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St Daga

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  1. St Daga

    Heresy 210 and the Babes in the Wood

    Thanks! My mind is honestly a bit of an OCD/ADHD mess! Those things popped out to me when I first started looking over the lineage charts in the World Book. It seems too specific to not be a hint to us. That Brandon/Wylla/Lonnel connection is one of the reasons I think Brandon is the best possible father for Jon via Lyanna. Of course, that is based on the premise that Wylla is indeed Lyanna, which comes a lot from my speculation that Lyanna is Jon's mother, but Ned awkwardly naming Wylla as Jon's mother to Robert. It was Ned's way of both not lying but still evading the hard truth. My gut tells me it's Ned who is Jon's father, but I see all three Stark brothers as possibilities, just depending on the time line. Well, I am unsure about how the baby might have got north, or if Bael wasn't a grown man by the time he joined the wildlings, much like we see with Mance. The World Book tells us that Gael was seduced by a singer, became pregnant and then drowned herself in the Blackwater Rush. It doesn't tell us if she bore that child or not. If she did have the child before her death, then perhaps it was sent north of the wall to hide or protect it, or at least was raised in safety. Of course, I am drawn to Baelon as being important for two reasons, his nickname the Spring Prince and his name starting with Bael-. It's also possible that Gael did not die, but the drowning was a ruse used to get her and her child out of Kings Landing. However, it is possible that the singer that seduced her could have been a wildling, who might have taken the child north. That is something I had not considered. But the Bael name, as you had pointed out, sounds very Targaryen-like and that is hard to ignore. I had also seen the thought a couple months back on this board that Gael was the bastard daughter of Alysanne and a Stark, hence her nickname being the Winter Child. It's a good thought too, but and could work depending on the time that Alysanne and Jaehaerys were in the north. That idea is based on the two reported separations between J&A during their marriage. Something stands out about the idea of Spring and Winter having a child, and it rather mimic's the idea of fire and ice, or even what might have happened at Harrenhal that upset the season and caused winter to return for a couple months. If Bael had Targaryen blood, it might be a way that a skinchanger type of gene could have been passed back into the Stark line. The Stark's wanted a marriage with the Targaryen's for a reason, and it seemed like they wanted a princess for their own house, and not to send a Stark female to the Targaryen's. It's one of the reasons that RLJ just doesn't fit for me, because of the gender difference. Of course, this depends on if skinchanging is passed via male/female genetics. Still, I think there was a marriage earlier than this between the Stark's and Targaryens, but I don't have much more than speculation, but I do think the Stark's carry some Targaryen blood. This is a possibility, although a strong part of me thinks that Arthur did die. I do speculate that if Arthur did survive the toj showdown, that he was sent to the wall, and assumed the identity of Qhorin Halfhand. I think Arthur's sword hand was wounded when battling Ned, and that is what ties him back to Qhorin. Mostly speculation but I do have a pile of notes that are trying to become a firm theory. If Arthur did live, it would be a reason to think that Dawn has not been given to a new Dayne to wield, because it's master still lives. I am also not certain how "good" of a guy Arthur is, but I do see him as a possible baby daddy for Jon. Arthur's smile is sad in Ned's dreams for some reason. I do think it's possible that Arthur could actually be Lem Lemoncloak, as was presented up thread. Much of the Dorne imagery I see around Lem that makes me think he is Lewyn Martell, could very well indicate he is Arthur Dayne.
  2. St Daga

    Lyanna Stark: A Gift from Old Gods

    When is Lyanna described as "slim of frame"? Besides seeing a slim girl assumed by Theon to be Lyanna in a dream, in which we should take with a grain of salt, after all, Ned is missing a head, but apparently still identifiable. Theon's dreams can't be taken any more literally than the Neddard's fever dream. Even if Lyanna was slim, what does that really mean? Theon also thinks of Jeyne Poole (fake Arya) as slim, but tall, so slim doesn't necessarily mean petite. Many slim women can deliver babies just fine without the need for an operative delivery. I'm curious to hear about this! I have come to wonder if the blue flower isn't a hint at House Florent, and not a Stark winter rose at all.
  3. St Daga

    Heresy 210 and the Babes in the Wood

    Do you mean that Wylla is a real person in relation to Edric Dayne's story of his wet nurse? I am not entirely trusting of Edric's story. Not that I think he is lying, but he could be mislead, just as I am unsure about believing his story about Ned and Ashara being in love. It's possible that there is more than one person that the name could apply to. As mentioned, there is a Wylla connected to House Manderly in the north, but also a Wylla connected to House Wyl in the past, a warrior woman, and there is also a Wylla Fenn, who was the woman who bore a Brandon Stark a bastard in the past named Lonnel Snow. I think all of those are meant to combine to us as hints. We see Sansa take on the identity of Alayne Stone, and Arya takes on multiple names and identities while she is on the run. The same could be possible for Lyanna during the time that she was missing, and Wylla could be one of those false identities. Why would it defeat Sam's storyline or character to be from a special bloodline? If his story is true, then is mother is a Florent, and that is a special bloodline in itself. While I agree that it would seem odd for Sam to have silver hair and no one commenting on it, that doesn't mean it's not possible. Or for Sam to have the dark hair of the Martell's. And I do think that GRRM has said he feels that Samwise Gamgee is the true hero of LOTR, that doesn't mean Samwell Tarly can't be both from a special blood line and the hero of the story. I think GRRM characters are too complex to just think of him writing himself as Samwell Tarly or Tyrion Lannister, whom GRRM seems to love. Sam's storyline connects him to Jon, but also very importantly to Aemon Targaryen. Sam has much more to do with Targaryen's in this story that Jon has so far. Certainly, the many oddities that make me connect Sam to the Targaryen's might turn out to be nothing, but for now it's hard for me not to wonder about it. While Lyanna was described as having a touch of "wold blood", she is never described as having more of the north in her than Ned. Brandon had the "wolf blood" and Lyanna had a "touch" of it. That doesn't necessarily translate to North, although it could. Ned seems to understand that Rickard Stark translated "wolf blood" to wildness. It all comes down to personal interpretation, I suppose. Ned never claims to have any "wolf blood" either, but he reacts at times with fury and rage and anger. I don't think Eddard Stark is immune from the "wolf blood" at all, and it lead him to an early grave at age 35. Pure speculation on my part, but I think Baelon Targaryen might be the father of Bael the Bard. Baelon Targaryen is one of the two children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne that are described with nicknames. Baelon is the Spring Prince and Gael Targaryen is known as the Winter Child. I think those nicknames are meant to draw our attention. Bael would be a fitting name for a child of Baelon and Gael. Gael Targaryen was reported to have been seduced and became pregnant, and I speculate that child could have been sired by her brother Baelon, although rumor is that she was seduced by a traveling singer. Even if Baelon was not the father, that Gael might have bore the son of a singer that she named Bael, who turned out to be a bard and a warrior is still an interesting concept. I do think your list of Bael- type names is important to the story, and I always come back to Robert comparing Ned to Baelor the Blessed. There is a clue in that. Several of those Bael names seem some how connected to the Stark's, although I haven't solved exactly how. Great questions. Arthur is presented by the little we have of him in the story as a perfect knight, which leads the skeptic in me to doubt just how perfect he might have been. That he is a great swordsman, I don't think we can dispute, but as to any other personality traits, I think we are left with little actual detail. Jaime praises him, but Jaime was looking at SAD with the eyes of a young man looking toward a great swordsman, and while Ned dreams of Arthur's sad smile, that really tells us nothing about the man. Bran says that Ned said SAD was the finest knight he ever saw which seems to speak well of SAD. However, Ned thought of Robert as a fine man and king, but Ned turns out to have been a bit blind to what Robert was actually capable of.
  4. St Daga

