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Bernie Mac

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Everything posted by Bernie Mac

  1. Bernie Mac

    Fair Compensation for House Frey

    But she didn't. She never asked his permission, we know that for a fact. Do you think Hoster, if asked, would have said yes? Come on, Hoster's not an idiot. Cat herself would not have done it if she had time to think about the consequences of kidnapping the King's brother-in-law and the son of the most powerful Lord in the Realm. The reader is not expected to see Cat's decision as right, it was wrong. The king points that out, Ned's lie points that out and the Jeor Mormont's, ally of the Starks, reaction all points this out. There is not a single source in the books that supports Cat's decision. Tyrion was not a fugitive, he was heading to Kings Landing. Her actions were bizarre. Ned did not back her play. He lied to the King and said he ordered it, that is not backing her play. That is taking the blame for his wife's obvious mistake. If Ned thought she was in the right he would not have needed to lie. If he thought she right he would have ordered the Imp's arrest and Cat would never be in that positon to begin with. lol no it does not. Have you learnt nothing from the series? Those men were peasants and she was using her name and her connections to their lords to make them do her bidding. They were trusting that she was right, them obeying her is not evidence that she was right. It is the very definition of being between a rock and a hard place. Yes, they know their place in the hierarchy. The smallfolk are constantly fucked over by the nobility, when a Lord decides to break the law and rebel his vassals have little choice, its either break the law and anger their king or refuse and have the Lord punish them. Hoster Goodbrook burned down an entire village, killing every inhabitant, who refused to do as he said when he rebelled against the Crown. Obviously the smallfolk obey.
  2. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    Hardly Traitor, she thought. Turncloak. She wondered how much Mace Tyrell had given him. "You would abandon your king when he needs you most," she told him. "You would abandon Tommen." "Tommen has his mother." Ser Kevan's green eyes met her own, unblinking. A last drop of wine trembled wet and red beneath his chin, and finally fell. "Aye," he added softly, after a pause, "and his father too, I think." Kevan reveals he knows the truth. There is no other way to take that final remark. Which Jaime pretty much confirms when he goes to confront Kevan about it "Your sister knows my terms. They have not changed. Tell her that, the next time you are in her bedchamber." Ser Kevan put his heels into his courser and galloped ahead, putting an abrupt end to their conversation. Jaime let him go, his missing sword hand twitching. He had hoped against hope that Cersei had somehow misunderstood, but plainly that was wrong. He knows about the two of us. About Tommen and Myrcella. And Cersei knows he knows. Ser Kevan was a Lannister of Casterly Rock. He could not believe that she would ever do him harm, but . . . I was wrong about Tyrion, why not about Cersei?
  3. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    His words suggest he did not know. His actions make it clear that he did not know. If he knew, when he was pleading with Ned to arrest the Queen, who he believed wanted him dead. he'd have told Ned there and then. He did not. He'd not need a Lyanna alternative to remove Cersei from power if he knew the truth, Robert would execute her. His family held most of the power at court, his brother King, his other brother Master of Ships, he Master of Law and his nephew the heir of the Throne. The Barathons held the power. But yeah, his actions are not actually that unusual. Check the French and English courts of the late middle ages, many powerful nobles were trying to arrange new wives/paramours for the monarch so they could hold more power than the Queen's faction. How was he prepared? He panicked when Robert was on his deathbed, wanted Ned to arrest the Queen, take charge of Joffrey and rule the kingdom. When Ned refused he fled the city. This was the actions of someone who knew what was happening beyond the dangers of Cersei being queen meant for him.
  4. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    No, Cersei is convinced he knows the truth in AFFC, whereas she did not think he knew before despite the rumours. "Speak softly." Her voice sounded strange . . . breathless, almost frightened. "Jaime, Kevan has refused me. He will not serve as Hand, he . . . he knows about us. He said as much." "Refused?" That surprised him. "How could he know? He will have read what Stannis wrote, but there is no . . ." "Tyrion knew," she reminded him. "Who can say what tales that vile dwarf may have told, or to whom? Uncle Kevan is the least of it. The High Septon . . . Tyrion raised him to the crown, when the fat one died. He may know as well." We know that Lance had been busy confessing his sins and that his father had been a constant at his side during his illness. "When it seemed that I might die, my father brought the High Septon to pray for me. He is a good man." Her cousin's eyes were wet and shiny, a child's eyes in an old man's face. "He says the Mother spared me for some holy purpose, so I might atone for my sins." Lance confesses to Jaime, confessed to the High Septon I'm guessing he did the same with his father and Kevan was able to deduce the rest. I always thought that was pretty obvious from the chain of events, Kevan's attitude towards the twins changes completely in AFFC.
  5. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    Kevan only finds out later, likely after his son came clean to him about what he had been doing in Kings Landing.
  6. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    Well yeah, I don't think the plan was going to succeed. But they had a plan to remove Cersei either as Queen or her influence over Robert by making another Queen/Paramour to rival her power at court.
  7. Bernie Mac

