Ser Knute

1 hour ago, Ser Creighton said:

You know the thing about his season is they are kind of stalling.

Dany and Meereen. Dany gets the Dothraki, well we knew that one was coming, and it has not gone much past the books. Jorah, not even a real arc.  Ummm Meereen, well not much has happened there, they dumped the siege and Tyrion and Varys talk. We got a red priestess, and an Iron fleet is on the way. Has not actually gone past what was written really. It's different, Tyrion and Dany meet, and well not for very long, but that was expected at some point.

Arya, well they sort of gave us Mercy but sort of broke up the plot. She got some random villain to keep her a bit busy. She wants to leave, that has been the advancement.

Jon is back. Kind of blind if you didn't see that coming. But what is Jon doing? Essentially he got the Stannis plot which was basically scrapped last year.

Brans plot has hardly been on screen but we got Hodor's name, the creation of the others origin story and Bloodraven download. That plot has advanced. A lot.

Sansa, Sansa like Jon basically is playing a different role this season, like last. We got no Vale arc really.

Still waiting for Davos Mel confrontation.

Situation KL is pretty much where it has been fort awhile. Sparrow is taking power, Tommen is a putz, Marg is playing the game, Cersei is a time bomb.

Jaime finally got to the Riverlands, book 4.

The Hound is back, well not much different than the books. Though they just came out and said who he was. BwB plot? Well that's not really from the books and seems like filler, sort of like Arya and the Waif, Jon and Sansa, or Varys and Tyrion walking around Meereen.

The story has not advanced all that much, in some story arcs this season, rather it's filler. Some arcs are actually behind, like the riverlands and the hound. Some plots were cut but then replaced with different characters doing the same arc.

The did the Tower of Joy... sort of. That was from book one. We have seen some plot advancement in certain arcs like Bran, some filler in other arcs, some getting back to the books which has taken them backwards in the timeline, and some characters being blended into other roles and stories. Feels a bit like some stalling here.

 

Agree totally.  While there have been some decent moments, the season so far has been a lot of very little.  Almost every arc altered just enough to probably not be the same as the books so book readers aren't spoiled much if at all.

If we're down to roughly 10-11 episodes, a lot of material was wasted... and there seems to be even fewer reasons to have diverged from a lot of these plots that they have.  Dorne could not exist at all excepting for killing Myrcella.  The Sons of the Harpy are supposed to be filling me with terror at who they'll kill next... but no, they're content for now.  It won't even surprise me if the show just leaves Missandei or some unnamed advisor in Meereen while Dany takes her Khalasar west finally... they've got a 7 year deal with the slaver's, why should the show even bother with the knot?

Same with the North.  Of course they're having difficulty rallying the North to the Stark cause, if they all said yes too quickly there'd be very little drama.

All of Lady Olenna's appearances this season, pointless.  She came, made a crack about how she can smell the shit 5 miles away from KL and that was about as good as it got.  Acting as if Tommen didn't follow the Faith so he can be 'converted' then become the HS's pawn-king... that may happen in the books in some fashion, but it seems clear as a book reader this whole arc was/is filler, what was wrong with the faith withholding their blessing like the books?  A show of force by the Tyrells/Lannisters just nullifies any judgment Margaery had coming... all pretty easy changes that alter how the book's chapters will compare... but what are they waiting for?  Apparently they know the ending so why the stalling, unless to give time for TWoW to be out by next year's season start... 

I do like many aspects of the show but some of the choices they make are baffling.  If we're down to two seasons, shortened ones at that, they seem to be wasting time and material... but as long as we see a brothel and some tits, we'll forget all that might have been! 

1 hour ago, Lord Buckethead said:

I don't care much for Allisers way of seeing things, but I do believe that he at  least genuinely believes he is doing the right thing.  It is not really power hunger or hatred for Jon that drives him, or at least not just  that. He generally does what he thinks is best for the watch. 

