. Ned knew what his responsibilities were, his King simply did not allow him to do so. It should also be noted that Ned is not familiar with running the realm. In time he may have replaced the Master of Coin, Master of Whispers and other lesser positons in the capital (he's stuck with the Master of Ships and Laws and it is the Citadel who appoint a Grand Maester) but he's inexperienced and needs those men in place while he's still learning the ropes. It would be idiotic for an inexperienced Hand to appoint an inexperienced Master of Coin, Master of Whispers etc. and hope everyone to be up to speed straight away. That quote is saying he is corrupt on the Crown's behalf, not on his own. Big difference. It is Stannis laying the blame with Robert more so than anyone else. How so? Littlefinger's dealings are not thought to be worse than smuggling. There is not a single quote in the book series that indicates that Stannis is going to punish Littlefinger. Not one
  15. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    I'm sorry but the automatic assumption of an unhappy (arranged) marriage is not that the wife has cuckolded her husband three times and is sleeping with her brother.
  16. What? This is the book forum, there is zero indication that Mace does not have the final say in who his daughter marries. Olenna, to our knowledge, was against the Tyrell support of Renly. Of course they will. Why would they not want their daughter as the Queen and Royal Grandchildren? This is getting a little ridiculous, being the second wife of the King, a fairly young King, is still one of the best marriages in the Kingdom, especially with Joffrey already betrothed.
  17. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    Depends what qualifies as a good reason to you, if the King would need the High Septon's permission or simply can do it by himself. We really don't know enough about the laws of the realm. Daemon Targaryen asked his brother to allow him to set aside his wife, Rhea Royce, and this was not done due to her being barren but due to the two of them not loving each other. Viserys I said no, but it seems it was the King's call to make, not the Faiths. All Robert has to do is convince himself he is allowed to set aside his wife. Personally I don't think it was ever going to happen, but that was never really the crux of the argument but both Cersei and Renly believing it is a possibility, which they both clearly did. lol no, I was very clear in multiple posts in this thread. As soon as there is a claim from an actual character in the series suggesting that Renly did in fact know about the incest then it becomes an issue but so far we've got Renly denying he knew about it. Yes. And we know from his own thoughts that he did not do it. With this case we have a definitive answer. We also know from Littlfinger's claims that Tyrion was innocent. With Renly knowing about the incest not one character in the series claims or suggests he knows. Stannis and Cat both take his claim as sincere, they don't challenge him on this. It is canon that Gendry's mother had blonde hair, we only have Gendry's claim about this but until another source in the book actually challenges that then his mother having blonde hair is the canon answer. That is not the same as Cersei is more than clear why she thinks he will set her aside. "My husband grows more restless every day. Having Stark beside him will only make him worse. He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?" Your argument is on thin ice when you start ignoring what was actually said. Being restless is why she fears Robert will set her aside. I'm not sure how that is not clear from the words printed in the book.
  18. It is a lot harder getting Lords to support a rebellion with no payoff for them, no incentive for their war. Wars are expensive, the Reach Lords may not have been willing to fund such an endeavour, making enemies of the Lannisters and the young King, in the process without some kind of reward or influence at the end.
  19. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    I don't think anyone is trying to gang up on you. This topic is on its 8th page, people are interested in it, you are going to get replies. It's genuinely not done to make you feel bad about your opinion. GRRM is pretty clear, Littlefinger is trusted by everyone. He's being figurative, rather than literal. but his point still stands. It is how Littlefinger got his positon and maintains his influence and power. Littlefinger is the Master of Coin, Ned does not have the money to bribe Janos nor does he likely know if he can trust him. He is trusting Baelish to do it for him. In the end Littlefinger is the only man Ned trusts on the Small Council He trusted neither Pycelle nor Varys, and Ser Barristan was honor-bound to protect and defend the boy he thought his new king. The old knight would not abandon Joffrey easily. The need for deceit was a bitter taste in his mouth, but Ned knew he must tread softly here, must keep his counsel and play the game until he was firmly established as regent It was the mistake that led him to his downfall. His smile was apologetic. "I did warn you not to trust me, you know." Robert's will still names Joffrey was his heir. Robert's still talks about his underage heir, that will is clearly not talking about Stannis. And he was trying to do just that, publicize Robert's will but he needed the Small Council to confirm him as Regent. What powers? The Hand is not an independent power, the Hand, unless he has his own private military, still needs the backing of the King and/or Small Council. Ned did not have that being a fairly recent appointee and him taking on the Queen, the heir and some of her loyalists. His idiocy was in trusting Littlefinger and not getting out of dodge ASAP, but this talk of powers is ignoring the actual positon Ned was in. I agree he might not like him. Stannis could count the amount of people he actually does like on the fingers of Davos Seaborn. He certainly was not fond of his first Hand, his Castellan or his Admiral. As for keeping him at court, that is unclear. Davos was a smuggler, Stannis has no problem with using people with far more questionable pasts than Littlefinger. In terms of respectability there is a pretty big gulf between Baelish and Davos. But still trusted him. But still trusted him/ This is not about like it is about trust and those Lords are trusting him to keep his word. Though I'd actually argue that its not clear that the 6 Lords don't like him, more that he is of much lower birth than they are and they don't like the idea of him governing them. It's elitism, it is not about like and it certainly is not about trust.
