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Victarion Chainbreaker

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  1. Victarion Chainbreaker

    Dany, Dragonblood, and the Restoration of House Targaryen

    Note: I'm actually a nice guy, and I'd love to hear constructive criticism and respond nicely. However, if your criticism is rude, condescending, or insulting, then you can expect me to reply in turn. Not as bad as your math skills: -TPatQ -TWoIaF The Targaryen Kings: Viserys II Now watch carefully, because you seemed to have difficulty with this part. 135-129=6 Yes, I know triple-digit subtraction can be a little difficult, but if you use a calculator, you'll see that's the right answer. Aegon was 9 when Viserys disappeared, so 6 years later he would be 15 years old (trust me on the math, I'm a teacher.) So no, your assertion that: is, well, how should I put it: Well said. I noticed you put a condition on this phrase to make it seem like you had a point: If you take the 6 years Viserys was missing and add the 2 years before Viserys was born you get 8. The 7 years they grew up together is a shorter time than the 8 years Aegon was without his brother. Here, this might help: 7<8 You see, without your misleading condition, it turns out that when Aegon met the recovered Viserys, he had spent most of his life without his brother. Well, you tried. Gee, I wonder why he had to do that? Riding is not hatching. The point of Nettles was to show us you don't need dragonblood to ride a dragon. Aside from the fact that she hatched dragons, which no Targaryen had done in a century and a half. Maybe you missed the Food For Trolls part I put in spoiler tabs. Here it is once again. It addresses the concerns of a certain subsection of the board that believes DANY'S PARENTAGE CAN NEVER BE QUESTIONED NO MATTER HOW MUCH EVIDENCE. It's possible, but there's zero evidence to support it. Um, there is specific evidence to believe Dondarrion and Penrose blood was never a part of the main Targaryen branch. As far as how much pure blood is in the main Targaryen branch, half of Rhaegar, Viserys, and (supposedly) Dany's blood is from the Blackwoods, a quarter is from the Daynes, an eighth is from the Martells, and one sixteenth is from each the Targaryens and the Rogares (going back further would dilute it even more!) A newer influx of blood would dwarf the Targaryen portion they received from Viserys II. She had Valyrian blood, sure, but if dragonblood was so rare that the Dragonlords resorted to incest, then I doubt some random Lyseni merchant's daughter had the power to hatch dragons.
  2. Victarion Chainbreaker

    Dany, Dragonblood, and the Restoration of House Targaryen

    Yes, according to my theory, the descendents of Viserys II wouldn't be descended from Aegon the Conqueror. However, Dany would be. If you want to argue that true Targaryens must descend through the male line, then I see your point. Otherwise, I don't get what you mean. George does like to make things ambiguous. However, providing two possible explanations doesn't mean that neither are true. Maybe he was born impotent due to impure blood. Maybe he was switched. Maybe there's another explanation for why he was the first Targaryen in known history (iirc) to be unable to hatch a dragon egg. If you scroll back to the top of OP, you'll find I defined dragonblood: I would argue that prophetic dreams are a dead giveaway for Valyrians, instead of specifically Targaryens. I was trying to draw a line between common Valyrians and dragonlords, and was arguing that while dragon dreams (amongst other traits) are common to both, only dragonlords had the ability to hatch dragons. Why else would the dragonlords resort to incest? Thank you. It is convoluted, but I've been convinced ever since the worldbook came out that this is a mystery that could be solved with the Targaryen family tree. That's a good pick up of Gay Abandon. The abandon part fits nicely, and now I'm wondering if there's another reason Aegon III didn't like his beautiful wife touching him.
  3. Victarion Chainbreaker