I agree to an extent.  What really irks me about Alliser is his extreme inability to use common sense.  While he may have doubts about the Other threat, it's clear that LC Mormont believed, afterall he wasn't attacked by some random brother, they didn't just make up a story that Jon killed a wight... and Sam doesn't just fabricate corroboration from Cattle Black's library.  Surely Alliser and many other longstanding brothers have heard the tales.  So what exactly is PROOF enough for him to be on board?  Probably when a wight sticks his cold, dead hand down his throat shutting Alliser up for good.

I get that the show and even GRRM need an antagonist at the Wall to make Jon's preparation of the Watch difficult but this is one thing I find unbelievable, that someone with his experience is so seemingly willfully ignorant.  

What makes it even more absurd is his statement that Jon letting the Wildlings through will lead to peril for the Watch... immense HE let them through, Jon was at his mercy show-wise.  If he was so concerned he should've disobeyed that order, afterall to him it's all about the Watch right?  So he follows orders that puts the Order in the greatest peril as he sees it in his mind only to then commit treason against his LC AFTER the Wildlings are through... it just defies belief.  I get his plot purpose, but man is his intellect hard to grasp or believe.  It's about as believable as Roose never anticipating Ramsey would try to kill or usurp him.

Nitpicky... possibly but I just feel that part is a bit silly as far as reasoning and logic go.  I get the hatred of the Wildlings, but practically speaking the evidence and accounts by fellow brothers is too much to dismiss or to be ignored.

7 minutes ago, Hos the Hostage said:

After all the deviations from books, this felt like a book-reference heavy episode. (See what the 'faithful adaptation' has come down to).

>> Lyanna, and how good she is at riding, hints at her knowing how to fight.

>> Bran all grown-up. I wish he could walk again and be King in the North/Lord of Winterfell again. He was speaking on behalf of all fans when he said 'Can't we stay a little longer?' at Winterfell.

>> Theon was most emotional when he said 'Robb, who I betrayed'. I half-hoped him to say 'I should have died with him there'/

>> The way the scene shifted to that magnificent view of Pyke just after Theon saying 'Home'. Euron is awesome! Glad they kept one good line in - The first storm and the last. Also the part about people praying when they see his sails.

>> Sansa's first true smile since season snowcastle scene from S4, and glad it happens when thinking about Arya. Sophie was great in playing it subtle.

>> Tyrion reminiscing upon his childhood dreams. Fixed the effect of silly lines like "I'm friends with your mother" - Even human kids are not gonna fall for that! Except perhaps Sansa. I hope Tyrion and the dragons become bros. That moment when he unchained the first dragon to turn around and see the other dragon inches from his face - It was so much like Quentyn, but with happier outcomes.

>> I'm glad Melisandre did not kiss Jon to life. Makes me hope his change will be less like Beric or Lady Stoneheart.

>> Davos Seaworth is the Protector of Bastards.

>> Next time on GoT - Tower of Joy hype!

I actually think that the show might have chosen to do that on purpose, re: Jon/Mel.  If Mel gives him 'the kiss' then we have the awkward moments afterward... would be a little cheesy to have him wake while she's kissing him, and it would be a bit of awkward silence for the time between the kiss and his regaining consciousness.  I think it works well to have it be a bit like a cross between a death ritual (bathing the body, trimming hair for his view-in-state) and a resurrection ritual.  It differs from Thoros' revival of Beric, which is confusing, but I liked the scene's sort of subdued atmosphere.  It also highlights Mel's psuedo-ongoing crisis of faith.  Her whispering 'please' to the Lord of Light was a nice subtle nod that she is indeed acting on/with tentative hope/faith, but genuine in her request to the LoL to grant Jon a second life or however you want to characterize it.  No tricks, no masking any internal doubt with overt confidence, just her and her prayer.  Would've been really neat to have subtitles for her Valyrian, but not necessary.

This then also allows for the books to remain unspoiled should GRRM go a different route with Jon's resurrection.  I felt it was done simply and that it shouldn't have been too overstated even though it was a huge moment.  I had no problem with how the scene was done.

Anyone get the feeling that Arya is going to put the Waif on her list?  Might be a good show twist to get her in trouble with the HoB&W as she's got to get moving eventually... and like Jon staying dead, Aryan has about the same chance of becoming/staying 'no-one'.

