thepooperthatwaspromised

It's an interesting thing about human psychology where regardless of how good something is, the most vocal and visible of any group will be the people who just want to complain. You see examples of it all the time in the public.

How often have any of us been inclined to return to a store to tell the employee just how helpful they were? Very few I would wager. How many of us have been very vocal about even the most minor of complaints and made sure the employees knew about it? Very many I would wager.

The size of the nitpick thread is no testament to the quality of this show (or lack thereof). It is a testament to the fact that some people just want to bitch. (I am now also guilty of this, the irony is not lost on me)

Some of you people are just plain ridiculous. No, the show is not perfect. No, I do not agree with many of the changes they have made. Yes, I wish they were closer to the books. However, it seems as if the books are like your Bible. Anytime someone interprets them a little differently, or anytime your head canon storyboard doesn't play out exactly as you planned, you fly into an unreasonable rage and then you keep coming back next week for more. Clearly D&D are doing something right, especially if the same people keep coming back to complain about the same things.

The people who rate this show at a 1 are just not being intellectually honest. Even the episodes of Game of Thrones rated at a 1 are leagues ahead of other shows right now.

I welcome any serious critical analysis of any work of art/entertainment, and I never say this, but...YOU. ARE. AWESOME.

But here's the X factor: Oberyn's popularity. His character really went over big. In fact, I saw a recent fanbase poll that had him as the 2nd most popular character (favorite character of 11% of the fan base) to Tyrion's #1. Granted, Tyrion crushed him with 26%, but still. As long as they tie Dorne heavily in to revenge for Oberyn, which in fact is really what kicks the Dorne story off, I think they can go with a lot of Dorne and it will work. Plus sexy Sand Snakes.

I personally think part of the culling this year (RIP Pyp, Grenn, etc) is to make way for Dorne charcters. Excited.

I feel like some of us are overestimating the dramatic power of Stannis' sneak attack. Yes, defeating the wildling army is a hugely important event for both Stannis and Westeros as a whole, but from a TV drama perspective, it's not terribly interesting. Consider:

1) Stannis is not under any threat. He may be outnumbered, but he has superior resources and the element of surprise.

2) His attack of the wildlings doesn't represent anything meaningful about him as a character. Sure, he's going through the trouble because he's decided that that's what kings do, but there's no personal element to it. He's not, say, choosing to save a former enemy, or reversing a character trait (e.g., Han Solo at the end of New Hope).

Compare that to the battle of Castle Black, where everyone on the NW thinks they're going to die, but still manage to succeed against all odds by believing in their cause and because certain characters manage to change and grow.

plus, it wasn't even Stannis or Castle Black's denouement in the book. I'm actually glad they seem to be saving the LC election for next season, and thus giving Stannis' save a higher place of honor - in the season finale. For 3 seasons, episode 9 has been THE episode. How obvious do they have to make it that they're doing something different this season?

I know she has to have some sort of epic Woodstock moment in the last ep so I'm curious how awkwardly it will be jammed in.

seems it's going to be the dragon lock- up...IMO, unnecessary.

Ok, I guess I was confused about you saying that Melisandre was a POV in ASOS since she isn't. I actually agree with your larger points about how they've made Stannis's arc more about Mel than about him. And I find that rather frustrating. I'm not a huge Stannis fan myself (I respect the character, though) and even I'm seeing them not handling him very well. That's pretty much normal for a lot of characters on this show, though.

That said, I don't think it would have made sense to include him in this episode. His moment is more about sweeping in and scattering Mance's army than it is about coming in and saving the NW in the middle of a large battle. Or rather, he moves in and ends a series of attacks that would have led to a much larger assault. I don't think his importance to the NW will be lost on viewers. They've been hammering home the weaknesses of the NW for 4 seasons now and really showed how out of their depth they are in this episode. Stannis coming in and helping them will still be a big deal for the story moving forward. He changes the dynamic at the Wall. That's game changing whether he gets 5 minutes or 10 minutes.

Sorry if I made myself unclear. Basically I agree with you.

changes nothing about what i've said.

sorry, not directed at you rmholt.

changes nothing about what i've said.

Yes. And because of that and more, she is a book finisher, whether she deserves this particular book or not.

Ask yourself would D&D had that 3rd battle as the end if Dany saved the Wall?

Yes.

Yes. Because (oh feck, I often can't stand her) a MAIN character, and because she does finish some books.