    Heresy 210 and the Babes in the Wood

    I would think that Jon's kingship derives from his Starkness, his northern blood. King in the North or King of Winter, that is Jon's destiny. Years ago I tied those hints to Rhaegar, and even after I dismissed that, I can see the possibilities that this is connected to Robert, who is the King at the start of our story, but I think it comes back to the north. Power of the north, magic of the north, blood of the north. I am not sure about Jon mirroring Gilly's son, but he is certainly not turned off or repulsed by the concept of children born of incest. I think that is an important clue to Jon's character, and perhaps his parentage. If this father-daughter incest were the first thing that was presented in our story, I would think Lyanna/Rickard was the greatest possibility for Starkcest, but the incest we are introduced to is sibling incest, both in Dany's thoughts and then quickly in Jaime and Cersei's activities. Sibling incest is the driving force in the first novel, and that is why it seems likely to be important to Jon's parentage. I agree whole heartedly that Wylla is a hint to us of Lyanna. Wylla and Lya have a similar vibe and cadence and if one investigates the name Lyanna, and Wylla, the letters are similar. Place the L in a different spot, flip the w could look like a double N, and it's a distorted version of each other, just as much of the story is a distorted echo of the past. So much theorizing in the story is built around Jon being the child in the tower of joy, but I am not sold on any child being in the tower of joy. If there was a child, I would be shocked if it was Jon or Dany. I am not sure Dany was born yet, and Jon being that child seems like a red herring. I think that child was Elia and Rhaegar's son Aegon, and I have come to think that baby Aegon is Samwell Tarly. Sam's story hints to me of Rhaegar more and more all the time. A boy who prefers books and songs to warfare but who can be taught to fight with the correct encouragement. Sam with his mysteriously "pale" eyes and no hair color description. Sam who was most comfortable sleeping with his sister's. Sam who shoved a burning brand into the mouth of a wighted Small Paul but never seems to be burned. Sam who bonds so much with Maester Aemon and learns so much of imporance from the Targaryen maester. Sam who is defended at Castle Black by Jon, Grenn and Pyp, who all have some parallel's to Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, and Oswell Whent. A great swordsman for Jon and Dayne, a large man hinted with a Bull for Hightower and an Aurocks for Grenn, and bat wings for Whent and large ears for Pyp. I have a hard time looking away from Sam as the same person who was protected at the toj and in AGOT-Jon IV. (This could also hint at Dayne as Jon's father). I think whatever happened to earn Ned Stark the esteem of House Dayne happened later, at Starfall. And yes, GRRM has given us many children of a similar age to confound our best attempts of solving this mystery. Ha! Jon is a starky Stark. More of the north in him than his half-brothers, seems to imply both his parents come from the north, if not both being of Stark blood. Mance is of the north, as well as the Stark's. I don't discount Roose Bolton, Roose the raper, if we could link him to having raped Lyanna. I think all three Stark brother's are legit candidates for being Lyanna's baby daddy. The timeline is the biggest question mark when it comes to Brandon, and how old Jon turns out to be will be very important. There are hints at Brandon and Benjen both. While there are many things that hint at the behavior of "wolf blooded" Stark's, Jon doesn't really show much of this wolf blood. He is thoughtful and rarely brash; Brandon might be thoughtful, but we are not presented with that, only his brash and lustful behavior. This is isn't Jon. Jon has the quiet wolf Ghost, much like Eddard is called the Quiet Wolf. Jon is so like Ned it's almost like a mirror image. And Benjen has those moments of ruffling Jon's hair and giving Jon fatherly advice. If Starkcest doesn't turn out to be the answer, I will honestly be very surprised, and think GRRM could have missed a great opportunity in story telling. Rickard I am less sold on as Jon's father, merely because we are not presented with father-daughter incest in Game. Still, Jon dreaming of his father's face melting hints at Rickard, who was burned, but also Brandon, who's statue is scorched by Maester Luwin's torch in the crypts near the end of Clash. I think this works for all of the Stark brother's at Harrenhal, although people might think Benjen to young to be the culprit. I do not. Rickard was not at Harrenhal, so I think this counts him out. Brandon seems almost to obvious to me, him and his wolf blood and maiden's blood and extreme temper and sword/cock imagery. Benjen and Ned seem like more subtle candidates for upsetting the balance of summer and winter at Harrenhal with their sister. Benjen reminds us he was Jon's age of 14 when he first was drunk on summerwine and Ned also recalls the "warm days, cool nights and sweet taste of wine" at Harrenhal. Robert tells us in Ned's first POV how summerwine can lead to women taking their cloths off and other naked lustful activities. Ned doesn't dispute this information. Everything you discuss in relation to special blood lines leading to a King of Winter seems so spot on. That is Jon! Not Bran, who has the warm Tully blood in his veins, but Jon, who has "more of the north" in him than his brothers. It makes perfect sense to me that a Stark/Stark relationship at Harrenhal actually brought back