Lord over Seas

Though I still disagree with your opinion about the series, we can both agree on the usefulness of having an interesting conversation. (Now i look like Ned Flanders)

You don't seem to understand where most critics are pointing. The least people that argue against the show last episodes do it because of the changes from the book. Most of the people don't mind if there's some changes if they're useful to the development of the characters. One of the greatest things in ASOIAF is the character depth and development. Every single character, with or without a POV is presented with complexity, which after all shows it's humanity. Even through the relationships between characters it is noticeable. A clear example is the Arya-the Hound storyline. And in this week's episode, we saw another chapter of it, which was mostly new (not appearing in the books) And though it was new, it was creative and supported Arya's inner evolution and the Hound's reaction to it. And most commenters liked it. The only critic I could imagine against this storyline in the series is, that the Hound isn't shown in all it's depression and his fears. But with such a short time for every episode it's hard to do, and I understand it. The main problem most critics have with the series, me amongst them, is that some changes made from the book totally turn around the characters, making them incoherent, or even worse, filling them with cliché treats of typical tv characters, making them simply plain and without any personality. Such is the case of Tyrion, Jon, and in this episode Asha. Their reactions in certain situations seem out of point and speaks against how they are in the books. Tyrion has turned out to be a moral, misunderstood and mistreated Hero, without any other flaw than being born a Imp. Jon was supposed to be as cold and silent as Ned, even in extreme situations, but in the series we only see him in forced dramatic scenes struggeling with his love and duty sense. How is he even supposed to become LC when the only thing we get from him is how heroic he is by sacrificing his love and his health for the NW? And Asha is even worse: after decades without seeing his brother, she meets him and despises him for his way to be. And suddenly she loves him so much she's on a suicide mission to rescue him? So much for the heir to the Iron Islands and her political/feminist aspirations. (I remind you to AFFC if you can't remember) The critics go in the way that, it seems that D&D have lost the way to the characters, or they simply do not understand and feel them as deep and complex as they are, but only as TV products to be put on forced dramatic situations to please the spectator. IMO that's the point of the series getting more and more criticism.

I'm sorry but i don't agree at all with you. The show is supposed to be an adaptation of the books for a much wider audience. And it's done by such a large and famous producer as HBO is. This means we should not expect of it to be a filling entertainment, but an artistic and cinematic recreation somehow on the same quality levels that the books hold. And this season's ending seem pretty low-gone if people have to argue, like you, that it's a filler or that as a season finale, it's not expected to be as intense as in the books. This just goes to explain how the show has treasoned it's values and objectives, IMO. Through it's many changes in figures, situations and storylines it seems that it has left aside it's role as a representation of the books, to try to evolve to a single entity by itself. Yet the impact and plot climaxes of it's story are totally based on the book, without any changes (and missed IMO) That leaves the changes introduced in the series to mere fillers. And don't misunderstand me: some changes have been made and work good IMO. For example Arya's personal evolution, though a bit forgotten, has been worked out pretty well with it's changes, to it's climax in this episode. The changes that annoy me and make me feel like the series lost it's base are the ones that exaggerate the book's storyline to introduce forced events and situation, which mostly result in chliché scenes and confusing character's development. The whole drama-love scene between Ygritte and Jon, with it's tragic ending (Ygritte hurting Jon with 3 arrows while crying) seemed so forced and unrealistic in terms of geography (how did Ygritte find Jon?) and character that, as I said before, I first thought it was a dream of Jon. And it's only an example. I don't have any problem with the series growing apart from the books, but IMO D&D have lost their way, and ly now between trying to folllow the plots with more impact in the books and making so many and so large changes to introduce the typical tv-series topics into the whole storyline that the characters seem hanging between both sides, making them pretty blurred out. Maybe it's my own fault to get disappointed, for expecting something close to the greatness of The Wire and The Sopranos, but the first season proved me about right: the show can come close to HBO's greatest series, IMO, it depends on D&D to find their own way between TV and books. (As they did in the first season)