    Dany, Dragonblood, and the Restoration of House Targaryen

    tl/dr: The Targaryens lost their ability to hatch dragons because Viserys II lacked dragonblood and was a genetic bottleneck for House Targaryen. Evidence suggests that Dany is descended from an earlier Targaryen who married out of the main branch and kept dragonblood alive.
  4. Introduction The disappearance (and reappearance) of dragons is one of the series’ biggest mysteries. In-world, characters think of it as part of a general waning of magic from the world, but there is disagreement about which is the cause and which is the effect: -ACoK Bran IV -ACoK Tyrion XI While this may be true, we’d like to explore a more concrete reason for the disappearance of dragons. Specifically, why Targaryens before Aegon III were able to hatch dragon eggs, and why Targaryens after him were not, at least until Dany came along. For this theory, we are defining dragonblood as the ability to hatch dragons. There are other special traits that are associated with Targaryen blood, such as dragon dreams, madness, and an affinity for heat/fire, but for this case we are only interested in dragon-hatching. It seems to be connected to bearing stillborn babies with dragon features, but who knows. This theory puts together many puzzle pieces, and they seem to fit quite well. However, it is still an unfinished puzzle, and George’s reticence about some topics (Summerhall, the last dragon, certain family trees, etc) means that this theory is still a work in progress. I hope you give it the benefit of the doubt, and even if I’ve come to some incorrect conclusions, you may find the evidence compelling enough to come to your own conclusions. The Case Against Viserys II Aegon III is known as the Dragonbane because he was king when the last dragon died, but that title would more accurately belong to his brother, Viserys II. Viserys II was never able to hatch a dragon: -TRP It appears he passed this inability onto his descendents: Viserys II is the direct ancestor of all subsequent members of House Targaryen. Why would Viserys II be unable to hatch dragons? Environmental factors don’t seem likely, as other dragons would be hatched later. Maybe the Targaryens hadn’t been assiduous in keeping their dragonblood pure, what with the influx of Velaryon and Arryn blood? It’s possible, but… -TRP So impure dragonblood doesn’t seem to be the problem. There is another possibility that George hints at: Viserys II was an imposter with no dragonblood. Recall Viserys II’s history: -TPatQ -TPatQ -TWoIaF The Targaryen Kings: Aegon III Do we have any reason to doubt that the recovered Viserys II was real? There’s the proximity clue a few paragraphs later: -TWoIaF The Targaryen Kings: Aegon III There’s also the problem of his age: -TRP -TWoIaF The Targaryen Kings: Viserys II Viserys was born in 122 and his first child was born in 135. I suppose it’s possible for a 12 or 13 year old to father a child, but it’s suspicious. Perhaps it’s a hint that an older imposter was pretending to be Viserys’ age. Some may question how an imposter could convincingly pass himself off as Prince Viserys, especially with regards to his brother. Keep in mind that Viserys II disappeared at age 7, and reappeared at 12 or 13. -TPatQ His appearance was bound to be different, and most people who’d known him closely were dead at that point. It’s also likely that Aegon III really wanted him to be his long lost brother, whether from happiness, guilt, or potential embarrassment: -TWoIaF The Targaryen Kings: Aegon III Viserys’ wife was Larra Rogare: -TWoIaF The Targaryen Kings: Viserys II She may have had Valyrian features, but we have no reason to believe that she had dragonblood. The fact that the dragonlords of Old Valyria resorted to incest to keep their blood pure implies that there was no reliable external indicator of dragonblood. Since neither Viserys II nor his wife could hatch dragons, it’s not surprising that their descendents couldn’t either. But what about the children of Aegon III? They couldn’t hatch dragons either. It turns out there are several indications that Viserys II may have fathered Aegon II’s children. -TWoIaF The Targaryen Kings: Aegon III So Aegon III hated being touched by his wife, but he needed heirs. Was there somebody who could have helped him out with this situation? Someone he fully trusted? -TWoIaF The Targaryen Kings: Aegon III Could Aegon III have asked Viserys to impregnate his wife? A better question might be, do we have any evidence that Viserys was sleeping with his sister-in-law? -TWoIaF The Targaryen Kings: Aegon III Abandoning one’s children is not a move to be taken lightly, and doesn’t seem to fit with the official explanation: -TWoIaF The Targaryen Kings: Viserys II It would be more convincing if Larra Rogare left her family after discovering her husband had been having a long-running affair. Whether Viserys II was switched with an imposter or whether he was born impotent (as far as dragon-hatching goes,) it’s clear that he is responsible for House Targaryen no longer being able to hatch dragons. Neither he nor his wife had dragonblood, and all subsequent generations of Targaryen are descended from