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Bernie Mac

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Everything posted by Bernie Mac

  1. Bernie Mac

    The Sack of Darry

    Sorry, what is your point? Do you disagree with the my point that the Northern soldiers were pillaging from the Riverland smallfolk?
  2. Bernie Mac

    The Sack of Darry

    Why would you? Cat is the first POV we hear about the Riverlands and she is not going to be told that, the Riverlords who themselves have been burning their own fields to starve the Lannisters are not going to be reporting Northern atrocities to Cat. Arya is told that but she only makes her move away from Harrenhal after the Blackwater and Brienne hears about the monstrosities of the Wolves and Lions in AFFC. Which character were you expecting to hear this from? "Would I tell you if I did?" The man spat. "Likely it were wolves' work, or maybe lions, what's the difference? The wife and I found them dead. The way we see it, the place is ours now." - A Storm of Swords - Jaime II This, according to the timeline document, happens less than three weeks after the battle of Blackwater. Already Wolves are mentioned in the same breath as Lions. That does not suggest that the smallfolk were particularly fond of them. The books are full of lions and wolves being a blight on the smallfolk of the Riverlands https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=lions+and+wolves&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=acok&scope[]=asos&scope[]=affc It is naïve to think that it is a recent development, an army has to eat and the monologue of the broken man explains exactly how armies operate during a war. "If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they're fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it's just a short step to carrying off their daughters too. And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They don't know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they're fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground. When Robb marched South he had no idea what he was doing, he did not know there was going to be a year long war, he did not even have the supplies to stay at Moat Cailin. Roose's army would need to feed themselves, they'd be pillaging from the smallfolk. Lem glowered. "Your lion friends ride into some village, take all the food and every coin they find, and call it foraging. The wolves as well, so why not us? No one robbed you, dog. You just been good and foraged." Who would you hear it from? The reason we hear of the atrocities in the Riverlands is Jaime, Brienne and Arya are all POV characters interacting with the smallfolk in the Riverlands who tell the POV/reader of the atrocities in the region, committed by both Lions and Wolves. There is no one in the Westerlands doing the same. What we do know is that Robb is doing what Tywin did to the Riverlands Without siege engines there was no way to storm Casterly Rock, so the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they'd inflicted on the riverlands. Robb was doing the same, we just don't have a POV characters witnessing it. The thousands of cattle stoles will have had smallfolk protectors, men and women trying to defend their livelihoods and being killed in the process. if the Northern men had no problem raping smallfolk in the Riverlands it stands to reason they were doing the same to the smallfolk in the West. One of the annoying things about the fandom is how some have assumed there is good and bad and only the bad guys act badly during war, both sides do. The smallfolk are screwed over by all sides.
  3. Bernie Mac

    Why did Stannis marry Selyse Florent?

    2,000 of which is foot. There is a huge difference between a foot soldier and a knight. The Karstarks can field more men, but I'd take the Florent army against the Karstark army in a battle. The Florents are far richer, influential and prestigious than the Karstarks. Why would Robert and Jon have Stannis marry a Karstark, a region they are not worried about rebelling? Did they have women available at the time? Were they willing to make a marriage alliance to the Baratheons at that time? Did Robert and Jon Arryn perhaps think that a Florent option would be better than a Hightower considering Mace was married to a Hightower and could expect their support if he rebelled?
  4. Bernie Mac

    The Sack of Darry

    That would be true in the earlier phase of the war. Robb's foot was around 18k, they did not have the supplies to last at Moat Cailin so they'd only have one means of feeding themselves in the Riverlands, by taking from the local populace. This is just what happens in war, it is brutal for the smallfolk.
  5. Bernie Mac

    Why did Stannis marry Selyse Florent?

    She is not pretty now. We have no idea what she looked like almost a decade ago when she married Stannis. Plus, appearance is not really that high on list of reasons why nobles marry. 11 years of being married to Stannis might do that to anyone. eh? Davos is not his friend, he's his vassal who seems to worship him. I think we can all get along with people like that. His 'actual care of the realm' is entirely meaningless a decade ago when they married. And Selyse seems to be supportive of her husbands quest to save the realm. If anything this makes them a perfect fit, most wives with common sense may have tried to talk him out of it. At the time of the Wedding she may have just been another granddaughter of the current Lord Florent. Stannis did not marry her to inherit Brightwater Keep, so her place in the succession line is immaterial. Nobody thinks Roslin Frey is the worst marriage for Edmure amongst the Frey women despite the fact that she comes behind many 'sisters', nieces and grand nieces in the succession line. We have no idea who Ryam was married to, it may well be that Selyse had the best pedigree out of all the Florent women who were available to marry. Ryam himself may have been far more noteworthy than his brothers while he lived. Stannis had a Florent Castellan on Dragonstone, a Florent Hand and a Florent Admiral. Stannis points out in the aftermath of the Blackwater that the majority of his men are Florents. The marriage was not arranged so Stannis could have the military power to conquer the throne from Robert's children.
  6. Bernie Mac

    The Sack of Darry

    Fire and Blood. In the aftermath of the Dance of the Dragons it is pointed out that the Tully's were less powerful than a number of their vassals such as the Brackens, Blackwoods, Vances and Freys in terms of military strength and land. It is possible that has changed in the last century, but I'm not sure how given the Blackwoods and Brackens may have grown even more powerful in that time given their closeness to the royal family during the reigns of Aegon IV, Aerys I and Aegon V. I'd also imagine that the Freys have grown more powerful as time has gone on rather than weaker.
  7. Bernie Mac

