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Bernie Mac

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Everything posted by Bernie Mac

  1. it was around a year Ned found it hard to imagine what could frighten Stannis Baratheon, who had once held Storm's End through a year of siege, surviving on rats and boot leather while the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne sat outside with their hosts, banqueting in sight of his walls. until you can find exactly how long it was then I'm comfortable with calling it that. of course, that is standard practice under a siege, you get rid of all the people you don't need, the Blackfish does the same during the war of the five kings again, name a seige in the last 100 years of westeros history that lasted longer without defeat? come on, stop guessing at numbers you don't know. there is zero indication there was less than 50 people. what we do know is that it was never taken. and it has been taken, has it not? Obviously Robert was more successful. how is that obvious? we know that Renly, in his words, left a strong garrison, we have no idea if Stannis did. There is no evidence that he left more men than Robert quote evidence from the books to prove that it was significantly less, because this, like your original point about the food, sounds a lot like guesswork rather than actual facts where is that claimed. at no point does Stannis claim he left more people or even that he left a large garrison. you mean the iron bank that came to him? Jon had no contact with the bank before that, had no idea were he was going to get money to pay for food and then out of nowhere a banker turns up and gives him money. it is hardly a great example certainly. but as i originally said, all things being equal (both sides having roughly the same strength) then Robert was the likely winner as he seems to the best military leader we have seen in the series. Tywin is certainly up there, but if we are talking about military command then Robert has the edge, Tywin having the ability to hire a 20k army is less to do with military leadership and more to do with wealth, which is not what the discussion is about. Tywin would have won the war for the crown if he joined them during Roberts Rebellion, however a straight up fight between the two of them as generals with roughly equal forces and Robert gets the edge, he is the most respected military leader in the series. Did Barristan or any of his other men allow him to fight two men at a time?
  2. why would he need to? are all the warriors with Robert simply going to allow that on the battlefield?
  3. yeah, he did, the proof is in the pudding, the castle held out for a year under siege, not a single castle does that for a quarter as long in the war of the five kings. no, this is what the world book has to say on the matter If the garrison's supplies had been sufficient to the task, the castle might have held out indefinitely, but the war had come quickly and the storehouses and granaries were only half-full. they were half full before Robert arrived, war was not expected, that is why they are half full but. that is demonstrably false since it was never taken. that is what happens when war comes out of nowhere, especially wars that start during a winter. What do you expect Robert to do, magic up some food. All castles will eventually succumb to a siege should the war last long enough, Tywin's capital is no different.
  4. I'm sorry but this is a bizarre conclusion to come to, the 12 year old Hound was not in the same league as Robert in his prime. Clearly this is not correct, Storm's end withstood a siege for a year and was never taken, Robert left it fine.
  5. There are two types of great military commanders, the type who come up with their own brilliant strategy and the type who are willing to listen and take the counsel of their subordinates, Robert falls into the latter. There is a comment from Jorah which captures this "Robert should have been born Dothraki," he said at last. "Your khal would tell you that only a coward hides behind stone walls instead of facing his enemy with a blade in hand. The Usurper would agree. He is a strong man, brave … and rash enough to meet a Dothraki horde in the open field. But the men around him, well, their pipers play a different tune. His brother Stannis, Lord Tywin Lannister, Eddard Stark …" On top of that Robert is an incredible fugurehead, a leader who can get smaller armies to defeat larger equivlent armies, the only commander we have actually do that in the series well the battle of Gulltown did not feature either Hoster Tully or Ned while Robert was with any of them when he won the three battles of Summerhall. It is unclear if Robert actually needed their help to strategize, we only presume that is the case because the Robert we see clearly does not give a shit about ruling so comes across as a little stupid, but war and government are not the same and one can be gifted at one and a novice at the other. Well in fairness, Tywin out strategize himself with at first the mistaken belief that the north would not get involved and then doubling down and on the idea that the Frey's would remain neutral. Jaime not properly using scouts or alerting his sleeping army at Riverrun was more of a lannister blunder than Stark brilliance. and it should be pointed out that Ned's son left his capital exposed. There is actually a huge parallel between the two wars and why Robert won and Robb lost. GRRM: And sieges were a crucial part of medieval warfare. Storm's End was not geographically strategic, but it was the base of Robert's power, as important to House Baratheon as Winterfell was to the Starks. If it had fallen, Robert would have lost his home and his lands... and two of his brothers would have been hostages in enemy hands. All important chips. Also the fall of Storm's End might have convinced many of the storm lords supporting him that the time had come to bend the knee. So the castle was hardly unimportant. I disagree and too many people in the series have too high an opinion of Robert for their opinions not to be true. Robert's biggest weakness is his willingness to fight from the front, mistakes can happen to the greatest of warrior so he would always be vulnerable bit overall he is the best military leader we have seen in the series
  6. All things being equal then Robert is the likely winner, he is the most skilled military ruler we have seen in the series. Had Tywin joined Aerys at some point during Robert's Rebellion then Tywin would have won, the geopolitical of the situation would have meant that Riverland support would have been virtually nil for Roberrt given the position of the Westerlands and the numbers and respources of the Reach and Westerlands would have proved too much for the rebels
  7. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    why is that likely though? the Iron Islands, unlike Dorne, has always been part of the seven kingdoms. and the idea that Doran knows the population sizes of all the other kingdoms but they are clueless about his is a little suspect. well to be clear, I believe him, but the fact is his daughter and nieces were hell bent on starting a war they could not win, there is a very obvious reason why he would lie, after all he had been lying to her for some time about the whereabouts of her brother. He is more than capable of lying to his daughter if her knowing the truth can jeopardize his position. I still think he was being truthful but it is hardly problematic if others question it.