winter and delayed the spring. I think this is what GRRM has been hinting at for so very long. I think this might turn out to be spot on, and is another reason to suspect, that while Dany might be fire, her fire might not come just Targaryen blood. What if Dany actually resulted from two parents of Dayne blood? Or the Dayne/Targ combination that many have suspected for years. I have wondered if the key part of the Bael Tale that we are missing is that the Stark maid might have had a missing bastard brother in the mix. This could be Bael himself, or it could be some other Stark sperm donor. Otherwise, I agree completely that we will find that the father of the Stark maids child was her own father. In Clash and Storm the father/daughter incest element is strong, but no in Game, In Game, it's sibling incest, and GRRM has said (I think, anyway) that we can figure out Jon's parentage from clues in the first novel. That is is why I lean toward incest of a sibling variety and not parental. I do like your work with the inversions, but I am not sure how specific they go. I think the inversions in the story are more loose than specific and down to multiple details. Time will tell, of course... and I think if Lem turns out to be a former kingsguard, he is Lewyn Martell. Lem and Lew, flip than M and you have a W. LeM and LM (Lewyn Martell), Lem talks of wanting his wife and daughter back and Lewyn was reported to have a paramour (I think there could have been a child too, but its only speculation). Lemon's are associated with Lem's yellow cloak and lemons are strongly associated with Dorne. Lem's cloak is considered piss yellow or lemon yellow, and we do have Tansy hinting to us that Lem's cloak was once white. I think that Lewyn probably washed down the Trident and washed up at the Quiet Isle, and later tried to reclaim his wife and child only to find them killed, perhaps in the sack of Kings Landing. Lem has no love for the Lannister's, and shows quite a bit of politeness to Arya, almost gentlemanly behavior and protectiveness, as well as wanting the member's of the brotherhood to speak gently around her. It's only after Lem has claimed the Hounds helm that was see a change for the worse in him. I swear that helm is poisoned! We don't get much of a description of Lem physically, but it's possible he could hail from Dorne. We don't know what Lewyn looked like, or even how old he might have been. Jaime does associate pissing with one hand with SAD, but there are several pissing hints in the story. Jon pisses often, so if Arthur turns out to be Jon's father, it would not really surprise me. However, I wonder if pissing doesn't have to to with kingsguard in general, or night's watch brothers. Lot's of talk of pissing with the white and black cloaked brothers of the story. Something to do with pissing on vows... House Gardner has strong ties to Garth Greenhand, as they are said to descend from Garth the Gardner, Garth Greenhands eldest son, and Garth Greenhand is probably who House Stark descents from, as well, from Brandon of the Bloody Blade. I do wonder if we might still have a person with some House Gardner blood in our story, and I speculate it could be Marwyn the Mage. Garth Greenhand and Garth the Gardner have much green man imagery about them, and in pagan religion, the green man is often described or pictured with the image of a man's face peering out of dense foliage and some may have leaves for hair, perhaps with a leafy beard and often leaves or leafy shoots are shown growing from his open mouth and sometimes even from the nose and eyes as well. Marwyn is described as having white hair coming out of his nose and ears. It's not much but I think it's a subtle nod to green man imagery that calls to the Garth's of the reach and ties to Marwyn. I agree that House Stark has some connection to coming from Asshai. The Stark's have that round tower with gargoyles, which hints to me of them having a dragon past, and dragon's are associated with Asshai. In Game, Dany also describes people from Asshai as being dark and solemn. Solemn is almost a key description for several of the Stark's in our story, and while Dany's "dark" is vague, it could be dark hair, which is a Stark trait that Ned, Jon and Arya share, and Jon is described as being dark to Robb's fair. This "dark"hint is also pretty vague, but I do think it hints of Asshai and the Stark's. I have some speculation that we are missing a Stark/Targaryen marriage in the past. My guess is that it was Aerea Targaryen, daughter of Rhaena and Aegon. It would fit the time frame that is missing from the Stark lineage in the world book and Aerea is just a different way to spell Arya, and perhaps Arya Flint was named in honor of Aerea. Again, speculation and no proof, but this is one of the only reasons I am looking forward to Fire and Blood this fall. Ned/Ashara does seem a bit too straight forward, that is why if we have Stark/Dayne combo for Jon, it would be more subtle if it was Arthur and Lyanna. And tie Jon to "his father's sword", which could then nicely apply to Dawn instead of Ice. This idea always makes me feel warm and fuzzy, and I can't explain the odd reaction but I would not mind this outcome at all. I normally only look at these Heresy threads after they have been closed, but this time around, I decided to jump right in and post a bit. Sorry my post was so long, but I find these idea's to be very stimulating.
  5. St Daga

    Incest Deficiencies, or lack thereof

    Well that is true to some extent, but I am genetically more related to my siblings than I am to my 3rd or 4th cousins. Or so Ancestry com tells me!
  6. St Daga