    Fair Compensation for House Frey

    There are laws during peace time, not so much when there is a civil war and parts of the realm are in open rebellion. Expecting a Crown you have rebelled against to punish people for fighting against you is odd. Well yeah, this is pretty frequent right? Had Robb been victorious I doubt there would have been any blowback on the Northern soldiers raping, pillaging and sacking settlements in the Riverlands. His men are likely given amnesty for most of the crap they were doing. Laws tend to be ignored during wars. The Battle at the Twins will have no blowback, the Red Wedding inside may well do, breaking customs held dear by Religious institutions may see blowback whether the current Government likes it or not.
  8. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    Not that weird. Renly wanted Cersei replaced, he was planning on having Margaery seduce the king then have Cersei put aside. He'd not need a Lyanna clone if he knew the truth. Barristan and Renly did not know. It was Stannis who told Jon Arryn, not Littlefinger. We know how Varys knew, he has the best network of spies in the realm. We don't know when Littlefinger found out, it may have been before or after Stannis.
  9. Bernie Mac

    Fair Compensation for House Frey

    Which in itself is meaningless. She does not have the King's permission, she does not even have their Lord's permission. She is acting without any authority. That is what people are arguing here, Cat's actual authority. She had none. That is why the King calls it an abduction rather than an arrest That is why Ned feels the need to lie to the king about the situation Lord and landed knights only have power in their own lands, they don't have power outside of them. Not to be rude, but where do you get your information from? No it was not. Robert is in Kings Landing, which is closer to the Inn than the Eyrie is, and clearly less dangerous as well. eh? What are you going on about now? No idea what nonsense you are trying to start now. Cat abducted Tyrion in the Riverlands. The powers of the Lord of the Vale do not extend to the Riverlands. Littlefinger is in Kings Landing, Robert is in Kings Landing, Cat is closer to Kings Landing than she is the Eyrie. lol don't get irate to me because you've made a flawed argument. Cat was just in Kings Landing, her husband is still in Kings Landing. Why was this evidence not presented to the King? Why is Ned lying to the King and stating that he ordered Cat to arrest Tyrion? So your saying the evidence was not trustworthy? Fair enough. Calm down dude. I'm just asking why you think Ned felt the need to lie if Cat's actions were legal? eh? You are moving the goalposts now. You claimed Stannis was the "living embodiment of duty" when clearly that is not the case, he failed his duty to his King. Can you quote Stannis about that? Stannis never makes no such claim and he did not run, he was still in Kings Landing for some time after Jon Arryn's funeral. Cersei was not even in the city when Jon died and Robert left Kings Landing before Stannis did. Stannis said nothing. Failed in his duty. Though that is hardly the point, there are ravens, he could have informed the new Hand about his suspicions and the safety of the king, he could have informed Robert via raven or messenger from Dragonstone. He could have informed his younger brother who did not like or trust the Lannisters. Stannis did nothing, he failed in his duty. Yes. Or Ned at Wintefell, or Renly at Storm's End, or send a messenger directly to the King. There was many ways that Stannis could have tried warning the King, some, maybe all may have failed but he attempted nothing. He abandoned his duty. You making excuses for him will never change that.
  10. Bernie Mac