  20. Bernie Mac

    Would Tywin agree Son of Ice and Fire to take Casterly Rock?

    That is not really true. Tyrion had zero experience being in charge of the realm or a cities defences. He's been a playboy for much of his adult life. Tyrion, when appointed Hand, is puzzled why he and not other more qualified men such as his uncle or his cousin Addam Marbrand, amongst others, is not appointed Hand and Tywin spells it out, its due to him being his son and likely heir now that Jaime's fate is pretty much uncertain. Not really. Tyrion was the principle suspect in the murder of a King, Tywin's own grandson. He can't sweep that up, not with Cersei being ballistic and the Tyrells pissed (however theatrically that was). Tyrion had more motive than anyone else, had the means to poison him (Pycelle's confiscated poisons), had made multiple public threats to hurt the King and was one of the last people to interact with the poisoned King. All the evidence points to him The fact that Tyrion is getting a trial is pretty impressive in itself. Kevan himself is convinced of Tyrion's guilt Lovely. "I see." He shifted in his seat. "I am curious. You were always a fair man, Uncle. What convinced you?" "Why steal Pycelle's poisons, if not to use them?" Ser Kevan said bluntly. "And Lady Merryweather saw—" Tyrion was only going to escape execution due to who his father was The mob is convinced of your guilt. Were you so foolish as to venture out into the streets, they would tear you limb from limb." "I can see how much that prospect upsets you." "You are my brother's son." "You might remind him of that." "Do you think he would allow you to take the black if you were not his own blood, and Joanna's? I get that we, the reader, know for a fact that Tyrion is innocent but the people of Kings Landing do not. Tyrion looks incredibly guilty, Tyrion himself can't figure of an alternative to him or his wife as the killer. Cersei is not using this as an excuse to get rid of her brother, she genuinely believes he murdered her son. Tywin can't allow Tyrion to go unpunished for killing his grandson, the King, he also can't be seen to not be doing anything about it.
  21. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    When is it ever brought up? Quote three times were they are mentioned to be close? They are two fairly young individuals who both get along with pretty much everyone. There is nothing strange with two Council members talking and getting along. Nowhere, to my knowledge, in the books is Littlefinger said to be especially close to Renly or Renly especially close to Littlefinger. I may have missed it, if so correct me. They are at a Small Council meeting. Why would they not be talking with each other? But come on, think clearly. Is a room with Varys and Pycelle present the place Littlefinger and Renly are going to be plotting against the Lannisters? They both live in the city, they would have ample of opportunity for subterfuge without doing in the same room as the Master of Spies. Varys does not think Littlefinger is part of Renly and the Tyrells plot The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. Littlefinger … the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing. Yet Lord Stark's the one who troubles my sleep. He has the bastard, he has the book, and soon enough he'll have the truth. Well yes, we do see them joking around with each other. Littlefinger does that with everyone. GRRM: Book Littlefinger and television show Littlefinger are very different characters. They're probably the character that's most different from the book to the television show. There was a a line in a recent episode of the show where, he's not even present, but two people are talking about him and someone says 'Well, no one trusts Littlefinger' and 'Littlefinger has no friends.' And that's true of television show Littlefinger, but it's certainly not true of book Littlefinger. Book Littlefinger, in the book, everybody trusts him. Everybody trusts him because he seems powerless, and he's very friendly, and he's very helpful. He helps Ned Stark when he comes to town, he helps Tyrion, you know, he helps the Lannisters. He's always ready to help, to raise money. He helps Robert, Robert depends on him to finance all of his banquets and tournaments and his other follies, because Littelfinger can always raise money. So, he's everybody's friend. The betting was not for fun, it was for money. Renly wished Tyrion was there as well as he could have won twice as much Littlefinger overheard. "If you know who's going to win the second match, speak up now before Lord Renly plucks me clean," he called to her. Ned smiled. "A pity the Imp is not here with us," Lord Renly said. "I should have won twice as much." Which tells us that these three characters, amongst others, regularly bet. Tyrion is not particularly close to either Littlefinger or Renly yet had he been there he be betting with them as well. Them betting is not evidence of anything. Not exactly and not anytime soon. "By then he will look to you as a second father, and if not, well … four years is a good long while, my lord. Long enough to dispose of Lord Stannis. Then, should Joffrey prove troublesome, we can reveal his little secret and put Lord Renly on the throne." Littlefinge and Renly had not plotted to make Renly king king in four years. Littlefinger is obviously playing with Ned, trying to tempt him into corruption. He wants the honourable Ned to sink to his level. He was never going to back Ned in the Throne Room. Few people want Stannis on the throne. And it should be noted we really don't know Stannis' thoughts on Littleinger, he does not mention him once in the books. As GRRM points out Littlefinger in the books is not the low life he appears in the show. There is zero evidence that he hates him. So why is Renly trying to make Ned Regent to Joffrey? If Renly wanted power and Littlefinger supported it why would Renly flee the city and not strike there and then with Littleinger and the Gold Cloaks? Sorry but you are moving the goal posts, you claimed they barely knew each other before they plotted to kill Joffrey and that is simply not the case. I gave two instances when we the reader know they did work together, there may well be more than that. You made a baseless assumption as evidence for another baseless assumption. Lot of what if's there, not any actual evidence. Do you honestly think this is going to come up in the last two books? That is not true. It was Jon Arryn who wanted Slynt replaced and it was Robert, via Littlefinger, who kept him on. Renly may be able to convince his brother to replace Synt, though I doubt it. but he is not Slynts' master. He reports to the Small Council. What laws? That's clearly not true as he fled the city knowing that Ned was not going to win against Cersei. Ned imprisoned, tortured, with his daughters prisoner, might not have much choice. Everything the writer writes is canon. Theories and what not are not canon. Thus far Renly not knowing is canon given the character has said as much. That does not mean its 100% true but until such a time in the books that someone contradicts Renly's version of events the canon answer is that Renly did not know. Similarly in the books, this far, Jon is Ned's son. That is canon this far but we assume that in the next two books that one may well be disputed and proven to be wrong.
