jet199
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Only dead fish swim with the tide ;)
No, seriously, I admire her courage. Only I think her well reasoned opinion is not so unpopular among those who do not spend all day in web debates.
Some comments from below that article.
*****
I am a rape survivor. Thank you, so much, for writing this defense. This is the first time I have felt Game of Thrones really did justice in portraying a rape scene, and I walked away from it shaken and upset but feeling stronger for having seen it. I recognized in it that Game of Thrones was not going to let people get away, that they needed to see it, to confront these things, and I did not feel any of it was unnecessary, avoidable, or poorly done. Even the shot of Theon's face was important. It remains to be seen if Game of Thrones can handle the aftermath well, but we shall see.When I watched this scene, I felt that my story was finally been witnessed, that people would know what it was like, how it could be, the truth through all the fake depictions, and that was very important to me. But the backlash that resulted made me lose faith in the ability of people to deal with it. People would rather be comfortable than bear witness to the experience of literally millions of survivors. The number of arguments that "Sansa didn't deserve it" as if anyone does, or "now she is ruined/weak" were particularly difficult to get through. It isn't true. Survivors deal with self-blame on exponential levels, half even committing suicide because this is what society tells us. Your defense of the scene has given me strength again and was necessary and important. Thank you.*****As another survivor, I have to agree with you. The other thing is that people are not aware of how STRONG you have to be or become to have your soul survive a rape. Especially in our culture where rape is frequently treated as a joke, as a failing on the part of the survivor, as the FAULT of the survivor, as a "boys will be boys" no-big-deal thing ... This scene was done RIGHT. It showed the brutality without actually having it on screen.I also think that this is the situation that will start to "wake" Theon up. It is different to endure your own abuse, it becomes unendurable when you witness someone that you care about or used to care about being abused. I survived domestic abuse (which included marital rape) and it wasn't until I saw one of my step-daughters being abused by my then-husband that I stood up and left.*****Thank you. As a fellow survivor, I actually felt that this was the first time the show depicted rape in a non-exploitative way. I've been much more offended by people saying that this scene has made Sansa "weak" again or that it has "reversed" all her progress thus far. I hate that assumption.*****You're not alone. As a survivor, I felt this was exactly what should have been shown. She couldn't resist, she wasn't beaten into submission, she was just forced to do what she didn't want to do. -
Just coming in on this topic thread and from the first page, I just have to say: BRAVO jet199! There was so much about that post that was so amazing and so true.
QFT, all that. Not just epic on this topic, I think it's one of the better posts I have ever read, anywhere. And I've read a lot of posts.
Cheers. I think really we are dealing with the emotional fall out of this more than anything. People didn't want Sansa to get raped, I did not want Sansa to get rape and hated it. We have all this horror and anger that we have to pin on something but saying rape shouldn't be shown or shouldn't be shown happening to certain people is not the answer.
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D&D exchanged fArya for Sansa because they knew the audience wouldn't care as much about a minor character getting abused. They were right and now half of the fandom is in pieces over the storyline.
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Here's my attempt to be grown up about Sansa's arc.
I don't get why people think that Sansa getting in a bad situation means that her last scene of season 4 doesn't make sense. Character arcs don't go need to learn something, learn it , win. They usually have characters trying many multiple tactics to get to their goal or even repeating the same mistakes over and over until they succeed. A 2 hour movie will usually 4 or 5 different screw ups by the main character before they finally get on the right track so an 8 season epic fantasy season should have quite a few more than that. In real life most people do continually make the same mistakes, get in the same holes and continue the same habits while somebody completely changing the way they react to situations or changing their world view is usually very difficult once or twice in a decade event and fiction reflects this.I think the trouble is that people have gotten to respect LF too much. This means that Sansa turning into LF 2.0 is not seen as an obviously bad thing in the way that, say, Arya become no one is. Really all the characters on apprenticeship type arcs are being set up to fail and it is just that some are more obvious than others. We know all the time that no matter how well Dany does with organising Meereen she will be leaving but with Jon we don't realise that being leader of the NW is not his ultimate role until his final chapter. Similarly with Sansa we think she is safe because we have not seen the end of her arc but it may well be that what happens in the show with Ramsey is not dissimilar to what happens with Harry. Being smart at politics doesn't stop someone being sexually naive. Wearing a black dress did not turn a teenage girl into a seductress.I think the rape is not meant to empower her like in some daft Hollywood film but it will change her. It will stop her trusting LF and make her more self-reliant. Hopefully it will drive a wedge between