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Bernie Mac

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  1. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    Renly himself claims not to know. Without a single other source in the books either claiming or suggesting that he did know then so far the canon answer is that he did not know. Not even Stannis claimed that he did know and that is even after Stannis being told by Renly his plan to marry Margaery to Robert. Nor Varys, who uncovered Renly and the Tyrell's plot. Yes it is. Why do you think Walder Frey is still getting nobles marriages? Walder will have had around 40 heirs by the time he married a member of House Blackwood. Being a Queen comes with huge amount of influence. Having Royal grandchildren is hugely prestigious and also offers influence to the Tyrells. The fact that the current rulers of Westeros are descendants of a daughter was was fourth in line should make it clear how valued having royal relatives is. They seem to. It's not presented as a mystery. For starters you are referring to a quote from Olenna where she is specifically talking about Mace supporting Renly's rebellion to be King and then changing sides to Joffrey. Olenna did not want her son to rebel but the offer of his daughter as Queen and grandson as King was enough for him to rebel. The plan to try to tempt Robert with his daughter is not rebellion. Secondly the majority of Lords want their grandsons to Kings. It is a highly ambitious society. How do you know they barely know him? Littlefinger is the Master of Coin and the Tyrells have borrowed a substantial amount of money to the Crown. He's also the man who negotiated their alliance to the Crown at Bitterbridge. If Renly and the Tyrells were working with Littlefinger before Robert's death why does Renly go to Ned? Why does he not go to Littlefinger instead and have Cersei arrested and himself declared Regent. Both Seymour brothers, uncles of Edward VI, did just that, tried to rule the realm through control of their nephew. This series is loosely based on the War of the Roses, Richard III took charge of his royal nephews after his brother died and rid himself of the ambitious Woodvilles before the Princes in the Tower disappeared from history. Had Renly known surely that is what would have happened in the series rather than Renly fleeing and then later rebelling.
  2. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    France and England in the middle ages off the top of my head, but I'd say it was pretty common throughout Europe and feudal Japan, China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_royal_mistresses#Louis_X Many French mistresses came from some of the most powerful French families and were hugely influential while they were the paramours of the King, in turn granting titles and powers to their family and allies. Henry VIII to. While Anne was the more famous Boleyn, her sister was also briefly Henry's mistress and as a result her father was rewarded with rank. When Anne was Henry's mistress both her father and brother joined Henry's Privy Council. The Howards, the most powerful family in England at the time, tried to have a daughter (former wife of the King's dead bastard son) try to seduce the aged king so they could gain even more influence. Henry's opposite number in France, Francis I. reign was dominated by the influence of his paramours most famously Françoise de Foix.
  3. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    Robert was not wrong. By the time the series is over Dany and her invading foreign army will invade Westeros. She does not care that Robert is dead, she'd still be invading even if Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella were legitimate Baratheon heirs. Robert's decision was correct for the world he lived in. Jon Arryn, Ned Stark and Barristan were wrong on this occasion. She lives in that world. If the concept does not exist how is she using it? And she's not the first to use, it many other characters have talked about the same concept. Clearly the concept exists in Westeros. When characters bring up putting wives aside they are not looked at like they are speaking a different language. lol no, it is not. This is Cersei worried about being put aside due to Robert becoming more restless, not due to the truth "My husband grows more restless every day. Having Stark beside him will only make him worse. He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?" Robert is growing more and more unhappy in his life, he craves adventure and the past. His taking half of the royal court to Wintefell on a half year journey, him wanting to participate in tourneys after years of not even being in a suit of armour, presumably him going after younger women like the mother of Barra and his growing resentment of Joffrey are all evidence of him becoming more restless and unruly. No, he's King and not a cautious one nut a reckless one. If he knew the truth he's convinced that it is true he's not waiting on a court to decide if its true. Tywin may offer that to his son Tyrion but Robert would not. Ned who knows Robert as well as most knows exactly what Robert would do No, not really. He did not have a succession crisis before Joffrey was born and he would not have one had all three of Cersei's children died of natural causes. He has brothers and is still capable of having more heirs, he after all has a new born daughter in AGOT. He's also going down as the Usurper King. Robert only starts caring about his reputation when he is on his deathbed when he asks Ned if he was worse than Aerys. Your arguments thus far are not being true to the published work in the series. It is, but we have zero idea how they view putting wives aside or if Kings are above the law in this regard. There is no actual evidence that the Faith has an issue with king putting aside their wives. Quentyn Ball actually made his wife join the Silent Sisters so he could be eligible for the Kingsguard. There are ways for powerful men to get what they want and Robert is the most powerful man alive. I'm not saying he would do this, but that nothing suggests that an irresponsible King like Robert would not have the authority to do what he wanted. You are going to have to back this up with evidence as you are making assumptions about the Faith and the Laws of Westeros that, to my knowledge, have never been stated in the books. Your head cannon is your head cannon. Maegor did not pull this crap, he committed polygamy. I agree in regards to the marriage plan, but obviously once Robert was on his deathbed his priorities switched from ambition to self preservation.