Much more enjoyable to me than episode 1.

Props to the show for not trying to milk Jon's return any longer.  I felt that while it was a rather subdued ritual it fit.  I even felt that when Mel said please that was an interesting way of showing her crisis of faith.  She still seems as if she's not fully confident but what she did do was show faith... faith enough to continue the ritual through to completion... imagine how Tormund is going to feel after stalking away...  the camera focusing on Ghost made me think it was an ode to Jon's spirit residing within Ghost, very likely how the books will unravel as well.  

Good scenes with Bran, nice setup and foreshadowing for Meera and possibly even Hodor.

Pretty fair scenes in Meereen but the cock and pussy jokes feel quite juvenile, especially when they're capable of being much better orators/speakers.  Nice lil scene with the Dragons... let 'em loose!

A lil eh about the Sansa/Theon scene... not sure her character should let him go but I can live with it.

Good scenes in the Iron Islands, though fully expected, would've been cooler if Balon had stabbed Euron's eye out but it gets the ball rolling after being idle for so long.

Good scenes in KL, nice slow reveal about the Faith and their goals... gonna reach a head real soon.  I guess Jaime is back to being a D.I.C.K.... but he is more interesting in that sense.  

Some further setup with a few payoffs... wonder now if Ramsay will be the one to kill Roose in the books, totally saw this coming in the show just not so soon... glad to know ye Roose, take a seat with the rest of the dead cast.

Overall not bad, not fabulous but it had some really strong points.

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 

Maybe they flashed their breasts and the guards were mesmerized into submission-- just as D&D expect their audience to be with their crude dialogue.  And we're just supposed to believe that Jaime and Bronn magnanimously left Trystane to his own devices to potter around painting stones on the ship by himself after Myrcella had just died in suspicious circumstances.  Perhaps they were cowed by the Dornishmen who outnumbered them, although we were also expected to buy that Bronn and Jaime on foot with the three hands between them took out four mounted Dornish guards in the dunes. 

Last season they gave us 'bad pussy' for which they were thoroughly lambasted, so in response this season they give us an extra serving of leering sneering 'greedy bitch' and periodically lapse into a self-conscious parody of Monty Python (I'm thinking of the '5 best things' Dothraki debate, Davos's 'I want some mootin,' and Tyrion's silly non-joke 'you're not a boy because you don't have a cock'; let's all wince along with Varys...).  

Over at the 'watchers on the wall' site it's curious how there's a not-so-subtle peer pressure to be 'positive'...'  Cue Monty Python refrain: 'Always look on the bright side of life!'  It's amazing how motivated they are, bending over backwards to fill in D&D's gaping plot holes and justify their whimsical character assassinations.  Any criticism of D&D's writing is condemned as evidence of how 'spoiled' and ungrateful the fandom has become.  On the contrary, I would posit it's the opposite:  D&D are the spoiled ones.  The series is so wildly successful, they know that no matter what they do or write we're still going to be here hanging on their every (even if it is badly-written) word, and the ratings, money and accolades will keep pouring in. 

Does that answer your question as to 'why?'  Perhaps the question we ought to be asking is 'why not?'  People (I include myself in this number) are not going to stop watching, so why not push the envelope of bad writing and see what happens, or doesn't!  It's a good thing Dinklage has two Emmys under his belt, or they'd get rid of him just to shock/spite us.  But they know he's gold in the bank, so Tyrion is safe.  He will survive those dragons!

I also expect them to draw out Jon's fate over several episodes, milk it for all it's worth until the milk is sour on the tongue and curdles in the stomach. 

Agreed.  Kudos to Elio and Linda for being honest enough to give the show its just criticism and not censoring or even trying to strong-arm people with dissenting opinions.

I started as a show-watcher, then picked up the books.  I enjoy both and have no problem with the show diverging, it's the manner in which they do it and the writing they give to 'altered' storylines.  