This season started good and has been in a downfall since it's middle, IMO. This episode is no exception: Tyrion is still a misunderstood hero, without any flaw. And now Sansa suddenly starts to like him? Sounds like cheesy love story preceding tragic ending we all now. Jon being shot 3 times by Ygritte after a 'tragic' and anticlimatic conversation. How the hell did she even find him after he escaped? And she did without the other wildlings, even without Tormund? The writers have been shoveling this relationship down our throats so much this season, at first I was expecting this whole scene to be some kind of Jon's nightmare. Suddenly Yara loves Theon. Where did she get the time to do that? Way too forced for the character. They've met only a couple of times, and she turned from mocking him and despising him, to risk her life and sail around the Narrow Sea to get to him. (Weiss and Benioff suck at Westerosi geography) Cersei talking again with Tyrion about how much she loves her children, even Joffrey. It seems the series is in an open campaign to save her from the spectator's hate. And it just turns out to be so forced and stupid. How would she even come close to confess to her hated brother Tyrion that she tried to suicide? Even after having shown him all her hatred last season for sendin Myrcella away? Such a blurred out character it is painful. Stannis is getting more and more confusing. And he's not bad acted. I like how Dillane portraits him. But the script is so awfully bad for him. It seems they (the writers) change the storyline to put him more as a psychopath with a greed for power than anything else. Jaime returning back and not f*cking Cersei. Or raping her, the scene in the books was too ambiguous. But here he just appears and stares at her like a sad puppy. Poor, poor misunderstood hero. Here we got Tyrion 2. Dany's masses' bath. Nothing to say here, the scene speaks for itself. Still there were some scenes i really liked. Bolton and Frey's conversation was really good made, and most of all, brilliantly acted. Bran's group meeting with Sam was a good scene too, though it was a bit forced how Sam let them just simply go after what he'd seen out there. And Arya's killing rage scene i liked too, i love how she's being depicted in her inside hatred and emotional death- evolution, though i hope this doesn't mean there won't be any Inn killing scene. And last but not least, Charles Dance. One of the main reasons to watch this series. His only presence just make his scenes qet higher and higher in quality, where a lesser actor could have made it all trumble. His composure, subtle movements and the tone of his speaking, just everything fits perfectly into his character. It seems that Dance has understood the character way better than Weiss and Benioff. While they seem to try to make him look some kind of un-active and comic (gay relationships, not giving Joffrey a lesson, etc.) , Chance shows Tywin's real power through his subtleness. In general, I hope next season gets better through the positive aspects (which are a lot actually) it has shown here. This season lets me a bit disappointed.

Totally agree there with you. So many details they forgot which could have set the atmosphere to a great point. (Edmure's wife crying during the whole wedding is the first that comes to my mind) Also, whatever happened to Greatjon Umber? I miss his him. It seems the writers thought it's the same character as BlackFish and saved some coin, but it seems pretty annoying to me to leave out such a great character (and so important in the RW IMO) On the other hand, Daenerys' scenes where well made, as always. Even having changed the conquest of Yunkai (I miss Belwas too), i like the way they're depicting the growing attraction between the mother of dragons and Daario, and Jorah's implication, though i think they could make it a little more subtle. They risk to transform this into a Sitcom love story (like Robb with Talysa... i'm glad she finally died), where it should be all about hidden and repressed attractions. And everything seems to be going fine in the north. I like it how they ended the Bran-Osha group, though Bran's telechinesis abilities seem to have appeared all of a sudden (mainly fault of the previous episodes) Jon's desertion seems a bit hastily made for what i had expected from the previous episodes. I never really liked how his relationship was depicted in the series, but in the last 2 episodes there was a build up growing in intensity between him and the wildling girl and when i saw the quick fighting and escaping it just felt somewhat anticlimatic. 8/10 IMO, i liked it in general, leaving appart some flaws.

And still he acts and believes he's the rightfull king. It still seems to me as a scriptwriter's fatal mistake.

I don't buy it. If Joffrey knows he's a Lannister, he can't believe he's the rightfull king and thus he can't act like he was. And if he sais that because his mother is a Lannister, it still makes no sense, because the child Sansa would have after his rape would be a Baratheon, like he himself believes he is, not a Lannister. It's still a horrible mistake.

I'd give it a 7. The beginning i found great, but IMO it went quickly down at the middle of the episode, specially in King's Landing scenes. The 2 things i disliked the most: Changes in charachters, making them seem totally void: Cersei openly menacing Margaery makes her just makes her over paranoid, and possibly destroys the whole future secret plots she creates against the Tyrells. Tyrion still is the 'perfect' hero. And Sansa too. All their flaws have been deleted, making this two charachters pretty plain, and mostly whiny. Free nude scene for Mel. Again making the viewer watch unwanted porn just for it's own sake. The whole episode was pretty good though, the last scenes just made it go up again. Except for this moment: Joffrey telling Sansa soon she's going to have a Lannister in her, so it doesn't matter which Lannister f*cks her. (Implying it's going to be him who rapes her) What the f*ck!? That's the worst mistake i could imagine in the whole series... how come he knows that he's a Lannister? Scriptwriters seem to haven't read the books.

