thepooperthatwaspromised

I welcome any serious critical analysis of any work of art/entertainment, and I never say this, but...YOU. ARE. AWESOME.

I personally think part of the culling this year (RIP Pyp, Grenn, etc) is to make way for Dorne charcters. Excited.

plus, it wasn't even Stannis or Castle Black's denouement in the book. I'm actually glad they seem to be saving the LC election for next season, and thus giving Stannis' save a higher place of honor - in the season finale. For 3 seasons, episode 9 has been THE episode. How obvious do they have to make it that they're doing something different this season?

seems it's going to be the dragon lock- up...IMO, unnecessary.

Sorry if I made myself unclear. Basically I agree with you.

sorry, not directed at you rmholt.

changes nothing about what i've said.

Yes. And because of that and more, she is a book finisher, whether she deserves this particular book or not.

Yes. Because (oh feck, I often can't stand her) a MAIN character, and because she does finish some books.

I neither love nor hate Stannis. My critiques 'try' not to have to do with that:)

Truth be told, if it all made perfect sense to me, Craster's would never have happened, Ygritte would have died shortly after Joffrey, Episode 9 would have been Episode 6, then Episode 7 would have had Castle Black fallout etc, etc elsewhere, Episode 8 would have probably been Oberyn-centric, episode 9 would have reminded us of the remaining storylines to be tied up (because i could very wrongly but possibly rightly believe that the showrunners wanted to switch up the expectations for episode 9, i've just been getting this feeling since last season), Epsiode 9 would have covered several different storylines - including Arya and Stannis, and Episode 10 would have more or less stayed true to the book - Dany check-in (because she is a main character and we cannot end a season without her, so in this case, caging her dragons, Jon's fallout, Tyrion, Sansa, LS. This is off the top of my head, in no way meant to be taken as gospel.

Not being a shit, but is this a fair analogy? Stannis' big moment happened in the midst. LS's moment purposely happened at the very end.

As i've said, I'm not arguing that they've done Stannis well, but that Ramesy and Roose are imperative to future storyline sso they were therefore important.

That is sort of my point.

I am agreeing about the abundance of useless Wall crap, which includes the awful (arguably worst ever, Craster's crap), as well as argue that Bran has gotten the same shaft (see Meera's almost rape). Theon, on the other hand, since his future storyline is so tied up with Roose and the North's storyline in general, has received an abundance, which just serves my points. Mel's, as I have said, was also awful, but a way to keep the Stannis 'people' going with storyline...for the record, I do hate how they have made Stannis' storyline more about Mel than Stannis, but Stannis does keep disappearing for chunks at a time and she is the POV character in DwD so ....maybe they have a plan? i didn't say a good one. ETA x 2

p.s. having said all of that, if Stannis doesn't get proper screentime next season, then i might start agreeing with D&D hate Stannis crew.

