The Weirwoods Eyes

This is gorgeously written and reminds me why I liked the DG books so much. This is a wonderfully romantic descriptor of how fiercely the heart can burn for someone. I love it! Yes the moment I read the about the Hope chest in The Skin Trade it set bells ringing. I'd clocked that the Cedar Chest Sansa places the cloak in could be a Hope chest symbolically already and you will recall I'd been saying so for years. But when I read the skin trade and he had a hope chest specifically and told us as readers what one is and what they were used for I knew I'd been right! Being British I'd not realised how ubiquitous they once were in the states, so wasn't certain that GRRM would be familiar enough with them for the use of a Cedar chest to really be as symbolic as I thought. Now I am 100% certain. And when you examine The Skin Trade it too is the beginning of a Beauty & the Beast story. As it was originally the first of an intended series of stories and without giving spoilers I will point out we have a beast (he's a werewolf.) who is into the beauty, but she isn't into him. This is the set up for a beauty & the beast story. As is SanSan. GRRM & DG give nods to and borrow from one another quite a bit if you look closely at both bodies of work. I know they are friends. So I feel this is likely deliberate. Little nods to each other and what not. Jamie's mother and father eloped and hid out until she was visibly pregnant. This was indeed quite common historically. Rhaegar & Lyanna were likely doing the same thing initially until Aerys fucked it all up by burning Brandon& Rickard. DG has a baby inherit land and property despite very obviously not being the daughter of the man it belonged to simply because legally she is his heir as her mother was married to him. Asha is probably pregnant and is officially married to Erik Ironmaker and Theon can not produce his own heir. So it is likely her child will inherit the iron islands despite being rather obviously not her husbands kid. ie: a bastard should not inherit but as they will "officially" be legitimate due to her marriage they can. If we look at the Iron Islands history too in TWOIAF there is a similar situation with an uncle having his nephew ( I think) inherit the driftwood crown as he has not had any children of his own. And of course DG named the plantation of Aunt Jocasta Riverrun. Just some little thoughts and observations. No real point other than that I like those little easter egg type things.

Thank you very much. Always nice to meet a fellow BFC.

Thank you for this Le Cygne, You have provided a really good summary of the way SanSan follows B&TB. Their story parallels it so much and given GRRM's well-publicised love of the story I'd say that the chances of this being a coincidence are zero! GRRM has also shown in his back catalogue that he is well versed in romantic fiction and the themes, symbolism, & motifs used in that genre. He's explored romance over and over in his work, so the fact that ASOIAF contains various romances too seems obvious. But of course, we all know how reluctant to acknowledge this many fans are. SanSan is imo one of the strongest romances in ASOIAF. The story flows throughout the entire book series and involves one of the most prominent POV characters. Which indicates that this is an important sub-story within the overall narrative. The idea of dismissing this seems absurd to me. I love how you point out the symbolism of the bloody white cloak, the fact that she dons his cloak herself pointing to the importance of autonomy in her story, and the cedar chest mirroring a hope chest. I know I mentioned this already but it struck me in one of his short stories that he includes a cedar hope chest, revealing that he absolutely knows the symbolism in having her place his cloak in one! The story he uses a hope chest in is also a sort of B&TB story, though as it is planned as a first in a series of shorts the beast fancies the beauty but she does not reciprocate, one is left wondering had he continued this tale would she have eventually fallen for our werewolf hero in this noirish take on the B&TB story? I think so. Sansa's story is so wrapped up in marriage, love, and autonomy. The logical conclusion for her is marriage to a lover of her own choosing. And right from the start, the Hound has been set up to be her choice.

Pretty sure I've said more than enough to prove my point. No need to add anything else because you clearly have nothing at all to counter my argument with other than asking for quotes. Which I have explained i'm not doing right now. As I have got an actual life & I know full well that you are as well versed in her chapters as any of us and know full well to what I am referring.    To claim that a person can go from declaring one thing in their head to doing things which directly go against that assertion, without having given the matter any consideration is just ridiculous. 