  8. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    Not a deflection. how on earth do you come to the conclusion that was a deflection? A deflection would be me ignoring your point or sidestepping it completely rather than examining what you actually said. Jojen was born and raised in a swamp, pointing out that he is not a great judge of character on farmland is a pertinent point, is it not? you really think that is the only time? how have you been a member of this forum for so long and came to a conclusion over something like this. the lords of the realm regularly send food and the watch regularly ask for more, the Watch is a service funded by the rest of the realm, it is not self sufficient "It was a long summer. The harvests were bountiful, the lords generous. We had enough laid by to see us through three years of winter. Four, with a bit of scrimping. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If it please my lord, what would you have of King Renly?" "The same things I'd have of all of them, lad. Men, horses, swords, armor, grain, cheese, wine, wool, nails . . . the Night's Watch is not proud, we take what is offered." we also know they are reliant on buying in food "Dareon, I am told that you sang at many a high lord's table and shared their meat and mead. We are sending you to Eastwatch. It may be your palate will be some help to Cotter Pyke when merchant galleys come trading. We are paying too dear for salt beef and pickled fish, and the quality of the olive oil we're getting has been frightful. sure, once in 300 years " In winters past, food could be brought up the kingsroad from the south, but with the war … it is still autumn, I know, but I would advise we go on winter rations nonetheless, if it please my lord." it is also not good land. it is not. how is pointing out that the teenage jojen was born and raised in a swamp a shitty thing to do? how precious are you being to try and paint this as something sinister? honestly, I have heard some dumb SJW arguments in my time but to see someone get offended on behalf of a fictional character because someone pointed out they were born and raised in a swamp and may not be a great authority on what is and is not good farmland may be the dumbest ever. well done! ah, so rather than reply to them you have chosen to reply to me. that is good of you.
  9. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    Jojen claims that this? that is was this land and this land alone that fed the Queen's entourage? Seems an obscure thing for the singers and the storytellers of the realm to focus on, but if that is what you think who am I to convince you otherwise. Seems odd that the realm still sends so much food north. There are orchids in the Yukon, but that does not mean I would necessarily say that it was good farmland but then that is because I am English and it is all relative. What would be classed as good farmland to someone in the neck is going to be vastly different to someone on the red fork. All I am pointing out is that a teenager born and raised in a swamp may well not be the most reliable judge of what is 'good' farmland. No idea how that is so controversial, but that seems to be where we are. well no shit, has anyone claimed that it was?
  10. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    the trouble with this argument is that it can be flipped back on the Starks and Winterfell, it can be flipped on the Umbers or Karstarks being unable to provide enough people to farm the north or the North in general were the Kingsroad even close to the Wall, is no longer a safe place to be. The entire North has become vulnerable without its army, the Hornwoods are not some exception to the rule. Yep, a thousand years ago. What possible changes could have taken place in the last thousand years Correction, not all northerners, the Reeds who grew up in a swamp and had to hunt for frogs, actual noble children, were actually taught to hunt for frogs. To swamp dwellers I daresay most dry land seems an improvement of sorts. they could be. The Karstarks are actually the only Northern House we have a very good idea of their strength. From what they supplied Robb at Winterfell, and in comparison to the Manderlys, we can assume they are one of the more powerful Northern bannermen in terms of numbers, though obviously it being mostly foot limits them. Yup, after summer some, maybe most, to sacrifice themselves from the upcoming winter. Them doing nothing during Summer when Bran and Rickon were captured speaks volumes, much of these 3,000 are working stiffs. All the North is likely to have these kind of men available in winter, death in battle is better than starvation. No one is downgrading them, we genuinely have no idea what their power is. We have no idea how many men they sent with Robb, all we know is it was too many and the harvest suffered as a result. Meanwhile come ADWD they have two forces of roughly 400 each; one of grey beards and the other green boys and it is not looking pretty for one faction. There can be no down or up grading on the Umbers given that they are largely a mystery to us.
