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Bernie Mac

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Everything posted by Bernie Mac

  1. Bernie Mac

    Military Strengths and More!

    yeah, there is. As GRRM says, it is all to do with the honorific title, there are real Lords and petty lords, there is a clear difference in their standing. sometimes he will tell the reader, such like when he clearly points out the Stouts only being petty The riders had been sixteen days on the hunt, with only hard bread and salt beef to eat, aside from the occasional stolen kid, so that night Lord Ramsay commanded that a feast be laid to celebrate his return to Barrowton. Their host, a grizzled one-armed petty lord by the name of Harwood Stout, or when we are told about the Spicers, another petty house. Jon gives a pretty decent descrition of them "The map is not the land, my father often said. Men have lived in the high valleys and mountain meadows for thousands of years, ruled by their clan chiefs. Petty lords, you would call them, though they do not use such titles amongst themselves." A petty lord is about the same level as a clan house, probably a similar level to knightly houses but below actual Lords it is hardly tiny. it is about the same size as Driftmark which once had two towns on it. no, the Caron's lands are forfeit because their lord died, the Caron's are Lords according to the appendix "the one-eyed knight Ser Philip Foote, who had slain Lord Bryce Caron in single combat...."It is His Grace's wish that these good men be rewarded for their valor. By his decree, Ser Philip shall henceforth be Lord Philip of House Foote, and to him shall go all the lands, rights, and incomes of House Caron" i don't recall House Caron ever being referred to as less than Lord. some may be, but not in title and rights. A Lord is, title wise at least, more influential and powerful than a petty lord who is still essentially governing someother's lands. You have no idea that is true since the Charton's are not mentioned till much, much later in the series. Again, you are merely guessing. I don't know, neither of us know.
  2. Bernie Mac

    Military Strengths and More!

    I have no idea, I never claimed to know just pointing out that the books are pretty clear, 'he fought gallantly, until the fishfeed''. Now the war started in 129, the battle of Harrenhal being one of the first early with quite a few known battles in between and towards at some point in 130 was the battle of the Fishfeed. there is around a year of war between his introduction and his death, he may have been involved in a couple he may have been involved in many more, the point being is we don't know except that he was regarded to have fought gallantly in the war and made a large enough impact that the world book remembered his contribution. neither of us have any idea. though what I would point out is that due to the field of fire I kind of doubt any Lord would want his entire host in one place when it can so easily be decimated from above. that would explain that even in the early stages of the war, such as the sack of Duskendale, we are seeing such low numbers what? is this some rule of thumb you have made up? the Karstarks go to Winterfell with 2,000 foot and 300 horse. the Manderly's send 300 cavalry and 1,300 hundred foot with Robb. I'm not getting your point, nor do I see where it is claimed that Forrest had his entire force present, the North certainly did not. they are not answered because the books have not answered them, by all means quote from the text where you think it does and I will happily go over it. neither of have any idea, do we? why do you keep on mentioning 'well seasoned'?, all you are doing is making me peckish
  3. Bernie Mac

    Military Strengths and More!

    the Manderly's don't have any Lordly vassals that we know of, they have petty lords and knights the Dustins don't have any Lordly vassals that we know of, they have petty lords like the Stouts from the appendix of ADWD HARWOOD STOUT, her liege man, a petty lord at Barrowton, by the time we met the Osgrey's they were only knights, we know they were much greater under the Gardener Kings but they had diminished given what we know "The paper said that if Ser Eustace were to die without a male heir of his body, Standfast would revert to the crown, and Lord Webber's privileges would end." and Rohanne shortly marrying after the events of the Mystery Knight it is safe to assume they no longer exist. what Lordly Houses serve the Rowans in the current series? I guess they once had the Webbers but since none of Rohanne's Lannister children took the Webber lands it is not to clear what their status is though I concede, they well may be another. I did make clear 'that we know'. they may well do, I kind of assume them and the Fowlers, as Wardens of their respective passes, may well be the have Lordly vassals. but I was only going by what we know. house Baelish is a petty house: It was interesting to watch his face. Lord Petyr's father had been the smallest of small lords, his grandfather a landless hedge knight; by birth, he held no more than a few stony acres on the windswept shore of the Fingers. His position on the small council made him an actual Lord, but House Baelish were nothing more than petty lords. Unfortunately GRRM didn't bother making many distinctions, so it has led to this confusion As I see it, the title "lord" -- when used formally, and not simply as an honorific --conveys not only prestige, but certain legal rights as well. _grrm pretty much every noble is given the honorific lord or lady when spoken to even when that is not their actual rank possibly, we don't know that for a fact. the Stouts are and the Smallwoods are not, they serve the Vances of Wayfarers Rest who, as I originally stated, are one of the four none overlord Houses we know who have Lordly vassals. i'm still not clear on your meaning and how it relates to the Freys and Chartlons. Walder Frey likely has influence over his son in law Lord Vypren, what does this have to do with the conversation? no, we have seen around 6k. a few hundred of the 2k force going North are peasants, and as GRRM makes clear all armies are going to include those but the north is much bigger, so it takes longer for an army to gather. And life is harsher there as well, so lords and smallfolk both need to think carefully before beating those plowshares into swords.
  4. Bernie Mac

