Jace, Extat

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

But...this guy literally attained what he sought. He said specifically that he wanted to get the word out and say that his suffering was nothing compared to what people were suffering in Palestine. 

I think the point that should be made here is that many people have tried those options and they haven't succeeded. For him, he felt that he had no other option available to him. It's even reasonable to say that this was not an option either - but that's unknown, honestly. What we do know is that other types of protests in the US have not achieved their goals, so attempting those is clearly not going to work. 

Given that as a framing - trying something that has already been tried and failing, or trying something else - I think it's likely a more sane option to do something different. It's certainly more sane than joining an online protest and expecting some actual outcome. 

You can not condone it, but that doesn't make him disturbed, mentally ill, insane or somehow otherwise non compos mentis; it means you don't agree with it.

We just see this competely differently. Anybody who wants to know what is happening in Gaza knows or has the ability to know.

He killed himself to create a spectacle, what he meant to draw attention to is less important to me than the idea that people would celebrate such an act with language that encourages others to act similarly. I see it as a disease.

4 minutes ago, karaddin said:

And this is one subject area where the research supports this being a genuine concern which is why reporting on suicide has a lot of best practices around in. This story is rampantly breaching those best practices even if you don't elevate his message - just reporting on the method used is a risk.

It's one thing to report or opine on the news of the day, it's another to use charged terms like "martyr". Martyrdom is an intoxicant that has caused untold amounts of human misery, dressing violence in the language of love or selflessness is not the way.

2 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Did you read my post to the end? Because I have serious concerns about this type of protest as well and I articulated them later in the post. I think most of the rationale presented against the protest here are good arguments and that is the point of the comparison to the military. You claim that you'd be guaranteed to be getting something if you wind up sacrificing your life in combat in the military, but history is full of the graves of soldiers who believed that and whose leaders completely abused that devotion for absolutely no gain. There's no guarantee that your sacrifice would be defending your country compared to thrown away on some stupid pointless colonial expedition.

This man clearly weighs the "pros" vs "cons" differently to you, so his equation delivered a different answer. I wouldn't make either of those choices though. 

His protest was legitimate, potentially effective but also potentially forgotten in a week, and deeply problematic/concerning in what it may inspire others to do.

I did read it, I didn't respond to the end of the post because I think we agree there. And on the bolded above. That, in fact, is my chief concern. I do not want suicide celebrated or popularized in any way. I regard the social contagion risk of such an action as an accute danger.

35 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Isn't accepting the risk of sacrificing yourself for the sake of a cause you care about exactly what's going on when someone joins the military of a country?  This man had already made that choice in a way that you're all entirely ok with, he just moved it from a risk of self sacrifice to a guaranteed choice and for a cause less universally accepted.

Risk vs guarantee is a chasm of difference. When you assume such risk as a soldier you are getting something guaranteed for your service, for your possibility of death or disfigurement. This man we are discussing received nothing for his guaranteed death except this debate and others like it - that may be a fair trade to some, but not to me.

35 minutes ago, karaddin said:

 

Personally the choice to join the military seems pretty irrational to me, and while the risk of dying might be low most of the time, it's guaranteed to do harm to you/your humanity in the form of the training done to attempt to make you capable of taking the lives of the others.

 

I've been a soldier: trained to kill with guns, grenades, and my arms and legs. 

Yet I'm the one making the argument that no cause not imminent to oneself is worth suicide. Not even one life.

I beg you to rethink which of us is acting less humanely here.

51 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

But you're also saying that someone cannot be both rational and take their own life or sacrifice it for something else. I think we fundamentally disagree; people can and do often harm themselves to attempt to achieve something beyond them, and they are not acting in a disturbed or altered way or show any other sign of mental impairment. 

I get that you can think that, but I think that barring some other evidence that this person was not in full mental capacities you're simply wrong. Humans are capable of doing this and it is common enough that we have many different words for flavors of it. 

I would say that I am arguing one cannot be rational and end their life for nothing attainable. Hitler's decision to kill himself was certainly his most rational action in years, but in that circumstance he was faced with impossible options otherwise. 