    Incest Deficiencies, or lack thereof

    Yes, there were changes made in the leadership of the Faith of the Seven. We are shown how important the High Septon is to the policies and actions of those below him. Just like the pope. Politic's and power play together. I suppose it's possible that giving Rhaella to the faith would have been some kind of concession that Maegor made to get the Faith's support. It ended up being difficult for Maegor to have her killed, although we are told that is related to Lord Hightower. Perhaps it would have been just as difficult for him to bring her back to Kings Landing. I just question the information we are given on Rhaella. Perhaps F&B will clarify this a bit, or perhaps it will not. In a way, it seems like Maegor should have stashed those girls to possibly marry himself when they reached child-bearing age, or saved them to be wed to the son's he hoped to produce from his many wives. He doesn't seem stupid, although he does seem rash and temperamental. Maybe he wasn't thinking that far in the future, or he figured one of the twins, Aerea, could fulfill that position eventually. I guess all of that would depend on whether Maegor produced a viable son ever. I think those gaps in the lineage are purposefully hiding information from us. As to the Lannister's, if Tywin knew he carried some dragon blood, it might make him feel it was his duty or right to control the Iron Throne, and he seems most definitely drawn to the Iron Throne. I suspect this would have happened some time in the reign of Jaehaerys I, if it happened at all. One thing that detracts from that is the idea of Tyrion and his dragon dreams that he tells Jon about. If there was a known Targaryen/Lannister connection in the past, then that would explain Tyrion's fascination, and I would expect him to vocalize that. But perhaps not. If the Stark's also had this same connection in the past, then perhaps Tyrion was testing Jon to see if he had similar experiences, or knew of family that did. Perhaps the Westeros needed dragonblood, in however diluted a form in came to them, and after 300 years of Targaryen rule, there has to be more houses than we know of that share of drop of dragon blood. Perhaps that was the purpose of Daenys's dreams and Aegon's conquest? I admit that I allow speculation to run wild in my mind. As to the Targaryen's sharing blood with the Lannister's or the Stark's, I used to think that the connections happened in the previous generation, but now I am not so sure. I think this mixing of blood (the first mixing, anyway) happened approximately 200+ years ago. I know we have the planned Stark/Targaryen matches that have not come to fruition, such as The Pact of Ice and Fire, but I don't think those were the only attempts. I speculate (yes, I do that a lot) that part of Aegon and Torrhen's agreement on the Trident had to do with a marriage between the two families. I wonder if this also happened when Jaehaerys I ruled. He ruled for a long time, and I think he could have married one of his twin nieces, or his sister Rhaena, to a Stark. There is a lot we are missed in the Jaehaerys and Alysanne story, but I wonder about the dragon's they took north, and I wonder what kind of concession they gave to the Stark's for the Stark's to agree to ending the First Night tradition, as well as giving a huge swath of land to the Night's Watch. Perhaps it was a Targaryen princess? Just because we haven't been told it didn't happen, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Before Dance came out, no one would have suspected that Ned traveled from the Vale by ship to White Harbor via the Bite and Sisterton with a mystery woman until we get that information in a few lines in Davos chapters. There are things yet to be revealed, why not a Targaryen/Stark marriage in the past? I just don't think it could be discounted completely, and I do think GRRM still wants to surprise his readers. Well, marriage to your sister is just one step away from marriage to two of your sisters. I don't see polygamy as one step to far from the Faith's perspective, while incest is okay suddenly. But you do make a point about perhaps wanting to separate themselves from the idea of Maegor and his marriages. We don't see polygamy again for the Targaryen's, correct? Perhaps this was a deal that Jaehaerys struck with the faith, sibling marriage but only monogamous marriages from now on. But a male can pass the carrier gene to his daughter. She would not express the haemophilia but she can carry and pass it on to her offspring. She might not be symptomatic, but she still has the gene (just like blue eyes or red hair). If her partner also has the haemophilia gene that is passed on, then the child would inherit the disease, 50% chance of being a carrier if female or 50% chance of being expressed if a boy. And while the mother passes the gene, it is the father (who also carries the gene) who determines the sex of the child, so, if the child is born a male, this child would have the gene as well as risk expressing it with a physical disease.
  7. St Daga

    Incest Deficiencies, or lack thereof

    @norwaywolf123 Sorry I missed commenting on your post. I didn't look over the thread very well, I guess. I am not sure how that would work for them after Craster's death, but it might not matter. I speculate that the Other's have been building to something over many years, for a generation at least, but perhaps more, so the son's of Craster, if they do have some special genetic component, are headed for some kind of climax. And we don't know what they actually do with his son's, so perhaps there would be one to remain to start the process over again. Another option would be for a new man to take over Craster's position, which is actually what Chett thought about doing. If Chett, or some random man started having children with Craster's daughter/wives, the women would pass their genetic gift on to these children. They have the same thing the Other's are looking for, so it's possible that the "sacrifices" could be sustained in that way. I have seen speculation that question that Craster got his special genes from his Mother and it's passed down in the female line, so that would make the women important, not Craster. Yes, this is true. But most of these families are first men families, and they marry children back to the Stark's as well, so that might keep a special gene pool less shallow than we might expect. Honestly, in many regions, the families of the lords have spent a lot of time marrying into a certain number of houses, which indicates a little bit of localized in breeding. Not unlike many aristocracies in the world. It is possible that before the Targeryen's conquered Westeros, most houses breed with other houses in their same region. Perhaps not exclusively, of course, but for the majority of the time. One example of a marriage outside a region was when Argilac Durrandon offered his daughter Argella to Aegon to be his third bride, but politics were at play with this, because Argilac was looking for a buffer (of dragons) between his lands and that of the Hoare's of Harrenhal. However, I speculate that I skin changer gene is very similar to a dragon bonding gene, perhaps even the same thing, and that might be incentive for the Stark's to want to put some dragon blood in their line. Of course, there is no proof of that, just speculation, but hopefully someday we will get a few more answers about this. To some extent, I would say that is a fair argument, although I know people who would disagree. My understanding of Sickle Cell Disease and the Malaria connection isn't great, but that SCD could be protective in some ways against the malaria infection taking hold. And this does make sense, even if SCD is a genetic mutation, some mutations do cause protections or help with humans development. In the course of evolution, I would guess that genetic mutations (such as being able to tolerate the lactose of other species, such as some humans have developed) has allowed humans to thrive or flourish in a way they previously could not. So, SCD could help protect a person from a Malarial infection. However, SCD on it's own is quite unpleasant and comes with anemia, episodes of terrible pain, damage to organs and muscles, issues with edema and increased risk of secondary infection. Much like cancer and chemotherapy, sometimes the cure is worse than the disease of you want to acquire SCD to protect your from Malaria. The protective vs disease process is affected by how many allele's a person carries for SCD. If a person carries one recessive allele, you would be a carrier from SCD but not affected, and would be protected from Malarial inheritance, but you would risk passing SCD to offspring if your partner also carries the allele. If you carried two allele's for SCD, then you would be affected with SCD and all of it's related health problems. It makes sense that in climates/regions that malaria thrives in, that the human body would develop an answer to help protect people, even if by accidental genetic mutation. Again, I am no geneticist, so perhaps I have not described how this works in the best possible way.
  8. St Daga