    Military Strengths and More!

    Come on, is there any need to misrepresent what I said because you don't like that we have different opinion? Lord Charlton is not like any other Frey vassal, it is a Lordly House, not a knightly or petty lord House like the vast, vast majority of vassals in Westeros. We have no idea where their lands (they may be much further south) are or if the Tully's would not be sending them a raven directly. During the Dance they arrived desperately, there is zero reason to not assume the same would not be true in the war of the five kings. There are only four none overlord Houses in all of Westeros who we know have Lordly vassals, Hightower, Royce, Frey and Vance of Wayfarer's Rest. We have no idea how these relationships are or how independent they can be. We only have to look at the Dance of the Dragons to see that the relationship between Hightower and their Lordly vassals is not so straightforward as the Beesburys, Costanyes and Mullendores all sided against the Hightowers. how is out of context? the full strength was not at the Twins, was it not? they were defending their lands. Do you think either Frey or Charlton would just abandon the Charlton castles? except we don't know who they serve. given that their lands are within the Vale I'd imagine that they serve under the Arryn's. they are certainly not bannermen of Royce. what exactly is your point here? but there is a difference, they hold more authority and power than the knights (presumably the masterly Houses as well, but we still don't know) they are not regular vassals given they rule their own lands and have powers to do what other vassals can not do come on, this is some weak sauce. I am not claiming I am right, I am just pointing out that you are guessing on the matter, and not even an educated guess as you seem to ignoring any evidence that suggests you are wrong. this thread is only good when it offers dependable information, not when you randomly guess and then ignore the text when it suits your argument like you did with the Forrest Frey quote which clearly states that the Fishfeed was not his first battle in the Dance yet because you wrong thought they Freys only had 800 men refused to aknwoledge the books as evidennce as it did nt fit your own head cannon. are the Charlton's petty lords? either you know the difference or you are are just trying to muddy the water rather than admit your conclusion is based on nothing more than a guess. yup, what on earth does this have to do with the Freys and Charlton? and I am pointing out that given that we have seen around 6k frey soldiers in the war that 4k was clearly not their entire force. a plausible reason for this is that it is possible that Lord Charlton's vassals were either on his own lands or with Edmure.
  5. Bernie Mac

    Military Strengths and More!

    except of that force he has sent 500 knights as well as And at the rear, more Freys. At least a thousand, maybe more: bowmen, spearmen, peasants armed with scythes and sharpened sticks, freeriders and mounted archers, and another hundred knights to stiffen them. which is only around 200 with peasants of that 1,500 force, possibly more given Theon states that it at least 1,500 while Jaime is informed that 2,000 Freys are sent North on top of that we have the 2,000 Freys at Riverrun the garrison at the Twins around 400 the Frey party that helps holds Darry, the 50 men with Arwood and the Haighs hunting outlaws however many Freys are at Seagard with Black Walder that is 4-5k they have in ADWD but then we have to take into account their losses 50 at the red wedding at the battle of the green fork the Freys would have lost between 700- 1,000 men, given that Bolton had his men in reserve possibly even more a 1,000 knights went with Robb's 5k heavy horse, Robb's 5k was whittled down to 3.5k by his return from the Westerlands so we would be looking at 200-300 frey losses here that would mean the Frey total is between 5.5k to 6.5k during the war.
  6. Bernie Mac

    Military Strengths and More!