No problem with Hotah dying, but like that?  It seems rather nonchalant, as if he's no better than a Lannister arms-man or some random Wildling.  Why bother casting him to do 'that'?  Couldn't any extra have done the same?  Nod a few times, say a line or two... boom, done, how much $ did we save for 'what matters'?  Doran dying... no problem, but in that manner suggests he's completely ignorant to his brother's paramour's volatility and capability... RIGHT after she disrespects him in trying to kidnap/murder Myrcella, much less what she said to his face.  It doesn't follow logic and makes these folks who are leaders, powerful leaders in their own right, seem no wiser or aware than the average peasant slaughtered by Gregor and his henchmen.

The show can and more importantly HAS done better.  

Yeah sure I'll watch, my HBO subscription isn't coming off the bill anytime soon, but when GRRM actually finishes... I doubt I'll be watching these seasons as much.  I appreciate many things they've done, their casting has been very good on the whole.  When I read now, I see Gwen Christie when I read Brienne, and Nicolai when I read Jaime... even their voices, same with Peter/Tyrion and so on... they've done many things well to be at the point they are with the show's popularity, it just makes one scratch their head in frustration when they allow their product to drop in quality.

I gave it a four and feel that was generous.

Where to start... ok, I like that we are taken right back into the season cliffhangers from 5, but then some of the 'choices' made just turned me off.

Dorne: why even bother with Hotah?  He spoke like three or four lines?  His greatest act is telling Jaime it would've been a good match when he was whole?  There was no reason to hire anything more than an extra for what he contributed, I chalk it up to weak plot/weak writing.

So Ellaria kills Doran, the leader of Dorne... It's not that she would do it that bothers me, I get her character and role, but not ONE of the guards made so much as a twitch?  Yawn, the Prince was just killed... time for lunch then?  Just pitiful, they should be embarrassed as writers.

The two Sand Snakes just appear in Blackwater Bay... I can live with that plot-hole, but then I'm supposed to believe Trystane is THAT dumb as to put his back to one thinking honor is on his side?  Laughably bad.

Cersei/Jaime: not horrible, but again Jaime is like a roller coaster, is he good, is he bad?  Bleh.  Powerfully acted, poorly written.

Margaery/High Sparrow: not bad, but didn't propel anything, just more wait and see.

Tyrion/Varys: probably the best scenes for acting, but felt like too little... I mean we ended the season with Varys giving Tyrion his expose on getting a handle on the Meereenese knot only to have Tyrion see another Red Priest preaching and he says 'trouble'?  So what changed at all from last season with him seeing Benerro, while with Varys no less?  Hell if we know, they forgot to let the audience in on it!  A lil more meat instead of skin and bone would be nice... this isn't a comic afterall, we can handle some compelling dialogue.

Jorah/Daario... Daario doesn't act like his character is, imho.  Otherwise, not bad, they're on the trail and was about what should've been expected.

Dany/Khalisar: fair... typical horselord banter and Dany seems both a little less scared than she might' e been in the past but still seems annoyed that they didn't just jump at her command and that's a bit dumb to me.  Did the show forget that she's well aware of Vaes Dothrak and the Dosh Khaleen?  I didn't...

Sansa/Theon/Brienne/Podrick: decent chase and fight scene, a little silly that Pod had to help Sansa remember the 'oath'... but ok.  I liked that she mirrored Catelyn's oath but with having Pod have to remind her it seems to diminish the scene some... it would've been more powerful had she done it on her own and have Pod help her out with some other custom.  One of the better sequences but still not 'on their game' in terms of writing.

The Wall: probably the best scenes though Davos not being broken up about Shireen and/or Stannis stuck out... I guess nothing gets this guy down!  Good dialogue with Alliser and Davos.  Nice to see some dissent within the Watch and even that Alliser is forthright about his mutiny... foolish in terms of his long-term plans as he's well aware that they just let enough Wildlings through who were all part of a battle with the true enemy at Hardhome and now have some semblance of allegiance to Jon, to basically end the NW... but whatever, even GRRM has the Watch mutineering on Jon with Wildlings right there... at least here it seems they're either in the gift or at least not all hanging out at Castle Black.

Mel: good scene.  I think it speaks way more to book readers than show watchers alone, they may not quite get it, but we see her confidence is shattered, not only in herself but perhaps her God too.  She takes off her glamour and takes a good hard look at herself in the mirror... literally.  She even beds down which we book readers know she has yet to do... all good information though possibly hard to pickup for show only viewers.