her and LF that no amount of his smarming on his part will be able to heal (and without any "LF killed your father and tried to kill your brother" info dump). I think the show is revealing that the point of Sansa's character was never to become a player (which sounds pretty disgusting and stupid now we have seen the effects of such game playing on a well loved character rather than just a stand in) but to be someone who decides they don't want to play LF and Varys's game and goes their own way. This ties in with Sophie's comments about Sansa wanting to start a new house, she wants to succeed on her merits and forge her own destiny rather than play the Stark card. There's a good chance that Sansa will become more like Stannis, living by his own moral code and not even trying to play the game, rather than LF. It didn't work for Ned because he was ultra-honourable and politically inept but Sansa is neither of those things.This episode not only showed what a sham and risk arranged marriages are through Sansa's arc but also in Marg's story. Power through marriage is a great dynastic tool just so long as you are not the one in the marriage pact. Even if she had been married to someone who seemed like Mr Nice Guy she would still have been at risk of the same treatment on her wedding night. I think LF and Lysa and Dany and Drogo are relevant here as to how show Sansa might react. LF was disgusted by Lysa, she demanded sex, and threatened his life if he did not give her what she wanted lets not forget, but he put up with it as he had a plan from the start and was just waiting for an opportunity it push her out the moon door. Dany had no idea what she was doing, she had months of living hell until she learned to please Drogo and had to internalise her need to please him to survive as love. From Sophie's comment about Sansa needing to try and understand Ramsay and how to please him we can see she will probably go down the Dany path at first but we also know (as we have been blatantly told) she has a plan and I expect that part of her to win out by the end of the season even if it is just jumping over the wall with Theon to find Stannis. Whatever happens I bet that show Sansa will never see political marriage as an acceptable tool again.That Vanity Fair article is disgusting. It is either saying that women who have power and agency don't get raped or that women who are raped no longer have power or agency. Seriously some of the anti-show comments are far more messed up about rape than those trying to work out what it means in the show. Does it mean Sansa is stupid because she should have seen it coming? No because, as I have said above, anyone in that situation, no matter how nice the other party seems, is vulnerable to the same thing happening to them. People worrying about Sansa's arc not working now she has lost her virginity or that she might be pregnant. No one was worried about whether Jeyne might be carrying Ramsay's child as she was being beaten or getting frostbite. Neither Cersei, Dany or Lysa had their marriage prospects dented by being a mother. People might also want to remember that in the original story GRRM planned for Sansa to have Joffery's child so it's not completely against her character.I also want to point out that it is clear from the leaked story outline that GRRM split a lot of his original characters main into three or four different characters as he expanded the story. It may well have been that the original character to have taken Jeyne Poole's role was Sansa but GRRM in the end decided that he wanted her to spend more time around LF. The original story may well have had a young mother Sansa being raped by evil Jaime and we just read the fractured shards of that story. GRRM is repeating is "the same story told differently" thing on his blog again. I would believe him rather than trying to put words in his mouth.
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In book meereenese prostitutes are the red graces and they are firmly part of the establishment. The angry show harpy whore might be D&D's version of the Green Grace (if D & D were going to do the Green Grace this is how they would do her) and maybe she is actually orchestrating the whole thing rather than being just a helping hand. In episode 10 we will probably get a long, dull speech from her about why prostitution, fighting pits and slavery are great and why Dany is bad. Then Drogon will come down and kill them all.
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I think Asha has decided that she can't save Theon so goes for the least bad option.
I can see this playing out badly for her later on if Theon is saved by someone else or cleared of his crimes. This is the second time she has given up on him from Theon's point of view. It could be the thing that pushes Theon to ally with Stannis, who would just him as a puppet ruler of the Iron Islands, or Bran, via the weirnet to be his agent in the North, rather than Asha and her plan for a second kingsmoot.
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I know this really isn't the place for this, but...no offense, you seem in complete denial of what's going on...so get ready for GRRM to be "hated".
HBO will not delay or have a break between seasons. I guarantee it. I will bet you a hardcover copy of A Dream of Spring...there is a momentum behind the show, they're not going to derail that for GRRM to catch up. He's had 5 years to catch up (4 seasons and pre-production, so probably closer to 6 or 7 years since Dance was largely already written) and we don't even have a release date yet. D&D know GRRM catching up is a nonsensical notion at this point and they along with HBO are not going to entertain the thought. That's why they met with him...so they can figure out how to finish this up. GRRM is in total denial and wasting time with way too many peripheral projects.