    The Sack of Darry

    Not all of it. "Pardoned?" The old man laughed. "For what? Sitting on his arse in his bloody castle? He sent men off to Riverrun to fight but never went himself. Lions sacked his town, then wolves, then sellswords, and his lordship just sat safe behind his walls. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Pardoned?" The old man laughed. "For what? Sitting on his arse in his bloody castle? He sent men off to Riverrun to fight but never went himself. Lions sacked his town, then wolves, then sellswords, and his lordship just sat safe behind his walls. There are two armies in the Riverlands, both are raping and pillaging from the local populace and the Brotherhood are also doing the same "Be wary, woman. The next men you meet may not be as honest as my lads. The Hound has crossed the Trident with a hundred outlaws, and it's said they're raping every wench they come upon and cutting off their teats for trophies." Tywin's invasion certainly started the war in the Riverlands, but Lions and Wolves alike are doing as they please.
  8. Bernie Mac

    Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

    He may have even improved on it. They were powerful in Dance of the Dragons and the Dunk & Egg books, but there is no indication that they were the most powerful vassal House in the Riverlands at that point. Walder has ruled for at least half a century, he was Lord when Tywin was 10, he may have done more than maintained the status quo, which itself is not easy, many Houses fall in power regardless of their positon, but actually made them the power they are in the current series. He sanctioned it, but we are told that the organization was down to Roose and Lothar. But he himself has done far, far more than the Red Wedding. Sure, and the author made a decision to give Merret Frey a POV chapter and have him explain to the readers some of the positives about Walder Frey's character. He's multi dimensional, he's not just the perpetrator of the Red Wedding. As Patriarch's go he is one of the best in Westeros going by that chapter. But the reader learns other things about him and your post not only ignores them but contradicts them. I'm just pointing that out. Nowhere in the books does it claim or suggest that he's a hedonist, that seems to be your own head cannon not supported in the books. This is what tends to happen in fiction, protagonists are imagined to have no redeeming features. What did he do to his own daughter? And how does showing remorse change your earlier claim that he is a hedonist? That he does not care about his family? You said a lot of things that are not backed up by the books or actually contradicted them. Few are claiming that Walder was right (anger justified, yes, but he took it too far) in what he did at the Red Wedding, most of us are on the same page about that, but that is one incident in his life, your post was about his entire life. How is that a bad thing for him or his people? I didn't realize how much in favour some are for war in this fandom. It makes him many things, cunning being one of them, but also intelligent. How is it a trick? Hoster did the same in Robert's Rebellion. He ignored his lord and stayed neutral till his price was met, Cregan did the same during the Dance, demanding a payment to pick a side and still only sending a token force while he arrived when the war was over. House Tully during that conflict stayed neutral despite their promise to the late King. Plenty of powerful Lords get away with it. It is not about luck it is about understanding your own positon. He did not. So your claim that he only joins the winning side is kind of contradicted by this. He joined the rebels at a time when no one knew that the Reach and Stormlands would rebel. He was not eager, Cat had to convince him and she did so by using his pride, not his need for material gain. Sure. Why is that bad? He's only following in the footsteps of Hoster, Cregan Stark and many others. Where is your evidence that he is a hedonist? Please provide it. Again, any evidence of him actually being a hedonist. To an extent they do. We get to see the Frey's reaction at Riverrun, Harrnenhal and with Robb to Robb's betrayal, they all feel betrayed. Yup. This is not that uncommon. The Baratheon brothers can barely stand each other, the Tully brothers were not speaking, the Corbray brothers dislike each other, one of the Hunter sons murdered his father and his planning on doing the same to his brother. Merret should be scared of his positon, he is useless and a great-nephew should not be responsible for caring for him. The Starks are not that different. There are other Starks, second cousins to Ned, they do not reside at Wintefell. Robb's has cousins in the Vale, he does not even know their names. Many Houses are going to be like this, Edwyn or Black Walder are not going to feel the need to look after other branches of their family who are useless. Not really. There is ambition and distrust in most families, but the Freys are also pretty loyal to each other, we see the Frey's reaction to the missing Frey's at White Harbor and the death of young Walder at Wintefell. Like many families there is a mix but there is enough evidence that many of the Frey's do have a bond and loyalty to their House. Jesus. This is the middle ages, not a commune in San Francisco. Again these are all assumptions based on nothing but your dislike of the character. Walder was mean to the Starks ipso facto he has been mean his entire life. More head cannon nonsense. Is it really that hard to grasp that Walder, who did an evil thing at the Red Wedding, is still a human being who can care for his family despite a horrific act of revenge he committed at the age of 91? We do. And it is well. lol come on, not he does not. He is blunt, he is not humiliating them. Again, this is the middle ages. How is that 'quite probable'? What evidence from the books make that quite probable? How does that benefit Walder? There are plenty of hacky writers who do books like this, characters are either black or white, GRRM has more nuance than that. You claimed Walder was a hedonist, I was just pointing out that nothing in the books suggests this, no description from othe characters, no examples from the Twins or how Walder and the Freys present themselves. But that is not the case. We know his Symond's wife had multiple handmaidens. We know how expensive it is to make a son a knight, Lord Sunderland has seven sons and it is bankrupting him with them becoming knights. There is zero evidence that his family are thankful to have food. That is just pure bullshit. A hedonist would ignore these standards and just spend on what pleases him. The fact that Walder does not, he's the only one of Robb's Lords willing to pay the ransoms for his sons and is willing to pay a huge dowry to see his daughter married speaks that his primary concern is not about self gratification. There is much evidence to contradict your claim that he is a hedonist, and none to support it. I don't say so, the books say so. No need to be petulant. What part of that post do you disagree with? I'm happy to discuss it cordially with you, but please don't act like a child and just ignore it because it offers an alternative and logical reason why someone who grew up when hundreds of thousands of people had died in a short period of time may value family. How does he treat the current one? She is? Please back this up. Please share? What can she expect after Walder's death? No, he is saying there will likely be a power struggle and that the more distant and useless members will not be supported in the same way that Walder did. Merret is a drunk, that is all he has done in the last 20 years. So your earlier claim that the Frey's only received food under Walder is again disproved. He probably would not, not unless he started to prove useful. Which is the same of most Houses, few Houses give their members, let alone ancillary members such a free ride that Merret has received these last 20 years. Again, same for any noble in his positon. This is not just limited to Freys. Nobles are expected to contribute to society, Merret does not. Merret's reputation is as the biggest drunk in the Twins. That is through his own doing, since he failed to become a Knight he was happy to give into gluttony and excess and it is only now, with the death of Stevron, the soon to be death of his father, that he is worrying about the consequences of a life wasted and is trying o show Ryman and his sons that he is not a complete waste. How does a figure of speech show that he does not care whether they live or die? lol he's not being literal? He is showing how many sons he has, he is not literally asking to have such a competition. Cat has came into his home and threatened him with the army outside, he is commenting on the lack of respect he gets from the likes of the Starks, Tullys and Lannisters and shows pride in the size of his family, but he is not trying to sacrifice them. Is that really what your take away from that chapter was? How is she sacrificed? She marries Edmure. She does not get to be Lady of Riverrun, but she is not being sacrificed.
  9. Bernie Mac

    Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

    He's likely not the smartest, but he's certainly smart. Not Maester smart, but certainly in Lordship terms. The only time the word intelligent is used in the entire book series is in regard to the ancient Walder https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=intelligent Walder has been in charge for House Frey for decades and either they have grown to become the most powerful House in that time or he has maintained that position, which is no easy feat, and has done so without royal favour or support from the Lord of the Riverlands. As for organizing a bloodbath, we know that it was Roose and Lothar who organized that. Furthermore Walder is ancient by their standards. He's 92 and he's only ever committed one 'bloodbath'. Had he died a few months earlier he'd have gone 91 years without ever committing a bloodbath, it seems odd that this should define his character and his more than half a century of rule. If anything the defining part of his rule is the fact that he has always been cautious about going to war. That is not really true. Robert is a hedonist, spending his time drinking and fucking and taking zero responsibility for his actions. Walder is not, quite the opposite, his dedication to family shows this. And when he goes, everything will change, and not for the better. His father was querulous and stubborn, with an iron will and a wasp's tongue, but he did believe in taking care of his own. All of his own, even the ones who had displeased and disappointed him. Even the ones whose names he can't remember. Once he was gone, though . . . When Ser Stevron had been heir, that was one thing. The old man had been grooming Stevron for sixty years, and had pounded it into his head that blood was blood That is not the description of someone who is a hedonist. Robert, Tytos and even the small details we know about the Lord of Tarth all make them sound more like hedonists than Walder, even unmarried Edmure who spends his time in brothels and friends falls more into this category. Walder Frey is a Lord in the middle ages of a population of hundreds of thousands. he does not need to marry to have sex. He does not need to care for his bastards, he choses to do so. The TV show is obviously not book cannon but GRRM clearly was closely involved in the first season and the Frey's looked more like stereotypical Puritans than hedonists. Even in the books we know of their wealth through the appendix, from Cat, from other characters and even from the Dunk and Egg series but in the Twins there is not signs of ostentatious spending, none of the Frey's, like Renly, Mace, or the Tywin and Jaime are clothed in particularly notable clothing (either expensive or cheap) and the only time Walder throws around cash is in dowries for his daughters, to pay the ransoms of his captured sons at Harrenhal and later with the BWB or to bribe the Household of White Harbour. This is not the spending of a hedonist. There are actual more plausible reasons why Walder has had so many wives and children He's ancient, no other Lord in the series is his age. His age and health is astounding, there are many cases of much younger Lords taking wives, maybe had some lived to Walder's age the likes of Hightower would have as many children as Walder does He was born in the era of the Great Spring Sickness and the draughts in the South, events that saw large amounts of the population dead. He lived in an era where Aegon the unlikely became King despite being 17th in line at one point. Beron Stark was the Lord of Winterfell while Walder was a child, he died young but still had 8 kids, many of whom also died young. Had Beron and his children were as healthy and long lived as Walder and his offspring were House Stark would be similarly as large. I'm sorry, I just don't see how Walder's a hedonist. Come on, that is wrong. Merret, who has been useless since a teenager since his injury, directly contradicts this. Merret worries about himself because Walder's heirs, Stevron's branch, do not share Walder and Stevron's ideals about family. Of the captured nobles from the battle of Green Fork only Walder pays ransoms to release his family, both legitimate and bastard sons. His anger at the Twins about Robb offering an apology for a dead grandson also show how he's pissed at his family losses. Yes he's old and blunt, but he clearly does care about his family. It seems an all too lazy stereotype that antagonists don't have any feelings for their family and only seen them as pawns, Merret's POV (himself one of the most useless Freys) contradicts this about Walder.
  10. Bernie Mac

    Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

    But half the kingdom of the North has not revolted. Stannis has a couple of thousand Northmen in his army, less than the Northern army Roose took home with him. We are talking a very, very small part of the population of the North revolting, to call it en masse is just wrong. I get that its a bitch to be arguing semantics but the North is not rebelling en masse. Well I'm only commenting on what we've actually seen in the books as of the sample chapters of TWOW. You are speculating on something that may or may not happen, but I can only go on what has actually happened. You are arguing your headcannon of what will happen, I'm arguing the text.
  11. Bernie Mac

    Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

    Exactly, they are split. They can't be revolting en masse when the North is hugely fractured. Many are, many are not. The Boltons have a fair amount of support, there is also a small part of the North who have done nothing during all this. To characterize the North as revolting en masse against the Iron Throne is disingenuous. First of all its not half the kingdom, there is around 5-6k on each side at Winterfell. You'll find most peasants in the North, like any other region, could not give two shits to who they pay their taxes to, they just want an end to the war.
  12. Bernie Mac

    Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

    Hardly. He did not inherit his crown, his army crowned him (making him more of a Warlord) He did not pass on his crown, Robb's been dead for a year in the books, the vast majority of his vassals have moved on and sworn oaths to new kings. He was not recognized as a King by any foreign power He did not set foot in the North while he was King of it, another King controlled 'his' capital for much of Robb's short reign He had no currency or government. During his 'reign' he was one of four kings claiming to be King of the North By most terminology Robb would be seen as a pretender rather than an actual King. He fails most Kingly criteria. His own brother even refers to him as such. "They north rode with Robb, bled with him, died for him. They have supped on grief and death, and now you come to offer them another serving. Do you blame them if they hang back? Forgive me, Your Grace, but some will look at you and see only another doomed pretender." He was no successful in his bid to win his throne, he could not get the Iron Throne to recognize his legitimacy, nor any other sovereign nation nor even any other pretender or warlord. By his army, not his Vassals. The majority of his lords did not get a say in it, his army crowned him and most went along with the army. That is not a King, that is a Warlord calling himself a King. Many warlords do actually become legitimate Kings who pass on their crowns to their heirs, Robb was not one of them, Robb was a pretender fighting, along with four others, for the North. Yes it is true. Do you not understand they 'mostly did not attend'. Most of Riverland nobles did not attend, Cat points this out. You seem to be confused or just looking for an argument (quelle surprise) but at no point did I say no Riverand nobles attended, I said few did. Well actually I quoted Cat on this Aside from her brother Edmure's modest retinue of friends, the lords of the Trident had remained to hold the riverlands while the king retook the north Is Cat lying? Are you better informed that one of the actual characters in the book? By all means quote it. Don't rely on your own headcannon to win a discussion. Use actual evidence from the books to back up your claim. First of all how many do you think is large as lets not waste time on semantics. State how many Riverland soldiers died at the Red Wedding and then try to back it up and prove Cat to be lying. Hardly. This is a hugely hyperbolic statement. The North is clearly split, characterizing them as revolting en masse is either you being deliberately disingenuous or not understanding the words you are using.
  13. I think you are clearly mistaking the fandom's view of Robb Stark to how he is viewed in the North in AFFC and ADWD. He is not some myth, he is a pretender who gambled to heavily and lost. "They north rode with Robb, bled with him, died for him. They have supped on grief and death, and now you come to offer them another serving. Do you blame them if they hang back? Forgive me, Your Grace, but some will look at you and see only another doomed pretender." - Jon Snow Apart from one young girl bringing up Robb we don't hear much in the way of mythologizing Robb in AFFC and ADWD, especially as he died as a result of the 3,500 Northmen with Roose. Half his own army was against him at the Red Wedding. GRRM has set up the Bolton's demise, Ramsay is a psychopath and the longer he lives the more likely the Dustin/Ryswell faction will switch as they will never allow him to rule them. Quite a few of those battles were won due to the larger army.
  14. How would he? Renly is playing the role of cupid, that is it. If Robert decides to set aside his wife and marry another that is on Robert. Why would the North and Stormlands be against Renly for the King doing as a King pleases? And how would the Stormlands be against Renly? Most of the Lords supported him usurping the throne.
  15. Sounds like he (and Stannis) considered it his plan "We both know your wedding was a mummer's farce. A year ago you were scheming to make the girl one of Robert's whores." "A year ago I was scheming to make the girl Robert's queen," Renly said, "but what does it matter? And Varys spy network backs this plan up The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. Yeah, not according to the books we have. If anything she seems to have been one of the perpetrators behind murdering Joffrey, which delays a Tyrell sitting on the Iron Throne. You are. Or are you satisfied with the quotes from Renly about his plan and Olenna about not wanting to support Renly? Why would Olenna need to lie to Sansa when in the same conversation Sansa is being told how much Renly was liked by Mace, Margaery and Loras. What exactly does Olenna have to gain from that? What does GRRM? It seems an entirely meaningless lie to make with no payoff. She influences his decision, she does not order him around. Lady Olenna had no plan, she did not want the Tyrells mixed up in it. We know that past experience has not exactly made her enamoured with royalty given her failed betrothal to Daeron. He's not in charge in name only, he's in charge. That is just a fact. But that is false. We know for a fact that is false as we know that she did not want her House to rebel and support a Usurper. That is canon. What does she have to gain from bringing that up in the first place to Sansa. Not sure how this applies here. Does Tarly think Lady Olenna is in charge of House Tyrell? Rowan? Redwyne? Any of his vassals? Does Tywin, Tyrion or Varys come to this conclusion? Why does Tywin not deal directly with Olenna like he does in the show, where she actually is in command. Why does she not stick around after the Wedding? The Olenna and Mace from the show are not the same as their counterparts in the book. Not that we know of. It could well be that she gave him a different viewpoint, one he found to make more sense, pointing out how unsuitable Cersei was as a bride considering her age. That is not backed up by the books. It contradicts what we learn in the books. Again, this is not a conversation about his intelligence, its about him being in command. Plenty of idiots are in charge, plenty of idiots are competent leaders due to listening to their more intelligent councillors. Mace is a competent leader. Certainly in comparison to many of his peers. Exactly, so why are you so concerned with it? Yes. They can only have Willas marry who they want if they convince Mace it is the right thing to do. Sansa is not a hard sell. Nor is convincing him that the 30something Cersei might not be the best match for his heir.
  16. Bernie Mac

    Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

    They pretty much did. Are the Charlton's and Vypren's their closest neighbours? Both of those Houses were on Walders' side. He was more pretender than King. Yup, that was the custom they broke. The people inside the Twins were promised safety and never received it. Some will be desperate for it, most notably Blackwood and Piper. Some would not care. The Riverlords mostly did not attend, it was primarily Nothern nobles. Thirty-five hundred they were, thirty-five hundred who had been blooded in the Whispering Wood, who had reddened their swords at the Battle of the Camps, at Oxcross, Ashemark, and the Crag, and all through the gold-rich hills of the Lannister west. Aside from her brother Edmure's modest retinue of friends, the lords of the Trident had remained to hold the riverlands while the king retook the north. I think many things, such as them not being in a positon to get revenge. The Blackwoods were down to 500 men most of the Houses are currently spent, they simply don't have the numbers or the unity to take on the Freys. Their larger army, their well protected castles. Again, some despise, some dislike, some will be indifferent and some will be allies.
  17. Come on. Renly's lying and now Olenna's lying. You are jumping through a lot of hoops to make your theory make sense. You can't simply reject evidence because you don't like it. It hardly went bust, Margaery is Queen, Mace sits on the Small Council and Garlan the new Lord of Brightwater Keep. This has hardly been a bust for Mace nor does he or anyone else view it as such. The Crown even went back on declaring Renly a traitor. It would be nice to not put words in my mouth. I claimed he was in charge, 'iron fisted' is your emphasis, not mine. Someone does not need to be ironfisted to be in charge, I imagine Mace is quite laissez faire in his style. Welcome to others opinons She's his elderly mother, she knows she can say what she wants, she is not going to be punished for it. For all you know Mace may even find it amusing. It means she is sometimes able to manipulate her son. I expect that may be true of many leaders. Robert was the same, he was still the one command. I'm getting that you have a very specific style of command here, you may be arguing semantics here as its possible we have both different understandings of command. To put it clearly, Mace is in charge, he has the final say. That is not to say that others, like his mother or daughter, can not influence him or even sometimes have him change his mind, but ultimately he is in command of House Tyrell. He is not going to his mother to ask permission to act, his mother is not giving him orders, when she wants him to do something she has to manipulate him into doing and as we see with the Renly scenario, she is not always successful. I genuinely thinking you are misreading the matter. She is talking of manipulating him into thinking it was his choice, this is not an uncommon tact in some relationships. But Mace, not his mother, has the final say. Sure there is. By the end of ADWD he is the Regent, his daughter the Queen and he the most powerful Lord in the realm. That is not the sign of incompetency. No. Where do you think I claimed that? Being in charge does not mean every single act is made by the Lord. It is clearly the women of House Tyrell's plot. They were trying to be subtle, lay the groundwork. Mace would have the final say on who his son married, not his mother. His mother can suggest who and make a compelling case, but it is Mace's call to make. eh? Why would he? Tywin is in charge of the Lannisters but there are going to be times his subordinates are acting on their own. Mace is no different. Sansa was not the prize for Mace, his daughter being Queen was. Sansa, like Brightwater Keep or the Handship, were just bonuses. It is not the end of the world if they fall through. How is that buffoonery? You are stretching the meaning of the word here. Clearly not always, crowning Renly is evidence of this. But of course he caved. He's outranked by Tywin on this matter and its not a huge issue. Notice who does not get a say in the Martells crossing the Reach, Lady Olenna. Notice who is not on the Small Council, Lady Olenna.
  18. Bernie Mac