  11. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    Not significantly, at least not as far as we know. When Tyrion looks out upon the enemy army it is the Hornwood's who he notices first Gods be damned, look at them all, Tyrion thought, though he knew his father had more men on the field. Their captains led them on armored warhorses, standard-bearers riding alongside with their banners. He glimpsed the bull moose of the Hornwoods, the Karstark sunburst, Lord Cerwyn's battle-axe, and the mailed fist of the Glovers … and the twin towers of Frey, blue on grey. but fails to see any Umbers... or Boltons The Greatjon getting upset over the thought of them being above him in the march could mean a few things, they are relatively new, they are smaller or he was threatened by their size. And when Lord Umber, who was called the Greatjon by his men and stood as tall as Hodor and twice as wide, threatened to take his forces home if he was placed behind the Hornwoods or the Cerwyns in the order of march, Robb told him he was welcome to do so. When Cat comes upon the Northern army, like Tyrion, it is the Hornwoods she notices first On a stony outcrop of land higher than the surrounding country, they passed a lord's pavilion with walls of heavy sailcloth. Catelyn recognized the banner, the bull moose of the Hornwoods, brown on its dark orange field. and there are still a decent amount men left in Roose's host as he still sends some to guard his rear before the Red Wedding bolton's voice was soft, but certain. "I left six hundred men at the ford. Spearmen from the rills, the mountains, and the White Knife, a hundred Hornwood longbows, some freeriders and hedge knights, and a strong force of Stout and Cerwyn men to stiffen them. Ronnel Stout and Ser Kyle Condon have the command. back in the North, despite their own troubles in their own lands, they were still one of the few Houses to send support to Rodrik when Winterfell was captured Theon studied their banners through Maester Luwin's Myrish lens tube. The Cerwyn battle-axe flapped bravely wherever he looked, and there were Tallhart trees as well, and mermen from White Harbor. Less common were the sigils of Flint and Karstark. Here and there he even saw the bull moose of the Hornwoods. But no Glovers, Asha saw to them, no Boltons from the Dreadfort, no Umbers come down from the shadow of the Wall and some even joined their new leige lord in helping rid Moat Cailin of the Ironborn And now the Bastard of Bolton was riding south with Hother Umber to join them for an attack on Moat Cailin. "The Whoresbane his own self," claimed a riverman who'd just brought a load of hides and timber down the White Knife, "with three hundred spearmen and a hundred archers. Some Hornwood men have joined them, and Cerwyns too." They hardly seem insignificant. Possibly below the Boltons and Manderlys, mostly due to how strong we presume them to be, but not that different from the average northern house, probably inbetween the Karstarks and Umbers.
  12. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    No, it was both. Go back and read. We have no idea how big the Barrrowlands are from east to west or really north to south. We can guess, but that is about that so when someone claims that the Dustins are the biggest landowners in Westeros pointing out that we don't actually know that for a fact is the correct response, as we don't. The author is purposefully vague and even the maps in the world book, the first time we have canon borders, there seems to be some mistakes.
  13. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    Possibly, but then we are told the Starks rule the North, while we know that is not entirely true as they don't actually control the Gift or the New Gift. We are also told the Tully's rule the Riverlands yet we know of Pennytree. being ruled by the crown rather than the Tullys. "Pennytree. That was ours once too, but it's been a royal fief for a hundred years." Concerning the Barrowlands we know that the Ryswells own land on the Barrowlands "There are ghosts here," Bran said. Hodor had heard all the stories before, but Jojen might not have. "Old ghosts, from before the Old King, even before Aegon the Dragon, seventy-nine deserters who went south to be outlaws. One was Lord Ryswell's youngest son, so when they reached the barrowlands they sought shelter at his castle, but Lord Ryswell took them captive and returned them to the Nightfort." and given we are told that both Robert's journey into and out of the North took place on the kingsroad and is mentioned that it is part of the Barrowlands then it seems incredibly peculiar that the Dustins have never been tasked with defending Moat Cailin, which seems to clearly be Stark property GRRM is purposefully a vague writer, him (or Ran, I'm not sure who is responsible for the wording in the world book) him saying that the Dustins rule the Barrowlands is not the same as him saying they rule all of the Barrowlands. Given the other evidence on the subject it is clearly not known which way it is.
