Lucifer Lightbringer

Who wants to take bets on whether or not Jon will be the one to kill Ygritte?

I normally give a lot of various reasons for my rating, but not tonight. I am giving it a 10, simply for the comments I am reading on the Game of Thrones Facebook page. I have been waiting for this moment.

:rolleyes:

I gave it a 9. This episode was wonderfully paced. Even where it deviated from the books, there was a sense of purpose and nuance that allowed this episode a greater depth and complexity than some others. It had time to breathe and to really elaborate on characterization. The focus and direction here was just great - truly it stands amongst the most well-crafted episodes on television. I have to take off .10 of a point because they made the asshole Second Sons captain look exactly like me (only with 20 pounds more muscle). When I saw the previews I was really hoping he would be Daario so that I could have a lookalike on the show, but alas he was a foolish douche that only lasted one episode. I do like the guy the actually cast for Daario, though. I enjoyed the Dany scenes and they stayed fairly close to the books. The entire wedding ordeal was beautifully handled, even if it didn't have quite the same tension as there was in the book. All the little details made a great sum; Tyrion raising his glass to Loras, Tywin demanding a grandson, Cersei explaining the Reynes of Castamere, Joffrey being a creepy bastard, Sansa's quiet desperation and Tyrion's drunken frustration all made these scenes very compelling and well paced. Slow enough to get a feel for the situation, but with enough little 'events' to really populate the scenes with life. I have a really big crush on Melisandre, so I always like to see her. I don't know that it was necessary to have the sex thrown in, but I suppose it shows how much passion she has for her beliefs and how much she is willing to manipulate others to achieve her goals. She sees everyone she slights or even harms as blessed for serving a role in her God's plan, and she praises strength and vitality for the use that she kind find for it. Certainly a little twisted, but I find it oddly attractive. Finally, the Sam the Slayer scene was excellent. There was a palpable sense of horror and tension as the ravens descended on the abandoned house, and Sam finally got his moment to shine. I really disagree with the visual look of the Others; they were supposed to be like elegant ice-elves with Predator cloaking. Other than that, I feel like this scene was a perfect end to a great episode and it left the audience excited and disturbed. Overall, really great stuff. Great GoT episode, great adaptation, and great television.

They may have been addressed in ADwD, but chronologically they would have happened in ASoS and AFfC. I don't think anyone is going to argue that Martin could easily fall behind the series if he doesn't pick up his pace, though. On the other hand, We all want him to have the time he needs for an excellent end to the series. If he does fall behind, I will stop watching the show until I've read the last books.

I gave it a 7. It is too bad that this is what they gave Martin to work with. It really seems like he spends this episode doing damage control - he was given the unenviable task of toiling through a lot of plot set up, and he seems to make a focus of showing that his characters are, indeed, interesting and nuanced. He is forced to deal with various decisions he most likely did not make and he does his best at making them as easy to watch and understand as he can. I do like that where possible, this episode stayed close to the books. Where this isn't possible, such as with Gendry and Melisandre, Martin made a decent effort at giving these scenes some gravity and nuance. You can tell the difference between how he handles these deviations, and the clumsy way in which they were originally conceived by B&W. I liked the Theon scenes before, but they have gone on far too long without moving anywhere. I am still waiting for Ramsay to tell Theon his new name and bring some kind of purpose to his programming. This episode was pretty weak in terms of action and plot advancement; it really feels like the duty of biding time. However, given that, it also has some of the strongest character interactions to date and reverses the trend of last week's (horrible) episode, in which everyone was made to seem more one-dimensional and less interesting. You definitely have to credit Martin for really going for substance and characterization in spite of the tatters he was handed to repair. This is especially true for Jon and Ygritte, who have been totally neglected. Overall, a very slow and plain episode, but one that delivers on the little details of characterization that matter most in this whole franchise.

Like I said above, there is a pretty big difference between unflinchingly and objectively portraying a society that is repressive to women, and telling a story in a way that is repressive and demeaning in itself.