    Fair Compensation for House Frey

    How? Why should the wife of the Hand and the daughter of the Lord of the Riverlands be worried about being recognized in the Riverlands. How is that Tyrion's fault? How is he supposed to know this? Tyrion was also lightly protected When does Cat complain about this? You do realize you are inventing reasons Cat never gives. We know precisely why Cat takes Tyrion hostage and it is not because she was fearful of being took hostage herself. No one is denying that. There was multiple causes for the war. And the Starks also contributed. Many people contributed to the war. Yup. No one has ever denied this. I'd imagine many Lords were the same, they certainly were in our own history. Mostly by the Tullys. Hoster did not like the fact that Walder Frey has close relations to the Lords of the West. They were also looked down on because of their status as a fairly new House and due to them operating a successful business. The Freys are basically the middle ages Jews of Westeros. Other Lords resent them for their success. Not that we know. Robb's agreement was to marry a Frey, he did not fulfil that agreement. The Frey's fulfilled their part of the agreement, they allowed him access to their bridge and supported him at Riverrun. Again, hearsay. Robb never says he married Jeyne for that reason. And surely you are contradicting yourself, either he married due to the love potion or due to guilt. In one of your theories he has no say, in the other he does. Not only is there zero evidence for either but they actually contradict each other. Robb is responsible for his actions.
  19. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    So not common knowledge. Glad we have established that. He did just that, but Ned's predicament is that many of the men loyal to the Crown are also loyal to the Queen. The majority of the court don't distinguish between the two. Ned did not have an excess amount of people he trusted and could use. Yes. Ned was trying to be subtle. How does his daughter blabbing disprove that? Is there any need for the 'gotcha'? You are coming across as a little sensitive in this topic. Ned has not got the finances to make such a deal and barely knows Slynt, plus his honour won't let him debase himself that much. Littlefinger has the finances, a better relationship with Slynt; he's Ned's only real choice. But he wouldn't. Ned's plan is to crown Stannis. Ned is only regent if the king is underage, if Joffrey is not the king then Ned is not regent. It's a catch 22 situation, but Ned only has authority if Joffrey is King. No, not that we know of. For one a Regent, as confirmed by both Ned and Renly, needs to be confirmed by the Small Council to become Regent. He's not in a positon to promise anything. But again, he's only Regent if Joffrey is King. From who? When does he time to do all this? He barely knows Slynt, has his own affairs to organize and has barely enough men to guard himself and his daughters. Ned does not have the manpower to seize the treasury and even if he did such an action would immediately tip off the Queen to his actions. He's not. So? Regents are only for underage or incapacitated monarchs, Stannis is neither. Ned is only regent if the King is underage, per the will of Robert Baratheon. If the King is not underage then Ned is nothing. The whole reason why Ned tries to quickly have the Small Council confirm his Regency is because without it he has no real power to act. Let me rephrase that, he does not have enough loyal men in Kings Landing. Are you really disputing this? No one ever claimed that. Can you stop with the straw man bullshit. Ned brings 50 soldiers to court, he did not feel he needed to bring any more from Winterfell due to not suspecting that he'd need his own personal army to stage a coup. Ned only realizes that he needs his own men when its too late, the Gold Cloaks are his best option. What part of this is confusing you? He could have done, he never considers that an option. Tyrion hires sellswords because of the lesson he learnt from Ned. Cause and Effect. The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing, but Ned for most of his term as Hand was unaware of just how much danger he was in or that he'd need to stay and stage a coup. Ned did not realize that Robert would be on his death bed and he'd not have the full backing of the Crown. You can criticize Ned for his naivety here, but that was the position he was in. He was not insulting him all the time. He initially took Littlefinger's talk of his wife as an insult and acted rashly, but he's hardly constantly insulting him. When was he meant to do it? The King has to be dead and the Small Council present to do so. They call him a traitor because he tried to arrest the Royal Family in the throne room. Cersei, before that, tells Ned to go home, he refuses thinking he had the upper hand. He has zero reason to suspect that he does not have the upper hand in that situation so you suggesting alternatives does not make a lick of sense. You are rewriting too much of the actual book to make a pretty poor point. When? Robert had died hours ago, not weeks. When does Ned have all the time to do this? He's only Hand while Robert lives, but you are incorrect. The Hand needs the support of the King to rule in his stead. Jon Arryn wanted to remove Janos Slynt, he was not allowed. The powers of a Hand depend entirely on the Hand and the King. There is zero indication in the books that the Hands under Robert had unlimited power to act without Robert's permission. Yes. Tyrion, as he points out in his own chapters, has learnt from Ned's lesson. Tyrion has been given a small army, Ned was down to 20 men in the short period between him finding out about the incest and Robert's death. Tyrion, like Cregan Stark almost two centuries earlier, has the power to do what he pleases because he has both the military backing and the support of the Crown due to Cersei not wanting to displease her father. Tyrion and Ned's positons are not the same. Tyrion expected to need an army, Ned did not. Do you really not understand this? You are judging Ned on hindsight. And Tyrion learnt from Ned's mistakes, he acted too quickly with Slynt that Cersei could not reverse the decision. He also has his father's permission to do so. The major difference between Ned and Tyrion is that Tyrion and Cersei, despite their differences, are working on the same side in ACOK. Has anyone argued that about in regards to Tyrion and Slynt? Well no, he could not have, not without Robert's permission. That is an established fact, the previous Hand wanted rid of Slynt, he did not get his wish. Ned, at that point, did not know he would be staging a coup. He has no reason to think he needs to bring his own personal army to the capital. He can't remove the Queens' family. Of course he did not do anything about it. He could not get Robert to change his mind on Jaime being Warden of the East, he's hardly going to try and have Tywin's nephews removed as Robert's squires. Which Lannister positons should he have replaced? Yeah, it is. You have all these answers for questions that Ned never knew he'd be facing. He was a little out of his depth, but he had zero reason to suspect that Robert would die, Joffrey was a bastard and that he'd need to stage a coup to wrestle control of the realm. Ned is only in a positon to need his own private army for a few days. He simply did not have enough time to raise them. He also trusts Jon Arryn, so he is not going to go out of his way to make too many changes right away. Ned was not to know that he'd only be Hand for a matter of months. Once again, you are basing this on hindsight, Ned may have eventually made the changes to right the court, he did not know there was such a time limit on it. He didn't really have much choice regarding Sansa as she was betrothed to the Prince. No Hand in the history of Westeros has just started and then created new positons on the spot. Again, you are pulling an answer out of thin air. Exactly, his job. Glad we are agreed on that. He could, but, once again, you are criticizing him for not having the gift of hindsight. He's a stranger to Kings Landing, does know the government officials to be able to judge their suitability for the positon. The changes he can make are likely to the positons Jon Arryn granted and he has no reason to suspect that Jon Arryn did not appoint decent, capable men in those positons. In time he could have learnt all that, sadly for Ned he did not have time. He could not have known that. No, it does not. We don't need to interpret it any other way than the text has it, that Littlefiner's shadiness was done with the support of Robert. Of course. Are you under the impression that I or any one else in this thread has claimed that Littlefinger wanted him as King? They don't. But Littlefinger not wanting Stannis to be King does not mean he told Renly about the incest like someone (perhaps you) originally claimed in this thread. Littlefinger not wanting Stannis as King does not mean he is particularly fond of Renly. Most of the realm don't want Stannis as King, Littlefinger has not told them about the incest either. What the fuck dude? Who claimed they would have a very happy and loving relationship? Stannis does not have a very happy and loving relationship with his wife, his brothers and his own councillors on Dragonstone and at the Wall. Stannis is more than capable of working with people he is not in a very happy and loving relationship. Surely you acknowledge that?