  22. After Robert's death he's not got much choice. He tells Ned that should Cersei get control they were in danger, he suggests arresting Cersei and Ned becoming Regent to Joffrey, Ned refuses Renly flees the city, Ned is arrested, Renly can only presume he is next Renly arrives at the Tyrells, Joffrey summons Renly, the Tyrells and a host of other possible dissidents to King Landing to swear fealty or be branded traitors. Renly has a small window of opportunity, go to Kings Landing and risk what happened to Ned, flee the realm, convince the Tarlys and other Lords to rebel with him, he picks the latter Renly's got little choice but to rebel. Obviously being King is not a negative, most Lords would love to become King, but its not just ambition on Renly's part but him being convinced that Cersei means him harm and given Ned had just been executed he'd feel his suspicions were right. Stannis is unpopular, Renly does not take him seriously as a threat and is convinced the offer of Storm's End is enough for him to side with him.
  23. It would be replacing Cersei, not taking down the Lannisters. And it would not be Renly doing it but the King. Renly can't make Robert do anything, if Robert decides to replace Cersei it is Robert who faces the consequences. Unless Robert kills his daughter or disinherits/kills his grandchildren I can't see Tywin rebelling over it. It's not a fight he's likely to win. He'd expect compensation, possibly in Jaime being released from his vows and Tommen as his ward, but I think he'd just have to agree to Robert's decision. There was no conflict between the Lannisters and Starks when he was sounding out his plan to Ned (via the appearance of Margaery) or the letters to Highgarden. Why would it be risky for Renly? He's playing royal pimp much like Francis Bryan did for Henry VIII when he got the king interested in Jane Seymour while Anne (his own cousin) was pregnant and then played a part in her downfall as all her enemies conspired to bring her down. Tywin did not go to war with Aerys, he's not going to do so with Robert, not when his own grandson is the heir of the Throne. He's not going to risk being grandson to a king. Again, I'm not sure your point. This is not a contest where Cersei and Margaery get in a ring with each other, it is the King's call and his subjects are likely to go along with it. Stannis is not likely to take Cersei's side over Roberts
  24. Bernie Mac

    Would Tywin agree Son of Ice and Fire to take Casterly Rock?

    The actual quote from Tywin "You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse." There is nothing in there about Tywin thinking his wife cheated on him, it is him pointing out that he is stuck with him, he has no choice but to accept that he was his son. This is not Tywin admitting to Tyrion that he thinks his mother was sleeping around. If it was do you not think Tyrion would have maybe gone over this in his inner thoughts? People are too quick to jump to conspiracy theories that they interpret things that are not there. If Tyrion did not get that meaning from Tywin's quote then its pretty clear that is not what GRRM/Tywin meant when it was wrote. Tyrion knows that he is Tywin's son "Why not my uncle? Why not Ser Addam or Ser Flement or Lord Serrett? Why not a … bigger man?" Lord Tywin rose abruptly. "You are my son." That was when he knew. You have given him up for lost, he thought. You bloody bastard, you think Jaime's good as dead, so I'm all you have left. In fits of anger Tywin tells both Tyrion and Jaime that they are not his sons. He was not being literal. It's kind of a common phrase from disappointed parents.
  25. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    We don't know that. His bride was 13, his sons not even born. Robert does not want Dany dead because he is thinking of an invasion in the near future but the fact with every heir she has it increases the chances of rebels. The Blackfyres were rebels until the last male of the line was killed. This is another Blackfyre situation, it was going to lead to war whether it be 1 year, 5 years or 15 years down the line. Sure, but without Dany or an heir he's not worried about the support from Westeros for that invasion. Though this argument does not seem right, he loves her that he is angry enough to invade if she was assassinated but not enough to ever listen to her desire to take back Westeros?
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