    I really do think I have provided enough to prove my point. I'd like you to disprove it, using text and logical reasoning. As realistically if you truly believe that a person can think in one chapter how she doesn't ever want to marry again, but in the next be working towards a plan which includes marriage and NOT have thought about it in between then you must seriously lack in reading comprehension and reasoning skills, and I don't think that you truly do.    It is evident from her internal thoughts what her goals are. To be herself again, to be loved for herself and return to winterfell.    I'm not someone who has an E reader so searching through all of her chapters and pulling every single quote would take me all day. possibly two days and it is the summer holidays and I have three kids at home, dinner to make, laundry to do ect. So no I shall not be indulging your request. because I don't believe you truly do not grasp that she wants those things. As Anyone with the most basic grasp on literature and human nature can ascertain her desires from reading her chapters themselves. I doubt very much you truly need hand holding all the way through her chapters in order to grasp that. 

Are you being deliberately obtuse here. In one chapter we have her thinking about her desires with regard to mariage. In many chapters we have her thinking about her desires in regard to going home and having her true name back, In this chapter we have her going along with a plan which achieves the latter of those goals. Therefore she must have thought about it and have been willing to sacrifice goal number one in order to achieve goal number two.   sansa's head is not despite your insistence, a vacuum. filled with bunnies and fluffy clouds. She frequently demonstrates her acumen.    she tells us she has goal number one, and goal number two, and then we see her seemingly sacrificing goal number one to get to goal number two. in what part of that isn't blatantly obvious that some form of consideration must have taken place off screen so to speak?   As to Robert Arryn. She hasn't given us any real clues as to how she feels about LF's assumption that he will die. But certainly in her internal thoughts she seems to think he will one day have a wife. Which rather indicates that she does not expect him to die, and as she has contrived to have the boy protected 24/7 by an elite guard I'd say she isn't on board with LF's plan entirely. Now untill we see her actions or read her thoughts further on the matter I'd be reluctant to jump to any conclusion, as unlike in my own example. The possibillities are varied. With my own example either you realise a rather clear and obvious thought process has taken place for Sansa where she has decided to compromise goal one for goal two. Or you take the stance that she is a blithering imbecile who can not process information nor grasp the outcome of LF's plans. Now given that she is very clearly not the latter I'd say we have a conclusion. Where as with SR, well she either 1: Knows deep down the child will die naturally and is just trying to ensure he is less afraid during life. But then we have to wonder why she thinks of him having a wife? 2:  She is on board with killing him as part of the plan, but again why would she contrive a plan to have him guarded and why think of him having a wife? 3: she is an utter idiot who can't grasp the basic elements of LF's plan and is just floating along on her little fluffy cloud petting her bunnies. 4: she is aware of the plan, but feels she has some method by which to subvert it, her thinking of him one day having a wife and contriving an elite guard for him, in this scenario makes perfect sense.   But as I said I don't feel yet there is quite enough information with which to make that call as to which scenario is going on here. 

  On what are you basing this assumption?    I'd say we have evidence that she has clearly thought about LF's plan and if it suits her. After all we had her internal thoughts in AFFC where she was thinking no way I am never re marrying unless it is on my own terms. But then we se her seemingly working towards marrying Harry. Are you trying to say that despite thinking the opposite she has naturally, instinctively without ever really stopping to consider and decide what she wants, followed LF's plan to marry him?    because to me the two things are impossible to reconcile without the logical assumption that sansa has thought about what she wants and decided that LF's current plan suits her desires and that the most likelihood of success lies in following his plan for now. 