    Incest Deficiencies, or lack thereof

    I misspoke, or mistyped, about incest being the trigger with haemophilia. It is said that Victoria's haemophilia was a spontaneous genetic mutation, but who can prove that? There is speculation about her parentage, or at least the identity of her biological father. For whatever reason, she was a carrier and she passed it on to several of her offspring, and they in turn passed it on to their children. But haemophilia is recessive, and inbreeding could increase any recessive trait's chance of being expressed. Just as with any recessive trait. However, a person can pass on recessive traits to their offspring without inbreeding or incest being a factor. All you need is two recessive carriers, who can be completely unrelated, which is often the case with many autosomal recessive disease processes like Tay Sachs disease, Sickle Cell Anemia or Cystic Fibrosis. Incest doesn't have to be involved, of course, but it could increase the chance of the genes being expressed in offspring. Thank you for helping me clarify my previous statement. As to Craster, we have no confirmation of why he was doing what he was doing, or why the Other's are interested in his offspring. I do respect your opinion but right now, that is just as speculative as my own ideas. But I am open to all sorts of speculation, and think that almost anything is possible in this story. Time will tell, hopefully, and until then, all theories are valid.
  9. St Daga

    Incest Deficiencies, or lack thereof

    Geez! It's been longer than I thought since my previous post here. A belief doesn't necessarily means it's confirmed, or correct. However, if there is a gene for dragon bonding/riding, then it makes sense to keep this gene be produced. By selective breeding, inbreeding, what ever you want to call it. I just don't see skinchanging as much different as far as genetic gifts go. Certainly, I could be wrong about that. Do we know this for certain? That dragon's don't carry some of their riders's in them forever. If a dragon egg can absorb someones soul, then why can't a dragon? Certainly, we see some difference in what we think of skinchangers and dragonbinders, but that distinction could be said of wargs and skinchangers. Very similar but perhaps not exactly the same. Varamyr is both a warg and a skinchanger, and perhaps if he ever say a dragon, he could have bonded that animal, too. I think they are very alike and you don't see it that way. Which is fine. If we all agreed, this would get very boring. Well, they certainly knew who to give him to for training. Although Varamyr thinks that his siblings did not have the gift, it is possible he is wrong. He wasn't trained at that time, so he didn't know much. I would guess that Lump had a different father than Bump and his sister. Things happen in life. The mother knew, and eventually the man who he knew has his father realized it. And then they gave the boy to Haggon. As to his siblings not having the gift, Little Bump, who became dog meat, and the older sister Meha, (who I think is probably Harma Dogshead), probably only shared a mother with Varamyr, not a father, and perhaps did not have the gift for that reason. Harma hates dog's perhaps because dog's killed her baby brother. I am not afraid of the tinfoil, but I don't expect anyone else to admire how shiny it is. Also, I am not sure that Haggon was a stranger to Varamyr's parents, only he was a stranger to Lump. Wargs are a type of skinchagner, and I think this goes for dragonriders, as well. Certainly, some might have a talent for a different animal to bond with, only one animal, or many types of animals. Varamyr talks about different types of skinchangers, and he put's wargs in a slightly different category, but not a different class. But he sets himself apart because of the amount and type of animals that he control's. Bran and Arya, at least, show this ability to bond with more than just wolves, and Bran can even wear the skin of Hodor. I see it kind of like a taxonomy pyramid. Or that it's not! Bran's gift could be why his siblings are seeing things around the heart tree. That is one possibility. Well, it could be possible that it was Ned and Cat's blood that needed to be combined, and therefore Brandon had to die, leaving Ned and Cat to marry and mate and produce special offspring. And they are special, those Stark kids. I think there is a lot of manipulation that could have been caused by Bloodraven in people's dreams. Because Ned struggled to interpret his dreams, doesn't mean someone wasn't trying to tell him something. Perhaps Ned is a bit dense. He does tell us that he questions the gods; "If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?" Perhaps the God's (Bloodraven) sent Ned, or Robert, or Rhaegar certain "lusts" to help promote a certain bloodline? I think that is a pretty good definition of a companion novel. "A bonus book that gives reader's answers to questions they had about the book. Or gives reader's more information on interesting things from the book". Anything is optional, it just depends on how deep you want to look at things. But you are correct about information on Bloodraven, as he get's very little explanation or time in the main novels, but his backstory is hashed out in other writings. Just last week I decided to read Sons of the Dragon. I have all of the books on my shelf, just never bothered to read them. It was quick reading, and pretty interesting. It helps my tinfoil, bit I still don't know if it is "necessary" reading. I would think you are correct about Fire and Blood shedding some important information on Rhaena and her twins, which is one of the reasons I am looking a bit forward to that. Mostly, I am just irritated that it is not Winds of Winter. As to not establishing a Targ/Stark bloodline previously, I do think it's hinted at with Robert and Ned's discussion on who should have been king. Robert says it should have been Jon or Ned, but Ned says Robert had the better claim. Not the only claim, just the better one. And Robert's claim is through his Targaryen blood through his grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen. Oh, and conquest, which Jon and Ned had a huge part of. The Arryn's have some dragonblood and I think the Stark's do too. Time will tell, of course, and I understand that is not a popular idea with many readers. That would lesson the idea and importance of Jon being the Ice and Fire combo baby. We are told that The Pact of Ice and Fire was never fulfilled, but that only apply's to what came after that pact. I think the Stark/Targrayen match came before, and Cregan Stark might have made that pact with Jacaerys Valeryon hoping to duplicate something from the past. And I have no proof of this, I understand. But there is a suspicious amount of time missing from the Stark lineage, and I think that is hiding something important. I also understand that I have only speculation and I don't blame people for not seeing it the way I do. One of the reasons I finally decided to read Sons of the Dragon was to see how to respond to this comment. That book does report that Rhaella was sent for training to be a septa, not that she ever became one. She was probably 2 years old or less at that time. I was mistaken about her being housed with House Hightower, but they are given credit for keeping her alive. We don't know where she was when Maegor called for her death, only that Lord Hightower imprisoned the rider. And that he was ordered to take her head, which rather mirror's Jon Arryn being commanded by Aerys to take Ned and Robert's heads. Wards of his, or former wards, which hints to me that Rhaella was actually a ward of House Hightower. Actually, the whole idea that Maegor would give this Targaryen princess to the Faith is odd as hell. After all, the Faith caused huge problems for Aenys, and then Maegor. A huge bloody conflict followed. Why would Maegor ever give such a boon to the Faith? It really doesn't seem applicable to Maegor's attitude toward the Faith at all. Perhaps this information should be doubted or questioned, as we know that these writings from the Maester's could have some bias. I would think that Rhaelle and Aerea are great candidates to be married into the Stark or Lannister or Hightower lines, or even Rhaena, who had proven her fertility and was still young. I actually find it odd that Rhaena wasn't married to Jaecaerys. If you are going to have a sibling marriage, you might as well make it polygamous, as well. Who cares what the Faith thinks when you have dragons? I could very well be incorrect with my line of speculation, but I guess time will tell, like with most of the answers we are seeking from this story. Sorry about the delay in posting @Lord Varys. Work, life and some reading got in the way of a good discussion.
  10. St Daga