  4. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    It could be. But we have Renly's words to Ned on Robert's deathbed expressly telling Ned that Cersei was a danger to the both of them, we also have Cersei's POV that she always planned on ridding herself of Stannis and Renly even before Ned became Hand. Loras is a champion Knight, the son of one of the most powerful Lords in the realm and an ambassador of the second wealthiest region. He's also liked by both Robert and the smallfolk. Loras does not need a reason to be at court. I think it can be both. Usually people make decisions based on a variety of reasons, Renly thinking Cersei is a threat while wanting to increase his influence are not mutually exclusive. Lord Renly took a step back, taut as a bowstring. "Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late . . . for both of us." Renly suspects that Cersei is against him and we know from Cersei's POV that she was. Also in this plan Joffrey would be King, Ned his regent, Sansa Queen. Renly does not actually increase his influence in the situation he presented to Ned, Ned does, Renly not so much. His plan seemed to be based on stopping Cersei gaining control.
  5. Bernie Mac

    Fair Compensation for House Frey

    How exactly did Tyrion endanger her life? That's quite the leap of logic right there. No, not all. The Starks, Lannisters, Barathtons and Littlefinger all contributed. True. He's also have been an oath breaker if he allowed a invading Northern army to use his bridge. He's an oath breaker regardless. Robb's also an oath breaker. Not sure why people get so hung up on breaking oaths as when ever there is a war almost everyone is breaking an oath of some kind. They didn't try, the succeeded. But yeah, no one is denying that Cersei and Jaime contributed. No, you are confused. There is no 'strong indications' there is a conspiracy theory. I get that people hate blaming Robb for his shitty decision making, but he was 16, well capable of making silly mistakes. If the Westerlings controlled him why not have him sue for peace? I actually agree with this. There would be no Red Wedding though, but Walder and many other Lords 'sworn' to Robb would have began to back away from him after the Battle of Blackwater. He could not win at that point.
  6. Bernie Mac

    Fair Compensation for House Frey

    Name the laws Robert is breaking and we can further discuss it. Right now we know that Cat broke Robert's law. Ned did not think his wife was in the right and lied to cover her ass. Clearly when both the King and the Hand think you've broken the law then you've broken the law. I assume that post is to me but the formatting is a mess and I can't work out what it says. Happy to reply to it when you've fixed it.
  7. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    If Robert finds out the truth Cersei would not be put aside, she'd be executed. GRRM knows what the term 'set aside' means, as he has used it multiple times in the works on the series. I agree with you that Robert would likely need plausible reasons to set aside his wife. Renly does not think that. Renly thinks the Warhammer is all you need as king. Well the timing is awfully convenient. Stannis said nothing while Robert was alive Stannis said nothing after Robert died Stannis said nothing after Ned was executed Stannis said nothing until after both Robb Stark and Renly crowned themselves On top of that he offers zero evidence, expects his word is good enough. They'd probably care more if he offered some substantial evidence, but Robert lived his entire life with his acknowledged heirs, waiting till Robert has died seems suspicious, self serving. Everyone talks about Renly upsetting the wold of Westeros by usurping his nephews/brothers throne. but a relative declaring a dead mans children as bastards after the father is dead without evidence is a far greater worry for the Lords and Ladies of Westeros. Every seat in the realm becomes vulnerable. Renly at least had to get more support than any other king to usurp his throne. Is there any part of the text that suggest that? This sounds an awful lot like clutching at straws. No, he points out that they are fighting and tomorrow Stannis will be dead. Renly sounds happy about the news Stannis brings. Usurping a dead brother's children is not something that will make him popular. Usurping bastards will. Why would Renly need to lie? His entire army are supporting him usurping the throne already. Him usurping one person instead of four should be zero difference. Renly's worry is the Lannisters, it is not Stannis. He can far easily beat Stannis than he could the Lannisters. No, not exactly. Stannis sent out that letter to the kingdom and not a single Lord was influenced by that letter. Stannis tried to get support and got none. Renly expecting Stannis to have some common sense on the matter, support his brother who can win and be given Storm's End as a compromise is much better than certain defeat with 5,000 men. Renly is not lying, Stannis himself points out in the prologue that he can not possibly win the Throne with the few men he has. Unfortunately for Renly, Stannis is being told by someone with magical powers that he can beat Renly and gain his army. It is not exactly a lie expecting Stannis to join him. It is the whole reason Renly offers to parlay with Stannis and his 5,000 Onion knights rather than simply attack and massacre an invading army. Renly believes in compromise, he offers both Stannis and Robb rewards in offer for their support. I never claimed it was impossible. I pointed out that as far as we know in the series it was never an option brought up. Renly was only 21, he was the younger brother of the King, like Stannis, it should be presumed that Robert would arrange a marriage for him rather than Renly just randomly pick. At the very least he'd need to consult with the King. If Renly wants less Cersei Lannister influence at court then him marrying a Lannister is not going to do that, if anything it is going to increase it. If Cersei Lannister see's Renly as a threat, which she did, him being married to one of her cousins is not going to change that. The only thing that would change that is Renly acting as her catspaw, something Renly was not prepared to do while his brother lived. We don't know why Cerse wanted both Baratheon brothers dead, but it is likely to do with Robert giving them his lands, lands that by right should have gone to Robert and Cersei's children. With Stannis and Renly out the way those lands go to her kids. See this is another problem you are making for yourself. We the reader know that Robert was killed by the Lannisters, Renly does not. He assumes the boar killed Robert, just like he assumes Jon Arryn died of a fever. Had he suspected the Lannisters of being responsible for either he'd be telling Ned, that would be his reason for Ned to arrest the Queen. He does not. They could do. How does any of the above prove he knew about the incest? And you know what ends Cersei influence, telling Robert his suspicions. A far quicker way to remove Cersei is tell Robert what he suspects.
