Anya, Vengeance Demon

Do you have the quote? Because I'm pretty sure that he never does. Roza: It doesn't have to cover the eyes like the blindfold, so long as the hood of the cloak shields them from the light.

Not necessarily. Not only has his face been covered and hooded this entire time, they'd more likely be concerned by things like, say, the fact that he's a walking corpse who neither sleeps, eats, nor breathes.

Bloodraven has been mentioned in the main books, and specifically in AFFC, where we learn that he was sent to the Wall and eventually became Lord Commander. But even if he hadn't appeared before, nothing's stopping GRRM from establishing him as somebody that the normal reader would be interested in during A Dance With Dragons, particularly if (as appears from this chapter) the reveal of Coldhands' identity won't occur until late in the book or perhaps even TWoW. GRRM did something similar with the Golden Company in AFFC, and I bet a lot of "normal" readers are interested in what they're up to now. ETA: A better example, actually, would be Marwyn, who was mentioned in passing literally three times in the first three books, attracting the attention of only the most hardcore fans. Then he gets a big scene at the end of book four, and suddenly lots of people want to know what's up with Marwyn.

I tend to think that Coldhands is controlling the elk and the ravens myself. (It seems weird that the three-eyed crow would be spending all his time keeping CH and the ravens on track when presumably there are other things on his mind.) But besides that, it seems to me that if he's an automaton under the control of the three-eyed crow, it really doesn't matter who Coldhands is: the dramatic upshot of that reveal would seem to be nothing. The body could be Hot Pie's in that case, and it wouldn't matter because Coldhands the person would really be the three-eyed crow in another guise.

I wasn't thinking that Benjen would necessarily show his dead, lifeless face. But he could have at least said who he was, and proved his identity to Bran some other way: "Remember when I come over and you told me the names of every castle on the Wall in order, and I said I couldn't have done so well myself?" or something along those lines. (Although, having said that, it's true that Beric says that he has trouble remembering things like that after dying so many times. So maybe he wouldn't have any trivia left.)

[quote name='wvlr' post='1333986' date='Apr 29 2008, 13.32']As was said earlier - even in AFfC the Blackfish was flying the Direwolf banner. That would normally be pointless at this point, UNLESS he knows SOMETHING![/quote] Not pointless at all. Why would the Blackfish take down the Direwolf banner, unless he was conceding defeat? As long as he's still resisting the Lannisters, concern for the morale of the garrison would lead him to keep flying the Stark banner. Also, forgive me if I'm wrong, but Jaime doesn't think of it as weird, does he? And nobody else that I recall remarks on it either. If there was something odd in his flying of the Stark banner, I think GRRM would have signalled that to us.

[quote name='Atreides' post='1330954' date='Apr 26 2008, 22.02']Maybe both then? Because with Asha at Deepwood Motte I don't see how Theon would get to her. Where would he go is he escapes the Boltons except to the wall? Also, since according to the other spoilers Stannis finds Asha, they might both end up at the Wall for a time.[/quote] Well, clearly he hasn't reached her by her first chapter, and that's well in ADWD; still, though, I think there's going to be a lot of Roose and Ramsay before he leaves their company.

[quote name='jipijapa' post='1329624' date='Apr 25 2008, 13.37']I also seem to remember that people generally thought the black fish was headed to the wall at the end of feast to check it out.[/quote] I don't think that's true, actually. The general opinion seems to be that the Blackfish will hook up with Lady Stoneheart and her lovable band of vigilantes. After all, if Blackfish wanted to go to the Wall, he could have surrendered with the castle rather than escaping. (I guess one could argue that he expected the Lannisters to renege somehow and execute him, but it's not clear why he alone of the garrison would reach that conclusion while Robin Ryger and Desmond Grell--who have no particular reason to trust the Lannisters more--clearly didn't.)

[quote name='cybroleach' post='1328587' date='Apr 24 2008, 18.15']Having a rep of always smiling? Is a little thin, i think which makes it more likely that he did travel to Karhold or Arnolf(since we're assuming it's him) was at some feast with Lord Rickard at Winterfell, but wouldn't you expect an old bald hunchback noble to stick out in Theon's mind.[/quote] After months of torture, when he's having trouble remembering his own name and figuring out what year it's supposed to be? No, I would not.

[quote name='cybroleach' post='1328548' date='Apr 24 2008, 17.22']It's interesting that the 'second lord' seems to know Theon based on such a personalized comment, yet Theon has no recolection of the man.[/quote] I don't know that the second lord necessarily knows him. He probably knows (as Robb and many of his bannermen themselves learned) that Ramsay had Theon in his dungeons, and then when presented with a man who still retained some noble bearing yet looks like shit, he comes to the logical conclusion. It's entirely possible that Theon went with Ned and the Stark family to Karhold once or twice--hence the "always smiling" comment, although that could be from reptutation--but that doesn't mean that Arnolf would know Theon without the contextual clues.