  14. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    But then we are told that at least one of the Ryswell castles are located in the Barrowlands "Old ghosts, from before the Old King, even before Aegon the Dragon, seventy-nine deserters who went south to be outlaws. One was Lord Ryswell's youngest son, so when they reached the barrowlands they sought shelter at his castle, but Lord Ryswell took them captive and returned them to the Nightfort. - ASOS So it can't be entirely correct that they rule all of the barrowlands
  15. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    We have no idea how many men he had left, or if any freys took part in other battles such as the battle of the red fork, or even how many battles there were in the riverlands both before he battle of the red fork or between the battle of the red fork and the fishfeed. there is an awful lot of missing information. he may well have fought in the battle of the red fork and returned home for reinforcements what we do know, unless the author is lying, is that the battle of the fishfeed was not the first battle in the war that forrest frey had fought in.
  16. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    we do know, it is said in the quote. and yet we are told that Frey had fought gallantly UNTIL, the Fishfeed. the fishfeed was not his first battle in that war. read the actual quotes I gave you It was during the early days of the Dance that Prince Daemon Targaryen led Queen Rhaenyra's forces to a bloodless victory at Harrenhal, seizing the castle and making it a rallying place for her supporters. There were many such supporters in the riverlands, who rose in their thousands and joined the prince's host in Rhaenyra's name. Notable amongst them was the puissant knight, Lord Forrest Frey how can he be notable amongst them if he was not there? how can he have fought gallantlhy until the fishfeed if that was his first actual battle? the war kicks of in 129, the battle of the fishfeed happens in mid 130 and there are a lot of battles we are not told about, though the constant changes in who leads the Westerland host is a good example of there frequent battles. not really. you are guessing, nothing more. we are all, even I'm guessing Ran, clueless when it comes to the boundaries and territories of the vast majority of the lords of westeros. When it comes to the Dustins we have no idea how far their land extends north, or how far the Cerwyn's or Tallharts land extend south. we know the Dustins don't rule the lands around moat cailin, so we have no idea how far their lands extend east or where their border are with the Ryswells. The biggest indication of their power is in the fact that lady Dustin could challenge Roose White Harbor might prove troublesome should Lord Wyman survive this coming battle … but I am quite sure that he will not. No more than Stannis. Roose will remove both of them, as he removed the Young Wolf. Who else is there?" "You," said Theon. "There is you. The Lady of Barrowton, a Dustin by marriage, a Ryswell by birth." That pleased her. She took a sip of wine, her dark eyes sparkling, and said, "The widow of Barrowton … and yes, if I so choose, I could be an inconvenience. Of course, Roose sees that too, so he takes care to keep me sweet." but beyond that we have no idea of their military power or how many people live in their lands, so while I don't claim they are not as powerful as you think they are, I just don't think there is enough information to back up your claim. i'm sorry, i am still lost on what point you were trying to make. again, eh? is this some kind of smoking gun? we know the freys are wealthy, the author himself describes them as such in the appendix while Cat, daughter of one overlord and married to another, describes them as such. now either the author has been playing an elaborate hoax with the reader about something as pointless as a secondary house's wealth or the two times he described some of their warriors is not a true indication of all of them any more than the two Stout guards is a reflection for the entire Dustin military force. and? the incognito prince joins the smith, the acolyte at the citadel and the stout guards in being the only people rich enough to wear such equipment. twice. one random group of men at an inn, clearly ready for war and the second the frey pikemen. dude, i can say hand on heart no one is winning at this discussion, not you, not me and not the poor bastards who are still reading it it seemed like that is exactly what you were asking me. no idea your point i gave you a clear example, not sure why you are not trying to move the goalposts, oh wait a minute, it is obvious why you are now trying to change the argument.
  17. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    It is hardly pedantry, we have no idea about where their boundaries are, for example where do the Slates of Blackpool now reside? we have no idea how far either the Tallhart or Cerwyn lands extend south, who technically rules Moat Cailin, if it the Starks how much of that domain extends West into the Barrowlands. We are basically clueless about a lot of things of territories in all of Westeros, do all the lords hold just blobs of lands or do they have multiple demesnes scattered around. So given the huge gaps we have in knowledge it is hardly pedantry to point out that we have no idea which lord in the north holds the most, second most etc. land in the North.
  18. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    by all means quote where this is either said or even suggested in the books.
