Greywolf2375

No, that's the problem, it doesn't work. Jon understands what it is like up there - remember he gave Sam a once over for wanting to bring Gilly north with them? So how, after Quorin has all ready told him about the food, does Jon think this is a good idea to keep her alive and with him? On top of there being a perfectly plausible explanation given in the book? Change is fine, but this change doesn't make sense as they did it.

Why? That was one of the defining moments for that character - at that age, to be sent away from her family and to not show emotion at it? Instead of changing into a Princess not just in name, she remains a child.. Did I care about this change specifically, not really - Myrcella has always been "meh" to me, but I always ask when I see changes of this natuer, why make this change? Why not just have her not cry? It doesn't lengthen the scene, cost any more, bring in any other characters. Why not just leave it as it is?

Which then brings you to point 1 - still not enough food to surive. So back to why did he chase her - he all ready made the decision to not kill her when he intentionally missed the swing and he knows he can't keep them both alive. So he made the choice to let her live - to what end? To bring her to Quorin - well, we know what he will do. Dead Ygritte. Bring her to Mance? Nope, can't do that because then not only have you let her live to get the info to the WIldlings but you've also given yourself and your nice sword up. Jon dead. Bring her to the Wall? Not enough food. both dead. So how does letting her live, then chasing her down then just falling asleep next to her make sense? It doesn't

The problem I have with neither Tywin nor LF spotting Arya either as who she is (LF) or at least as a highborn (Tywin) is that we get Robb the 1st spotting Talissa as a highborn lady with far fewer interactions. LF is supposed to be a people reader and Twin is master of details, how can they not spot this when Robb does? I liked the episode - how Winterfell was taken, Theon needing three swings to get Cassells head off, I would have liked the riot to be bigger but they did it well. The interaction between Tywin & Baelish was fine, Arya showed some of the "mouse" that she felt in Harrenhall - just the gap that neither of them could spot her seems really awkward with Robb being able to do that same thing. The spicer was great, I love that while people are amazed at her dragons, not everyone is just falling over themselves to befriend her. Jon/Ygritte - meh, another scene that makes Jon look like a moron; if he wasn't going to kill her, why chase her? Osha turning to Theon - screen time is at at a premium, have her say she's a spearwife, kick the guard in the junk and take the spear. She's gained the trust and can still slit the guards throat. Dragon-napping: yay, artificial cliff hanger.

No - it's not off the table. Her not selecting him as first is fine - she wanted revenge but her not selecting him at all, now that she has access to him and can see & hear what he is planning? No, this will be a gap if she doesn't select him as one of the three now.

No - not really sure what they were getting at with that statement.

Again, no one is saying there shouldn't be any changes so not really sure what the point of your post is.

All that translates to though is "excuse to show a breast". I don't disagree that they easily could have explained it, but given the reputation that is growing about sex/nudity it may very well come off as hoaky to non book readers that don't know the Qarth fasion.

That's very true from the perspective of world building, but from the perspective of tv audience, it would just come across as another excuse to show nudity. Since it would have been at a party, there wouldn't have even been sex to "allow" for it to be seen. There isn't a separator between "nudity & sex" from "nudity & culture" in the show because there isn't enough time to build the cultures or get background on them. An example of that is Xaro invoking "Soumai" - ok, what does that mean? Everyone immediately nods, but the speaker still seems unsettled by Dany being allowed in What is it about that ritual that opens the doors for Dany?

Can you really show any post that says that it needs to mirror the books exactly otherwise it will be a total loss?