Chrisdaw, what you miss is the fact that we all learn from our peers and our tutors and that is how human development tends to work. People make the mistake of forgetting that Sansa is a an adolescent, still learning, and yes she is beginning to self determine.    1: she is thinking about how people only want her for her claim and has asserted that she will not marry again for anything less than love/her own advantage.  now we see her in Alayne I seemingly wooing Harry for the express purpose of marrying him as LF has told her. But in reality we do not know what her intentions are as yet and the fact she previously thought internally that she won't be simply used tells us that things are not as simple as her blindly following his instruction.    2: She is self aware, she knows that the Lemon cake Giants lance is for HER, she knows the effect she has upon the males around her and she knows how sweet Robin feels about her. And she knows why she is valuable to so many beyond her looks as well. And she knows how she feels about all these things.    3: People assume her skill with harry at the dance is ALL LF's instruction but we have been shown Sansa's ability to charm and manipulate men of her own volition many times in the books, and indeed she does it in this very chapter, well before LF tells her how, In the courtyard. LF thinks he is schooling her but she is simply allowing his ego to be inflated by playing dumb for him. We know this by the fact she does not in fact follow his every instruction, she refrains from inviting Harry out onto the balcony. And the way she has done the same witty flirtation with other characters of her own volition before. And how she goes way beyond LF's suggestions and adds some Spice ;) into the conversation. She is able to judge what drives Harry's ego and his libido, and use that to play him way better than LF's initial suggestions. The fact she played dumb for LF when we know she is fully aware of how to flirt tells us she plays him too. Which is again confirmed in her smug knowledge that the lemon cake is for her.    4: Following LF's plan is currently in line with what she herself wants, so why not go along with his plan so long as it suits her own desires? only an idiot would refuse help from an expert in achieving ones goals? Sansa wants her name back, she wants to return to the North and she wants Winterfell restored under the Stark banners. LF has promised her all of this and laid out a plan for her to achieve it. Her following the plan does not exclude her self determining her destiny. The very fact we have a ton of foreshadowing that sansa will destroy LF tells us the likely hood is high that she is going to go her own way once he is no longer useful to her.      See this is where I have a problem with your assessment of sansa. So anyone who has ever received lessons in something from a teacher is incapable of self determining? How does that work?  Say i take riding lessons, and I become very good, and I chose to enter a gymkhana, and I win some ribbons, who deserves the honour for those wins? me or my teacher? of course it is me. i was the one who decided to enter and it was my skill which won the ribbons. Of course my teacher will be proud and say I taught her.  But that in no way makes my win theirs. and it in no way means I was merely doing as I was taught without any self determined direction in the way in which I performed.    You see, you speak as though a student is never and can never be more than what they were taught. If this is the case how do we ever make advancements in any field? Surely is Sansa can never take credit for anything herself due to having once had a tutor then no one else can at all either. What is your profession? Do you feel you are just performing the things you were taught by your supervisor or tutor in university? ect. Or do you feel you deserve recognition for the things which you have achieved? 

One thing that I feel has to be taken into account is that whilst GRRM uses history and historical figures to inspire many aspects of his characters, he very rarely takes that inspiration to the degree where the character directly and fully mirrors the historical figure.  Whilst Sansa has undeniably got some elements of Elizabeth I in her story I doubt very much she will directly and faithfully correspond with that monarch.    When looking at  a characters future one has to look at all aspects of the story, what has the character experienced so far, where did they start out, what do the things they have experienced when taking that characters starting point indicate for their future.  What historical events and figures could the author be utilising for inspiration for this character? and what folk tales and fairy stories seem to be at play in their story. All of these things need to be looked at when deciding where you think the story will go.    In regard to Sansa it seems to me that there are various strong themes running throughout her story. Non of which are served by her having been raped during the blackwater.    In regard to building a theory for her future one has to look to the text, and not just a couple of paragraphs but the entire body. When you do that several themes come to the fore for Sansa.   1: her personal growth from malleable compliant willing female within a patriarchal society to independent thinking and self determining young woman determined to use the world to her advantage not be used.    2: her relationship with sandor which mirrors in many ways beauty and the beast, but which GRRM is utilising in a way which reflects the other aspects of Sansa's story. As opposed to it merely being about the beauty falling for the beast despite his beastliness.    3: her relationship with her sister, Arya. This is a subtle theme within her story as most people simply assume she doesn't care for her very much given their early on conflict. But in this chapter and others we see Sansa reflecting upon her play with Arya (and Jeyne who is also an important factor within Sansa's story.) reflecting on her little sister trying to keep up. I think personally that the sisters relationship will be a part of both their future's and not in the violent conflicted way that most people seem to think.

Yea I decided for the good of my health not to look at that thread. I saw one ot two posts and thought. No Don't go there. Needless to say some very predictable posters where there jumping through hoops to "prove" Sansa is as dumb as a box of chocolates. Just look how quickly people started saying the Tourney was probably LF's idea and that he subtly put it in her head. The chapter makes it very clear this was Sansa's idea and Sansa's character history tells us this is an idea that she could feasibly come up with. She knows what motivates SR because she was once motivated by the same stuff, gallantry, knights, tourneys, stories and dreams. Hence why she calls him a little fool in her head, because she now knows such dreams are folly. But she knew how to help SR and the Winged guard decided by a grand tourney is straight out of the hiSTORY books as it is what Visenya did when she created the KG. BTW an interesting this to note here is Sansa taking on the role of Visenya who was the real power behind the IT and who basically was the ruler of the 7 kingdoms. Aegon did not do anywhere near as much as she did in regards to the ruling of Westeros. I'm not saying Sansa becomes Visenya I'm saying that we can maybe take a clue that she will be the power behind the ruler in the Vale. As we see she is rapidly becoming the person SR relies upon.