  19. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    because that quote is very clear ....Lord Forrest fought gallantly for the queen he had loved, until the Fishfeed, the fishfeed was not his first battle in the war, as that sentence makes zero sense if it was, and that is not the only quote that backs it up It was during the early days of the Dance that Prince Daemon Targaryen led Queen Rhaenyra's forces to a bloodless victory at Harrenhal, seizing the castle and making it a rallying place for her supporters. There were many such supporters in the riverlands, who rose in their thousands and joined the prince's host in Rhaenyra's name. Notable amongst them was the puissant knight, Lord Forrest Frey this battle takes place early in 129, the Fishfeed was one of the last battles in 130. there was a lot of battles in between. it may well be new, that does not mean Forret or other Frey's had not taken part in any of the other battles that tool part before that. and where are the boundaries for the Dustins land? it is impossible to claim one lords lands are larger when you have no idea how big the Dustin's holdings are, you are merely guessing to win an argument on the internet. enough for what? what exactly do you think you are proving? eh? why on earth are you bringing up the Florents? I'm sorry, you completely lost me, was this reply actually meant for me? eh? The Florents are rich, and they have a high proportion of knights and almost as many knights as the Freys. Beyond that I have no idea what point you are trying to make. The Florents are also clearly richer than House Stout or the smith who works on the shield islands despite what some of them are wearing. everyone in the series wears boiled leather, we have seen the Thenn's beyond the Wall, the BWB and the Ironborn. Are you really under the impression that the Frey' can not afford 'boiled leather'. Is that really your sincere belief? A prince posing as a common knight. and yet the man who fought before him, Talbert Serry, was not described as wearing it. Either it means that GRRM does not describe every character's clothing or that the smith was richer than the lord he served. Does it really take that much common sense to work out the answer to this one? brigandine is mentioned 3 times in the five main books, are you really under the impression that these are the only characters who wear it? an apprentice Maester, a smith and two Stout guards? "Tyrell swords will make me king. Rowan and Tarly and Caron will make me king, with axe and mace and warhammer. Tarth arrows and Penrose lances, Fossoway, Cuy, Mullendore, Estermont, Selmy, Hightower, Oakheart, Crane, Caswell, Blackbar, Morrigen, Beesbury, Shermer, Dunn, Footly . . . Mullendore, Beesbury and Cuy are all vassals of House Hightower, they are not all lumped together as one.
  20. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    It is right there in the quote ....Lord Forrest fought gallantly for the queen he had loved, until the Fishfeed, where he was amongst many lords and knights killed in the war's bloodiest battle. the Fishfeed was not the Frey's entry into the battle, and the Fishfeed takes place in 130, the war had started a year earlier in 129. The reason for the low numbers from the Riverland Houses is pretty clear they had been fighting for around a year, casualties are going to mount. i eh? I have no idea what this means. When Renly lists the Houses that support the Hightowers and their Lordly vassals are listed apart. Them being listed apart means nothing. Though, I'm not sure what this had to do with my point. The North is huge, pretty much most of the lords own a huge expanse of land. I'm not sure what your point is here. I'll provide quotes for the boundaries of the Bolton lands when you provide quotes for the Dustin lands. lol so your argument that a couple of soldiers seen in decent Armour means the Dustins are now more powerful than a House with around 4k soldiers, 1k of which was just knights. We have not seen any Lannister l men wear Brigandine either, going by your logic I guess you think the Dustins are more powerful than them as well. Nor do we see any of the Kingsguard, Loras, Garlan, Renly in fact the vast majority of the richest characters in the world don't wear it. We have seen it mentioned four times, a man Victarion presumed was a Smith, the few guards of House Stout, the disguised Alleras and the incognito Daemon Blackfyre II. Four times it is mentioned in the entire series, and only once for someone who is actually fighting in a war. No, you are jumping to conclusions. There is not a single piece of evidence that suggests that the Winter Wolves were all Dustin men. Cregan had sent a small force while it was still summer and the rest of his force came when it was winter. Nowhere in the Seven Kingdoms did the winter matter more than in the North—and the fear of such a winter had driven the Winter Wolves to gather beneath the banner of Lord Roderick Dustin and die fighting for queen Rhaenyra. But behind them came a greater army of childless and homeless men, unwed men, old men, and younger sons, under the banner of Lord Cregan Stark. They had come for a war, for adventure and plunder, and for a glorious death to spare their kin beyond the Neck one more mouth to feed. The Winter Wolves are led by Dustin, but there is nothing to indicate that they are all Dustin men. The Manderly force was tiny in comparion, in the hundreds rather than the thousands Ser Medrick Manderly, leading a hundred White Harbor men, did the same for the area northeast of Aegon’s High Hill, down to the Iron Gate. and they are always referred to as White harbor or Manderly men, the Winter Wolves are not.