I hope the coming episodes are better else it's going to be a long season... no wonder Ran chose not to bother with the show reviews any longer.  I can only imagine the eyeroll count Elio and/or Linda would have for this one.

Another pretty solid episode. And again we have a whole bunch of posts from folk who haven't yet sussed that the show isn't the books.

The gift is love if folk haven't worked it out. Gilly and Sam, Tommen and Margery, Myrcella and Trystin, Jorah and Danny, Not putting the house of black and white in the episode seems to be deliberate counterpoint.

I thought the candle episode would end badly. Theon needs to find his inner strength first. But will Sansa trust him a second time? Ramsay telling Sansa about Jon makes perfect sense, he is toying with her.

The point of the Dorne plot seems pretty obvious to me: The sand snakes were playing with Bronn. She had used the poison in the fight but they both lost and ended up in prison so there is nothing to be gained from letting him die. But that doesn't mean she can't toy with him first. Given that the sand snakes have done nothing in the books, this is an improvement on them.

This is also about establishing Myrcella as a rival to Tommen. They have given her an opportunity to tell Jamie she has switched sides.

The KL part was done pretty well. I think it clear that the queen of thorns was given Lancel by LF. She then let the High Sparrow know that if she doesn't get what she wants, she is going to expose him as a hypocrite as he already knows about Cersei's adultery. That coupled with the threat to starve KL should be enough to make him bend.

But most likely, Cersei was his target from the start.

What the Tyrell's probably haven't figured out is that the High Septon is going to go after Cersei for the incest. And that threatens to bring Tommen down as well and Margery with him.

And I'd agree with this as well. My first thought was Lancel, but of course a lot of people feel he's spilled to the HS already. I'd argue even if he has, his punishment for being complicit in the murder of the King has got to be worth more punishment than Marg or Loras. That IS the leverage that Lady Olenna would need.

This. LF's gift is Olyvar recanting, saying Cersei paid him, threatened him, etc. Neatly paves the way for Loras and Margaery's release while keeping Cersei on track for the WOS and maintaining the HS's moral standards.

I can see this as a show-devised outcome. Only, I'm kind of thinking that recanting is only the tip of the iceberg with Lady Olenna. I think poor Olyvar would be subjected to the Queen of Thorns' thorns.

Barry and Aemon die in the next episode.

BTW, anyone else thinks that Jon will tell Stannis to have a detour at the mountain clans to recruit them and free Deepwood Motte? In that, he will also tell Stannis to leave Mel behind just like in the books.

That was my initial thought but I'm not sure now. If it happens it seems it'll be with very little setup. To me it seems with the changes the show made, having no Freys or Manderleys, that Stannis' Northern Clan tour might not be needed for the show's purposes. DIdn't LF state that Stannis has the larger Army at present?

Since we don't have Asha/Yarra at Deepwood now, I'm guessing that the show is going to gloss right over that. I'm even of the opinion now that there won't be a Battle of Ice like we expect. The way the show has changed the plot arcs/combined them, I'm thinking this is actually going to differ greatly than in the books. I feel like they're going to have Mel accompany Stannis; the only problem with this line of thought is, if Mel's with him I think he "HAS" to win; which of course may not be how it goes in the books. If Mel is left behind again, I think that might be a precursor for Mel looking elsewhere for her savior.

My other thought is that if Stannis doesn't take Mel, that while he's gone, either Selyse offers her Shireen up after Mel sees a vision, or Mel does it of her own accord.

Ultimately I think they're working this one almost backwards. Stannis will relieve Winterfell BEFORE rallying the North, which allows the show to not necessarily spoil TWOW but if it does it'll be in a way that doesn't completely ruin it for when we do read it. I mean we can see this in almost every plot. In KL, Loras is taking Marg's spot in the accusations of the Faith, in Meereen, we're not likely to get a Battle of Fire, LF has Sansa outside the Vale so what he's doing there in the books is preserved. Brienne trailing Stannis might be a spoiler, remains to be seen I guess.