    sure, every army seems to have those Most of them were smallfolk: crofters, fieldhands, fishermen, sheepherders, the sons of innkeeps and traders and tanners, leavened with a smattering of sellswords and freeriders hungry for plunder. When their lords called, they came … but not forever. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ but the north is much bigger, so it takes longer for an army to gather. And life is harsher there as well, so lords and smallfolk both need to think carefully before beating those plowshares into swords. but the fact remains that the Frey army is significantly bigger in ADWD than it should be if they only had 4k men to begin with. Yes, his Frey men. Lord Charlton is a lord, he would have his own castle and lands that would need defending if he had not already made it to Riverrun. It is even pointed out by the Blackfish that it is only most of his strength "Most of Lord Walder's strength remains massed at the Twins, though." It is vague. The Tallharts are counted separately despite not being a Lordly House when Roddrik assembles an army to deal with the Ironborn, Theon looks upon them as an individual host The lords, Coldwater and Tollett who serve Royce are considered separate forces in AFFC "He means to come in force. Symond Templeton will join him, do not doubt it. And Lady Waynwood too, I fear." "And Lord Belmore, Young Lord Hunter, Horton Redfort. They will bring Strong Sam Stone, the Tolletts, the Shetts, the Coldwaters... " it is vague.. there is no reason to they were not. There is nothing to suggest that this had happened in Walder's lifetime, that leaves either the 70 years after the Dance or at some point in the 430 years before the Dance. and it could have happened centuries ago, I'm not sure your point other than you would rather make one assumption than the other based on nothing more than a flip of the coin.
  7. Bernie Mac

    Military Strengths and More!

    GRRM not describing every detail in the first book does not mean it was not fleshed out in his work, pointless overwhelming the reader with everything at once. We know of Ryswell and Dustin in AGOT while logically we can work out that Houses Locke, Rywell, Dustin and both Flints added around 5-6k to Robb's host. and numbers wise we see see the Frey numbers significantly increase in AFFC from what we are told they are in AGOT. Adding the Charlton's to their numbers in AFFC is a plausible reason for this significant increase. except we have no idea were the Charlton lands are. If they are south of the Twins it will have been pointless them going to the Twins and unlikely that Edmure would not send Lord Chalrton a raven, as you yourself pointed out they joined separately in the Dance.
  8. Bernie Mac

    Military Strengths and More!

    Lord Charlton is not mentioned to be among the 4k in AGOT. He'd either be at Riverrun or defending his own lands, but there is nothing to suggest that he was at the Twins at the start of the series.
  9. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    But then we are told that at least one of the Ryswell castles are located in the Barrowlands "Old ghosts, from before the Old King, even before Aegon the Dragon, seventy-nine deserters who went south to be outlaws. One was Lord Ryswell's youngest son, so when they reached the barrowlands they sought shelter at his castle, but Lord Ryswell took them captive and returned them to the Nightfort. - ASOS So it can't be entirely correct that they rule all of the barrowlands
  10. Bernie Mac

    Military Strengths and More!