At the very least Bran & Co, Brienne & Co and Sansa/Littlefinger will have plot next season that has not been written yet. Possibly Dany as well.
The show will pass the books by, believing otherwise at this point is delusional. GRRM's publishers let slip and then retracted that WoW was not going to be released until 2015...so if we're VERY lucky, it will be out before season 6 airs in 2016.
Sure, there's a possibility that an 8th season can be added if there's just too much going on to encompass in two seasons in the last two books. But season 6 will be material from Winds of Winter for the majority of the characters. 2017 would then be season 7 and 2018 a highly unlikely season 8. There is no way on earth GRRM will have a DoS out before then.
It probably has been written, years ago.
That is why D&D can take Arya's killing in TWOW and use it in the first episode because a lot of this stuff is finished and the show production team have access to it. When he wrote ADWD GRRM rewrote a Tyrion dream chapter 7 times then scrapped it and wrote the Daznak's Pit scene from about 5 different POVs. This is what holds him up, a couple of problem characters, not the whole story. GRRM had most of Jon's stuff near enough done 10 years before the ADWD was released. It wouldn't surprise me if the characters who will go into TWOW territory in season 5 are also in this position. We know that GRRM had a chapter for Sansa which he moved to the next book and the battle for Meereen.
Also I am slightly more cynical than you in that I think there is a good chance that the release dates for future books will be timed to coincide with the show for marketing purposes. It wouldn't surprise me if the release date for TWOW is the week before season 5 starts.
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agreed
but the breakup scene with tyrion and shae would go a long way to justify shaes behavior later. like they say "hell hath no fury etc"
why did he have to breakup with her. just put a bag over her head and toss her in a ship to pentos. DONE.
lord tywin is not what his mask shows. he is quite capable of passionate acts. but the order of elia's murder is not so much an act of passion but a rational (and horrible) act.
It seemed to me that Varys was overly interested in getting Shae to Pentos. Does anyone think that he was planning on sending her to Illyrio so that they would have a hold over Tyrion? She might have become their hostage if she had accepted Varys' offer or got on the boat in the current episode. Still better than what did happen to her I suppose.
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That's were Marg places it, yet when Tyrion picks it up , from the camera angle it seems closer to Olenna than where it was put down.
That might be a continuity error.
Or maybe in the pigeon hooha it got moved.
I notice oddly that before Sansa hands the cup to Tyrion her left hand passes over the top of the cup.
Then Marg handles the cup and we really can't see where her hands are all the time.
(Now I don't think Sansa dropped the crystal in the cup, but it's odd.)
Just saying.
It's just the camera angle which makes it look like the cup if in front of Olenna. The camera is taking a shot on a diagonal from in going from the cup, on the corner of Joff's table, across to the other table where Olenna is sitting. The perspective in the shot also gives it away. The cup is very big in the foreground with Olenna small in the background, this shows she is a few yards away. If the cup had been in front of her on her table it would have appeared smaller on screen. Maybe someone who is good with that sort of thing can draw a diagram of the camera's line of sight.
This isn't a continuity error, they have purposely chosen these camera angles to make it look like the cup next to Olenna when it wasn't. This trick worked really well and they also used distraction to draw away people attention when Marg puts the cup down so people miss where she has put it. They have put a lot of work into making it seem like the the cup was with Olenna on a casual viewing but nowhere near her on closer inspection. They want there to be a double meaning.
I think this is because we are still going to get the QOT did it reveal from LF so they need people to think she had the opportunity but there will be a second reveal, maybe in the next book, that the poisoner was someone else. LF could not really know who actually put the poison in the cup as he was not there and there has always been scepticism about Olenna putting the poison in the cup as she is too short to reach it and others have more opportunity.
So our suspects in order of probability are Marg, Sansa or Tyrion (or the poison was in the pie but I wont complicate things with that theory).
Marg has the best access to the cup. If it is Marg the it is not a good plan because if Tyrion had not reacted to Joff then Marg would have been the only one with access to the cup and you know that Cersei wants rid of Marg as much as Tyrion. Unless everyone had bought the choking lie then Marg would've been a dead woman. There is also a big risk that Joff could have asked Marg to take a slip after she had put the poision in but it also works the other way in that once she puts the poison in the cup she knows to stop drinking and doesn't need a secret signal from anyone. The Tyrells bleating about it being terrible because Marg was drinking from the same cup could be to cover the fact she did it.