    Incest Deficiencies, or lack thereof

    Look @sigella, I have better things to do that argue with you and I am certain you have better things to do that argue with me. I never called you a nazi, and I have pointed this out several times in the thread. I did say that your idea's about parents not breeding children if there is a chance at a genetic disease process that can be passed on border's on eugenic's, which is something that was part of nazi propaganda. If you interpreted me to have called you a nazi, I protest that, but will apologize for the misunderstanding. That was never my intent. As to the rest ... I gave you a definition of eugenic's, which you chose not to respond to, but did have time to call me a dim wit. You also said that eugenic's was inbreeding, which it is not, and I gave information on how inbreeding was never a part of eugenics. I pointed this out and you did not respond to that either. I have no problem with people choosing to take a risk and have children, even knowing there is a chance that a child might not be perfect. No child is perfect. And honestly, all pregnancy carries risk, in utero development and in labor and birth injury, whether you have a possible genetic disease or not. And the majority of those risks have nothing to do with inbreeding or incest, which is what the OP is about. I have a personal perspective that differs from yours which I did try to explain. I appreciate that you had kind words about my brother, but you seem to think that people like him are better off not being born or to have a chance at life. I disagree, whether parents know the risks or not. It's obvious we disagree on several matters, and that is fine. Let's just be done with this. I am done with this.
  11. St Daga