    Fair Compensation for House Frey

    He didn't keep silent? When did he tell Robert that he believed he was being cuckolded and that the Lannisters had killed Jon Arryn? My copy of the books are missing those parts.
  11. Bernie Mac

    Fair Compensation for House Frey

    eh? No, they did not. Cat asked them and they complied. If the Mountain claimed to be working on the authority of Robert, without ever getting it, would that make his actions legal? Why does Ned lie? If what Cat is doing is legal why does he feel the need to lie? In the North, she has no authority in the Riverlands. Fire and Blood has a similar situation, Cregan Stark needs to made Hand before he can sit in judgement of the likes of Lord Velaryon as his Lordship only grants him powers in the North, they don't extend outside of his lands. Explain why. She did not have the authority from Robert. Simply claiming the King gave you the authority does not make something legal. The king actually has to grant that person authority to act in their name. Why do you think Ned lies to Robert about this? How is that evidence that Tyron did it? eh? lol it's spelt moron. People in glass houses... So you think Ned lied for fun? There was no reason for it?
  12. Bernie Mac

    Fair Compensation for House Frey

    He didn't refuse, he called his banners and by the time he and Mallister could move Tully was defeated and Tywin the Hand of the King. Walder had done as the Tully's requested, he had called his banners. It is hardly his fault that he is further away than any other Riverlord and has the largest army to raise. "I called my swords, yes I did, here they are, you saw them on the walls. It was my intent to march as soon as all my strength was assembled. Well, to send my sons. I am well past marching myself, Lady Catelyn." He looked around for likely confirmation and pointed to a tall, stooped man of fifty years. "Tell her, Jared. Tell her that was my intent." "It was, my lady," said Ser Jared Frey, one of his sons by his second wife. "On my honor." "Is it my fault that your fool brother lost his battle before we could march?" Sadly once Tywin had been made Hand things are far more complicated. It does not seem like that at all. No King would accept that. We have seen countless civil wars where random lords have chosen the king over their Overlord, not once in the series is it suggested, never mind claimed, that one oath is more important than the other. Lords who treat their vassals well can expect loyalty when they rebel. Hoster did not not get along with his most powerful Vassal, that is on Hoster. You do know why that is right? The Tully's held out longer than their vassals, many of the Riverlords were suing for peace in ASOS, the Tully's carried on rebelling for almost a year after many of their lords had gave up. You do know why that is right? Robert was not in a positon to punish either realm without them rebelling. This is simply common sense. Robert was in a positon to punish one, he was not in a positon to punish the Reach Lords with out rebellion. Robert needed to reward his supporters, none of his supporters were from the Reach or Dorne. eh? That is clearly not the case. He knew of a plot against his brother the king and stayed silent. That guy only cares about duties when it benefits him.
  13. Bernie Mac