If you like Stannis you are in for a disappointment. He is obviously going to be killed off early in book 6 when Mel switches to supporting Jon. Stannis has to die before Cersei's brats because otherwise Stannis becomes the sole legitimate heir of Robert Baratheon and Dannys is restarting the war of five kings rather than helping fight the other.

I neither love nor hate Stannis. My critiques 'try' not to have to do with that:)

If you really go by that logic, what the fuck were Snow Winterfell & Lysa's Flight doing in the seventh episode of the season, when it clearly happened in last chapter,right before the prologue?

Maybe they should have done that in last episode, followed by LSH reveal. Then how much emotional impact that would have created,you think?

Truth be told, if it all made perfect sense to me, Craster's would never have happened, Ygritte would have died shortly after Joffrey, Episode 9 would have been Episode 6, then Episode 7 would have had Castle Black fallout etc, etc elsewhere, Episode 8 would have probably been Oberyn-centric, episode 9 would have reminded us of the remaining storylines to be tied up (because i could very wrongly but possibly rightly believe that the showrunners wanted to switch up the expectations for episode 9, i've just been getting this feeling since last season), Epsiode 9 would have covered several different storylines - including Arya and Stannis, and Episode 10 would have more or less stayed true to the book - Dany check-in (because she is a main character and we cannot end a season without her, so in this case, caging her dragons, Jon's fallout, Tyrion, Sansa, LS.

This is off the top of my head, in no way meant to be taken as gospel.

For those of you saying that placing a scene in the end or during the episode is the same thing, try putting the Lady Stoneheart scene during the half of next episode and see if it will have the same impact.

Both Stannis and the episode could have had a perfect and remarkeable ending, but they probably transfered the last scene to episode 10 only to decrease the glory of the moment. Episode 10 had enough cliffhangers by itself even without this episode 9.

Not being a shit, but is this a fair analogy? Stannis' big moment happened in the midst. LS's moment purposely happened at the very end.

The thing is that argument for Theon also aplies to Stannis. There enough time to explore Theon mental breakdown, but the ideological debates happening in DG? I don't want to come of as some sort of Stannis fanatic, but it really jarring how his and Jon storylines have been handled, and i don't think it's a question of time so much as a question of quality writing.

As i've said, I'm not arguing that they've done Stannis well, but that Ramesy and Roose are imperative to future storyline sso they were therefore important.

Actually, Davos is the POV character in Stannis's story in ACOK and ASOS. Melisandre only has one POV chapter and it's at the Wall after Stannis leaves to go after the Boltons in ADWD.

That is sort of my point.

What about Bran and Theon? They are also very solitary figures (in relation to everybody else). Stannis had 2 scenes this season, with the finale it will be 3 scenes. Why would any show viewer care about a storyline that barely appears and is clearly sub-par when it does? Think about the mission to Caster's keep, Mel's bath, Locke's & Ramsay scene. Do you think that was the best use of allocatted time?

I am agreeing about the abundance of useless Wall crap, which includes the awful (arguably worst ever, Craster's crap), as well as argue that Bran has gotten the same shaft (see Meera's almost rape). Theon, on the other hand, since his future storyline is so tied up with Roose and the North's storyline in general, has received an abundance, which just serves my points.

Mel's, as I have said, was also awful, but a way to keep the Stannis 'people' going with storyline...for the record, I do hate how they have made Stannis' storyline more about Mel than Stannis, but Stannis does keep disappearing for chunks at a time and she is the POV character in DwD so ....maybe they have a plan? i didn't say a good one.

ETA x 2

p.s. having said all of that, if Stannis doesn't get proper screentime next season, then i might start agreeing with D&D hate Stannis crew.

Without getting into the D&D likes/hates debate, or even whether or not Stannis should have showed up in this episode or not, there are some very practical, logistic reasons why certain characters get more TVtime than others, which has to do with set locations and cast bloat.

I think most book lovers agree that the 1st season is the most faithful season. It also had the smallest, most focused cast, and aside from Dany and the Wall, most of the action and character convening took place in either Winterfell or King's Landing. It was much easier to give everyone their due. Much of Dany's arc could be filmed on location but full sets with castles and interiors (which are expensive and time consuming) were largely absent.

As the seasons progressed and the cast bloated, characters became greater and more dispersed. To spend time on new sets with new characters, or even on already established sets with characters who have very little interaction with new and important characters becomes completely unfeasible in a show this expensive with already arguably the largest crew in TV history.