  21. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    The Glovers also are descended from Kings, it does not really mean much in the present day. Who knows how large their 'kingdom' once was. What we do know is that it was the Boltons who were the last to submit and the biggest threat to the Starks. Looking at the map there seems to be as much potential land for the Boltons as there is for the Dustins. There is also three major rivers that possibly are on their land. And we saw how many Stout men wear it? Two of his guards? No, that is ridiculous. They were led by a Dustin, it stands to reason that would be where the Winter Wolves north of Barrowton would gather before marching. For someone who has created so many threads on this subject it suprises how many details you overlook. This was not the Freys, or the Riverlands or Westerlands, first battle. They had been fighting for around a year, starting in 129 while the battle of the Fishfeed occurred in 130 There were many such supporters in the riverlands, who rose in their thousands and joined the prince's host in Rhaenyra's name. Notable amongst them was the puissant knight, Lord Forrest Frey, who had once been a suitor for Rhaenyra's hand.....Lord Forrest fought gallantly for the queen he had loved, until the Fishfeed, where he was amongst many lords and knights killed in the war's bloodiest battle. eh?
  22. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    On what basis are the Dustins ahead of the Boltons? Certainly nothing seen in the books. Which bannerman equips his men better than the Freys? How many of the 1,000 Frey knights are worse equipped that these soldiers you are referring to? Sure, but just because they are led by a Dustin does not mean they are all Dustin men. The Greatjon and his brood are powerful, but there is little to suggest that as a House they are. The Karstarks provided far more men and there is little mention from Tyrion of their banners when he is facing the 17k Northern army on the Green Fork. From what we have seen they are not that powerful. The Vances are likely the third most powerful given it is only them and the Freys who has a Lordly bannerman, while the rest of the Riverlords would just have knightly and petty lords as their vassals. they share control of Gulltown, they don't control it all.
  23. Bernie Mac

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    No, he can only be proclaimed when it is official. While Aerys was alive he was the King, Robert can only be proclaimed after his death/removal from power before that he was a Pretender. Robert had no crown, did not call himself King. He may have announced his intention to be the next king, but he could not (and did not) proclaim that he was King before he was actually crowned. Is there any need for that? Someone said something you don't agree with, is there any need for the name calling? No, he has not. Robert certainly does not think that, he is very worried about the Aerys children while we have seen that both Dany and (F)Aegon have backers who view them as the real monarchs despite their father/grandfathers actions. Really? Which nobility have claimed this? Again, seems needlessly antagonistic. I don't know why you have to overreact to people not agreeing with your opinion on a fictional universe. eh? Citation for the last part? But still royalty. The idea that Mace would turn down the opportunity of his daughter being Queen, his grandchildren prince's and princess's just because one of them would not be King is ludicrous. The knowledge he never shares, even when he is begging Ned to arrest Cersei as he is fearful for his life? Seems an odd time not to share this information. Both Littlefinger and Varys have spies, Renly as far as we know does not. Stannis suspected and brought this information to Arryn, for some strange reason he never brought the information to Renly. Pycelle helped Arryn with his investiagtion There is a reason why Renly and Barristan are in the dark, neither have spies and Stannis refused to tell them. YES, HIM, THEY BACK HIM TO BE KING. They don't back Stannis. Wrong. He only rebelled after Renly married his daughter. Being friendly with someone is not the same as backing a rebellion. The perception of him is that he would not. And his own quotes are pretty clear that if he had the power he would have sent the traitors to the dungeon. He is however going to have to live the rest of his life under Stannis as King. Why would he want that? Except you have failed to prove that he could bring the Tyrells or the other Reach lords into the fold. Fighting for the hugely popular Renly to be King is very different than rebelling for Stannis. Characters, well written ones, can have more than one motive. I agree, Renly is ambitious, but he is also scared of Cersei and seeing what happened to Ned and then being summoned to court or lose his lands likely forced his hand.