    Incest Deficiencies, or lack thereof

    The evidence for this being that the Targaryen's claim that it is so? I am not trying to dispute there must be some type of magic involved in bonding or riding with a dragon, but I am not sure that it is much different that bonding with a direwolf or an eagle or a snow bear. It just stands to reason to me, if these are similar types of gene magic, then if the Targaryen's inbreed to keep the "blood of the dragon" strong, which might just be another way of saying "hey, we can bond with and control dragon's", then it might be possible that the same can go for skinchangers or wargs that we have seen in the story. I do think the mother is important, as we are told that Varamyr never managed to father a child with his gift. I think this gift needs to come from both sides of the union, and Varamyr never mated with the right woman. Perhaps there is a huge difference between dragon bonding and warging, but to me it seems like the major difference is the type of beast involved. I can't speak for those people and their claims, but I would imagine that all bloodlines, be they First Men, Valyrian, or even Andal or Rhoynish as well as CotF and giants have some type of magic in their bloodlines. And much of that is speculation, I suppose. Evidence is a tricky thing in this story, with a whole host of unreliable narrator's and what I would guess is purposeful misleading of the reader by the author as well as large amounts of incomplete information. The whole story is tricky. It might not be an inherited trait, but for now, I personally have no reason to doubt that it is inherited. Time and more books could very well prove me wrong. As to the odds, I know at present we are given the impression of only Bran being a greenseer, but I think there are clues that Jon and Rickon are as well. We are told that about the red and green eyes of the CotF. The direwolves are important to the Stark's, and we are possibly given clues about the Stark children through their direwolves. It is Jon who has a red eyed direwolf and Rickon who has a green eyed direwolf. Is this some type of misdirection that we are not supposed to pay attention to, or are we to see that possible Jon and Rickon are greenseer's, too? I actually speculate they all have this ability, but there is little proof. Rickon and Robb are difficult as we don't spend as much time with them or see through their own POV, but Sansa and Arya possibly give us clues. Sansa has a dream in the godswood of the Red Keep where she see's Bran smiling, and I don't think it is a coincidence that happened under the heart tree, a great oak. Arya seems to have some type of communication with Ned at the heart tree at Harrenhal. I think these could be examples of greensight in both Arya and Sansa. Anyway, I am notorious for derailing threads, and I am going to try not to do that here, but I will say, what happens to those odd's if six of the Stark children have the green sight ability? Perhaps it is all a give from Bloodraven but I still feel like there has to be some genetic component involved. Like Bloodraven had to steer the parent's together to get the right genetic code to create these children. I think there are things he wants to leave for later reveals. But I think Lysa hears voices and uses singers and sweetsleep to drown them out, and I think that Sweetrobin has inherited this as well with hearing voices and use (not his choice but still use) of sweetsleep. Time will tell. For now it's speculation and I very well could end up mistaken about it all. This is certainly possible. I always say that almost anything is possible in this story, so this too is possible. It's an interesting connection and one that I was unaware of. I am not much aware of Baelor Breakspear or his story, so I don't have much to contribute. I have not read any of the companion novellas (although I suppose I will some day). I stubbornly feel the puzzle can be solved by reading the main novels. I will admit that I have looked into the world book but still feel like the great puzzle is solvable within the ASOIAF main novels. Good theory on Dondarrion blood, for certain! I still think there is something to the phrase "kissed by fire" that might relate back to red heads. Time will tell, I hope! Well yes, but I am thinking before Cat and Ned's marriage. After just talking about how I try not to use the world book to solve this puzzle, I am going to go straight to the world book Stark lineage. We are given some of the Stark marriages and children since the conquest, but not all of them. By my estimation, we are missing 75-100 ish years of lineage. I think sometime after the conquest, but before the Dance of the Dragon's, there was a Stark/Targaryen marriage. I know many people will not support this idea, but I think it happened. We don't know what Aegon and Torrhen agreed to on the Trident that day but I feel it has to be more than "bow to me and I won't murder you all". There has to be some benefit to not fighting besides just living and being conquered. The vale and the north bent the knee and did not war, and I think that earned them a marriage to a Targaryen, probably a female. We know it eventually happened with House Arryn, but we have not been given this information for House Stark. Of course Aegon I had no daughters, and it's debatable if he even had any sons by his own seed. But both Rhaenys and Visenya shared Aegon's blood so I don't know that it matters much. Aenys I had a daughter Rhaena who married his son Aegon, another sibling incest marriage for the Targaryen's. She bore him twin daughters before his death and her forced marriage to Maegor. These twins are where my Stark speculation lies. We don't know much about them, except that Rhaella was a ward of House Hightower during this, and I think House Hightower would have been stupid to give her up, so I think she remained with House Hightower after Maegor's death (and it might be the reason that Lynesse looks like Daenerys), but Aerea, who had escaped the Red Keep on dragonback with her mother has no more mentions. So far... Aerea Targaryen. Aerea is an interesting sounding name, and my guess is it doesn't sound much different than Arya. I think that Aerea was given to a son of House Stark and her genes remain a part of the Stark's that we currently see in our story. I know that the name Arya seems to come from Arya Flint, but perhaps that Arya was named after an Aerea? Again, I am not trying to derail this thread but that is where I speculate that Targaryen blood became part of House Stark. The World Book also gives us an abbreviated House Lannister lineage, and I find that very suspicious, too! *I mentioned I haven't posted over here in a long while but I see this place has really upped the emoji game!
  12. St Daga

    Incest Deficiencies, or lack thereof

    I find your argument quite oppressive: you'd bulldoze right over peoples wants and wishes just because YOU find high down's-prevalence in society great? thoughts and ideas as if yours is the only opinion or expression that matters. You are free to have your ideas, and I am free to have mine. I find some peoples thoughts on this board interesting and thought provoking whether we agree or not, as long as the discussion is mature and polite. In case you were wondering, childish name calling is neither. Adios!
  13. St Daga

    Incest Deficiencies, or lack thereof

    Skin changing and green sight certainly seem like a type of magic to me, and if one magic (dragon binding) can be passed genetically, why should we not think that to be worth considering in another form of magic in this world? I could certainly be wrong about that, but I just like to explore the possible reasons or causes. Perhaps it has nothing to do with genetics. Perhaps the reason all six children of Winterfell are wargs has nothing to do with them and everything to do with the fact that they have direworlves. Perhaps this is the same situation with the Targaryen's? Gene's don't really matter, but having dragons or not is the deciding factor. I did come across another thoroughbred stallion by the name of Eclipse that is noted to be in the male line of 95% of modern thoroughbreds, which is a pretty stunning number. As to ancient horses, I would imagine that time would help thin out those genes, but perhaps not. Genetics are an interesting study, and talking about animals doesn't seem to get people so fired up as when talking about genetics in humans. It could be this I suppose. But that still doesn't explain all six Stark children having a warg/skinchanger ability. Even if we consider wargs and skinchanger's separate and don't count the 6/6 Stark's who are wargs, we have Bran and Arya who have shown us the ability to see through the eyes of animals that are not their direwolves, Bran with birds and Hodor, and Arya with cat's, (at least 2/6) which defies what we were told by Bloodraven "Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger", unless for these two Stark's there are two thousand others who are born without the gene, or six thousand if you consider all the Stark children skinchangers. There is something special about these children. That doesn't even take into consideration that Varamyr thinks that Jon is a very powerful skinchanger, which would give us 3/6 of the Starks. It defies the odds we are given. But what about Beric himself? We have no indication that he carries any "blood of the dragon", and he certainly was brought back by the "kiss of fire". I do think that line of speculation, with the Lothston's probably being descended from the blood line of Aegon IV, has a strong chance of being true. It gives us a connection for the Tully's via Whent via Lothston via Targayen as having special blood. But I wonder if it is something different entirely, and it has something to do with red hair, which Catelyn and Beric both share, as well as Thoros of Myr (before he went grey). We are told by Ygritte that being "kissed by fire" is lucky! Why do the wildlings feel that red hair is lucky? Perhaps because it has a link to a different kind of life or after life? Pure speculation on my part. I also speculate that the Stark's might carry some Targaryen blood, which might be why Ned and Cat's kids are special, but that is certainly a discussion for a different thread. Sorry about the delay in posting but I don't check in on this board very often, or even post here much at all any more.
  14. St Daga