This is why Brienne and Pod are together as soon as they leave Kings' Landing. To have Brienne on her own would have been a waste. This is also arguably why Jeyne Westerling turned into Talisa. Talisa had no family, no castle - No need for new sets or characters.

Which brings me to Stannis. He is such a solitary figure in the books, who after Blackwater and then 'Gendry (Edric)', has no real interaction with any of the other players. He's got Davos, Shireen, Melisandre and Selyse, but no contact with any of the other main characters. So realistically, how many times can we see him with those same characters doing the same thing? This isn't a criticism of his character, it's just a fact.

Sure, they can flesh out Tywin and Cersei, the Hound, Sam, (even Greyworm and Missandei because who else does Dany have other than Barristan and Jorah) because King's Landing and the Wall ARE focal sets (even though I think they've underdeveloped characters at the Wall horribly) and because Dany, like Arya ,is one of the MAIN characters through which other characters pass through and are introduced. Little time has been spent on the Iron Islands because no one else goes there so until it is absolutely necessary to go there, it's expendable. Likewise with Stannis, unfortunately. So, until he gets to the Wall and has something to do that involves other players, like it or not, little screentime is going to be devoted to him.

Again, this is not to argue that what they have done with his charcter during the screentime they have allotted him is fair (I also feel that way about several other characters but I rarely see people complain about them as vehemently). I would have loved to hear about Proudwing already. I would have loved a lot of things. But in terms of screentime, and why they haven't fleshed out his character more yet, I totally get it.

And just to weigh in on why he didn't get there in this episode -- like so many have said, this was the 1st and only episode just dedicated to the NW, and their 1 small victory, plus a breath to be taken (literally, as this was the 1st slow motion shot I think GOT has ever done) for Ygritte's death. Her death concluded a chapter in the book, it deserved a beat.

Stannis' heoric arrival does too, but the last several chapters of SoS were Tyrion, Jon as LC, Sansa, and then LS. If anyone got screwed out of not "ending" season 4 before the LS reveal, it's actually Sansa.

Lady Stoneheart and Ygritte dying are still probably going to happen, so those two don't make senseias issues that would make someone stop watching.

Word. On the show, Jon just got back to Castle Black so Ygritte can't be shot yet, and Lady Stoneheart didn't appear until about 350 pages later in the book, so people have no need to worry that these things won't happen.

On the other hand, they have totally screwed with Yunkai/Meereen events, but since they decided to "introduce" Barristan as who really is to Dany, thus mitigating the need to make him Belwas' squire, I'm thinking they might still introduce Belwas as a Meereen character.

I believe the quote was "I would kill for that girl" -- very different level of commitment there :). I agree with the other poster Shae is a fairly boring character whore with a heart of gold, but that's the level of subtlety that D&D bring to the table. They just don't have it in them to make a great show, in spite of some great plot material to work with. I enjoy it, but it's not as good as it might've been. On a related vein, I totally expect them to botch the opportunity inherent in Dany staying and leading people in her city in the far east. The cool opportunity from that is to showcase here losing control of a foreign population due to her own underestimating the complexity of upsetting a complex culture/economy/political situation and the difficulty of governing. Instead, I fully expect Dany to be the shining white hero who combats villians in the "middle east." Just some pre-bi**ing for seasons 4-5 :).

My interpretation is that they're building up Shae (by making her love both Sansa and Tyrion) and Dany up as much as possible (hence the polarizing white savior crowd surfing scenes) just to dramatize their inevitable great falls.

oh, almost forgot, Varys being in Essos or The Hooded Man past ASOS is not at all in conflict with me, as SST is believed to have died right before Varys disappears from Westeros.

I thought that too, but rejected it. Takes out the whole motivation for the Winterfell assault.

Cat has to rot for 3 days. Dont know why she didnt scratch up her face - wouldnt have been that hard. Goes with the mystery of Theon's perfect teeth.

I see Stannis portrayed more as determined to win the throne as honorably as possible but willing to make adjustments.

My favorite part of the Arya stabby on 2nd watching was how the Hound just sat down and started finishing off the dinner.

Agree on Arya and Hound scenes.

I see no reason the gate at the Nightfort should not be protected by spells. Surely the wildlings or the Others would have used it if it werent warded.

Instead of short changed I would say powerfully understated.

Davos and Shireen is really good. So was Davos and Gendry. Davos is a natural leader i guess.