them. Dragon Blood The Targaryens had a traditional method to hatch dragon eggs: -TRP While this tradition continued after Viserys II, it appears to have lost its effect. -TMK I’ve been arguing that it was a lack of dragonblood that caused this inability. This family tree highlights all known dragon riders (there are many fewer instances of characters explicitly hatching eggs, and such a small sample size would be insignificant.) I traced a proposed path of dragonblood that flows down through these dragonriders. I found a few interesting points. First, it’s easy to see the bottleneck where the Targaryen succession runs through Viserys II and Larra Rogare. This bottleneck coinciding with the inability to hatch dragons seems suspicious. The only non-overlap is with Aegon III’s children, but George has given us evidence to question their paternity. Second, House Velaryon is very intertwined with House Targaryen, but we don’t have a single case of a Velaryon without Targaryen parentage hatching a dragon. Laenor and Laena are the only known Velaryon dragonriders, and their mother was Rhaenys Targaryen. The Rogue Prince says of Laenor: -TRP But this could be referring to Corlys Velaryon’s Valyrian ethnicity, rather than the ability to hatch dragons. But we digress. The important point about House Velaryon is that Aegon III’s wife, Daenaera Velaryon, was a cousin and not a member of the main branch, and had no known dragon-hatching ancestors. -TWoIaF The Targaryen Kings: Aegon III We don’t have family trees going back that far, but it’s plausible that Daenaera had no dragonblood, as we don’t know when Daenaera’s family branched off compared to when the Targaryens intermarried with them. Notice how the term “cousin” applies equally to father and daughter, so we can’t assume it means first cousin. Third, there are two instances of pre-Dragonbane Targaryens branching out from the main line, potentially carrying dragonblood to their descendents outside of House Targaryen: The twin girls of Daemon and Laena Velaryon. Baela Targaryen married Alyn “Oakenfist” Velaryon, and sired modern-day House Velaryon. Rhaena Targaryen married Garmund Hightower and they had six daughters. Both Baela and Rhaena hatched dragons: -TPatQ It appears that Rhaena’s prayers were answered, as her dragon Morning was one of only four to survive the Dance: -TWoIaF The Targaryen Kings: Aegon II Fourth, Dany looks very isolated down there at the bottom of the tree. No Targaryens had hatched a dragon for several generations, and then suddenly Dany did. How is that possible? Dany and the Restoration of House Targaryen Dany has dragonblood, and it’s evident that post-Dragonbane Targaryens did not: -TWoIaF The Targaryen Kings: Aegon III -TWoIaF The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V -AGoT Dany V Where did Dany get her dragonblood from? I hypothesize that she’s descended from one of Daemon and Laena’s twin girls, the dragon-hatchers who married off into other Houses. However, this presents its own set of problems. Baela married into House Velaryon, but the Targaryens haven’t intermarried with the Velaryons since the Dance. Rhaena married into House Hightower, but she bore six daughters, so we don’t know what Houses they may have eventually married into. It’s possible one of these daughters married into House Martell, House Dayne, or even House Blackwood, which are the three houses that eventually intermarried with House Targaryen’s main line. However, Aegon V’s failure to hatch dragons at Summerhall indicates that dragonblood was not present in his veins, or in his half-Blackwood son’s veins either. And what new blood entered the Targaryen line after Summerhall? Officially, none. Jaeharys II married his sister, as did Aerys II. For Dany to have dragonblood, it appears that we must question her ancestry. “Wait,” you say. “Is there any corroborating evidence that Dany descended from Baela or Rhaena?” Funny thing about that: -ACoK Dany I Dany is understanding that Jorah has a crush on her, but astute readers will understand that Dany has Hightower features. If you check the family tree, you’ll see that Hightowers and Targaryens intermarried three times. Maegor and Ceryse Hightower had no children. Viserys I and Alicent Hightower’s descendents all died during the Dance or soon after. Only the descendents of Rhaena and Garmund Hightower survived, but as they were all daughters, they likely didn’t contribute to the main line of either House Targaryen or House Hightower. If Dany has both Targaryen and Hightower features, then the logical conclusion is that she is descended from this line. If true, then we must wonder who Dany’s parents really were. Perhaps Barristan can give us a clue: -ADwD The Kingbreaker And now we have some timing as well. The Daynes must not have had dragon blood when Maekar married Dyanna Dayne, but sometime between then and Ashara, House Dayne must have intermarried with a descendent of Rhaena, perhaps Ashara’s mother or grandmother. So there we have it. Dany’s is not just on a quest to restore House Targaryen to the Iron Throne. She is also restoring the dragonblood of the Conqueror to House Targaryen. Food For Trolls:
  5. Victarion Chainbreaker