Staying behind at Thermopylae, certain death, or manning a machine gun position so your comrades can make good their escape is perfectly rational, because you achieve something beyond a few arguments on book forums. 

Killing yourself rather than succumbing to an incurable and unbearable condition is rational, in its way- but precisely again because there are no better options than to die in agony.

This man had other options to try and call attention to his concern, just because they were less extreme doesn't make them impossible.

The word I apply to such extreme political protest is suicidal. And suicide is not to be condoned for the sake of spectacle.

50 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Right. And insane = mentally ill. 

 

The "or" there is key. Insane OR disturbed.

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Again, for the 3rd time, rational =/= mentally healthy, same as irrational =/= mentally ill. 

But I didn't say "mentally ill", you did. 

I said disturbed or insane. 

I've known people who were disturbed. Hell, I've been disturbed. (I had a really bad year one time, went a lil' cookoo)

Irrational is a perfect companion to such a label. And I would hope that no-one on this board would condone someone in a vulnerable mental state: irrational, insane, disturbed, mentally ill, or otherwise; to take their own life for any reason.

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Do you have info to share w/ us about the bolded? 

Yes, if you haven't heard the fellow destroyed himself. Not the actions of a rational actor.

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

 

a martyr to the cause of freedom

Words are charged with meaning, calling someone obviously disturbed or insane a martyr is suggesting that their sacrifice achieved a worthwhile aim. This man's will not.

In a world where words are recategorized as violence I struggle to see how immolation is "peaceful". 

Violence against yourself is still using violence to forward your political will.

48 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

The inhumanity on display here is disgusting. Sneering imperialists mocking and discrediting the actions of one who was willing to sacrifice himself in the name of those who are the victims of an ongoing genocide despite the fact he is not directly affected by said genocide. The inhumanity on display here is disgusting. Of course, it is the same folks who have been cheering the exact crimes against humanity that he is protesting are downplaying the legitimacy of his actions.

We are not disconnected by this either. Our tax dollars are directly going towards the murder of Palestinians.

Also if you think we are disconnected from the horrors that we are seeing, you're lying to yourself. The only reason we are able to live the lives we live is due to the exploitation and brutalization of the global south. You can blind yourself to this reality, comfort yourself with your hollow luxuries but that is just craven rationalization that allows you to not feel guilty for your excess and extravagance while other suffer to provide it to you.

Pretty good rhetoric. 

But what's inhuman to me is implicitly condoning suicide as a form of protest. Calling this man a martyr for the cause (whatever cause) is akin to encouraging others to end their lives as well. 

The thought that anyone would allow their words to lend weight to self-destruction is abhorrent. 

The west is diseased by sideline exhortations to extremism.

The repeated use of martyr concerns me. Celebration of self-destruction by unaffected parties strikes me as both entitled and cruel.

2 hours ago, Clueless Northman said:

The ludicrous part being that European countries basically have given up all of these core powers (industrial output and military tech levels), but to the US. It's as if most nations or at least political leaders across the EU prefer to let the US have that kind of power over them, rather than fellow European nations.

 

Europe is led by absolute morons, and has been for decades, or they're just too deep into wishful magical thinking. I came to that conclusion - that US is awfully unreliable - more than 20 years ago, and that's just by looking at current events. A long look at US historical record would've been enough. I mean, we go from Kennedy to Nixon, then from Carter to Reagn, than from Bush to Clinton to W. Bush, from W to Obama, and then from Obama to Trump. It's kind of obvious that every decade at least, possibly more often, you have US administrations or presidents basically looking to overturn key parts of previous policies, including foreing policies, and every time you think it' can't get worse, it actually can get worse. Any Euro leader worth a cent would know how it works and would plan accordingly - that is, seeking more autonomy if not independence from US alliance and help, in pretty much every field.

Is it not wonderful and wicked, sir? The caress of our people so sinful and soft that our provincials fancy themselves free! What a marvelous empire we are!

13 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

Dune 2 Reaction Videos on Pornhub

Goddammit I wanna click that so bad... 