I think Cersei and Jaime loved each other in an immature sort of way - they were rather spoiled and coddled and didnt have any real adult behaviors. When Jaime started growing, Cersei was shrinking. When they came back together in the books they just couldnt bring themselves to the same level of intimacy and trust. Who knows what will happen in the show.

The Oberyn-Mountain duel absolutely has to happen - great scene for TV, like the Bronn-Vardis fight.

I like how they have changed the Sansa-Tyrion dynamic and Shae's motivations. In the book she was always a whore. I cant see Tyrion strangling her now or her betraying him at his trial. Well if she does turn on him they'll have to make her mad at him since she is truly fond of him now. Or maybe she is just fond of his money and thinks it will go on forever. She actually seems LESS ambitious to me than Book Shae. Book Shae is always pushing Tyrion for more status. I wonder if she did this because she was also with Tywin and therefore not frightened about being discovered. TV Shae seems happy where she is.

Tyrion was kind but he was ugly (and that was meaningful to the dreamer Sansa) and he was a Lannister and she had declared war on all Lannisters. I preferred her being able to banter with Tyrion and showing some adjustment to her status and some dark humor about it instead of being paralyzed all the time.

I cannot see how Varys could possibly be Symon Silver Tongue. WHY? Personally I think he is either hiding in Essos or is the Hooded Man. Or both.

Cool, I mean this in the sincerest, respectful, way, you have left me a LOT to respond to, and much of it in agreement. And damn you to seven hells ;), :lol: for calling me out and making me have to explain the Symon Silver Tongue thing because there is a TON of material I have drawn this theory from, and it is an enormous assache to have to focus it all, eeeek!!!! :eek:

So...

1. Arya Frey - you and me and he all (briefly) thought it, I think/hope for shits and giggles more than any other reason, but very clearly not to be.

2. Thank you for pointing this out about Cat. i know people are really upset about LSH not making her grand entrance, but this episode takes place from and up until like 24 hours after the RW. In real time, has Nymeria even found her yet?

3. Theon's perfect teeth - hehehe. Requires a lot more time in makeup for total face gashing and teeth removal than one might imagine so I get the changes here.

4. Stannis, to me, has been a problem character for GOT (not the books, mind, you, but the TV series) from the start. In both, I think he's actually one of the most complicated characters, but in TV it's truly difficult to write a complicated character convincingly within the confines of 3 minute scenes. I feel like he, almost more than anyone else, though he seems the least flexible, actually flexes the most over the entirety of what we've seen so far. I'm not sure I'm making any sense, and maybe this deserves it's own post, but I find him the most conflicted, if that's the right word, of all the "kings", and for any TV writer, that's a tough person to convey.

5. I love the Hound. I love Arya. I think both of their TV adaptations have been soooo well done, and find myself (fanfic-ly) wishing that the two of them could just roam around Westeros doing their thing for the remainder of the series.

6. agreed - don't understand why Nightfort isn's explicitly spell protected, for all the reasons you stated, but do understand not introducing Coldhands... yet. They've already kept Osha on for far longer than she appeared in the books, no sense in paying another actor until they are going to become a series reg.

7. "Instead of shortchanged...When Jaime started growing, Cersei started shrinking..." Amen. I am probably among the minority, but I actually loved the Jaime/Cersei scene. Book version with Sept sex was powerful, because it conveyed the desperation to hold onto what they once felt for each other, but this scene conveyed to me so much more about where they are headed. I saw, hope, relief, disappointment, and uncertainty in both actors and I don't think there could have been any words or actions that could have better relayed their journeys to this point (I will probably now be promptly skewered for this interpretation)

8. Yay. 'nuff said about Oberyn/Mountain stuff.

9. Davos...swoon. Everything you said, YES. And I was stupid enough to find him kinda boring up until now.

10. Okay, here is where we diverge. Book Shae never asked to be brought to KL. BookShae never gave Tyrion jealous shit about Sansa. BookShae talked about keeping her pretty stuff but never talked about Tyrion being ashamed of her, or him never fathering children for her because they would bastards or even being only his "whore" (TVShae's words, not mine). BookShae never said the I am your/You are mine stuff, nor offered to cut off the faces of people that threatened Tyrion. TVShae wants a lot more than just money, which TV Tyrion has already offered her, she wants legitimacy, which to me, is more ambitious.