If it is Marg then it could be revealed in the next book, in or around her trial. I imagine Cersei could be gloating about Marg's honour being lost and Marg throwing back at her "Oh, I forgot to mention, I killed your son. I win".
Sansa has motive and opportunity however I think I saw Tyrion looking into the cup after Sansa gives it to him. This would mean if Sansa did it then Tyrion knows and let it happen. This would/might be a change from the books but not too big a change because Tyrion certainly suspects Sansa and his defence is partly hampered by the fact that he thinks she had good reasons for wanting Joffrey dead and so wont blame her.
Olenna could have put the jewel into Sansa's hand after taking it from her necklace. There are a few frames where Sansa and Olenna are talking but their hands are out of view. Olenna's words about coming to Highgarden could be hints that Sansa has a chance to leave Tyrion and the Tyrells will help her. Sansa could work out the jewel is poison on her own. However this theory works better if the original target for the poison was Tyrion whose death would free Sansa to marry again (also he is known for his love of wine and sitting right next to Sansa) but Sansa took the opportunity to kill Joffrey instead.
This theory is crackpot as it relies on Sansa's dodgy memory but if we get her talking about the un-kiss on the show then it is a possibility that her memory problems will have a real purpose in the plot. Sansa's POV chapter after the PW is weird, she laughs when she is told she has a good heart, she knows the gem was used in the murder, but not how, when it really shouldn't even occur to her, she outright accuses Dontos of murder. Why doesn't she just assume the amethyst was loose and fell out? It could be this chapter is weird because Sansa is re-writing her memories as the chapter progresses.
Tyrion has motive and it is also possible that Olenna gave him the jewel when the hands were hidden. Tyrion picks up the cup like he knows something is wrong with it and Joffrey points to him. The problem is that books Tyrion's POV makes not mention of poisoning Joff (except maybe once later) or taking the poison from Olenna. However Tyrion often plots and schemes silently in his POVs. In ADWD he finds out young Griff's ID silently, we have him "educating" Aegon, which we think is him being helpful, only to get a "he took the bait" thought from Tyrion after we find out Aegon has followed his advice. Then we get his escape from slavery and, although it is clear what is happening, he never once thinks about his plan or that they are trying to escape, he just does it. So there is a very slight chance that Tyrion could have poisoned Joff.
One more count against Tyrion is that he and LF are the only two characters to have actually "confessed" to killing Joffery in the books.
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Twyin's "Have her [shae] brought to the Tower of the Hand", plus the look he gave, reminded me of the "Wash her and bring her to my bed" motto of Aegon IV.
I hope the show brings out Tywin's hypocrisy clearly. Among readers there are still those who say "but Tywin would never sleep with Shae, he hated whores and loved Joanna" or "I don't think Tywin ordered Elia's death out of spite because everything we know about Tywin shows us that he acts without passion" completely missing the fact that Tywin is a raging ball of anger and lust and his extreme cold, "bloodless" persona is to cover up his inner demons and protect him from being used like his father was.
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Having just watched the episode on a slightly bigger screen I'm certain that Marg puts the cup on the edge of her and Joff's table and it only looks like it is in front of Olenna because of the camera angle. If Olenna was the one to put the poison in she would of had to get up and walked over to the table. I am starting to believe, again, that we may get a second reveal about this murder on top of the LF/QOT plot.
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Arya knows what Theon has done so if he isn't on her list now I doubt she will add he. It doesn't mean she won't kill him when she sees him though. Arya's list tends to be people who she personally witnesses being bad rather than people who are bad to her or her family.Was doing a reread of the Theon chapters in ACOK and noticed that Mercy pops up a couple of times in his thoughts. Could this mean that we will see an Arya-Theon meeting sometime during the next two books? Might be interesting since he is currently not in Arya's prayers but would definitely make the list when she finds out what he has done to her family.
I do think Theon and Arya will meet up. She may even be sent to assassinate him if Euron finds out he it's alive and hires another faceless man. With Arya's association with water I think she may end up sorting out the Iron Islands, maybe helping Asha take on Euron or instating Theon as a puppet king/lord.
[Book Spoilers] EP508 Discussion
in E08: Hardhome
Posted
In an attempt to lighten things up.
The secret on set is that Mance was meant to be revealed as the Lord of Bones but when filming started the Tormund actor forgot his lines and decided to improvise. Har!
What they won't tell you on the making of videos is that much of the battle scene in Hardhome was lifted straight from the rough cut of Pompeii and altered with CGI.