  8. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    No one said it was a fool proof plan. Renly is 21, he's only been Master of Law a few years so his time at court is a fairly recent thing, Margaery is only 14. There are obvious reasons why Renly did not try to implement this plan earlier, he was not in a positon to do so. Also Renly does not really care about the rules. He establishes this when he is blasé about usurping Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella and Stannis' place for the Throne. He cites Robert as his inspiration, Robert did what he wanted to become King, Renly is in the same boat. Renly shrugged. "Tell me, what right did my brother Robert ever have to the Iron Throne?" He did not wait for an answer. "Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer." That is Renly's line of thinking. That Robert did what he wanted. In Renly's mind if Robert wants to put aside his wife he will put aside his wife. That is established in the text. Do most of you not realize that Robert is dead, Renly is dead. This minor plot is very unlikely to be further explained in the last two books as it does not need to be. It is not important. What is currently canon is that Renly did not know. While it is true he may have lied until such a claim in the books is made (NO CHARACTER HAS SAID OR EVEN IMPLIED THAT RENLY LIED ABOUT THIS) then Renly being in the dark remains the cannon answer. First of all that entire paragraph is a huge assumption. Robert is not an old man. He, like Viserys I before him, could have potentially lived for 30, 40 more years. The Hightowers and Tyrells would see great advantage to their Houses with a Hightower/Tyrell queen in those decades. A Queen is an immensely powerful positon, it is powerful regardless whether her child inherits. Younger royal siblings are powerful regardless if they are not first in line. Ned notes that Cersei's influence at court is too much, that is what the Tyrells want. GRRM can't exactly tell the reader the sheer amount of titles and positions the royal court hands out, he can only do so much world building, but we should assume they exist. Look at how much influence Littlefinger gained in a few years as Master of Coin and the amount of positons he was able to give away And in the process, he moved his own men into place. The Keepers of the Keys were his, all four. The King's Counter and the King's Scales were men he'd named. The officers in charge of all three mints. Harbormasters, tax farmers, customs sergeants, wool factors, toll collectors, pursers, wine factors; nine of every ten belonged to Littlefinger. They were men of middling birth, by and large; merchants' sons, lesser lordlings, sometimes even foreigners, but judging from their results, far more able than their highborn predecessors. The Queen would have even more influence, if she was beloved by the King she can exceed Cersei's influence.
  9. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    That was not a recent event, that happened 5/6 years ago before the series began. I'm not sure how much Robert really cared for his oldest daughter, he'd not seen her since she was an infant, did not acknowledge her as his child and allowed her to grow up herding mules. As the Lord of the Stormlands and then King of Westeros it was in his power to do better for her, he did nothing. Guy, even by Westeros standards, was a deadbeat dad.
  10. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    Tyrion knew. His reaction to Jaime while they were still in Winterfell makes that clear The maester thinks the boy may yet live." He took a sip of beer. Myrcella gave a happy gasp, and Tommen smiled nervously, but it was not the children Tyrion was watching. The glance that passed between Jaime and Cersei lasted no more than a second, but he did not miss it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Oh, yes," Tyrion admitted. "I hope the boy does wake. I would be most interested to hear what he might have to say." His brother's smile curdled like sour milk. "Tyrion, my sweet brother," he said darkly, "there are times when you give me cause to wonder whose side you are on." He even reveals the truth to Jon Snow Tyrion found himself oddly touched. "Most of my kin are bastards," he said with a wry smile, "but you're the first I've had to friend." He pulled a glove off with his teeth and clasped Snow by the hand, flesh against flesh. The boy's grip was firm and strong. And he reveals to Cersie that he knew before Stannis accusations make it to Kings Landing "Yes," he said quietly, "but it's Jaime you want." His sister fancied herself subtle, but he had grown up with her. He could read her face like one of his favorite books, and what he read now was rage, and fear, and despair. "Jaime—" "—is my brother no less than yours," Tyrion interrupted. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Be gentle, Cersei, I'm only jesting with you. If truth be told, I'd sooner have a nice whore. I never understood what Jaime saw in you, apart from his own reflection." Tyrion had always known about his brother and sister. He is shocked about being abducted because he's innocent of the crime Cat is accusing him of. That is the natural reaction to being accused of a crime you did not commit. Especially when Tyrion had seen the awoken Bran at Winterfell on his way back South and no accusations were made. If the Starks were going to arrest him they'd have done so in their domain, the North, rather than do so in the Riverlands as Tyrion was making his way to the capital.