Without getting into the D&D likes/hates debate, or even whether or not Stannis should have showed up in this episode or not, there are some very practical, logistic reasons why certain characters get more TVtime than others, which has to do with set locations and cast bloat. I think most book lovers agree that the 1st season is the most faithful season. It also had the smallest, most focused cast, and aside from Dany and the Wall, most of the action and character convening took place in either Winterfell or King's Landing. It was much easier to give everyone their due. Much of Dany's arc could be filmed on location but full sets with castles and interiors (which are expensive and time consuming) were largely absent. As the seasons progressed and the cast bloated, characters became greater and more dispersed. To spend time on new sets with new characters, or even on already established sets with characters who have very little interaction with new and important characters becomes completely unfeasible in a show this expensive with already arguably the largest crew in TV history. This is why Brienne and Pod are together as soon as they leave Kings' Landing. To have Brienne on her own would have been a waste. This is also arguably why Jeyne Westerling turned into Talisa. Talisa had no family, no castle - No need for new sets or characters. Which brings me to Stannis. He is such a solitary figure in the books, who after Blackwater and then 'Gendry (Edric)', has no real interaction with any of the other players. He's got Davos, Shireen, Melisandre and Selyse, but no contact with any of the other main characters. So realistically, how many times can we see him with those same characters doing the same thing? This isn't a criticism of his character, it's just a fact. Sure, they can flesh out Tywin and Cersei, the Hound, Sam, (even Greyworm and Missandei because who else does Dany have other than Barristan and Jorah) because King's Landing and the Wall ARE focal sets (even though I think they've underdeveloped characters at the Wall horribly) and because Dany, like Arya ,is one of the MAIN characters through which other characters pass through and are introduced. Little time has been spent on the Iron Islands because no one else goes there so until it is absolutely necessary to go there, it's expendable. Likewise with Stannis, unfortunately. So, until he gets to the Wall and has something to do that involves other players, like it or not, little screentime is going to be devoted to him. Again, this is not to argue that what they have done with his charcter during the screentime they have allotted him is fair (I also feel that way about several other characters but I rarely see people complain about them as vehemently). I would have loved to hear about Proudwing already. I would have loved a lot of things. But in terms of screentime, and why they haven't fleshed out his character more yet, I totally get it. And just to weigh in on why he didn't get there in this episode -- like so many have said, this was the 1st and only episode just dedicated to the NW, and their 1 small victory, plus a breath to be taken (literally, as this was the 1st slow motion shot I think GOT has ever done) for Ygritte's death. Her death concluded a chapter in the book, it deserved a beat. Stannis' heoric arrival does too, but the last several chapters of SoS were Tyrion, Jon as LC, Sansa, and then LS. If anyone got screwed out of not "ending" season 4 before the LS reveal, it's actually Sansa.

Word. On the show, Jon just got back to Castle Black so Ygritte can't be shot yet, and Lady Stoneheart didn't appear until about 350 pages later in the book, so people have no need to worry that these things won't happen. On the other hand, they have totally screwed with Yunkai/Meereen events, but since they decided to "introduce" Barristan as who really is to Dany, thus mitigating the need to make him Belwas' squire, I'm thinking they might still introduce Belwas as a Meereen character.

My interpretation is that they're building up Shae (by making her love both Sansa and Tyrion) and Dany up as much as possible (hence the polarizing white savior crowd surfing scenes) just to dramatize their inevitable great falls.

oh, almost forgot, Varys being in Essos or The Hooded Man past ASOS is not at all in conflict with me, as SST is believed to have died right before Varys disappears from Westeros.

Cool, I mean this in the sincerest, respectful, way, you have left me a LOT to respond to, and much of it in agreement. And damn you to seven hells ;), :lol: for calling me out and making me have to explain the Symon Silver Tongue thing because there is a TON of material I have drawn this theory from, and it is an enormous assache to have to focus it all, eeeek!!!! :eek: So... 1. Arya Frey - you and me and he all (briefly) thought it, I think/hope for shits and giggles more than any other reason, but very clearly not to be. 2. Thank you for pointing this out about Cat. i know people are really upset about LSH not making her grand entrance, but this episode takes place from and up until like 24 hours after the RW. In real time, has Nymeria even found her yet? 3. Theon's perfect teeth - hehehe. Requires a lot more time in makeup for total face gashing and teeth removal than one might imagine so I get the changes here. 4. Stannis, to me, has been a problem character for GOT (not the books, mind, you, but the TV series) from the start. In both, I think he's actually one of the most complicated characters, but in TV it's truly difficult to write a complicated character convincingly within the confines of 3 minute scenes. I feel like he, almost more than anyone else, though he seems the least flexible, actually flexes the most over the entirety of what we've seen so far. I'm not sure I'm making any sense, and maybe this deserves it's own post, but I find him the most conflicted, if that's the right word, of all the "kings", and for any TV writer, that's a tough person to convey. 5. I love the Hound. I love Arya. I think both of their TV adaptations have been soooo well done, and find myself (fanfic-ly) wishing that the two of them could just roam around Westeros doing their thing for the remainder of the series. 6. agreed - don't understand why Nightfort isn's explicitly spell protected, for all the reasons you stated, but do understand not introducing Coldhands... yet. They've already kept Osha on for far longer than she appeared in the books, no sense in paying another actor until they are going to become a series reg. 7. "Instead of shortchanged...When Jaime started growing, Cersei started shrinking..." Amen. I am probably among the minority, but I actually loved the Jaime/Cersei scene. Book version with Sept sex was powerful, because it conveyed the desperation to hold onto what they once felt for each other, but this scene conveyed to me so much more about where they are headed. I saw, hope, relief, disappointment, and uncertainty in both actors and I don't think there could have been any words or actions that could have better relayed their journeys to this point (I will probably now be promptly skewered for this interpretation) 8. Yay. 'nuff said about Oberyn/Mountain stuff. 9. Davos...swoon. Everything you said, YES. And I was stupid enough to find him kinda boring up until now. 10. Okay, here is where we diverge. Book Shae never asked to be brought to KL. BookShae never gave Tyrion jealous shit about Sansa. BookShae talked about keeping her pretty stuff but never talked about Tyrion being ashamed of her, or him never fathering children for her because they would bastards or even being only his "whore" (TVShae's words, not mine). BookShae never said the I am your/You are mine stuff, nor offered to cut off the faces of people that threatened Tyrion. TVShae wants a lot more than just money, which TV Tyrion has already offered her, she wants legitimacy, which to me, is more ambitious. 11. YES. TVSansa has been crying already for like the past 3 episodes. In order to make the impact of the RW (my imagination fails me here) IMPACTFUL, TVSansa needs to have had a moment of respite, a moment where she is feeling something other than grief, and hate, a moment where she feels some sort of empowered deviousness. On the other hand, I do think they could have done something a little more with her reaction to the RW. 12. Regarding Symon Silver Tongue, since I cursed myself by bringing it up, I will go into further depth about it if you want, but I fear I have rambled faaaaarrrrr too long already on this post so if you're sure you really, really want it, let me know... :kiss: and again, thank you.