If you read the lengths some people will go to to refute Sansa as having anything in her head other than candy floss you'd realise why he chose to beat us over the head with Look how clever Sansa is in this chapter, And yet some still vehemently deny her intelligence.

How does Sansa's skills being in the area of politics exclude her from The North? All I'm hearing is sansa is too Southern to ever go back to WF. Which is absolute :bs:

I see her going North she expresses a constant desire to return to Winterfell. Winter makes travel difficult for sure, but I doubt impossible. There are still boats sailing, they could sail from Gulltown to White harbour, and then travel overland. Travel being difficult doesn't mean it is impossible. And moving an Army is much harder than moving a mid sized party of people. I don't think her returning South is at all a likely idea, she desperately wants to go home. ETA: I think Stannis dies.

I think that she is warming to him, I wouldn't say falling for, there is nothing to indicate she feels remotely romantic towards him. Men & women can be platonic. But he is falling for her, well he desires her. Not sure if he will ever love her, he seems more the obsessive possessive type. And his feelings for her is what will get him killed imo because whilst Sasna is seeing him more as Peytr & less as Littlefinger she isn't displaying any return of those feelings. And she is still wary of him, even if that wariness has dropped a lot. Besides I think her asking him how to flirt indicates that she is starting to play him a bit. Because this girl knows how to flirt, she's just been doing it out in the yard. The more he opens up to her, the closer he lets her is, the easier it is for her to bring him down. IMO for her to kill him she needs to a; want to, and we all know there are certain pieces of information that if she discovered would give her that motive. & b; she has to have the power to do it. So either a fit of passion ie: self defense. I don't rule it out. But I feel the higher probability is it playing out like the foreshadowing in the snowcastle scene. For which she has to be in a political position of power to have him arrested and be able to pass judgement on him. At which point his neck is on the block. But in order for her to get to that position where she can arrest him, pass judgement and swing the sword, she needs him. So I think she and he are in it together for the time being. I don't think that means any sort of romance between them and I see nothing in her character which hints that she would.

I agree with quite a lot of what you have said here. And laughed my arse off at your comment re Apophenia. I felt the same way whilst reading Mithras's post And I read it twice because I thought maybe it was just me who couldn't see how the dots connected. I agree Sansa is a Protagonist, and she is on a journey, and that she is learning the safer position is to be the power behind the throne, not sitting the throne yourself. I agree that she is staying with LF for the time being, and has much to learn still, before surpassing him. I believe she will kill him. I believe she will join with her siblings and avenge the Starks, that her role in the story is as the political manipulator for team Stark. I am however a Sansan, but I think you seem to believe something which in my experience discussing sanSan the majority of people just don't think/feel. I have not met anyone yet who thinks the story in relation to them is her finding a "boyfriend protector" and sticking with him living happily ever after. Most people see it as a part of Sansa's journey, that she moves from placidly accepting whatever man her family choose for her, finding beauty in him no matter what (she has mentioned Septa Mordane's advice on this more than once.) believing that she has to alter herself, that she is responsible for the success of her marriage that it is her place to pander to the man, and suppress herself in order to please him. And progressing past that to a woman who makes her own choice as to who to be with, and wishes to be loved for herself, changing to the kind of person who insists upon not changing for a man. And that her falling in love with sandor Clegane is that journey. He is not a man her family would chose, he is not socially acceptable, he doesn't want her to pander to him, he wants her to look out for her own self, he implores her in KL to open her eyes. The story is a lovely take on Beauty & the Beast, but also a fantastic story of female empowerment, choosing Sandor is a triumph now do SanSan's think it will be a perfect story of a happy ending? No most think that they will be sexually together, and that beyond that there are several possibilities. One that they wed and he simply is cool with having a socially more prestigious wife. This has happened in book and there is no reason to feel he wouldn't be cool with that. he doesn't value status for himself at all. In which case maybe they are happy and so what if they are? another possibility is they don't marry but he is her sworn shield Breakbones to her Rhaenyra. And the last option is that they fuck and confirm their love and then he dies. I think the main mistake people make when laughing at the SanSan's is they think we all are sat swooning and wishing for a mills & boon ending. Nope. Most are like me, they see the story, and don't deny the attraction. SanSan isn't some random fantasy ship, like SanGon, or Sandric, or any of the other textually unfounded ships folk make up. The relationship between these two characters is in the text, we see his growing infatuation with her from the moment they meet, we see her slowly growing to trust him, to overcome his scars, to see the man within, to want to gentle his heart, and this is B&tB in a nutshell, is it not? and GRRM has said how much he loves that story. Sandor leaves KL, and attempts to take her with him, but her story requires her to end up with her tutor LF, so the author makes a reason for her to turn down the offer, the Tyrell marriage, she thinks there is a safer route out on the horizon, she also has dontos promising her an out. Why risk simply making a run for it in the midst of battle, when there seems to be a safer route out, And at this point she has not realised her feelings for him. But the author makes it clear that this story isn't over it's just on the back burner, he writes her recalling a Kiss, and repeatedly fantasising about that false memory, she wants to scandalise the other maids by telling them, she keeps his cloak, she thinks of him repeatedly and dreams of him in her bed. He talks about her over and again, and loses his shit when he finds out she was married to tyrion, he is thinking of her in his dying breath, or so it seems, the blustering cries of rape and heart ripping out is just typical Sandor bravado, he uses his roughness as a shield, for his broken heart, He is saying this is ripping my heart out when he says that. The romance is in the story, not in the readers heads. This is why people ship them, because the author is shipping them. The people who acknowledge that aspect of the story aren't sitting by a window gazing wet eyed into the distance dreaming of him riding up on a white charger and sweeping her up to safety (though you will note that GRRM had him do just that during the riots.) we are simply reading the book. I hope that seeing as much of how we both view sansa's story is similar that discussion can be enriching. I know I appreciate it when I read another poster who isn't freaking out about her going along with LF's plans and wishing for her to instantly get away from him. because I see that this is her story, she is by LF's side in order to learn. I have every faith that this does not indicate she will be "darthsansa" in the long run, loosing her morality and warping into a cold blooded monster. It just means she has shit to learn from him.....for now.