  11. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    Not to be rude, but do you have issues with reading comprehension? At no point have I stated that women can not have children in their 20's. What I did say is that in the middle ages, there was a shorter window for childbirth from a Lady, what with miscarriages and infant mortality that window decreased. That is not to say that every woman can not give birth after a certain age but the accepted thought of the day was to marry early. As I mentioned in another post the actual middle ages did think like this but GRRM seems to have took a step further in his fictional universe with most noble women marrying and procreating while still a teenager. So a marriage between a 14 year old girl and an 8 year boy is rare. We have 300 years of Westeros history with the ages of many, many marriages. Maegor's marriage seems to be the only one I can think of that ended in disaster. I'm just pointing this out. If something is rare it is not likely to happen, not that it is impossible. In the series Tywin did not want that marriage happen, he wanted Jaime to marry Margaery instead as he wanted an heir between their two Houses ASAP. The Tyrells, holding all the power, were able to demand Tommen in that situation. From what we know of Robert and Cersei they were unlikely to entertain their 8 year old being betrothed to an older woman as they, for the benefit of their dynasty, want Tommen to enter into a marriage were he may not produce as many heirs as they wish for. No, they don't. If I start a thread stating how aliens might crash into Winterfell in the TWOW I'd expect people to point out that is extremely unlikely to happen. That is all I'm doing, explaining to you why such a marriage in 298 was unlikely to happen. Noble males can marry in their own sweet time, noble females get pressured into early marriage. GRRM is clear that this system sucks, but that was the custom of the time. So why did they not? I'm offering you reasons why they did not and you seem to be unhappy with them. We know they were planning on attempted marriage to Robert. That is cannon. I'm sorry you don't like that, but we have not one source, not two sources but three sources on that happening. Two of them very credible. Renly barely knew his parents while his older brother Stannis is bald. A child looking like their mother is not suspicious, even in Westeros. Ned does not suspect that Edmure is the father of most of his children. The idea that Cersei's children look more like Cersei than their father is not a big issue in Westeros, not unless you are looking for evidence that they are not and research into the subject and even then it still not conclusive. We the reader know the truth because Cersei revealed it, but readers not reacting that it is obvious is bizarre. It's not obvious in their world just like it would not be obvious in ours. But Renly does not have the bastards according to the books. And why would he believe they were bastards but not that they were Robert's children? One is not more believable than the other. Believing that the Queen cheated on the king is actually far more likely that believing that the Queen cheated on Robert for the last 15 years and all three of their children are not Robert's. Yes, it does. In the middle ages that was treason for a Queen. Anne Boelyn cheated on the King, Henry did not have to be convinced their daughter was not his for him to believe this. The proof that Renly did not know has already been given to you. He laughs at the story. The fact that his actions also indicate he did not know is just extra, or that Varys did not think he knew are just extra. Apart from Arya all of Ned's children look more like Edmure than they do Ned. Children looking like their mother is not evidence, it is not even suspicious. The Baratheons of Kings Landing are the most famous family in the realm, their likeness will have been described to everyone. In 15 years only a handful of people suspect the truth and one of those handful had literal spies in the Walls of the Red Keep. You act like knowing that they are bastards is obvious, its not. Why do you think I'm taking it personally? I've replied to you the same amount of times you've replied to me. The forum is here to discuss, no one is claiming you can't, it would be decent if you'd not try to shut down discussion from others to suggest they are taking something personally. It is a fictional universe of fictional characters. Nope, the text never says the only reason he could put aside his wife because they believed they did not consummate the marriage. If you think the books state that then please quote it as I'm happy to be proven wrong. And? The possibility of putting a wife aside was made possible to Maegor. At no point is it stated there are only certain reasons why he could do that. If you think the book does say that please quote it as I'm happy to be proven wrong. So the books are clear, Wives can be put aside. Thank you. eh? Where does it say that in the books? In the many times putting aside a wife is mentioned as an option where does it state that only certain cases can? I'm happy to be proven wrong on the subject, but please quote the evidence rather than relying on your interpretation of the text. Yes, he did refuse it but the fact that his brother thought it was an option means it is an option. THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO YOU, IN WESTEROS IT IS BELEIVED THAT IT IS AN OPTION. We actually don't know that. There is zero evidence that it was not consummated, or is there? And your point here is what? Your original argument was that the only reason he did not put aside his wofe was that he was fearful of the consequences. Clearly that is not the case. How so? Where is it claimed that wives with children can not be put aside? Where is it claimed that owing money to Lords means a king can not displease them? Some kings have actually purposefully started wars with people they were in debt to as a means to avoid paying the debt. Dude, you still don't get it. This might not make sense to you, but this book is based on the real middle ages where families were willing to risk daughters in such a way. This is based on historical fact. It is not like we are talking dragons here, we are