The episode was ok. Started off with a clunk - the Renly death scene had no subtlety or art to it. We get the shadow ooze across the floor and then a 4th body is in the tent. Gwendoline was fantastic in it first reminding people that she is a bad ass warrior, then letting people know she is a person in love. Thought the scene with Brienne and Cat with the vow was well done. Littlefinger still just doesn't do it for me. I do like that they are putting Marg's desires out in front of us - it's been said, I think this is a good translation of her that we only got to see after a few books of putting all her little pieces together. Qarth was ok - the vault/key thing was a little odd though. I did like the "dracarys" scene with the first failed breathe then the second one worked. The Tywin/Arya scene was cool - but as cautious as Tywin is I don't see him standing for a servant challenging him like that. Arya & Jaqen are off to a good start. Don't really mind the change in order of her 3 kills, do wonder when we will hear in a report about Dondarrions people so that it doesn't just fall off the map. The scenery of north of the wall was great, but why does Mormont need to put down Jon as a steward & that he got knocked out by Craster? Why does Jon need to volunteer and puff up his chest? We get to the same point with Halfhand just saying "I'll take a,b,c ....and Snow." The look on Tyrions face when he walked into the vault with the wildfire was perfect - I do hope they keep in the point later about the pyromancers finding more ripe fruit out in the city. Kind of a nice look on Cersei's face as well when she commented about the King - another realization on her part that she is losing/has lost any control she thought she was getting.

Conflict was all ready set up between them. Tyrion slapping Joffrey repeatedly in S1 about going to see Bran and offer his respects, Tyrion interrupting Joffreys nameday celebration, Tyrion interrupting Sansa being beaten, threatening one of his kingsguard and then removing his betrothed from the danger in front of the court. We have been given enough that if the whore scene did not exist and Joffrey did something against Tyrion there wouldn't be reason to question why it happened.

Not necessarily - it could be that someone judged it a 1 because they think the production was the worst possible adaption of what material was available. I could just as easily say anyone that judges it a 10 isn't really watching because nothing is perfect - even though a 10 doesn't necessarily mean it was a perfect episode. Still have voted yet...between a 6 & a 7 - what they did well, they did very well, what I think they whiffed on, they whiffed huge. And to the extent they whiffed, those are having more impact than what they did well - partially because of the scene itself, partially because of what could have been.

It is pretty good - many/most of the complaints I have voiced and seen aren't just "oh, damn - the book didn't say that exactly!". They are about change for change sake - take LOTR for example. I missed not being able to see Tom Bombadil look through the ring (it would have been amazing to have Robin Williams do that part just for that one reason, but I digress) but did that ruin the movie? No - they had to make some changes, remove some scenes for time, budget, etc. Completely fine. But then why add in the scene where Frodo and the Nazgul go face to face on the walls of Osgiliath? That scene didn't add anything to the movies. The changes to Faramir...why? We all ready know the Ring can tempt anyone. That is the nature of my complaints/feedback - changes are fine and required. But when a scene or character is removed and another is added that does not seem to add anything to the story, that is where I have issue. Again - the Joffrey/whore scene. What did the scene add that we didn't all ready know about him? If that scene had not been included, would we have missed out on any character development for Joffrey? Would, when QoT (if she exists in this universe) asks Sansa about Joffrey, anyone be surprised at her response and QoTs reaction? I don't think we would have - what we saw reinforces what we know about him, but isn't anything new and wasn't needed to tell the story..

The base assumption is just from spies within each others courts. They find out LF gets on his plane and is with Renly within days.

You're right, I wasn't - i was commenting on the "just be happy there is an adaption." We could have received something along the lines of those adaptions - would it still be said "just be happy?". I'm incredibly grateful to the time they put in to make the show. It is the one TV show I make time to watch. Doesn't mean though that I (or anyone else) has like or stay silent to things that don't make sense, don't flow, don't follow logic, etc.

I don't remember any ever saying that the TV show needs be word for word perfect. What people have commented on is that many of the changes have taken away from something in the story. There are a number of changes that have been great but just as many that do not work well. Whenever someone says something like this all I can think of are adaptions like the cartoon version of The Hobbit and more recently Starship Troopers - hey just be happy they used the name regardless of the quality.

Name me a person asking for it to be 100% verbatim.