    Fair Compensation for House Frey

    Lets actually fully quote the King "Keep the king's peace, you say. Is this how you keep my peace, Ned? Seven men are dead . . . " "Eight," the queen corrected. "Tregar died this morning, of the blow Lord Stark gave him." "Abductions on the kingsroad and drunken slaughter in my streets," the king said. "I will not have it, Ned." The King does not think it was a lawful arrest, he says it was an abduction. And it should be noted that even before Robert calls it an abduction Ned has already lied about the incidenct "I take it you know what Catelyn has done?" "I do." Ned took a small swallow of wine. "My lady wife is blameless, Your Grace. All she did she did at my command." "I am not pleased, Ned," Robert grumbled. These are not the actions of someone who believes his wife was carrying out the letter of the law. These are the actions and words of a good man trying to protect his wife for screwing up He doesn't? Can you quote him on this? If Cat was in the right why does Ned pre-emptively lie about the situation? These are not the actions of the lawful. Tyrion does not think for one moment he was lawfully arrested All his life Tyrion had prided himself on his cunning, the only gift the gods had seen fit to give him, and yet this seven-times-damned she-wolf Catelyn Stark had outwitted him at every turn. The knowledge was more galling than the bare fact of his abduction. And even at the Wall they don't think Cat was legally in the right The Old Bear shrugged. "A boy king … I imagine he'll listen to his mother. A pity the dwarf isn't with them. He's the lad's uncle, and he saw our need when he visited us. It was a bad thing, your lady mother taking him captive—" No one in the series, not the King, not Tyrion not Jorah, close ally of the Starks or even Ned himself think that Cat was in the right. lol she just arrested the King's brother-in-law on the spur of the moment. She was not planning on doing it she overreacted and realized she fucked up a short time later. Cat is not a Lord, she is the wife of a Lord. She has no authority in the Riverlands, if she had arrested Tyrion in the North, where she has been made Castellan, she could. Furthermore she has no evidence that a crime has actually been committed. No evidence that Tyrion was responsible for this possible crime. Tarly has been granted authority by the King to do so. When did Robert or Ned grant Cat the same authority? No, they did so on behalf of Cat.
  14. Bernie Mac

    Fair Compensation for House Frey

    Should Hoster have been hung for being an oathbreaker as well? Or is him breaking his oaths to the Targs for a marriage alliance acceptable to you? When did Ned approve of this arrest? He is blindsided by the news of it and then lies to Robert about it saying he told his wife to do it. If Cat was in the right why would Ned lie? No, Tyrion was not arrested by the Hand's authority. Have you actually read the chapter Tyrion is arrested because it does not seem that you have. Ned's name is not mentioned once. That is true. Same for Robb when he hears his father was arrested by the Crown. The nobles in the series tend overeact when they feel their family have been wrongly arrested or abducted against the wishes of the king. Meh. Walder and Mallister did the right thing. Had more Riverlords been more patient their lands would not have been overran. That is what an oath is, it is some words. By the end of ASOS most of the Riverlords have sworn new oaths to Tommen. People on this forum often argue that these oaths are meaningless, that they are just words. Lords in both the real middle ages and GRRM's version often ignored their oaths.
  15. Bernie Mac

    Fair Compensation for House Frey

    Wives of Lords do not. If you can name another incidence in the series of this happening Id' love to read it. The King states that Cat was in the wrong, he is the law. Ned feels the need to lie about his wife, clearly Ned did not think she was in the right or honourable Ned would never have lied to his King. Had Cat been in the North she may have been in the right, but she was not, she was outside of her husband's jurisdiction. She abducted the King's brother-in-law and told no one where she was going, what she was going to do with him thus creating an international incident. She fucked up. Had she brought Tyrion to her father or to Kings Landing she'd have a case, instead she imprisoned someone she had no right to imprison. I have no idea why you are bringing this up, she never does that. We have the scene, at no point does she arrest Tyrion in her husband's name. Ned lied about that. The fact that Ned felt the need to lie about this should make it pretty obvious that Cat was in the wrong. The usually sensible and intelligent Cat was put on the spot and acted irrationally. This was not a planned move, and had Tyrion not noticed her nothing likely would have happened. She overreacted to being spotted thousands of miles from where she was meant to be and made sure the entire realm knew she was not in the North (something she was trying to keep a secret). Why is that not clear to King Robert or Ned, the Hand? You say its clear that this is how the system works, any other examples of this?
  16. Bernie Mac