I was going to make that point earlier. :) I doubt very much the Lannisters still have the IT when dany shows up. Also Jaime last we saw him was burning Cersei's plea letter and more interested in going with Brienne to find Sansa himself. I don't see anything in text to indicate he would take a position as Hand. He seems most invested in putting write his lost honour.

I'm sorry I've read it through twice and I just don't see anything in there that makes a lick of sense. besides the idea which is widely accepted and has weight that Jaime kills cersei. But even that is disputable. Anyway I think perhaps you misunderstood what I was asking you to share. So I'll try and be more clear. Sorry if I was not before. I was asking you what in the text so far has influenced how you view Sansa's role in the books, her own personal journey. Not what you think will happen, I get that you are basing your predictions on what you see as foreshadowing, And I applaud that because so many don't even take the text into account and just go on what they would like to see. But I happen as you probably know from my posts to disagree with most all of what you've felt is foreshadowing. I'd love to get a more clear idea of how you came to these conclusions, because I'll be honest non of it makes any sense to me. So really I guess what I was hoping to understand is what in the story so far has influenced your comprehension of sansa's individual journey and her role in the story. Because it seems to me that you see her simply as a useless maiden who needs rescuing all the time, and her role is just to get passed around between one baddy and another hoping to be rescued. Which I guess is the exact opposite of how I and a lot of others have understood it. I mean I am not on board with Queen in the North, tbh I don't see her as Queen, though I will cheer those who do, because, well i prefer that idea to a lot of the others that folk have about her. But no I don't see her as a ruler, not long term, though I do think she'll restore WF and be in charge there for a short time, long enough to reenact the snowcastle scene for real. But I see her role in team stark as more the background political manipulator, the woman with a plan. I Feel it is very evident in the story as we currently know it that she has gone from sheltered dreamer, believer in fairy tales & content with her societies role for her, to a woman who is very wary, who is slowly learning how to play the game, and use her natural skills (perceptiveness & flattery to name just two.) to play those around her in order to gain what she desires. Which is restoration of her name & her home, her family. That she is the antithesis of the princesses as prizes trope, that though she was literally placed as a captive in a tower (twice) she ultimately will get herself out of that predicament. And she has/is doing so. She chose to meet the mysterious note leaver in the godswood taking a knife with intent to use it if she must, she accepted the Willas plan, she ran when the time came to do so, and so got out of KL. Now LF has her and she is once again a captive, though her situation is no longer as precarious, and she is learning from him and working towards her freedom with him. They have differing goals, but she is actively participating once again in freeing herself. She is choosing her path, as much as she is able to in the circumstances. I see her story as a coming of age which is basically all the kids stories, this is an intergenerational epic centering around 5 children growing up. Coming of age is about achieving independence. And Sansa's story is about this too, first wanting it, then being denied it in the extreme, then moving towards it and finally taking it for herself. Where is the point in a story about a girl who is used abused and subjugated continually and has to be rescued by her more masculine presenting little sister? What is that story telling the reader? and why on earth would GRRM chose to tell such a tale?