    what calculations? can we see them?
  11. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    We have no idea how many men he had left, or if any freys took part in other battles such as the battle of the red fork, or even how many battles there were in the riverlands both before he battle of the red fork or between the battle of the red fork and the fishfeed. there is an awful lot of missing information. he may well have fought in the battle of the red fork and returned home for reinforcements what we do know, unless the author is lying, is that the battle of the fishfeed was not the first battle in the war that forrest frey had fought in.
  12. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    we do know, it is said in the quote. and yet we are told that Frey had fought gallantly UNTIL, the Fishfeed. the fishfeed was not his first battle in that war. read the actual quotes I gave you It was during the early days of the Dance that Prince Daemon Targaryen led Queen Rhaenyra's forces to a bloodless victory at Harrenhal, seizing the castle and making it a rallying place for her supporters. There were many such supporters in the riverlands, who rose in their thousands and joined the prince's host in Rhaenyra's name. Notable amongst them was the puissant knight, Lord Forrest Frey how can he be notable amongst them if he was not there? how can he have fought gallantlhy until the fishfeed if that was his first actual battle? the war kicks of in 129, the battle of the fishfeed happens in mid 130 and there are a lot of battles we are not told about, though the constant changes in who leads the Westerland host is a good example of there frequent battles. not really. you are guessing, nothing more. we are all, even I'm guessing Ran, clueless when it comes to the boundaries and territories of the vast majority of the lords of westeros. When it comes to the Dustins we have no idea how far their land extends north, or how far the Cerwyn's or Tallharts land extend south. we know the Dustins don't rule the lands around moat cailin, so we have no idea how far their lands extend east or where their border are with the Ryswells. The biggest indication of their power is in the fact that lady Dustin could challenge Roose White Harbor might prove troublesome should Lord Wyman survive this coming battle … but I am quite sure that he will not. No more than Stannis. Roose will remove both of them, as he removed the Young Wolf. Who else is there?" "You," said Theon. "There is you. The Lady of Barrowton, a Dustin by marriage, a Ryswell by birth." That pleased her. She took a sip of wine, her dark eyes sparkling, and said, "The widow of Barrowton … and yes, if I so choose, I could be an inconvenience. Of course, Roose sees that too, so he takes care to keep me sweet." but beyond that we have no idea of their military power or how many people live in their lands, so while I don't claim they are not as powerful as you think they are, I just don't think there is enough information to back up your claim. i'm sorry, i am still lost on what point you were trying to make. again, eh? is this some kind of smoking gun? we know the freys are wealthy, the author himself describes them as such in the appendix while Cat, daughter of one overlord and married to another, describes them as such. now either the author has been playing an elaborate hoax with the reader about something as pointless as a secondary house's wealth or the two times he described some of their warriors is not a true indication of all of them any more than the two Stout guards is a reflection for the entire Dustin military force. and? the incognito prince joins the smith, the acolyte at the citadel and the stout guards in being the only people rich enough to wear such equipment. twice. one random group of men at an inn, clearly ready for war and the second the frey pikemen. dude, i can say hand on heart no one is winning at this discussion, not you, not me and not the poor bastards who are still reading it it seemed like that is exactly what you were asking me. no idea your point i gave you a clear example, not sure why you are not trying to move the goalposts, oh wait a minute, it is obvious why you are now trying to change the argument.
  13. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    It is hardly pedantry, we have no idea about where their boundaries are, for example where do the Slates of Blackpool now reside? we have no idea how far either the Tallhart or Cerwyn lands extend south, who technically rules Moat Cailin, if it the Starks how much of that domain extends West into the Barrowlands. We are basically clueless about a lot of things of territories in all of Westeros, do all the lords hold just blobs of lands or do they have multiple demesnes scattered around. So given the huge gaps we have in knowledge it is hardly pedantry to point out that we have no idea which lord in the north holds the most, second most etc. land in the North.
  14. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    by all means quote where this is either said or even suggested in the books.
  15. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    because that quote is very clear ....Lord Forrest fought gallantly for the queen he had loved, until the Fishfeed, the fishfeed was not his first battle in the war, as that sentence makes zero sense if it was, and that is not the only quote that backs it up It was during the early days of the Dance that Prince Daemon Targaryen led Queen Rhaenyra's forces to a bloodless victory at Harrenhal, seizing the castle and making it a rallying place for her supporters. There were many such supporters in the riverlands, who rose in their thousands and joined the prince's host in Rhaenyra's name. Notable amongst them was the puissant knight, Lord Forrest Frey this battle takes place early in 129, the Fishfeed was one of the last battles in 130. there was a lot of battles in between. it may well be new, that does not mean Forret or other Frey's had not taken part in any of the other battles that tool part before that. and where are the