11. YES. TVSansa has been crying already for like the past 3 episodes. In order to make the impact of the RW (my imagination fails me here) IMPACTFUL, TVSansa needs to have had a moment of respite, a moment where she is feeling something other than grief, and hate, a moment where she feels some sort of empowered deviousness. On the other hand, I do think they could have done something a little more with her reaction to the RW.

12. Regarding Symon Silver Tongue, since I cursed myself by bringing it up, I will go into further depth about it if you want, but I fear I have rambled faaaaarrrrr too long already on this post so if you're sure you really, really want it, let me know... :kiss:

and again, thank you.

All your complaints are trivial I tell ya! Trivial! Have we not forgotten the real damage D&D have done to the show from season 2?!

That is, the whereabouts of Renly's peach! They gave us a fruit bowl. A fruit bowl on a desk! Hundreds cried out over it's omission! Old ladies threw their tea pots out the window in disgust! Without it, Stannis cannot be Stannis. The seven kingdoms will crumble. The Others will take over the peach lands! No wonder he is so grumpy, he's lacking in the natural vitamins of a peach from Renly's garden! For shame HBO! :P

Soooo funny :lol: ...and just to add, i've said before and i'll say it again, renly intimidated one of the biggest badasses in the land (stannis)...with a motherfuckin' PEACH!

THIS DUDE GETS IT.

Read and learn, folks.

Why, THANK YOU kind sir!

Wow, this episode played out less like an adaptation and more like fanfiction. Not bad fanfiction, usually, though it got impossibly cheesy with Asha And The Quest For Theon. Roose and Walder are buddies. Tyrion and Sansa are buddies. Shae loves Tyrion. Shae loves Sansa. Shae doesn't love a sack full of diamonds. Varys??? Arya kills the dude who attached Grey Wind's head to Robb's body. Well at least she's killing someone now.

There were a lot of things I enjoyed about the episode. I liked everything that had to do with Davos. Of course his scenes didn't play out exactly like the book, but the changes were not changes that altered the character or the story, really, and his scene with Gendry and the rowboat was great.

1. Davos rocked more than just the boat!!!

2. Did not get the sense Roose and Walder are buddies. In fact, more got the sense that Roose was trying to hint that Blackfish will be a future assache and Frey just didn't listen, much like the young wolf didn't.

3. Did not at all get the sense that Tyrion and Sansa are buddies. The story has to get Sansa to this place of completely giving up everything that she was - idealistic, romantic, hopeful - in order to become strong enough to turn it all off. A couple weeks ago she believed Loras was going to be her shining knight, even though he didn't even remember the moment she thought was her proof that he would be - the red rose he gave her at the tourney. Tyrion has been nothing but kind. Even if she never wants him in her bed, she knows he was forced into this marriage too, she knows he's saved her from Joffrey's abuses more than a few times, it's no stretch of the imagination that she might allow herself, and him, a MOMENT to believe that they might be friendly, if nothing else. The moment she realizes her mother and Robb are dead - that is the moment the armor will never come off again.

4. Shae loving Tyrion and Sansa. Here i do agree that D & D are deviating from the source material - BUT - in order to up the tragedy. TVShae has already been made considerably more 'ambitious' than BookShae. She wants to be his lady, she wants to be legitimized ( which IMO is ridiculous, but for the purposes of TV and having a character on for 3 seasons, and making her death tragic, i see why they made that choice), but as such, she needs to want more than gold out of the arrangement and if she loves Sansa, all the more drama...I suspect that Tyrion is going to make some choice in the future that seems to pick Sansa over Shae (again), and that will push Shae over the edge enough for her to betray him in the trial (and with his father)

5. Varys - his stuff with Shae makes perfect sense to me since I also think he was Symon Silver Tongue in the books, so I think his motives on the show are pretty transparent.

6. Arya - In the books, Arya had some names on her early lists that did some truly horrible things, but other names were for relatively menial grievances. For the show to keep everyone rooting for her, and in classic TV/Film fashion, she needed to have a decisive, and more importantly, inarguably sympathetic turning point, and the Red Wedding was it. Same as Sansa . Time to give up the childish fantasies and move onto adult agency. I actually thought this was the perfect moment for the GOT writers to choose. Yay!

Do you guys think that they will let Tyrion strangle Shae next season or have her die another way?

Strangle! Strangle! Strangle! LOL

I've seen a few posts that thought the Shae/Varys scene was pointless or out of character. But especially since I think Varys is Symon Silver Tongue, I think this scene makes perfect sense and is indeed setting up the golden handed end of Shae.