talking events that happened in real life. I don't think 13 year olds marrying makes sense, but it happened in these times. Do you not see how odd your position on this is? Reddit is an echo chamber. The great thing about a forum like this is that both of our opinions are equally valid, on Reddit is all about populism, people tend to upvote what they want to be right and sometimes downvote the truth if they don't like it. Obviously its nice feeling having your opinion validated by others but it does not make it any more correct. A good example on Reddit was last the last American elections. Reddit was convinced that Sanders would beat Clinton, any topic in r/politics that suggests that Clinton might win was downvoted to oblivion. Clinton won. Then it changed and and topic in r/politics that suggested that Trump would beat Clinton was downvoted to oblivion. Trump won. Right now on Reddit any topic that suggests that Biden may win the democratic nomination is heavily downvoted despite him clearly being in the lead in all polling. Reddit is an echo chamber. Yes, he cares for his children deeply. He still sends his teenage son Loras, his most beloved, off to fight battles against much older and renowned warriors, still sends him in the Vanguard in wars. Again, this kind of shit happened in our own middle ages, Mace willing to send one teenage child into battle and the other to seduce a powerful man was not uncommon in our own history with real life Lords. GRRM is not basing the book on what makes sense to you, he's basing it on the middle ages. He's not shown to be cautious. He rebels against the Throne and crowns Renly. In ADWD he marches on Strorm's End when he hears the Golden Companions have taken it. He murders and imprisons Stannis supporters at Bitterbridge despite not knowing who would win the throne. Reddit might tell you that Mace is cautious but his actions in the series show that he is not. His mother wanted him to be cautious, he ignored her. And? He has sons, he has nephews, nieces, cousins. The Tyrells are like the Lannisters, they are a huge family. Yes, that was the plan. Plans sometimes fail, sometimes they have a plan B. Pretty much every lord does. Did he know for a fact? Of course not, no one is suggesting that. But he suspected and thanks to Cersei's POV chapter we know he was right. Everyone has intuition. Renly's, in regards to Cersei, happened to be bang on the money. I find it weird that you have no problem with Stannis' intuition when it comes to the bastards, but seem to be perplexed at the idea of any other character being able to figure things out for themselves. Sorry, where in the books is it mentioned Renly had the option of marrying a Lannister. Renly wants less Cersei influence, marrying one of her cousins increases her influence, it does not decrease it. Once he's sired an heir from a Lannister bride his life may be over. Renly is already elevated. Unless Robert makes him his Hand he can't elevate any higher. Cersei did not think Renly and Stannis knew, she still wanted them dead before she killed Robert according to her own POV. Why not? But they still failed, right? You acknowledge that right? Almost succeeding is still failing, surely we should not be arguing over that. No one plans on failure. It does not have to be. Just a heads up, no one is trying to stop you from posting, you don't need to say that, if you don't feel like posting on this subject any more then don't but don't feel the need to do so because other people disagree with you. Your opinion on this subject is as equally valid as anyones.
  12. Bernie Mac

    Fair Compensation for House Frey

    I'm not sure that is true. Each time Harrenhal was given away the lands seem to be reduced with its other lands given away. House Reyne was the most powerful vassal in the Westerlands, his vassals still existed, they will have been sworn to other Houses rather than remain independent, Most likely the Presters and Marbrands, Tywin's cousins and allies in that war, will have picked up extra lands as a reward. I very much doubt the Spicers are the second most powerful House in the Westerlands. D'oh. Meant Walder. You are a little bit. You are confusing Ned sticking up for his wife with him making the same decision in her place, he clearly would not otherwise he would have already ordered Tyrion's arrest. Why didn't they? Ned was the Hand, it was in his power to order Tyrion's arrest as soon as Cat told him her suspicions. He did not. More importantly, he lied to the King about it. He clearly did not think Cat was in the right, and nor did the King himself. You mean when he lied. Why would be need to lie to the king if what Cat did was allowed? You are confusing a husband trying to protect his wife and take the blame for her mistake with him supporting the indecent. Robert did deal with it, he ordered the Imp released. Just because he dealt with it in a way that supports my argument and refutes yours does not mean he did not deal with it. Right, how does that make it legal? Hoster would probably rebel for his daughter as well, that does not make it legal. You are clearly missing the point here. We are talking about the legality of the situation, Cat was not in the right. Perhaps if she had got her father's permission to do so she would have a case, she did not. Lying about having her father's permission does not make it any more legal. Hoster was not there, this topic would not exist if Hoster was there as Robert would not bring up Cat. And? You are missing the point. The argument is not "Could Hoster have arrested Tyrion in the Riverlands" as he could. The same goes for "Could Ned have arrested Tyrion". Both men could, Cat could not, that is why it was an abduction. Trying to change the question completely misses the point. What if I retort "what if Tyrion is the King". We are talking about an event that happened, in the event that happened Cat was in the wrong, she broke the King's peace.
  13. Bernie Mac

    Fair Compensation for House Frey

    Eh? They were given the sunken Reynes castle. Unless they have the money to fix it, all they've done is acquired something of a white elephant. A castle that they'll never have the wealth to renovate. Roose's compensation was vengeance. Similar to Robb's desire against Joffrey.