This. So much this.

I guess they did it to make the scene more dramatic: It's more epic to say Gendry's father was the ruler of such a Castle, than just telling him somewhere else. And the impact this new has in Gendry is greater i think, since this way he sees the city he's always lived from a different point of view. (That of a prince)

Character dramatisation is needed to their expansion I agree, but i think the writers have lost it along the way. I mean, if you watch the first 2 episodes of the first season and compare them to the last 2 ones, you'll notice the change. I think the show has lost it's subtlety in characterisation. My problem with this is that i can't stand overdramatisation, as has been showed here. Ned and Cat didn't even tell each other how they loved him/her as much as characters now do, you could tell the hatred of Cat towards Jon only by her looks (and how she tells him to go away and leave comaBran in that magnificent scene) And you could even see how Jon feels like an outsider there by the way how his 'stepbrothers' treated him.There's no need to state all the time how somebody loves someone, or as Orell does, tell Ygritte that John isn't one of them. I don't know, it's only my opinion, but i like much more the subtlety, and the feelings behind the action the show had before than this overt love-expressions there are now.

If you actually read the comments well (leaving your hatred aside) you would wonder how all the people you complain about are just saddened at how the characters are being build, at how the dialogues just make no sense or are underdeveloped to them. Black Fish talking about wet shit and Tyrion crying all day long about his love seem well done to you?

It has been said that the show's greatest flaw is losing the subtility of the characters and events from the book. I totally agree with this point. They're so filling up the show with cliche's that they're losing parts of the story and characters: Tyrion just whines about everything and looks childish. But of course he has no flaws, he has to be our obvious hero caught between duty and love. And Shae feels betrayed. She always does, She only complains to poor Tyrion. Seriously, how could he fall in love with her?. Good thing there's Bronn around. Jon scenes; even more cliches: i love you, but you have to trust me and leave your people...but i love you more, and Jon is not the right one for you, i am. Dramatic intent, fails hard IMO. Ygritte's and Jon's relationship was left aside a lot in the books, but i still don't believe that both are in love by what we've been shown. Tormund trying to be funny, doesn't mention his enormous d*ck. Tywin doesn't even look as scary and cool headed this last two episodes as his renown tells about him. Even his coward grandchild Joffrey dares to discuss with him. This scene could have been done so much better. And why talk about Dany and not talk about the war?. I feel like since Tywin arrived to KL he has done nothing more about the war which is going on. There are Northmen in Harrenhall and he just talks and talks with Olenna about gay relationships and with Joffrey about dragons. He's supposed to be the hand of the king... Sansa and Margaery talking about sex: another filler which doesn't do any right to the characters. Seriously, now it's supposed to mean that Margaery is some kind of nympho? Are the Tyrells all perverts or what? (from Westeros point of view) Theon's torture...nothing much to say about that. Producers obviously like porn and violence, so why not mix them both? It would have been so much better if they showed us how he disappears in Bolton's torture chambers and then reappeared in the next season all psichologically and physically destroyed, leaving all that happened to our imagination. Mel and Gendry and her revelation. Just a scene that tries to bring some epicness into the story: dramatic music, cool special effects and so on. All this for such a little talk? When i watched it i thought it was ridiculous Robb and the Tarlys marching north. I seriously think they are destroying both Black Fish and Edmure's characters. One looks like a big bully, the other like Cat's stupid brother. And Talisa is now pregnant? Robb is going to meet her parents at Volantis? Why does it sound like they're trying to put up some drama but fail epicly? And leaving the deepest and most dramatic figure (Cat) of the group aside like they do again and again this seeson is a crime. On the other hand, i liked the scene with Dany, though we have again our unnecessary special effects-show off moment. Arya's scene seemed well resolved too, but it seemed too easy for her to escape from them (?), and Jaime rescueing Brienne was a good one IMO. The whole build up was pretty cool, starting with the dialogue with Qyburn to him jumping in the Pit and escaping just at time. Though i must say i missed a bit of opposition by Vargo Hoat's men. I mean, if they're refusing 300 gold coins 'cause they now they're going to die soon, why caring about what a useless Jaime and some Bolton's soldiers say? Pretty unlogic. And why the hell are they all calling Vargo Locke now? Bolton called him clearly Vargo Hoat in the previous episode. My conclusion is: many scenes used just to fill up time and are pointless, and many dialogues which may appear good written but seem not levelled to the complexity of the charachters. It's tru that there are good effects though somehow abused, and brilliant acting and scenery, but the script seems more and more a deception to me. I give it a 6