Soooo funny :lol: ...and just to add, i've said before and i'll say it again, renly intimidated one of the biggest badasses in the land (stannis)...with a motherfuckin' PEACH!

Why, THANK YOU kind sir!

1. Davos rocked more than just the boat!!! 2. Did not get the sense Roose and Walder are buddies. In fact, more got the sense that Roose was trying to hint that Blackfish will be a future assache and Frey just didn't listen, much like the young wolf didn't. 3. Did not at all get the sense that Tyrion and Sansa are buddies. The story has to get Sansa to this place of completely giving up everything that she was - idealistic, romantic, hopeful - in order to become strong enough to turn it all off. A couple weeks ago she believed Loras was going to be her shining knight, even though he didn't even remember the moment she thought was her proof that he would be - the red rose he gave her at the tourney. Tyrion has been nothing but kind. Even if she never wants him in her bed, she knows he was forced into this marriage too, she knows he's saved her from Joffrey's abuses more than a few times, it's no stretch of the imagination that she might allow herself, and him, a MOMENT to believe that they might be friendly, if nothing else. The moment she realizes her mother and Robb are dead - that is the moment the armor will never come off again. 4. Shae loving Tyrion and Sansa. Here i do agree that D & D are deviating from the source material - BUT - in order to up the tragedy. TVShae has already been made considerably more 'ambitious' than BookShae. She wants to be his lady, she wants to be legitimized ( which IMO is ridiculous, but for the purposes of TV and having a character on for 3 seasons, and making her death tragic, i see why they made that choice), but as such, she needs to want more than gold out of the arrangement and if she loves Sansa, all the more drama...I suspect that Tyrion is going to make some choice in the future that seems to pick Sansa over Shae (again), and that will push Shae over the edge enough for her to betray him in the trial (and with his father) 5. Varys - his stuff with Shae makes perfect sense to me since I also think he was Symon Silver Tongue in the books, so I think his motives on the show are pretty transparent. 6. Arya - In the books, Arya had some names on her early lists that did some truly horrible things, but other names were for relatively menial grievances. For the show to keep everyone rooting for her, and in classic TV/Film fashion, she needed to have a decisive, and more importantly, inarguably sympathetic turning point, and the Red Wedding was it. Same as Sansa . Time to give up the childish fantasies and move onto adult agency. I actually thought this was the perfect moment for the GOT writers to choose. Yay!

I've seen a few posts that thought the Shae/Varys scene was pointless or out of character. But especially since I think Varys is Symon Silver Tongue, I think this scene makes perfect sense and is indeed setting up the golden handed end of Shae.