  14. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    It is a fair assumption given the closeness of their relationship, Kevan's loyalty and his positon as his no2. Sure he could. It is well established that the Riverlands is the most fractured kingdom in terms of leadership. They have been divided in most wars, allies were a real possibility there. I never claimed his children. I was pretty clear on who I meant. Come on, is there any need for this type of cheap point scoring? That is not how feudalism works. Many second cousins had high profile marriages, think of Catherin Howard, she was from a daughter of a younger brother of Lord Howard and she married a King. Or think of Stannis' marriage, Selyse's father is a younger brother of Lord Florent. On Tywin's uncle Jason's side of the family we know that his granddaughter Lanna was married to Lord Jast while his son Stafford before the war had been negotiating a marriage with the only daughter of Lord Redwyne. Families that are prestigious and rich will be able to marry many members of their extended family to other high profile nobles. Check out the Tyrell family tree for another example. Victaria Tyrel is a distant cousin to Mace and yet she is married to Lord Bulwer.
  15. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    I never claimed she would be infertile then, I'm saying her window of heirs decreases. In GRRM's world the women marry young, they start procreating young. Having Margaery sit on the shelf for another 5/6/7 years is not in the Tyrells best interests and more importantly there was zero suggestion from either the Tyrells or Robert that such a marriage was on the cards. I get that you want to be right, but many of your arguments to keep the discussion alive are not things that were ever suggested in the books. How does it support that he might have known? His words and actions heavily indicate that he did not know. If Littlefinger told him why would Renly not tell Ned? Why would he not use that information to have Cersei arrested? Being unfaithful to the king is treason, that is enough to remove Cersei from power. Why does he not do this when he is telling Ned that Cersei is a threat to the both of them? Robert was on his deathbed, Renly scared of Cersei taking over, pleading with Ned to arrest Cersei and prevent her from taking power. It makes zero sense him not telling Ned in that positon. Is it? If he was told Cat slept with someone would he assume all his children were bastards? In the event of a death Ned would need to bring it to a Great Council, where Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, Edric, Stannis and Renly would all get to make their case to be king/Queen. There is no reason for Renly to remain silent. No, but he has a mind. He's not a simpleton. I'm sure you do, but for the last 7 years many people who are hardcore Stannis fans have been spamming the community on why Renly did know. 7 years takes its toll, I guarantee you might not be directly a Stannis fan but your positon on this argument will have been influenced by it. Your earlier citation of Reddit proves my point, Reddit is an echo chamber, popular opinions get upvoted, unpopular ones get downvoted. At no point in the text is that given the reason. Can you not see what you are doing? First you say that being put aside is not an option, when the text proves it is an option you then move the goal posts and give another reason (not supported by the text). Rather than have an unbiased view on the topic you are looking for reasons why it's wrong. No, her father told him to put his wife aside because he wanted his daughter to be Queen. But if you want yet other examples there are other examples with Daemon Targareyn (the Rogue Prince) and Duncan Targaryen Viserys soon heard of it. And whatever version of the tale was true, we do know that Daemon asked for Rhaenyra's hand, if only Viserys would set aside his marriage to Lady Rhea. Viserys refused --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It was true that Aegon had been a friend to the smallfolk, had practically grown up among them, but to countenance the marriage of the heir to the throne to a commoner of uncertain birth was beyond him. His Grace did all he could to have the marriage undone, demanding that Duncan put Jenny aside. Come on. Aegon IV did not care about consequences, he tried to start a war with Dorne and legitimized all his bastards. He simply did not need to remarry again as he frequently changed paramour. He didn't though. So claiming he 'definitely' was going to win is false, in the books we have he did not win. He had a very good chance of winning, there is a difference. Not sure your point here. Why would it be very hard to convince the Tyrells? What part of the books are you basing your knowledge of the Tyrells on? Did they sit on the Iron Throne? No, they attempted to usurp the throne and failed. During the war he had no problem putting aside the betrothal he had agreed upon, the betrothal that possibly almost a thousand Frey men lost their lives for.