What they do well, they do well, but when they strike, it's bad. Harrenhall - really liked everything about it, condensed, to the point - brough story lines together. Robb/battle - aside from Tywins forces maybe needing to eat fewer beans, liked how they did this. interesting change to have Robb and Jeyne meet before he gets injured. I think the only downside to that is that now they have have even a small amount of history it makes his decision later on more understandable whereas the book it really does come as a full surprise. Qarth - thought the speaker for the 13 was great... "we have received you." Was a little clunky in some ways but gets the relationship with Xaro and Dany started. Joffrey - Court room scene: well done. liked the background display of Sansa getting the white cloak and then Tyrion taking her out. Joffrey - bed room: oh crap, we forgot we don't have any nudity! we know Joffrey is a sick bastard - he just had a crossbow pointed at his betrothed in front of the court, he just had a Kingsguard start to beat his betrothed in front of the court. He got pleasure from showing his betrothed her fathers head on a spike. Tyrion - Lancel: Lancels new arrogance, Tyrions C game besting Lancel...well done. LF - anyone: "TV Petyr Baelish, I read Littlefinger, I know Littlefinger, Littlefinger was a favorite character of mine. TV Petyr Baelish, you're no Littlefinger". Not having Renly with the peach was a disappointment - just loved how that played out in the reading of it. Might be misremembering, but there were no gates where the Shadowbaby got Renly - is this one depicting Storms End? Since Renly is staying in a tent himself, the gates didn't seem to fit.

Why? There are a lot of varying reasons people have enjoyed the books - everyone (I believe) knows that it is not going to be scene for scene, word for word, but to just whitewash what has been read and hand wave away things that do concern fans I think is a disservice. While I have never chatted with them directly, I believe D&D do still visit the forums - and if they do i think they will see valuable feedback. We are the customer - someone said the series isn't being made for me, and they were wrong. it is being made for me, and you, Ran and the other posters here, the fans that don't post here and the people that haven't ever even seen the books. But if the producers can get voice of the customer and see what their audience sees as working, not working, etc then they should take it into consideration. As far as the episode...strongest of the season so far; the scenes for the NW recruits were well done, it might be a little bit of a stretch to truly believe that Lorch will believe the scrawny kid with greenhands is actually a blacksmith but overall I liked how they condensed the fight, chase and capture. Another small weakness with that scene was Lorch's sword after he pulled it out of Yorens back. I think the resolution to the Craster/Jon cliffhanger was weak. I've said enough on that in other threads. Same for Sansa/Shae. The whole tourney/brienne/renly & Catelyn was done well. It seemed they then realized they didn't have a scene with breasts in it and made one. I like the change to Marg in showing that she is a player in the game - we kind of get that from the books after a while, but without the full time to see what she does, speeding it up makes sense. Over all an 8, but at least the momentum is swinging back.

I agree..sort of. I think it is a valid question if asked appropriately. As has been said many times in the thread, no - some people have not read the books and don't have a frame of reference that someone who has read them may be coming from.

I don't think that is necessarily true - Cersei has shown she has no issue with having children killed for various reasons, including one of her own childhood friends.

So like I said earlier in the thread, why not use any of the existing cliffhangers in the books? Why make up one - and why make one up that doesn't flow? Actually, the show is being made for me, since I am one of those people you talk about watching it, just like it is made for you and every other viewer. My breathing is just fine - no need to worry about that. No, I'm not in the know about what they have written for future episodes - but why does that preclude questioning decisions on what they have shown us so far? They have made a very good adaption overall - but more than a few of the deviations they have chosen to make have not added anything to an all ready rich story. So please, notch down the self righteousness a little

So what was the point of Craster knocking out Jon? How did it add to the story? It was a contrived cliffhanger for no point other than "end of episode". The point most are trying to make is in that two minutes of screen time we get nothing from Sansa or Shae that develops anything related to the story. If it was to show that Sansa is becoming more aware of her surroundings & that this person might be a new spy - that was done in the first 15 seconds. After that it was pointless.

I actually like that there are different pronunciations - my last name has one silent letter and a Z in it but I've had at 30 variations on the name said to me, including being told I pronounce it incorrectly. Different people say things different ways is all - even within the same family. I'm ok with Sansa being a bitch to her - I think this is like some of other "sped up aptitude" character development we have seen. Sansa now sees Shae there as a spy for someone and the fact that she has no idea what to do to help Sansa reinforces it.