True, but it serves as a thoughtful inquiry into the merits of such a system, whereas the show is interpreted completely through the lens of the run of the mill modern patriarchy that media and advertising hold so dear. Which, in my eyes, is chiefly wrong in the context of this kind of entertainment because it is just so trite and boring.

I think you've summed up my position much more succinctly than I did :cheers:

I am going to be pretty harsh and go with 4/10. This episode, especially after the last two, is barely recognizable as ASoIaF or even the GoT show. They have done so much great work adapting the story this season, working with the time and resources they have available to show the broader strokes of characterization, and making changes that are either necessary or that actually add something on their own merit. However, this episode is a total throwaway. Almost all of the adaptive changes they've made appear totally unnecessary and superfluous. This episode does not treat you like an intelligent person; it smacks you in the head with a brick in order to resolve any questions or subtleties the show's writing may have left in question. Cliches abound and many characters are made more one-dimensional through clumsy characterization. This episode is one of the poorest examples of writing in the whole series, in my opinion. You see it coming from every angle; Loras is just a silly gay knight who wants to have a pretty wedding and have lots of gay sex with whomever. Tyrion is just a sardonic saint in a bad situation. Littlefinger is the Joker in velvet. Ygritte and Jon are Bonny and Clyde. When you put the writing done by D&D in contrast with some of the better writers on the show, it really makes it seem like they just don't have the minds for this type of work. They can't stand having grey characters or leaving questions over which one can ponder and debate. They have done some work on this show that is just so ham-fisted and clumsy that it's almost laughable. I understand that they have to lower the scope and detail of the source material in order to put ASoIaF into one hour TV slots, and do it without totally confusing people. Still, they often make choices which seem so clumsy and convoluted when they could just be keeping it simple, and they could leave some things a little more open without being confusing. It must be said that I don't abhor all deviations from the books. Some things are handled very well and some even add a new dimension to the story. However, sometimes they change a character's fundamental traits or motivations so much, or change plot points, so that the only way to reconcile the alterations with the greater story becomes a complication in itself. What I see in this episode is that they have basically had to take an entire hour to scramble at making any sense out of some of their greater deviations. They will have to take such measures again in the future thanks to things like revealing point-blank why Tyrion was almost killed in Blackwater, having Melisandre make an inexplicable trip to kidnap Gendry and giving Littlefinger a 'some people just want to watch the world burn' speech. There were parts in this episode that were done well, but none that stood out. Lord Bolton, Ramsay and Theon are progressing well and I think that their interactions provide some much needed mystery for non book readers. Again, though, I just can't understand why given their already stifling limitations they would spend so much time on other things that are so superfluous and irrelevant. Overall, this was easily amongst the weakest episodes of the entire series.

10/10 Absolutely phenomenal, and in my opinion, the best episode of the show so far. Well written, directed and acted in almost every scene. I have become rather worried that they were starting to paint everything with very broad strokes and were going to make a lot of motivations and backstory unclear to the viewers, but this season they are really pulling it all together as much as can be expected. The only thing that didn't really click for me was Selyse's little foetus collection. It almost made me laugh - WHAT was that? And of course they continue to condense and simplify story arcs, such as moving Jon and Ygritte right along instead of giving them time together, but they have to do that. There are times when it catches them, though. In this episode, they thought they were being clever when they showed Mormont's anxiety about Selmy's knowledge of his agency for King's Landing. But of course, if Selmy isn't hiding his identity then there's no real reason he shouldn't take his complaints directly to Danny. A minor plot hole they created for themselves. Like I said, though, this is overall the best episode so far if you ask me. Very strong direction, lots of details from the books that provide necessary plot points and characterization, and some very strong acting and pacing throughout. They did a great job on this one. Highs for me: Ygritte and Jon in the cave. Because Ygritte. Bath scene. Very well acted, and it reveals some crucial characterization for Jaime, and the development of his relationship with and respect for Brienne. That is the king of thing I feared they would brush over, but here they gave it all the attention it deserved. The trial by combat of Sandor. Absolutely stunning. The other swordplay in the show pales in comparison. Of course, all of the ways they reconcile the show with the books. I'm glad that Tyrion mentioned his previous marriage, and I'm glad that they are making the Lightning Lord true to his book version even if the priest isn't really. I like that they introduced Stannis' daughter and I thought that it was a clever way to show how Stannis might come to realize that Davos is one of his greatest servants and friends. Definitely missing Patchface, though.