Someone else do it and tell me it it's safe. Your sacrifice will be honored in my coming empire.

Wait a minute, now Valentine's Day  makes trauma!!??!!

Christ alive...

What's wrong with fridging a tomato?

Sounds like you got a criminal's fate. Rebel scum! 

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

Most important question of the SB: will Taylor Swift make it to the game?

They'll scramble F-35s and have her land inside the stadium 90 seconds before kickoff it that's what it takes.

Meanwhile, I'll pick the Niners 33-20. Lots of field goals.

I don't know, I'm just riffing. Zorral seems the most like a school counselor to me. 

8 minutes ago, DMC said:

Hm...Colts, Cowboys, Vikings.  So, the thread is group counseling?

Mrs. Zorral said you wasn't supposed to talk about that! Our feelings are our friends and our friends feel our feelings.

37 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Don't forget the shaving cream.

 

Braincase Jace, Big Bass dbunting, and Tylenol Ty run these threads! Stats Dorks gotta go the long way into the Playoffs chat, through the Home tab.

6 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

Unless he makes a dad joke and isn't actually a dad! In which case it's definitely a faux pa!

 

(I'll see myself out...)

Well now I can't change it, it's too funny. My only hope is to pretend I was being meta... that's it. I was being meta! 

7 hours ago, Toth said:

Okay, this is developing scarily quickly.

Earlier today I did the step... I asked in a local tabletop discord whether there is any group willing to adopt a (near) complete newbie. And... somehow one dude PM'd me and after everyone else agreed, it looks like I'll play a game of Star Wars Edge of the Empire on Monday. I quickly found the rule book online (heh) and since I'm (still...) reading the NJO books right now, I pretty much instantly rolled up a character based on Droma, the guy who replaced Chewie as Han's copilot.

Now I'm nervous... of course the guy who invited me asked for a voice chat just as my mother was bustling around in the background, so I got awfully quickly reminded why I put playing tabletop off "until I live on my own"... I hope I won't regret this...

Go for it dawg. Just remember you're doing this to have fun and you'll do fine.

Sernpidal's moon ain't gonna fall on ya if you make a faux pass, baby. 

1 hour ago, dbunting said:

I miss the says when all we knew was that if a receiver had 100 yards for the game he did really good. All of these metrics are a bit ridiculous to me, probably my age showing. I didn't and still don't need catch radius/separation*0.307 = DVR to tell me a receiver was good, my eyes tell me.

I say you and me shove these nerds into some lockers and skip 3rd period to smoke behind the gym shed. 

4 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Super pleased with the Michigan mass shooters mother being convicted and being held responsible.

Ive long advocated and whole heartedely agree that parents bare a responsibility when their offspring commit egregious acts.

Im perfectly fine with being held accountable were I in such shoes and hope this spreads to more such legal accountability from truancy to shoplifting and bullying.

Your kids a nuisance to society, were locking you up for being a pos parent, I absolutely embrace that, its about time.

What is... Shouting From A Balcony in Munich?

I mean, I'm down with a lot of things... but going to jail over your kid not showing up at school??

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

 

Russian demining efforts utilising the TWIG-1000 "short log".

 

 

That's fucking horrible! That poor poor guy. Fuck.

14 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Prohibition commandments!

The King:  "Lo and obey, thine kingdom! From sea to sea shall be a world for me unrabbled by thee!"

The Lealists:   

The Rabble:    "From yonder seat mine king, a better song should sing!" 

14 hours ago, Zorral said:

It's being talked of and reported on everywhere else, just not here.

12 hours ago, Altherion said:

To be fair, the US media is covering the escalation in considerable detail (I linked to it a few pages back) and people I've spoken to in real life are aware of this. It's only this thread on this board that for some reason appears to be obsessed with the various trials of Trump and other Trump related material to the point where few other things get discussed for more than a few posts.

Maybe it's just my own little circles I'm observing, then. My fam doesn't care, none of my friends even seem aware... I brought up the deaths of Americans in a discord (where my pals were playing a war game) and there was no reaction at all.