  24. Bernie Mac

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    lol You are also forgetting how incredibly humble you are. And Renly as Master of Law and the Kings Brother has all of that in spades. It seems odd that someone as intelligent as yourself can not see that? Do you want to explain how being best friends with the Queen's brother is going to give the current Master of Law more influence and more access to the King that Renly currently has? No he does not. Not once in the books does Robert complain that the Lannisters control his court. You are offering a disingenuous argument here. In the show he does, in the books he does not. How much power do you think squires have? And this is the best you can come up with? There are three people from the Stormlands sitting on the the Small Council and zero people from the Westerlands yet the Lannisters dominate because they have two squires to the King, squires who are literally treated like shit by the King? Please explain how Lancel and Tyrek are more dominant in the affairs government than Robert's two brothers, the Master of Law and the Master of Ships? Citation? There is zero evidence to suggest any of Robert's Kingsguard got their position due to Cersei. Barristan and Jaime were already in before Robert was even betrothed to Cersei, Meryn Trant is a Stormlander, Aerys Oakheart makes zero mention of this in his POV (nor does Cersei for that matter in any of her POVs), Mandon Moore from the Vale. Possibly Preston Greenfield got his appointment due to Cersei, though there is zero evidence to actually suggest that. So so far your big evidence is squires and some made up shit that is not backed up by the books. You are not off to a good start. Nicknamed the dog. Hugely influential, right? Look at how weak your argument is that you have to resort to repeating claims you made just a paragraph ago. Yes. Jon Arryn is able to appoint a fellow Vale man, someone his wife recommended him, to become the Master of Coin. As we see from Tyrion the Master of Coin is responsible for a huge amount of appointments. And in the process, he moved his own men into place. The Keepers of the Keys were his, all four. The King's Counter and the King's Scales were men he'd named. The officers in charge of all three mints. Harbormasters, tax farmers, customs sergeants, wool factors, toll collectors, pursers, wine factors; nine of every ten belonged to Littlefinger. They were men of middling birth, by and large; merchants' sons, lesser lordlings, sometimes even foreigners, but judging from their results, far more able than their highborn predecessors. No one had ever thought to question the appointments, and why should they? Littlefinger was no threat to anyone. The men of the Small Council are responsible for the hiring of the bureaucracy of the Government. Both the Master of Law and the Master of Ships would have similar titles to hand out. Because of two squires and the Hound? Come on. And yet she is clearly not doing a good job at it. Under Margaery the Lords Tyrell, Redwyne, Tarly and Rowan all sat on the Small Coucil. There was talk of other Tyrells coming in to act as Grandmaester and Master of Coin (with Garth's sons taking prominent positions in the Gold Cloaks). The Lannister so called dominance is nowhere near that of the Tyrells or other royal consort factions. Why says the Tyrells were as greedy and grasping as the Lannisters under Robert? And all the examples I gave show just what real dominance looks like. The Lannisters are less dominant than House Baratheon is and at a similar level to House Arryn under Jon. And Tywin is sitting on his arse while this happens? Tywin was able to beat Ned to Kings Landing when Ned was much closer to Kings Landing than Storm's End is. And how does it happens months before? lol minutes? Making up bullshit does not add credibility to an already poorly thought out argument. Except Robb is clear that Tommen comes before Stannis and Robb does not feel that Tommen or Myrcella have wronged him. "That makes him evil," Robb replied. "I do not know that it makes Renly king. Joffrey is still Robert's eldest trueborn son, so the throne is rightfully his by all the laws of the realm. Were he to die, and I mean to see that he does, he has a younger brother. Tommen is next in line after Joffrey." Except he does not as Tyrion and the author himself make it abundantly clear that the only reason Tywin leaves for the Westerlands is that Stannis should have been stuck at Storm's End for months. "Both of them." Storm's End was strong, it should have been able to hold out for half a year or more . . . time enough for his father to finish with Robb Stark. "How did this happen?" - Tyrion Storm's End is a hugely formidable castle, and should have been able to hold out much longer, as it did during Robert's Rebellion when Stannis was inside rather than outside. And both Tyrion and Tywin knew that Stannis was a methodical commander rather than a daring one, and therefore would be unlikely to leave an enemy stronghold untaken in his rear. -GRRM He actually does not given that Tywin's force at the nearby Harrenhal, the force at Kings Landing and the Walls of Kings Landing should be more than enough to cope with Stannis' 21k. You are. Renly has a claim, it is why the Tyrells get into bed with him in the first place. He does not have the best claim, no one has claimed that, but when you say that Renly has zero claim it is quite clear that you are confusing the words heir and claim. The Tyrells and the largest army gathered in the war of the five kings seem to disagree with that. Well there is you problem, you are presuming that the laws you have in your head carry as much weight in GRRM's fictional universe. They don't, that is why he gets to be right. Well, the short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history... which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpertations, and often contradictory. -GRRM Renly was happy to reward his brother with Storm's End for stepping aside. Except he does not. Both his words and actions make it perfectly clear that he does not know. Why does he not share this information with Ned when he is warning Ned that their lives are in danger from Cersei? Why does he need someone who is the spitting image of Robert's lost love Lyanna if he does not need to tempt Robert to end his marriage? Why does no one come to this same conclusion, incuding Cat and Stannis, when he reveals his plans to marry Robert to Margaery? First of all he does not know. That is canon until further evidence comes forward. Second of all no one claimed he was next in line. Had someone claimed this then you would finally be right about something, sadly no one has. Unless they can teleport that is not likely. You do realise both Littlefinger and Varys have spies, right? Renly, to the readers knowledge, does not. Arryn was told by Stannis and they actually don't know, they suspect (and are correct), but knowing and suspecting are two different things. Renly claims he did not know, none of his actions make it seem that he did know so until further evidence comes along it is canon that he did not know. lol you repeating this does not make it any more true.