[quote name='Maia' post='1328206' date='Apr 24 2008, 11.52']But didn't Ramsey already laid claim to the Hornwood Lordship? Formally, that's where his title could derive from. And of course he may be planning to bum off Roose, but I just don't see Roose as any easy mark. IMHO, he is more intelligent than his son and not deranged.[/quote] Of course, you're right. I'd forgotten about his brief marriage to Lady Hornwood. And I don't expect Ramsay's plan to necessarily work either; most people who would otherwise be tempted to follow him have to consider that Ramsay is actively sadistic while Roose is simply cold pragmatism personified. I'd much rather have to deal with the latter than the former.

Cybroleach: I don't think we've seen anybody called Lord because they married the current Lady of a noble house before. Tyrek Lannister didn't become known as Lord Tyrek after marrying Lady Hayford. Certainly he wasn't called Lord Tyrek _before_ his marriage.

My impression of the timeline is slightly different than Tom's. In my view, Arnolf signs up with Stannis first, after Stannis has arrived in the North but before Tywin's death becomes commonly known. He realizes on some level that Stannis is most likely a losing proposition, but he feels he has no choice; Tywin Lannister will have his House out root and branch. Then Tywin dies, which gives him the flexibility to put out feelers to Ramsay Bolton and see about getting in on the winning side. He presumably has to make some offer to betray Stannis, but that's easily done. Also, the most obvious reason to think that Ramsay is taking over Roose's position: he makes everybody call him Lord. His squires (Big and Little Walder), Reek, etc. People in Westeros don't just toss those titles around.

Angalin: I was assuming that she would die after she's produced an heir for Ramsay, but that would still count as early, no? [quote name='The Scabbard Of the Morning' post='1323917' date='Apr 21 2008, 23.28']Of course Ramsey would want someone to verify Arya's identity. Because that piece of information is important.[/quote] I think you forgot the part of your post where you make an argument in support of your position. "Of course X. X!" is not a winning argument. And even if Ramsay wanted to know whether fake-Arya really was Arya, he hardly needs to bring Theon out of the dungeons and give him the possibility of escape in order to do so. Since you agree that it won't change his behavior, Ramsay could just as easily take Theon out of his cell briefly when he arrives back in the Dreadfort with his bride in tow. [quote]Remember, Ramsey knows that Bran and Rickon are alive. In fact I suspect he secretly has men looking for rumors of wolves traveling with people all over the north.[/quote] Actually, the Liddle that Bran meets in his second chapter of ASoS confirms as much.

[quote name='Atreides' post='1323566' date='Apr 21 2008, 19.23']About King's Landing having military superiority-at the moment, they really don't. Sure they have the Redwyne Fleet, but it's sailing to meet the Ironborn on the other side of the continent. And Aurane Waters has the rest. And now that the Boltons have Moat Cailin, even the massive Tyrell army would be hard pressed to invade the North. If (once?) the Boltons know that King's Landing no longer has a fleet, they don't have to worry about immediate repercussions.[/quote] I mean superiority as of when this chapter takes place, i.e., the beginning of AFFC. From Ramsay's POV (assuming that he, like Littlefinger, will be unable to foresee the depth of Cersei's incompetence), the Lannister-Tyrell alliance is simply too powerful to ignore no matter who 'Arya' turns out to be.

[quote name='wvlr' post='1323334' date='Apr 21 2008, 17.20']A. If she is fake and KL knows this, then they hold something over his head.[/quote] Not particularly. This is the Arya Stark 'discovered' by Littlefinger, and delivered up by Tywin Lannister; King's Landing has staked its credibility on it. And in any case, King's Landing has something much more important hanging over his head: a substantial military superiority. [quote]B. The same with his "allies" that know the truth.[/quote] If they could prove what they said. If they can't, it's Joffrey's bastardy all over again. [quote]c. Also, a real Arya, is more usable in court where he is entertaining "questionable" lords that might use the "False" Arya knowledge against him.[/quote] Again, can they prove it? [quote]A fake Arya would have to be kept "out of view" where as a real Arya would be "Flaunted". A fake Arya would need to die early, where as a Real Arya that he was able to "Turn" to his cause could become an even more usefull tool.[/quote] Look at how Ramsay treated Lady Hornwood. Chances are, 'Arya' will be kept out of view and will die early no matter what.

B's M & wvlr: Why would it matter to Ramsay whether or not his bride was really Arya Stark or not? She serves the same purpose either way.

[quote name='cybroleach' post='1323092' date='Apr 21 2008, 15.16']Sure they know Theon is scum and will see he's been tortured but having him add his word is likey a little better than no word or word from a nobody.[/quote] I'm not sure I follow. The northern lords will forget that he's a notorious oathbreaker whose word can't be trusted, and that as a hostage he has every reason to lie (to save himself further torture), and give him any credence at all because... why, exactly? Because they've _heard_ of him? That's preposterous. In any case, the northern lords will publicly state that fake-Arya is the genuine article to the extent that it benefits them. The fate of Stannis' story about Joffrey should prove instructive: Olenna and Margaery know full well that Tommen is illegitimate, and that doesn't cause an annulment because it wouldn't serve Tyrell interests. They won't need the word of an oathbreaker to convince them to go along; the political situation as they understand will guide them one way or another..