    Enigmatic 'Not a Blog' Post: Alas, Valyria

    So now we're left with the original question: What is the Alas, Valyria post about? My money's on the HBO spinoffs.
  6. Victarion Chainbreaker

    Enigmatic 'Not a Blog' Post: Alas, Valyria

  7. Victarion Chainbreaker

    Enigmatic 'Not a Blog' Post: Alas, Valyria

    Everyone on the board in general, but yes, you in particular.
  8. Victarion Chainbreaker

    Enigmatic 'Not a Blog' Post: Alas, Valyria

    This is George's revenge. There he was, happily writing three books with hidden clues that only the most astute readers could discover. Then the internet happened and book nerds converged from all over the world, deciphering the hidden clues in concert and sharing their discoveries. So the next two books George had to make the hidden clues especially difficult to find, while still keeping the books accessible to the masses. This was much harder and it took him much longer to finish these books. Then the TV show debuted, and the ranks of book nerds doubled, no, tripled, no, exponentially exploded. Hordes of book nerds critically analyze every single word in the series, so George has had to up his game for hidden mysteries. He spent the longest time of all writing TWoW, hiding the clues so deep that the hordes of book nerd don't spoil the ending for everyone within a week of its release. This is George's revenge on us. We've made the books so much harder for him to write. Now he's trolling us with his enigmatic post, laughing as we wring our hands in frustration, a frustration that's but a small fraction of what he's experienced.
  9. Victarion Chainbreaker

    Enigmatic 'Not a Blog' Post: Alas, Valyria

    There's no way he's Finnish. If anything, George is Mandalay.
  10. Victarion Chainbreaker

    Rhaegar and Lyanna - love or abduction? Or neither? 3 parts

    Another option: They had a wilding wedding. Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy (one of the few things we know about him,) and discovered either through his scrolls or the Green men (via Howland) that the original Last Hero had been a Stark that followed the Old Ways. In order to sire the Last Hero Reborn, Rhaegar tried to duplicate the circumstances of the birth of original Last Hero, including the pre-Andal wedding traditions that are still preserved beyond the Wall.
  11. Victarion Chainbreaker

    Enigmatic 'Not a Blog' Post: Alas, Valyria

    You can measure how big of an Ice and Fire fan someone is by how much they despise Wildcards.
  12. Victarion Chainbreaker

    Enigmatic 'Not a Blog' Post: Alas, Valyria

    George said it was the real cover, but it might change in the future.
  13. Victarion Chainbreaker

    Enigmatic 'Not a Blog' Post: Alas, Valyria

    Threads talking about TWoW's release date tend to get locked/deleted. Threads talking about D&D's adaptation also tend to get locked/deleted. The thing was, it didn't count down to Christmas. It counted down to the first day of winter. It was a far more compelling case for hype than this Valyria post.
  14. Victarion Chainbreaker

    Enigmatic 'Not a Blog' Post: Alas, Valyria

    Too many references to That Which Cannot Be Posted About.
  15. Victarion Chainbreaker

    B + A = J, R + L = J, R + L = D, N + A = J

    We know from this SSM that Jon is 8 or 9 months older than Dany. And how would you account for Lyanna? And why would these children's identities need to be kept secret? Edit: you ninja'd me! Yes, the 3 kids being Rhaegar's with all different mothers would be leave a lot fewer holes. Just for clarification, are you talking about Aegon as the baby who was killed or Aegon on the poleboat?