  16. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    Cersei and Jaime's reaction to Kevan finding out in AFFC suggests that he (and Tywin did not know, that they were in the dark). Tyrion enjoys the fact that his father was wrong as when he meets him in the Riverlands Tywin tells him that neither the North or Vale are likely to get involved. He's right about the Vale, but wrong about the North. Had Tywin known the truth and known that the entire realm would be close to rebelling he'd not be raiding the Riverlands, there are potential allies there and none were available to him after he attacked. Had Tywin been expecting war his extended family would have married outside of the Westerlands rather than within it, he'd actually have more foster children at Casterly Rock and he's have hired a bigger and better sellsword company than the small and rather ineffectual Brave Companions. Tywin was blindsided by the events. Cersei would not be relying on Lancel Lannister to dispose of the King if Tywin did know, she'd have more competent people to rely on. No, they are, in principle, Baratheon soldiers. In practice they are Littlefinger's or who ever knows their right price. But Renly can't, not now that Ned, the Hand, has told him no. No, Robert or her father and brothers would be. Renly is already one of the most powerful men in the seven kingdoms, he can't get much more powerful and another Bride and her family does not leave him much room to grow. Renly was happy with Ned being Regent and Hand, power was not his motivation, removing Cersei was. Not really. Renly was pretty much ruling the kingdom while Robert was away. He's not going to improve his positon unless Robert makes him Hand, which seemed unlikely given his loyalty and love of Ned. Renly's problem is not relevancy, he's loved by the nobles and commons alike, one of the most powerful Lords in the realm and has a highly influential seat on the Small Council. His problem is Cersei. Not her children, just Cersei. He's aware that she is a threat to him. He still gains little. Whether it is the Tyrells or some other family they still take over that vacuum. But once again, it is Cersei he has issue with. Not her House, not her children but Cersei. That is not true. Renly is 21. Edmure is much older, Stannis was 23 when he married, Brandon was not due to marry till 21, same with Robert. Men can marry when they want, there is less of a rush. There was nothing unusual with Renly not being married in AGOT. He does though. Lord Renly took a step back, taut as a bowstring. "Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late … for both of us." "Then we should pray that Robert does not die." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "On the night of Robert's death, I offered your husband a hundred swords and urged him to take Joffrey into his power. Had he listened, he would be regent today, and there would have been no need for me to claim the throne." "Ned refused you." She did not have to be told. "He had sworn to protect Robert's children," Renly said. "I lacked the strength to act alone, so when Lord Eddard turned me away, I had no choice but to flee. Had I stayed, I knew the queen would see to it that I did not long outlive my brother." Renly was in fear of his life. From his POV Ned was rejecting the idea of going against Cersei and yet he was arrested, he could only presume that the same would happen to him or worse his plot be tortured out of Ned and Ned used against him.
  17. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    He didn't, but it was something he was advised to do meaning it is a possibility. His small council, at their wits' ends, hoped it was simply some dislike of her that moved him, and thus they urged him to put her aside to take another wife. But he would not hear of it. So it is not some impossible action for a king to set aside his wife. Yes, that is a second wife, but putting one of the wives aside was an option When it became known, the two half-brothers quarreled bitterly. Nor was His Grace alone in his wroth. Manfred Hightower, father of Lady Ceryse, made protest to the king, demanding that Lady Alys be put aside. Many queens have been under the threat of being put aside. That is never claimed. He simply did not care. Naerys wanted to be put aside, Aegon IV did not. When Prince Daeron was born on the last day of 153 AC, Grand Maester Alford warned that another pregnancy might kill her. Naerys was said to address her brother thus: "I have done my duty by you, and given you an heir. I beg you, let us live henceforth as brother and sister." We are told that Aegon replied: "That is what we are doing." Aegon continued to insist his sister perform her wifely duties for the rest of her life. His paramours lived at court with him, he did not care about marrying them. I think you are. The chances of both were pretty much the same. Renly did not take the throne, the only person to successfully usurp the Throne was Robert Baratheon. Him being the only person to successfully put aside his wife is just as likely. Becoming King is harder to do in principle than putting aside a wife and taking another. Though we are getting away from the real point, the success of failure of said plan does not mean there was no plan. There clearly was, Renly mentions it, Cersei is paranoid about it and Varys discovers it in the letters from Renly to the Tyrells in Highgarden. There was a plan to have Cersei put aside, that is indisputable. Whether that plan would have succeeded is another topic entirely. That was a gamble Renly was willing to take if it meant removing Cersei from power. Though Tywin does not hold his 'Baratheon' grandchildren, the King does. They are more likely to side with their father than their grandfather, just as Henry VIII's daughters ultimately sided with their father than their mother's families. This is a poor argument. When Robert usurped the Throne from the still living Viserys and Daenarys did the realm break down with second and third cousins doing the same for Lordships? No, of course not, isolated incidents, even by kings, don't become the norm. But Robb clearly did think he could do that. Did the Northern and Riverland Lords who called Robb king do the same?
  18. Bernie Mac

    Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

    In the show it may be dead, still unclear, but not in the books. Yeah, that is a huge exaggeration. Certainly disliked, but there is no danger of them being put under siege. They broke a custom and will likely have some members punished, but the idea of the realm all going to war over it is an over the top wet dream by some Stark fans. In his own mind he may be. Tyrion wants Casterly Rock yet continues to piss off his father with his very public whoring and drinking, continues to piss off his sister, the Queen, and continues to piss off his nephew, the heir/King of the throne. There are three people Tyrion needs to impress to get the Rock, he sours his relations with all three. Littlefinger likely dislikes all three as well, but he knows to not let them know that.
  19. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    That is not the implication at all. Cersei is worried about being put aside, if Robert knew the truth she'd have no head, she'd not be put aside she be executed. The language is very deliberate. Unless you are arguing that GRRM does not know the meaning of the word, which I don't think you are, then you have to accept that GRRM knew what he was writing. She'd also not be concerned with who her replacement was because she'd be dead, her children would be dead. Who replaces a dead Queen is inconsequential.