  20. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    Excellent, we are on the same page. It was not obvious. So Renly now knowing is perfectly acceptable conclusion in the books. That is the inference from your comments. If that is not what you meant then I apologize. Can you expand what you mean in your last few posts talking about siblings being close. What is your point to such observations? Come on, I'm only quoting what you've said. It sounded that the twins being close should have made people suspicious. Is that not what you meant? Please clarify as your posts are not doing that. Surely you must be aware that this contradicts your other point. If the Baratheon gene is that dominant it could be any Baratheon descendent going back 300 years. But no, we have no idea if Renly took any notice of the Blacksmith's apprentice. Stannis did, Stannis was told who he was before hand and stared intensely at Gendry. Gendry makes no comment on Renly ever doing the same. And regardless if Gendry did ever think he was a bastard of Robert's why would he care? He does not know who Gendry's mother was or what she looked like, we do as Ned knows to ask. Ned, Jon and Stannis meet Gendry looking for an answer to Joffrey and his siblings parentage. If Renly is in the dark there is no reason for him to think too much about this. Robert having bastards is not a big deal. Stannis is prematurely bald, his daughter has the Florent ears. And once again, this is only noticeable if you already know what you are looking for. 99.9999% of the people who know what both Robert and his 'legitimate' children look like are not looking for reasons why they are bastards. Did they? Can you refresh my memory of these times? The argument infront of Ned is not public, it is a private argument with one witness. I think it is. Just because a couple are in love does not mean people presume they hate each other. We know they hate each other due to Ned being Robert's best friend and Cersei being a POV character and admitting to murdering her husband. Most people at court are not aware of this. "No. I am what I am. The king makes use of me, but it shames him. A most puissant warrior is our Robert, and such a manly man has little love for sneaks and spies and eunuchs. If a day should come when Cersei whispers, 'Kill that man,' Ilyn Payne will snick my head off in a twinkling, and who will mourn poor Varys then? North or south, they sing no songs for spiders." He reached out and touched Ned with a soft hand. "But you, Lord Stark … I think … no, I know … he would not kill you, not even for his queen, and there may lie our salvation." Robert brings his wife to him to Winterfell, he gives in to his wife when she wants a Direwolf killed, he gives into his wife when she suggests Jaime be made Warden. Them hating each other is a well kept secret, them not being in love is not. Not rumours, Varys tells Ned that, no one else does so it is not like this was common gossip. Compared to something that literally everyone is unaware of? What factors? Robert having bastards is not a factor and due to all but one of them being unacknowledged the appearance of them is not going to be a big deal. And it is not just that the bastards take after Robert in looks but that their mothers were blonde, which adds into the evidence from the books on previous offspring of Baratheon-Lannister unions (a book that does not seem to have been borrowed to Renly or Stannis, but to Ned and Jon). An arranged marriage being just that is also not going to be suspicious. Them not being happy is not unique to them in their world. For every Ned and Tywin there is Lord and Lady Martell, Arryn and Greyjoy
  21. No, there is not. "She might think we have some wits about us. One of us, at any rate." The old woman turned back to Sansa. "It's treason, I warned them, Robert has two sons, and Renly has an older brother" Olenna was against the rebellion, her son overruled her. Clearly Olenna was not enamoured with the Joffrey-Margaery wedding and it seems Mace ignored her on that one as well. You are mistaking talking down about her son with her being in charge of him, she is not. Obedient sons are less likely to be called 'oafs'. I think you are confusing the books with the show on this one. I liked the shows interpretation, Rigg was an excellent actress and a great foil to Tywin, Tyrion and Cersei in her scenes but the Olenna in the books is not that character, nor is she a Genna Lannister who sits in on war councils despite her gender and orders her husband about. Olenna is the matriarch of the House and the women of House Tyrell are seen as accomplished and able, but their roles are to influence the males in their House rather than to command. Why would Mace need to be there? The whole point of that meeting was to make Sansa feel comfortable, relaxed and to show them to be different to the scheming Lannisters. It was a meeting of sisterhood and it was a meeting to try and keep the Lannisters out of the loop. "Lord Tyrell will not broach the matter of the Stark girl until after Joffrey's wedding. If Sansa is wed before that, how can he take offense, when he gave us no hint of his intentions?" Tywin does not think he is dealing with Olenna. Olenna is in the capital to arrange the wedding, such matters are not likely to be handled by the likes of Tywin and Mace, the two most powerful Lords in the realm. And it should be noted that Olenna leaves the capital after the wedding. If she was in charge of the Tyrells she'd remain, like she does in the show, in the books. Influenced, not necessarily overruled. It was still Mace's call to make. But him being influenced by his advisor's is normal. Jon Snow does not command Stannis yet he was still able to change Stannis' mind about attacking the Dreadfort. Again, that is influence, rather than command. She's not made the decision, she has convinced Mace it was the right decision and his decision all along. Olenna is smarter than her son, no one is denying this, but Mace is in charge and has the final say. That does not mean others, including his mother, can convince him to change his mind, but ultimately it is his mind to change. Had Olenna been in charge she's not need to influence, she'd command. Certainly. How does contradict my point? We don't know how easy it was to manipulate Mace as we have no idea how attached he was to his original opinion. On some matters she may be able to change his mind and others, such as crowning Renly, she clearly is not. Being able to influence some decisions does not mean you are in charge. Well yeah, Doran for a start. She was the ruler of Dorne until she died. We have zero knowledge on the relationship Ned or Tywin had with their mother. How exactly do you think he is being treated in that paragraph? She stepped into stop him from making a scene. But once again you are mistaking Olenna being smarter than her son and recognizing that he had been politically out manoeuvred to her being in control of him. Of course he took the credit, it was his army, his Van that beat Robert. This is no different to all commanders in the series. Twyin's being congratulated for the Mountain's victory at Duskendale. When Mace's army gets a victory he is going to be acknowledged for it. Tyrion's actually quite the hypocrite in this situation, he's not telling others of the contributions of his subordinates at the Battle of Backwater, in his mind he saved the city. Not at all. The quotes you have used in this reply contradict that. It is not for appearance sakes, it is how it is. Evidence from the books that suggests that she was in favour of that marriage? Otherwise this is just one baseless claim used as 'evidence' to support another baseless claim. That is not the reality, the reality is that she is able to influence some decisions and not others. Is it not? Come on, not to be rude but you've pulled that out of your ass. There is zero evidence for this. Which being Queen does, even being a long term paramour to the King does. This is ridiculous. There is not just one prize.
  22. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    Who knows how many times he visited his love in the North. They were clearly just more devious than the Lannisters and kept their affair hidden from Ned. Robert never saw the twins bang, no one did yet you are acting like the children looking like their mother should be obvious to anyone that they are not Robert's children. The same should be true of Ned and his own offspring right? The trouble with your comment is that you have been given the answer and are now puzzled why the characters in the books have not came to the same conclusion you were given by Cersei herself. It seems obvious to the reader because the reader has been given the admission of guilt and all the evidence. The people in the books have not, Joffrey looking like his mother is not a sign that he is a bastard, Robert's bastards looking like him is not a sign either. Most characters are not making that connection just like Ned is not making that connection between Robb and Jon. Bastard. Robert had only ever acknowledged one of his bastards. So to pretty much everyone in the realm Edric is the only known bastard of Robert. Obviously there are pockets of people connected with each unacknowledged bastard who would know or suspect who their father was, but that's it. This is evidence when Robert was alive, he could confirm that those were his children or that he at least slept with the women the appropriate number of years ago. After Robert's death it is far less convincing. That is never claimed. What the research did show was that of the three previous marriages between Lannister and Baratheon the children inherited the looks of their Baratheon parent. But Baratheon's don't have some magical gene that makes them dominant and that is not the belief in Westeros. We know that Brienne has Baratheon ancestry, she does not have the famous Baratheon black hair nor do I imagine many Baratheon women had her build or facial features. The Baratheons have ruled the Stormlands for 300 years, if their genes were so dominant the majority of the Stormland nobility would be Baratheon in appearance. They are not. Even Jon Arryn, who uncovered this, did not think this was conclusive. He does not blurt out the truth on his deathbed but leaves hints so others can pick up his investigation. Can't imagine that such marriages were that uncommon. Doran and his wife were not happy and they actually married for love. Jon Arryn and Lysa were hardly happy. Balon's wife lives apart from him. Stannis and Selyse are hardly the picture of a decent marriage. I'd also point out that Cersei kept her bruises and the attempted rape to herself, she hid those from everyone including Jaime. Robert's complaints to Ned are not likely to be told to most people but the people he is closest to. Right, but you are working backwards here. If you tell someone that Cersei's children were bastards then you'd have to figure out who the possible fathers are but people are not under the impression that the Queen would be stupid enough to cuckold the king, to do so three times. Again, you are working with the benefit of hindsight. You know the answer so are looking for clues on who it could be. The realm of Westeros does not have the answer so they are not looking for clues on who the father of 'Robert's' children are. We don't know that. We have no idea how Stannis found out, or when he found out. We don't know if someone made an innocent remark to him (like Sansa to Ned) and it clicked, we don't know if someone who knew (Varys- Littlefinger) planted the seed in his thoughts, we don't know if he saw Cersei and Jaime act suspiciously towards each other.
  23. Bernie Mac