[quote name='Loras' post='1323061' date='Apr 21 2008, 15.02']Also everyone believed that Theon Turncloak killed Bran and Rickon when he said he did, but there was no proof that the bodies were the Stark kids; why would this be any different other than the Stark kid in question is living this time rather than dead?[/quote] They were the right age and body type, they were displayed in their own clothing and produced after an extensive search for Bran and Rickon, and the two boys were not publicly seen thereafter. What's more, nobody at Winterfell--not even Maester Luwin--disputed that they were dead. Westeros doesn't have CSI; they make do with what they have, and the evidence on offer seemed to be enough. It wasn't simply Theon's word.

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1322962' date='Apr 21 2008, 14.19']One obvious reason to bring Theon, of all people, "to war" with him is for some sort of stratagem or emissary against the remaining Ironborn garrison of Moat Cailin. They might have a hard time recognizing him at first, but there would be an intimidation value: 'this is what's going to happen to [i]you[/i]'. OTOH, isn't the garrison so tiny at this point that there's hardly any point in being so sneaky? Maybe there is because MC is so hard to take, and the Ironmen will be much warier than the Northmen that they took it from were.[/quote] That makes more sense than the idea that Theon is needed to 'confirm' fake-Arya's identity. Although it doesn't explain why Ramsay is being coy around the other nothern lords; why not just say that, if that's what he has in mind. [quote]If Ramsay does indeed have plans to kill his father, he'd be smart not to use Dreadfort men, since their loyalty to Roose would be greater than their loyalty to him. But is Theon physically and spiritually up to playing the role of assassin? He doesn't sound good for much of anything just now.[/quote] His physical constitution can be improved somewhat once Ramsay starts to actually feed him. I wouldn't expect much of Theon's strength of character (never his strong suit), but I think it's reasonable for Ramsay to believe that Theon's constant terror will keep him in line, particularly if Theon is given some hope of reprieve once the deed is done. (That hope might be as simple as, once you kill my father, I'll kill you quickly and you won't have to suffer any more.)

[quote name='Besselfunction' post='1322912' date='Apr 21 2008, 14.00']What if Ramsay himself doesnt know whether he's marrying the real Arya Stark?[/quote] For Ramsay's purposes, it doesn't really matter whether she's the real Arya Stark or not. Unless Jon decides to come a'calling (and I think that's highly unlikely), nobody's going to say openly that Jeyne Poole is anything other than Arya Stark, the trueborn daughter of Winterfell. I don't think we can accuse Ramsay of sentimentality in this regard.

Benjen: Theon is well-known and infamous in the north [i]for being a betrayer and a turncloak whose oaths count for nothing[/i]. I wouldn't use John Walker Lindh as a reference at a job interview, and I wouldn't use Theon to give my realm legitimacy. I'm genuinely surprised that people can't see the problem here.

[quote name='Bran's Muffin' post='1321744' date='Apr 20 2008, 13.56']As to why he would bring Theon with him to meet fake Arya, Theon was kept as Eddard's ward so he would've had more contact with Arya that some random person at Winterfell. There's no way for Ramsay to know that Arya liked to hang out with the smallfolk. He would naturally assume Theon was the best bet.[/quote] Not at all. Highborn girls have regular contact with any number of servants, from maesters to men-at-arms to stableboys to maids and on and on. And even if Theon did have some credibility boost from the regular contact, there's still the issue (that everybody's eliding, apparently) that nobody can trust him. The north in particular would hate him, but I'm not sure why Stannis would be more credulous (given that he's generally sour and suspicious by nature).

[quote name='Loras' post='1321714' date='Apr 20 2008, 14.22']Maybe the reason is that he is a Greyjoy, an heir to one of the other kings? SO if Theon verifies that Arya is Arya Stark then it must be so, Theon doesn't know that Balon is dead at this point.[/quote] First off, Theon doesn't know that but presumably Ramsay does (unless this chapter takes place _before_ the Red Wedding, and before any chapter in AFFC), and it's Ramsay who is making the decision. And secondly, isn't Theon's word basically worthless in the north at this point? Admittedly it goes against the Greyjoy interest, but I think most northerners would sooner conclude that Theon was turning his cloak again to ingratiate himself with his captors. Somebody who was a loyal Winterfell servant for years, however, would have the sort of legitimacy that Theon pissed away already.

[quote name='Jughead of the Round' post='1321495' date='Apr 20 2008, 08.56']I have a feeling Theon may be called upon to 'verify' the fake Arya in front of the other northern lords at Moat Cailin, and will most likely fail at this once he realizes who the fake Arya is.[/quote] Umm... maybe. But while Ramsay is not necessarily as deft as his father, why would he choose Theon Turncloak, murder of Robb Stark's heirs and traitor in the eyes of the north, to verify the identity of Arya Stark? He's got other Winterfell servants around; he could just as easily have brought one of them along (after cleaning them up, of course). He's the least trustworthy man to the people the Boltons need to convince. You might as well resurrect Joffrey for the task. I think I hold with Besselfunction instead; Theon's task will involve killing Roose, so that Ramsay can become Warden of the North.