boundaries for the Dustins land? it is impossible to claim one lords lands are larger when you have no idea how big the Dustin's holdings are, you are merely guessing to win an argument on the internet. enough for what? what exactly do you think you are proving? eh? why on earth are you bringing up the Florents? I'm sorry, you completely lost me, was this reply actually meant for me? eh? The Florents are rich, and they have a high proportion of knights and almost as many knights as the Freys. Beyond that I have no idea what point you are trying to make. The Florents are also clearly richer than House Stout or the smith who works on the shield islands despite what some of them are wearing. everyone in the series wears boiled leather, we have seen the Thenn's beyond the Wall, the BWB and the Ironborn. Are you really under the impression that the Frey' can not afford 'boiled leather'. Is that really your sincere belief? A prince posing as a common knight. and yet the man who fought before him, Talbert Serry, was not described as wearing it. Either it means that GRRM does not describe every character's clothing or that the smith was richer than the lord he served. Does it really take that much common sense to work out the answer to this one? brigandine is mentioned 3 times in the five main books, are you really under the impression that these are the only characters who wear it? an apprentice Maester, a smith and two Stout guards? "Tyrell swords will make me king. Rowan and Tarly and Caron will make me king, with axe and mace and warhammer. Tarth arrows and Penrose lances, Fossoway, Cuy, Mullendore, Estermont, Selmy, Hightower, Oakheart, Crane, Caswell, Blackbar, Morrigen, Beesbury, Shermer, Dunn, Footly . . . Mullendore, Beesbury and Cuy are all vassals of House Hightower, they are not all lumped together as one.
  16. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    It is right there in the quote ....Lord Forrest fought gallantly for the queen he had loved, until the Fishfeed, where he was amongst many lords and knights killed in the war's bloodiest battle. the Fishfeed was not the Frey's entry into the battle, and the Fishfeed takes place in 130, the war had started a year earlier in 129. The reason for the low numbers from the Riverland Houses is pretty clear they had been fighting for around a year, casualties are going to mount. i eh? I have no idea what this means. When Renly lists the Houses that support the Hightowers and their Lordly vassals are listed apart. Them being listed apart means nothing. Though, I'm not sure what this had to do with my point. The North is huge, pretty much most of the lords own a huge expanse of land. I'm not sure what your point is here. I'll provide quotes for the boundaries of the Bolton lands when you provide quotes for the Dustin lands. lol so your argument that a couple of soldiers seen in decent Armour means the Dustins are now more powerful than a House with around 4k soldiers, 1k of which was just knights. We have not seen any Lannister l men wear Brigandine either, going by your logic I guess you think the Dustins are more powerful than them as well. Nor do we see any of the Kingsguard, Loras, Garlan, Renly in fact the vast majority of the richest characters in the world don't wear it. We have seen it mentioned four times, a man Victarion presumed was a Smith, the few guards of House Stout, the disguised Alleras and the incognito Daemon Blackfyre II. Four times it is mentioned in the entire series, and only once for someone who is actually fighting in a war. No, you are jumping to conclusions. There is not a single piece of evidence that suggests that the Winter Wolves were all Dustin men. Cregan had sent a small force while it was still summer and the rest of his force came when it was winter. Nowhere in the Seven Kingdoms did the winter matter more than in the North—and the fear of such a winter had driven the Winter Wolves to gather beneath the banner of Lord Roderick Dustin and die fighting for queen Rhaenyra. But behind them came a greater army of childless and homeless men, unwed men, old men, and younger sons, under the banner of Lord Cregan Stark. They had come for a war, for adventure and plunder, and for a glorious death to spare their kin beyond the Neck one more mouth to feed. The Winter Wolves are led by Dustin, but there is nothing to indicate that they are all Dustin men. The Manderly force was tiny in comparion, in the hundreds rather than the thousands Ser Medrick Manderly, leading a hundred White Harbor men, did the same for the area northeast of Aegon’s High Hill, down to the Iron Gate. and they are always referred to as White harbor or Manderly men, the Winter Wolves are not.
  17. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    The Glovers also are descended from Kings, it does not really mean much in the present day. Who knows how large their 'kingdom' once was. What we do know is that it was the Boltons who were the last to submit and the biggest threat to the Starks. Looking at the map there seems to be as much potential land for the Boltons as there is for the Dustins. There is also three major rivers that possibly are on their land. And we saw how many Stout men wear it? Two of his guards? No, that is ridiculous. They were led by a Dustin, it stands to reason that would be where the Winter Wolves north of Barrowton would gather before marching. For someone who has created so many threads on this subject it suprises how many details you overlook. This was not the Freys, or the Riverlands or Westerlands, first battle. They had been fighting for around a year, starting in 129 while the battle of the Fishfeed occurred in 130 There were many such supporters in the riverlands, who rose in their thousands and joined the prince's host in Rhaenyra's name. Notable amongst them was the puissant knight, Lord Forrest Frey, who had once been a suitor for Rhaenyra's hand.....Lord Forrest fought gallantly for the queen he had loved, until the Fishfeed, where he was amongst many lords and knights killed in the war's bloodiest battle. eh?
  18. Bernie Mac