    Incest Deficiencies, or lack thereof

    This was your original thought that I can across and it reads to me that you think it is cruel for a person to allow a child with the possibility of a disability to be born, and that you think less of them for not choosing to abort the fetus. I understand that your stance is from the inbreeding perspective, but not all children with disabilities are born from cases of inbreeding. And how do you know that people suffer from disabilities such as Downs Syndrome more than a person suffers from a life long history of asthma? Let's look at a disease process of asthma. Asthma has a genetic/hereditary component. If a parent has asthma, there is a chance they could pass that on to any offspring. If both parents have asthma, the chance of passing this on to offspring increases. Asthma symptoms can be treated but it cannot be cured, and some people struggle every day of their lives with asthma. I am a nurse and I have seen people come close to dying from this disease, and I know that people can die from it. I am sure that people with asthma have fears about certain activities and environments that might affect the choices they make every day, and for their whole lives. Should parents with asthma not be allowed to risk passing asthma on to their own children? You might think this is not an even comparison to Downs or Sickle Cell Disease or Cystic Fibrosis, but we walk a thin line deciding what is worth risking and what is not work risking. I agree that is an individual choice, but parents make decisions all the time that affect their children. As to drinking or smoking during pregnancy, well I would say that most things done in moderation are acceptable and things not done in moderation are not. For many, many years in this world, people drank alcohol during pregnancy, and you will find doctor's today who allow moderate amounts of alcohol during pregnancy, with children showing no ill effects from the consumption. This can be said for societies that used tobacco, although modern cigarettes have many dangerous additives that plain tobacco doesn't have. If you would like to think of a woman who drinks a beer or smokes a cigarette during pregnancy as the same as hitting yourself in the abdomen with a hammer, there is nothing I can do to change your mind. First of all, tests are offered to help possibly diagnose a chance of a genetic disorder. These tests have nothing to do with abortion, that would be a different step completely. And these tests are not 100% accurate by any means, meaning you could get an incorrect impression from said test, possibly choosing to abort a child that carried no disease process. Nope, nor do I think of pregnant crack heads as nazi's, even though they are making poor choices. However, I do compare the comments you made earlier about culling people with disabilities from being allowed a chance at life to be similar to the eugenics propaganda of the nazi party. I never called you a nazi but if you interpreted it that way, I guess that cannot be helped. I also am not sure about debating with a person who resorts to calling people names is worth my time, but would like to clarify for other people who might read these comments. Eugenic's is not inbreeding, although it could be under certain conditions, I suppose. Eugenics is defined as the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, especially by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or eencouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics). Inbreeding is defined as the mating of closely related individuals, as cousins, sire-daughter,brother-sister, or self-fertilized plants, which tends to increase the number of individuals that are homozygous for a trait and therefore increases the appearance of recessive traits. These are two different things. If you read the definition of eugenics, that sounds a lot like what you were proposing up thread. Again, I didn't call you a nazi, but I did compare eugenic's to the type of super human that the nazi party was after. While they had focus on race, this research also was based on hair and eye color, height, weight, and physical beauty, as well as health related issues. The nazi party used a term "racial hygeine" to describe their breeding plans but while looking for desired traits to pass on to offspring, they very strongly wanted to avoid inbreeding in the subjects they used. My youngest brother has Down's Syndrome, so I believe that I speak with some personal knowledge and experience, and while I don't know your background, I do think mine is important in this argument. I don't care what you think, but I will tell you my brother has been the greatest blessing to my entire family. A person with special needs, while sometimes challenging and frustrating, can make you a better person, as it teaches you patience, understanding, acceptance, and unconditional love. My parents did not know that he was going to be born with Down's, but have both plainly stated that had they known, they would have done nothing different and had him and raised him, just as they did. Some people are given this choice and make a different choice than my parents. That is fine. I don't judge that. It is not an easy path to raise a special needs child. I will state that my brother, who is 40 this year, is moderately functioning, was mainlined into school classes and graduated from high school. He now lives individually in an apartment that is supervised by a group home (and my parents) to help with finances, shopping, transportation, etc. He has a job, and while you might not be impressed by it, he is loyal to it, and goes to work every day with pride. Besides poor hearing related to smaller than average ear canals, and being shorter than average, my brother is perfectly healthy. He does not have cardiac issues or thyroid issues that can be prevalent with Down's people, nor issues with his musculoskeletal system. He does wear eye glasses but so do myself, my other brother, and both of my parents. As to the second part of your statement, yes, I do place a high value on people with Downs Syndrome, but no higher than I place on all people. Children all over the world can be abandoned to orphanages, although I am sure that children with disabilities do have a greater chance of this. My cousin adopted two girls from Russia approx 20 years ago, and while they have no genetic problems, they do have some mental scarring from life before their adoption which was a challenge to overcome at times. They were abandoned to an orphanage related to poverty and one parents death and the other being unable to support them. An orphanage was seen by the surviving parent as a better option for the sister's than being being raised in poverty. Down's is a medical condition, but any person can be abandoned at any time, and for many reasons. Another genetic disorder is albinism. Albinism is something that could show up as a possible risk for genetic testing. Albinism carries risks factors for vision problems, skin diseases and lung diseases; some people are born with these problems, some are not. Albino's in some areas of Africa are often feared, reviled and even hunted, but that does not apply to all of Africa, or other places in the world. But do the people with this genetic disorder not deserve a chance at life? Perhaps if parent had a choice, they would not have children if they knew they carried this gene code, but perhaps they still would. If a child had a choice to live or die, he might rather be born an albino than to a household of alcoholic's or addict's. I suppose each case is very individual. *see my above comments on asthma
  15. St Daga

    Incest Deficiencies, or lack thereof

    That is so frustrating when that happens. Spending time on a post that disappears is rather like a gut punch. Uugghh. I am not on this forum much anymore but whatever upgrade they did yesterday caused some problems with my profile picture. But that message you are getting is not something I have seen so far. Hope you try again if you have time. I am always interested in what you have to say, and even though we have not always agreed, I have always appreciated your opinion and the way you state it.
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