    An entire royal line wiped out in one battle?

    ? How was Stannis' role downplayed and how did this placate the Lannisters?
  24. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    With what men? He has sent half his men to the Riverlands, lost another two men to the fight with Jaime and has his daughters to worry about. He's not got the manpower to seize the treasury and you are missing the point, Ned was trying to be subtle, to not alert Cersei to his actions. How can Ned offer Lordships? He's not going to be Regent as his plan is to make Stannis King. What Lordships has he the power to give away? That is the point, Ned did not have any loyal men. Tyrion, who unlike Ned was no stranger to Kings Landing, comes to Kings Landing with an army. A column of riders emerged from beneath the portcullis with a clink of steel and a clatter of hooves. Clegane stepped close to the king, one hand on the hilt of his longsword. The visitors were dinted and haggard and dusty, yet the standard they carried was the lion of Lannister, golden on its crimson field. A few wore the red cloaks and mail of Lannister men-at-arms, but more were freeriders and sellswords, armored in oddments and bristling with sharp steel . . . and there were others, monstrous savages out of one of Old Nan's tales, the scary ones Bran used to love. Not only does Tyrion have his own army but he has Tywin's seal meaning the Lannister men in the city are also his to command and Tyrion, unlike Ned, had Bronn immediately hire sellswords within Kings Landing. No one told Ned to ask Littlefinger to bribe the Gold Cloaks, you can't blame Cat for Ned trying a royal coup. That is on Ned and Ned alone. Again, that is on Ned and Ned alone. How could he Robert was still alive? They can't acknowledge the King's will while the King is still alive. And the Will, even with Ned's change, still makes it clear that Joffrey is the heir. He was trying to get them to acknowledge it ASAP. "...the old knight would not abandon Joffrey easily. The need for deceit was a bitter taste in his mouth, but Ned knew he must tread softly here, must keep his counsel and play the game until he was firmly established as regent. There would be time enough to deal with the succession when Arya and Sansa were safely back in Winterfell, and Lord Stannis had returned to King's Landing with all his power. "I would ask this council to confirm me as Lord Protector, as Robert wished," You are not offering any advice that Ned was not already trying to do. No, they answer to the King. Ned points out that he needs the Council to confirm his as Regent, he can't just order them to do so and even before that Renly points out that Ned needs the Council's to confirm him as Regent. Joffrey outranks the Hand. When? And we are talking about what actually happened, lets not go down to many rabbit holes with endless what if's. Ned did not know he'd need his own personal army in the Capital till it was too late. In only a number of days Ned finds out about Joffrey and his siblings and Robert is on his deathbed. He's not time to raise his own personal army. He was reliant on Littlefinger. Littlefinger was his only option in the time he had. I'm not sure how this is not obvious? Ned is disgusted with the duplicity and the bribery but he has no other choice. If it was as simple as raising his own army in time he'd do just that. Time and distance prevents him from doing so. When? Jon Arryn was not able to get Robert to replace Janos Slynt, what makes you think Ned could get him to replace the Small Council? You are speaking with the benefit of hindsight. It's really easy to point out what Ned should have done after reading how he failed. No Hand in the history of Westeros has became Hand and then just created new positons on the Small Council without the King's permission. That is not true. He was pissed with the economics of the Hand's Tourney and tried to curb that, he tried to stop the assassination of Dany and was ignored, he counselled against the appointment of Jaime as Warden of the East and was overruled. Ned knew what his responsibilities were, his King simply did not allow him to do so. It should also be noted that Ned is not familiar with running the realm. In time he may have replaced the Master of Coin, Master of Whispers and other lesser positons in the capital (he's stuck with the Master of Ships and Laws and it is the Citadel who appoint a Grand Maester) but he's inexperienced and needs those men in place while he's still learning the ropes. It would be idiotic for an inexperienced Hand to appoint an inexperienced Master of Coin, Master of Whispers etc. and hope everyone to be up to speed straight away. That quote is saying he is corrupt on the Crown's behalf, not on his own. Big difference. It is Stannis laying the blame with Robert more so than anyone else. How so? Littlefinger's dealings are not thought to be worse than smuggling. There is not a single quote in the book series that indicates that Stannis is going to punish Littlefinger. Not one
  25. Bernie Mac

    Just how many people knew about the incest?

    I'm sorry but the automatic assumption of an unhappy (arranged) marriage is not that the wife has cuckolded her husband three times and is sleeping with her brother.
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