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    On what basis are the Dustins ahead of the Boltons? Certainly nothing seen in the books. Which bannerman equips his men better than the Freys? How many of the 1,000 Frey knights are worse equipped that these soldiers you are referring to? Sure, but just because they are led by a Dustin does not mean they are all Dustin men. The Greatjon and his brood are powerful, but there is little to suggest that as a House they are. The Karstarks provided far more men and there is little mention from Tyrion of their banners when he is facing the 17k Northern army on the Green Fork. From what we have seen they are not that powerful. The Vances are likely the third most powerful given it is only them and the Freys who has a Lordly bannerman, while the rest of the Riverlords would just have knightly and petty lords as their vassals. they share control of Gulltown, they don't control it all.
  19. Bernie Mac

    Military Strengths and More!

    Have many people actually made that argument?
  20. Bernie Mac

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    No, he can only be proclaimed when it is official. While Aerys was alive he was the King, Robert can only be proclaimed after his death/removal from power before that he was a Pretender. Robert had no crown, did not call himself King. He may have announced his intention to be the next king, but he could not (and did not) proclaim that he was King before he was actually crowned. Is there any need for that? Someone said something you don't agree with, is there any need for the name calling? No, he has not. Robert certainly does not think that, he is very worried about the Aerys children while we have seen that both Dany and (F)Aegon have backers who view them as the real monarchs despite their father/grandfathers actions. Really? Which nobility have claimed this? Again, seems needlessly antagonistic. I don't know why you have to overreact to people not agreeing with your opinion on a fictional universe. eh? Citation for the last part? But still royalty. The idea that Mace would turn down the opportunity of his daughter being Queen, his grandchildren prince's and princess's just because one of them would not be King is ludicrous. The knowledge he never shares, even when he is begging Ned to arrest Cersei as he is fearful for his life? Seems an odd time not to share this information. Both Littlefinger and Varys have spies, Renly as far as we know does not. Stannis suspected and brought this information to Arryn, for some strange reason he never brought the information to Renly. Pycelle helped Arryn with his investiagtion There is a reason why Renly and Barristan are in the dark, neither have spies and Stannis refused to tell them. YES, HIM, THEY BACK HIM TO BE KING. They don't back Stannis. Wrong. He only rebelled after Renly married his daughter. Being friendly with someone is not the same as backing a rebellion. The perception of him is that he would not. And his own quotes are pretty clear that if he had the power he would have sent the traitors to the dungeon. He is however going to have to live the rest of his life under Stannis as King. Why would he want that? Except you have failed to prove that he could bring the Tyrells or the other Reach lords into the fold. Fighting for the hugely popular Renly to be King is very different than rebelling for Stannis. Characters, well written ones, can have more than one motive. I agree, Renly is ambitious, but he is also scared of Cersei and seeing what happened to Ned and then being summoned to court or lose his lands likely forced his hand.
  21. Bernie Mac