  25. Bernie Mac

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    Did you actually read what he said? Renly, by the factor of being Robert's brother, has been given the Stormlands and sits on the Small Council, having one of the most influential potions in the realm. What more does he have to gain from Margaery being Queen? What benefits are the best friends of Jaime and Tyrion Lannister having that Renly is missing out on? Which is not actually true. The Hand's of the King have been Robert's two best friends, his brothers both hold hugely important roles on the Small Council, in fact there is not a single Westerland person who sits on the Small Council. And Tyrion's look into the positions that Littlefinger was responsible show that the Lannisters were not nearly as dominant as claimed. It is always important to look at who is making such a claim and Ned, bless him, is very clear on his prejudices on the Lannisters while having pretty much zero clue on how it should be. We have seen enough history to see that the entourage that the Queen for the last 18 years has had is not that unusual when you compare it to the Hightowers & Strongs under Viserys and his heir Rhaenyra, the Martells under Daeron II, the Tyrells under Tommen or the host of father of the consorts of Maegor and Aegon IV. If the Lannisters were dominating, and it really does not appear that they were, it certainly was not by much given how well represented both the Stormlands and Vale were in Robert's government. Because of the Queen you mean? Is there any reason why the Queen should not have some kind of influence on these things? And of course you are overstating it. Jaime was a member of Robert's the Kingsguard before Cersei was Queen and Robert having Lannister squires is hardly evidence given that Johanna, Tywin and his uncle Tion all served similar positions at court under Aegon. The Lannisters are the richest House in the realm, with or without a Queen they should be one of the most influential Houses at court. Nope, not even. As Renly can only count on some of the Stormlords. So then why does Stannis not get this full support after Renly's death? Quite a large amount of his force is from the Reach. Yes, between the three Baratheon claimants, not two. They still remain split. And I still don't see why Renly should support Stannis to usurp the Crown? Or why he'd want Stannis to be King given his obvious disdain he shows for his brother. No, not before Stannis sent out his letter it was not. And even then it looks incredibly opportunistic for Stannis' to send out such a letter. No, not really. Of the 5 kings only 1 king, Stannis, is questioning the legitimacy of Joffrey's birth. And it just so happens that he has the least amount of support than all the 5 factions. eh? Why should he do that when he has made it clear with both his words and actions that he knew nothing of the incest? And the Tyrells dont want Stannis as King. Why would they ally with him, a man they don't like and a man married to their biggest rivals in the Reach? Lords Tyrell and Redwyne are older than Stannis. Serving under him as King for the rest of their lives likely does not seem that appealing. Well no. Renly warns Ned that should Cersei get into power they would both be in danger, Ned, from Renly's perspective of the conversation, ignores this and subsequently gets arrested and executed after Renly has fled while a royal decree that Renly and every other major Lord be summoned to Kings Landing to pledge their allegiance to the King or have their lands and titles forfeit. Because Ned, like Stannis, chose to leave Renly in the dark he has every reason to suspect that he would share Ned's fate should he return to the capital. Yeah he does. You are confusing the words heir and claim. He has a weaker claim than his nephews and Stannis but he does have a claim similar to how Robert had a claim despite Viserys, Dany and their mother all still being alive. Yeah, this argument always confuses me as people seem to think nepotism is only about family when it is just as much about friends as well. Davos was an appointment of nepotism as he was probably one of the worst qualified people among Stannis' vassals for such an appointment and this is shown clearly as Davos is still pretty much doing the same role for Stannis, his messenger for support, that he was doing at the beginning of ACOK. His job has not changed, his title has. In fact Tywin, despite being Joffrey's grandfather, is a more meritocratic appointment than Davos given that he was actually the best qualified amongst Joffrey's vassals for such a position.
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