    Fair Compensation for House Frey

    It was not done on behalf of the state. Cat was in the wrong, there are two reasons we know she was in the wrong Ned feels the need to lie about the situation, falsely claiming that he ordered his wife to do that. Why is honourable Ned lying if Cat had the authority to arrest someone in the Riverlands? The King himself states it was an abduction, Cat, in his words, broke the King's peace. Suspects wanted for murder get arrested by the police, Citizens don't abduct them and take them to their sisters without alerting the proper authorities. Cat made a mistake.
  17. Bernie Mac

    Riverlands house and military

    As usual man I have no idea what junction you are following. You are either a genius and I can't get on your level or a master contrarian, either way I'm in awe. The Qorgyles had an amount of land they were given the land the Whents had was much smaller as on various times the Hanrrnahlal lands was awarded to a new Lord those lands were reduced____ the excess fat given to others by the Crown.
  18. Bernie Mac

    Riverlands house and military

    I'd guess its more of a white elephant. The Harrenhal lands of Qorgyle are not the lands of House Whent. Quite a few times as the House changed hands it was stripped of its lands by the Crown meaning less income for the Lord of Harrenhal. So a rich noble could take it, like Littlefinger, but restoring and maintaining it to its former glory is probably not sustainable on the lands that Harrenhal rules.
  19. Bernie Mac

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    The last two books have not been published yet, it is far too early to call reading them a waste of time. I personally see Bran becoming King as unrealistic in the setting that GRRM has established in the previous five books and all the accompanying material but I don't know how it happens (or even if it does).
  20. Bernie Mac

    Frey branch

    Not really given OP is asking about other Frey branches, not other Frey Lords. He cites the Arryns as an example and there is no other Lord Arryn but there are other branches of the House.
  21. Bernie Mac

    Frey branch

    Sure they can. They can't make Lords, but they can make knightly Houses. "My bannermen include a dozen petty lords and a hundred landed knights." - Wyman Manderly Walder, as the most powerful vassal Lord in the Riverlands, is going to have a similar amount of vassals under him, the vast majority of which will have been made by the Freys. All Lords in the series have vassals underneath them that control smaller parts of their lands and that were made by them. Some of those vassals will be younger members of the family rewarded by the Lord at the time. Though it should be noted that a title does not make a branch. The Arryns of Gulltown are a separate branch that has no official title and have existed for over two centuries. They've stayed notable due to their wealth rather than status. Every son of Walder is the originator of their own branch while still being part of Walder's branch. Once he dies then they all become independent branches, each son the head senior member of their branch. I think you are confusing land and titles with branches here. The Tully's would likely not care two figs if Walder split his land and divided it between his sons. All those 'new' Frey Houses would still be vassals of the Tullys. If Walder made all his sons landed knights on Frey property then the Tully's could not do anything about it, nor would they be too bothered, as it would still be Lord Paramount (Tully) → Lord (Frey) → Vassal of Lord (Frey Branches)
  22. Bernie Mac

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    I don't think Isaac is lying, I don' think the producers are lying. I think it may be possible that the Bran becoming King was part of the original outline of the book series, the same outline that had Jaime be king at some point. We really have no idea if that information came from the 2006 meetings between them and GRRM or a much later date or if it set in stone. I don't think its true that they disliked his storyline, they just did not know what to do with it. It is possible that Bran's storyline is much, much bigger in the TWOW, with its own large cast of characters and events separate from the show and the producers did not have the time or budget to properly film it. Unless Bran starts manipulating his way to become King I'm not sure how a random person being named in a Grand Council meeting in the (I'm guessing last or penultimate chapter) of a seven series saga is that important to the series as whole. The way the show framed it anyone at the Council meeting could have been picked and it would have made as much sense as Bran. Bran being picked or not being picked changes nothing from every minute of the show before that moment. The term Endgame is about everything that came before led to this moment, that is not the case of Bran becoming King, it was entirely inconsequential.
  23. Bernie Mac

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    No food will certainly cut down on the page count.
  24. Bernie Mac

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    Maybe we will be getting that 5 year gap at some point in the next two books. It would certainly explain the delay.
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