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    lol You are also forgetting how incredibly humble you are. And Renly as Master of Law and the Kings Brother has all of that in spades. It seems odd that someone as intelligent as yourself can not see that? Do you want to explain how being best friends with the Queen's brother is going to give the current Master of Law more influence and more access to the King that Renly currently has? No he does not. Not once in the books does Robert complain that the Lannisters control his court. You are offering a disingenuous argument here. In the show he does, in the books he does not. How much power do you think squires have? And this is the best you can come up with? There are three people from the Stormlands sitting on the the Small Council and zero people from the Westerlands yet the Lannisters dominate because they have two squires to the King, squires who are literally treated like shit by the King? Please explain how Lancel and Tyrek are more dominant in the affairs government than Robert's two brothers, the Master of Law and the Master of Ships? Citation? There is zero evidence to suggest any of Robert's Kingsguard got their position due to Cersei. Barristan and Jaime were already in before Robert was even betrothed to Cersei, Meryn Trant is a Stormlander, Aerys Oakheart makes zero mention of this in his POV (nor does Cersei for that matter in any of her POVs), Mandon Moore from the Vale. Possibly Preston Greenfield got his appointment due to Cersei, though there is zero evidence to actually suggest that. So so far your big evidence is squires and some made up shit that is not backed up by the books. You are not off to a good start. Nicknamed the dog. Hugely influential, right? Look at how weak your argument is that you have to resort to repeating claims you made just a paragraph ago. Yes. Jon Arryn is able to appoint a fellow Vale man, someone his wife recommended him, to become the Master of Coin. As we see from Tyrion the Master of Coin is responsible for a huge amount of appointments. And in the process, he moved his own men into place. The Keepers of the Keys were his, all four. The King's Counter and the King's Scales were men he'd named. The officers in charge of all three mints. Harbormasters, tax farmers, customs sergeants, wool factors, toll collectors, pursers, wine factors; nine of every ten belonged to Littlefinger. They were men of middling birth, by and large; merchants' sons, lesser lordlings, sometimes even foreigners, but judging from their results, far more able than their highborn predecessors. No one had ever thought to question the appointments, and why should they? Littlefinger was no threat to anyone. The men of the Small Council are responsible for the hiring of the bureaucracy of the Government. Both the Master of Law and the Master of Ships would have similar titles to hand out. Because of two squires and the Hound? Come on. And yet she is clearly not doing a good job at it. Under Margaery the Lords Tyrell, Redwyne, Tarly and Rowan all sat on the Small Coucil. There was talk of other Tyrells coming in to act as Grandmaester and Master of Coin (with Garth's sons taking prominent positions in the Gold Cloaks). The Lannister so called dominance is nowhere near that of the Tyrells or other royal consort factions. Why says the Tyrells were as greedy and grasping as the Lannisters under Robert? And all the examples I gave show just what real dominance looks like. The Lannisters are less dominant than House Baratheon is and at a similar level to House Arryn under Jon. And Tywin is sitting on his arse while this happens? Tywin was able to beat Ned to Kings Landing when Ned was much closer to Kings Landing than Storm's End is. And how does it happens months before? lol minutes? Making up bullshit does not add credibility to an already poorly thought out argument. Except Robb is clear that Tommen comes before Stannis and Robb does not feel that Tommen or Myrcella have wronged him. "That makes him evil," Robb replied. "I do not know that it makes Renly king. Joffrey is still Robert's eldest trueborn son, so the throne is rightfully his by all the laws of the realm. Were he to die, and I mean to see that he does, he has a younger brother. Tommen is next in line after Joffrey." Except he does not as Tyrion and the author himself make it abundantly clear that the only reason Tywin leaves for the Westerlands is that Stannis should have been stuck at Storm's End for months. "Both of them." Storm's End was strong, it should have been able to hold out for half a year or more . . . time enough for his father to finish with Robb Stark. "How did this happen?" - Tyrion Storm's End is a hugely formidable castle, and should have been able to hold out much longer, as it did during Robert's Rebellion when Stannis was inside rather than outside. And both Tyrion and Tywin knew that Stannis was a methodical commander rather than a daring one, and therefore would be unlikely to leave an enemy stronghold untaken in his rear. -GRRM He actually does not given that Tywin's force at the nearby Harrenhal, the force at Kings Landing and the Walls of Kings Landing should be more than enough to cope with Stannis' 21k. You are. Renly has a claim, it is why the Tyrells get into bed with him in the first place. He does not have the best claim, no one has claimed that, but when you say that Renly has zero claim it is quite clear that you are confusing the words heir and claim. The Tyrells and the largest army gathered in the war of the five kings seem to disagree with that. Well there is you problem, you are presuming that the laws you have in your head carry as much weight in GRRM's fictional universe. They don't, that is why he gets to be right. Well, the short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history... which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpertations, and often contradictory. -GRRM Renly was happy to reward his brother with Storm's End for stepping aside. Except he does not. Both his words and actions make it perfectly clear that he does not know. Why does he not share this information with Ned when he is warning Ned that their lives are in danger from Cersei? Why does he need someone who is the spitting image of Robert's lost love Lyanna if he does not need to tempt Robert to end his marriage? Why does no one come to this same conclusion, incuding Cat and Stannis, when he reveals his plans to marry Robert to Margaery? First of all he does not know. That is canon until further evidence comes forward. Second of all no one claimed he was next in line. Had someone claimed this then you would finally be right about something, sadly no one has. Unless they can teleport that is not likely. You do realise both Littlefinger and Varys have spies, right? Renly, to the readers knowledge, does not. Arryn was told by Stannis and they actually don't know, they suspect (and are correct), but knowing and suspecting are two different things. Renly claims he did not know, none of his actions make it seem that he did know so until further evidence comes along it is canon that he did not know. lol you repeating this does not make it any more true.
  22. Bernie Mac