  20. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    You've answered it in your own post, there was a six year age difference. Men being older than their wives was not a problem, but women being older decreased the chances of offspring. For women in the middle ages there was a window for birth, at a certain age it became a lot trickier and life threatening, both for the mother and unborn baby. I think GRRM has a slight misconception about the age and gone slightly overboard with this but in his world noble women are all marrying and trying for children before they hit 20. That is not evidence that he knew. The Florents, being nobles, were able to pressure Robert into taking responsibility of the bastard they had with one of their own and forced him to acknowledge Edric. Robert had him fostered at Storm's End, Renly, not even being a teenager when Edric was born, did not choose this. This is not evidence that Renly knew. Jon Arryn himself was in the dark till Stannis told him, so at one point there was at least three people who did not know, Renly, Jon and Barristan. Both Varys and Littlefinger have their own spy networks, Renly does not. Pycelle may have been able to deduce from Jon Arryn's investigation as he was using the Maester's library for research. What reasons does he have for not telling Ned? He is telling Ned that Cersei will end the two of them if she gains power. Why would he withhold the Lannister affair? Why would he withhold her part in Jon Arryn's death? He can easily frame it so that Cersei is guilty and her children are not, this still gets Cersei arrested. He does not. Yeah, you are thinking of a modern day mindset. The Howards were the most powerful family during Henry VIII's reign In both 1538 and 1546 her father petitioned[1] for her to be married to Thomas Seymour. The King gave his approval for the match, but her brother, Henry, Earl of Surrey, objected strongly, as did the Duchess herself; and the marriage did not take place. Surrey then suggested that the Duchess should seduce the aged King, her father-in-law, and become his mistress, to "wield as much influence on him as Madame d'Etampes doth about the French King". Women were constantly used as pawns, that does not mean their fathers and brothers did not love them, they never really considered that women would be punished for tempting men and in most cases they were not. Noble sons were supposed to fight and lead battles, noble daughters were supposed to be graceful and charming to the opposite sex. And yet Stannis does not assume Renly knows the truth. Cat, Stannis, Brienne and many other nobles are present when Renly reveals his plan, while at the same time laughing at Stannis' story of incest. None of them see that as a contradiction. Why is it some readers think it is obvious when the characters who inhabit this world, know far more about what is and is not possible don't come to the same conclusion? Neither. This debate has nothing to do with making Renly a better person, he was still trying to usurp the Throne. This is the problem, most people who argue that Renly did know are not doing so because they like the character, most people who argue that he did know tend to be Stannis fans and/or people who dislike Renly for not supporting the rightful king. One side is more biased towards a character than the other and its not the side that think Renly was in the dark. Renly's a Usurper either way.
  21. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    Robert is only in his 30's. There is potentially decades to pacify the heir of the Throne as well as insulate themselves with more power and titles. At the end of the day Joffrey's wrath would be focused on his father, the man who put his wife aside, rather than his new step mother and her family. An end to Cersei's influence and presence at Court would see the Tyrells be able to try to get on his good side. It is not like they'd be expecting Margaery to be Queen/Paramour for a short amount of time, but a sustained period.
  22. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    He'd also be overjoyed with his daughter as Queen and his grandchildren as Princes and Princess's. Obviously every Lord wants their grandchild to be king, but they'd also be hugely ecstatic to have a royal wife. Look at Walder Frey, hundreds of heirs and Houses are still supplying daughters for him to marry. Being Robert's second wife would be a huge boon for any House. During the reign of Aegon IV this was hugely common, from the Brackens and Blackwoods competing for paramour status to other Lords literally pimping their daughters out for a night for a Dragon Egg. A King's favour is something most Lords desire, with favour along comes titles, riches and lands to some. That is a possibility. But that has never stopped Lords doing just that in both the real middle ages and in Westeros. They don't think longterm, they think of accumulating power and influence as quickly as possible. The wives of Henry VIII tried, and did, get along with his other children. As did Daeron II with his step siblings and his father's paramours. The expectation of revenge is simply not there in these situations.
  23. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    Why is that an issue? This forum has tens of thousands of unanswered questions on characters motives, origins, family connections, past actions. Ran probably does not want to annoy a friend with a constant barrage of questions. Or if he does, said friend may not want everything revealed and prefer a level of mystique around the series so fans can carry on discussing such topics.
  24. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    Cersei believes he could, she says as much in the conversation Bran overhears before he is pushed. Being put aside for another Lyanna was a real threat to Cersei. So it is clear he could do it. Would he? Probably not, he was not a romantic like Henry VIII who married for love and also needed heirs, Robert may look like him in appearance and past times but Robert had no issue sleeping with whores and moved on very quickly. He also barely cared about the children, both legitimate and illegitimate, that he did have. Cersei was being paranoid but it was a possibility. Varys reads the letters sent back and forth to Highgarden and knew of the plan for Margaery to seduce the king into bed and then make him marry her, in the same paragraph he calls Ned the real danger because he is close to finding out the truth.
  25. Bernie Mac

    Fair Compensation for House Frey

    No, he probably would not. Had he been in the Inn and had a chance to have his say he would have told Cat to be quiet. Like he did Brandon when the 'gallant fool' rode off to Kings Landing. Hoster would have known better than to start a war over something so idiotic given that Tyrion was heading to Kings Landing. You are confusing Cat's husband or father supporting her idiocy with them actually making the same choice themselves. They would not. Robert is aware of this. Cat never had any authority to do what she did.
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