As for that line "You're such a little fool." I read that as Sansa berating her former self. Who was such a little fool to believe in happy endings. Which KL cured her of. She no longer dreams of one true love and gallant knights and fair maids. But Robert does. She is reminded of her former self (who was 11, as Robert is now 8, it is very much a childish belief in fairy tale endings.) And the beration is to herself, for ever having believed.

Can you please explain how you see her story then? And why? As in, what is there in the actual text to support your reading of her particular arc.

I have to agree that Sansa being returned to KL makes no sense narratively at all, so If Shadrach is intending on abducting her, he will obviously fail. There is just no story for her in KL. Her future lies in the North. It is clear that she will be the one to kill LF and I think personally that the Snowcastle scene is direct foreshadowing. IE: She'll remove his head at Winterfell and mount it on a spike. So her going anywhere south just doesn't make sense to me. Not when her story arc is about gaining agency, learning how to play the game, using information to her advantage & becoming powerful in her own right. Being at the Mercy of Cersei, and frankly dead on arrival if she ever got her hands on Sansa again, is a dead end thematically. Again work with what is in the text, She is more confident, has built relationships in the Vale, wants to go along with LF's plan because she wants to return North, but doesn't fully trust him, is aware that he desires her and is beginning to use that to her advantage, She is developing her own ideas, and managing SR whom she does not want to kill, but she doesn't seem to yet grasp that LF intends to have the boy die, the dots are not connected yet. We also know from this chapter that She is ever more beautiful, that many men desire her, that Harry is falling into that camp, that Randa also wants harry, that Randa may be forced into another marriage she doesn't want, that there will be a winged guard, that Lyn Corbray is not for certain loyal, but has exceptional martial prowess, and that Shadrach probably knows who she is and may enter the melee, where it looks as if Lyn will be the victor, given his skill at arms. We also know LF has displayed largesse, and distributed daggers, is flattering Harry, and probably rigging the lists so the heir wins a place on the winged guard. We know Sansa whilst following LF's direction has lines she won't cross and wants to make sure the relationship happens on her terms. And that she is well aware that her husband lives and so the marriage is not imminent. Nothing in here indicates any of the absurd suggestions being made, the only thing which can be speculated on is Ser Shadrich, who may try to abduct her, based on what he said to Brienne and the bag of dragons comment. But as has been pointed out, her story needs to move forwards not back. And her returning to KL is pointless. I would buy the possibility of him taking her forcibly to Varys (because she has absolutely no reason at all to go with him voluntarily) if not for the fact it does not tie in with the themes in her character arc. Which is mainly breaking away from the idea of princesses in towers helplessly awaiting rescue and swooning at the feet her handsome hero prince/dutifully wedding the hero. Sansa is the antithesis of the princesses as prizes trope, so abducting her in order to have her given to Aegon Targaryen like some fairground prize is the wrong direction to assume her character is going. Maybe just maybe he takes her to Varys and she outwits him and escapes. But where would that leave our snowcastle prophecy? No she is remaining with LF for the time being, and will be slaying her own savage giant, rather than screaming with delicate femininity whilst her knight in shining armour wins the day.

:lmao: And then the Aliens land.

Ah yes, that Thread. My god did that get on my tits!! I dunno I'm not a mod. But as far as I'm concerned I don't want to discuss the show so I stay off the show forum, and I appreciate that the forum rules state to keep it separate.

Now come on.... seriously :P

No It is a rule of the forum, show discussion happens in show threads, book discussion happens in book threads. Calling a person who doesn't wish to discuss the show in relation to the books, and has pointed out valid reasons why it is not really helpful to attempt to do so immature is name calling. People have every right to dislike the show, people can be very imaginative and not like what D&D have done. It is a matter of differing tastes. I would appreciate it if you showed more respect for differing views.

Completely agree. And I don't think discussing it outside of the show segment of the forum is remotely productive.