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    Did you actually read what he said? Renly, by the factor of being Robert's brother, has been given the Stormlands and sits on the Small Council, having one of the most influential potions in the realm. What more does he have to gain from Margaery being Queen? What benefits are the best friends of Jaime and Tyrion Lannister having that Renly is missing out on? Which is not actually true. The Hand's of the King have been Robert's two best friends, his brothers both hold hugely important roles on the Small Council, in fact there is not a single Westerland person who sits on the Small Council. And Tyrion's look into the positions that Littlefinger was responsible show that the Lannisters were not nearly as dominant as claimed. It is always important to look at who is making such a claim and Ned, bless him, is very clear on his prejudices on the Lannisters while having pretty much zero clue on how it should be. We have seen enough history to see that the entourage that the Queen for the last 18 years has had is not that unusual when you compare it to the Hightowers & Strongs under Viserys and his heir Rhaenyra, the Martells under Daeron II, the Tyrells under Tommen or the host of father of the consorts of Maegor and Aegon IV. If the Lannisters were dominating, and it really does not appear that they were, it certainly was not by much given how well represented both the Stormlands and Vale were in Robert's government. Because of the Queen you mean? Is there any reason why the Queen should not have some kind of influence on these things? And of course you are overstating it. Jaime was a member of Robert's the Kingsguard before Cersei was Queen and Robert having Lannister squires is hardly evidence given that Johanna, Tywin and his uncle Tion all served similar positions at court under Aegon. The Lannisters are the richest House in the realm, with or without a Queen they should be one of the most influential Houses at court. Nope, not even. As Renly can only count on some of the Stormlords. So then why does Stannis not get this full support after Renly's death? Quite a large amount of his force is from the Reach. Yes, between the three Baratheon claimants, not two. They still remain split. And I still don't see why Renly should support Stannis to usurp the Crown? Or why he'd want Stannis to be King given his obvious disdain he shows for his brother. No, not before Stannis sent out his letter it was not. And even then it looks incredibly opportunistic for Stannis' to send out such a letter. No, not really. Of the 5 kings only 1 king, Stannis, is questioning the legitimacy of Joffrey's birth. And it just so happens that he has the least amount of support than all the 5 factions. eh? Why should he do that when he has made it clear with both his words and actions that he knew nothing of the incest? And the Tyrells dont want Stannis as King. Why would they ally with him, a man they don't like and a man married to their biggest rivals in the Reach? Lords Tyrell and Redwyne are older than Stannis. Serving under him as King for the rest of their lives likely does not seem that appealing. Well no. Renly warns Ned that should Cersei get into power they would both be in danger, Ned, from Renly's perspective of the conversation, ignores this and subsequently gets arrested and executed after Renly has fled while a royal decree that Renly and every other major Lord be summoned to Kings Landing to pledge their allegiance to the King or have their lands and titles forfeit. Because Ned, like Stannis, chose to leave Renly in the dark he has every reason to suspect that he would share Ned's fate should he return to the capital. Yeah he does. You are confusing the words heir and claim. He has a weaker claim than his nephews and Stannis but he does have a claim similar to how Robert had a claim despite Viserys, Dany and their mother all still being alive. Yeah, this argument always confuses me as people seem to think nepotism is only about family when it is just as much about friends as well. Davos was an appointment of nepotism as he was probably one of the worst qualified people among Stannis' vassals for such an appointment and this is shown clearly as Davos is still pretty much doing the same role for Stannis, his messenger for support, that he was doing at the beginning of ACOK. His job has not changed, his title has. In fact Tywin, despite being Joffrey's grandfather, is a more meritocratic appointment than Davos given that he was actually the best qualified amongst Joffrey's vassals for such a position.
  23. Bernie Mac

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    He is aware that Cersei wants rid of him, something he tells Ned, so him wanting rid of Cersei is not just about making Mace Tyrell more powerful but there is also self preservation involved. But then he'd still be rebelling? If he is going to rebel why not rebel for himself as he knows, unlike his brother Stannis, that he is capable of getting the support needed to win and keep the crown. Worked for Robert while Viserys lived. I really don't think he was worried about legality as once King he can do what he pleases. He was also hoping that Stannis would see sense and support him.
  24. Bernie Mac

    Military Strengths and More!

    I kind of doubt that, certainly not for all three of them. We know that Robb was able to raise 12k at Wintfell from those three Houses, plus his own, the Boltons (around 2-3k), Karstark (2.3k), Umber, Mormont, Tallhart and the Mountain Clans. Now it stands to reason that the Starks supplied a similar amount to the Boltons and Karstarks. Maybe less, but we'd still be talking in the region of 2k meaning conservatively Stark, Bolton and Karstark alone make up at least 7k of the 12k assembled at Winterfell. For Hornwood, Glover and Cerywn to have those numbers, which does not even include their infantry, it would mean Umber, Mormont, Tallhart and the Mountain Clans supplied a combined number of less than 1k.
  25. Bernie Mac

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    That is a very good idea, but I have to say that your assessment of which characters next seems to be rather dubious. Why would Joffrey clearly be at the bottom? Renly is rebelling against the laws of the land, Robb as well but has a more justifiable reason while Stannis is at least convinced that he is right. I get that Joffrey is a despicable little shit, but I'm not really sure how he would clearly at the bottom in regards to law? From his perspective he was within his lawful right to execute Ned. Stannis wanted to ban one of the major business' in the land. He also appointed a smuggler as his chief adviser who has zero experience of rule. Why is he at the top? Why is Robb above Joffrey? We have seen nothing of Robb's thoughts on economy, a few Northern Lords have complained about not having enough men to bring in the harvest. Robb, for obvious reasons, has put his war ahead of the economy but I'm not sure that qualifes him to be ahead of either Joffrey or Balon. In fact the Iron Islands has the worst resources in the seven kingdoms and yet Balon has been able to rebuild their entire fleet. Sure. Robb had many of his key men turn against him. How is he better at politics than Balon? Joffrey's government were able to keep the Arryns and Martells neutral and bring the Tyrells on side through negotiation. How exactly is he bottom? How is Stannis second from top?
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