I think it's impossible to tell without hindsight. Anything that could possibly cause tension between or harm any of the usurpers would help his cause, which is a pretty broad motivation. 86th IBCT eh?

So far I am not enjoying this season as much as the first two. I can understand that they need to change a lot of things to adapt the novels to a ten hour TV season, but some of the deviations seem unnecessary and fundamentally change characters or plot lines. At this rate of deviation, the entire series could end up being radically different from the books. Perhaps more importantly, most of the scenes they do include do not live up to the potential of the material. The worst thing to me is that there are so many things they could remain more faithful on if they just allowed a small amount of set up ahead of time, but instead they have to have invented tit scenes. Thus, they are always springing things into the story unannounced which diminishes the subtle relationships in the books and makes many things seem very clumsy. For clarification, the things that I dislike most are the differences in the mechanics or behaviors of the world. Things like the powers of R'hllor worshipers, clairvoyance and skinchanging are crucial details that are barely glazed over or totally changed in the TV series. Ironically, the things that I liked most in this episode were the invented scenes (other than the horrible Shae\Tyrion scene and Catelyn's descent into simpering idiocy) and the things that continue to disappoint me are how the original scenes and plot lines are being interpreted. Here are things that I am disappointed about: The total change in characterization of Beric's outlaws. In the books they are like pious Merry Men when they first meet Arya, with Thoros being a reformed or 'born again' priest in the service of R'hllor. I can't remember if they have mentioned Beric's 'special properties' yet, but his relationship to Thoros and his somewhat unique condition are both extremely remarkable things that serve to validate the actions of R'hllor worshipers and serve as an important pivot point in the story. Plus, the self-perceived righteousness and religious tendencies of the outlaws are most of their motivation and set the stage for their darker turn further on. The Sansa arc seems to be very sloppy and convoluted. Shae and Tyrion don't need to be involved at all at this point, and using Baelish up front removes a lot of suspense and a chance for a good reveal later on. It also makes him appear much, much less cunning and forces an extra level of complexity because now we have to openly watch his plan come into place. Shae's involvement is unnecessary and ham fisted, as is Ros' entire existence. The handling of Bran's and Jon's stories and their included elements of skinchanging and visions is pretty iffy. It's a little early to tell at this point, but the fact that Osha and Rickon are still present, Reed implies that the Three Eyed Crow is not a distinct thing, and that the other Stark children haven't experienced their abilities all makes drastic variation seem more likely in the future. This is really one of those things that could have been so easy to do but they just didn't. How hard would it have been to show a couple of minutes of extra exposition on skinchanging? Even having Jon kill Orell wouldn't have been difficult, and having a rogue eagle with a person trapped inside is a really cool detail. Also, Sixskins was a much cooler character than Orell seems to be so far. Catelyn, Robb and Robb's wife (?) are god awful. They don't think that Bran and Rickon are dead, which was supposed to be the motivation for much of what they do (including, ultimately, Robb's marriage). Catelyn is less a stern, bitter and tired matriarch and more a simpering, superstitious idiot, and her motivations are entirely different. I'm also pretty disappointed that there will be no Goat. Like the Fist of the First Men, the fight between Brienne and Jaime was extremely anticlimactic and a hugely wasted opportunity. Here are things that I liked: I think that the Marg\Joff scene was very well done and fleshes out each character in a way that the book couldn't have done because of POV. Joff's actor is excellent and I really like Marg's as well. Overall, this was my favorite scene this episode. I think the Queen of Thorns was well introduced, though I wish she were more of a ham. The Reeds were well cast even though the plotline they are a part of is miles off at this point. I think that, aside from making Thoros and the Brotherhood completely unlike their book versions, they did a good job of condensing Arya's story by bringing in the Hound early and cutting out so much of the traveling. The banter between Brienne and Jaime was well done even if it was out of character from their book versions and the resulting fight was totally lackluster.