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St Daga

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  1. St Daga

    Heresy 221 and the Children of Winterfell

    I agree that no one questions that Rhaella could have bore a child that his Dany's age, so Rhaella was either known to be pregnant (though known to be pregnant and visibly pregnant are two different things) or Rhaella was pregnant so often that no one questioned that she could be pregnant again and when a child was born and people claimed in was Rhaella's, no one disputed it. However, I really doubt that Dany is the child of Aerys and Rhaella, but the text doesn't outright dispute it. This is the same rational for R+L=J, which is never outright talked about as being possible in world nor disputed. It could be or it couldn't be. Isn't Edric Dayne too young to be Aegon? When Arya meets him in Storm she thinks he is ten or twelve and he is listed as twelve in the appendix if that novel. Now, the appendix's might not be absolute truth, but shouldn't Aegon be 16-17 at this point in time, roughly a year older than Robb and Jon. Twelve and seventeen is a large age difference, one that I think is too big to be passed off as a growth restriction.
  2. St Daga

    Heresy 221 and the Children of Winterfell

    Like Jon being born with the Wildlings ? Maybe! There is the concept of Jon having "more of the north" in him than his brothers, which could be a nod to two northern parents.So certainly this could include parents from the North, but does north of the wall also count? I would think so! We have Mance as a very important character in Jon's story, and he seems to be a reminder of Bael the Bard. In theory, Bael got a baby on a Stark maiden, so perhaps Lyanna was kidnapped, only she was never taken south, she was taken north. Mance has a fascination with Winterfell and has been there multiple times. His physical description is vague, but I think he has brown eyes. Qhorin is also interesting, with his grey eyes and serious demeanor, and there would be great tragedy in Jon unknowingly killing his father. Several options would work for Jon's mother and father both to be from the kingdom of the North in Westeros, also, even if a person doesn't like the idea of Starkcest, I can't help but think of Roose the Raper and his actions with Ramsay's mother. But, would being born north of the wall, cause Jon's age to be so skewed? That I am not sure of. Sure, my baptism date is six months after my birthday, but my birthday is what counts for how old I am. Does it work the same where you are at? Age based on birthday? Or christening day? Because in Westeros, age seems derived from name day. Now, maybe we will hear that a child isn't named until it's seen likely to survive, but we have the names of several Targaryen children who were named and died after just a few days. I do wonder about the naming of children in our story. Who names them? A father? A mother? Is it a combined decision? The Stark children all have northern names, except Robb, I think. Robb is a name that comes up in the ASOIAF world as associated with the Riverlands and the Westerlands. Is Robb short for Robert, as many assume? Did Cat name him or did he not have a name until Ned met him? Again, with Tyrion Tanner, we get the information that Bronn named the child. Bronn is his acting father but is certainly not his biologic father. Does Lollys not get a choice or does she just not care about her rape child? Does a name correlate to where you might have been born? Robb was certainly born in the Riverlands while the rest of Ned and Cat's children were born in the north, perhaps hence their northern names. Or maybe it's because Ned did have some influence on the names of these children, while he wasn't around for Robb's birth. Which then does make me wonder who named Jon. I know there is the SSM that says that Ned named him, and that might be very true, but if so, is this a father's privilege to name a son? To name all his children? This also leads my mind to wonder about Theon, who is Iron Born but claims that Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf was his namesake! I have always found that interesting. And sorry, I know this is wild diversion from the nameday question!
  3. St Daga

    Heresy 221 and the Children of Winterfell

    Yes, I have wondered about this. Like is a name day different than an actual birthday? North of the wall, it seems like a child is given a name on it's second birthday, but is the day of birth always referred to as a name day, or just the actual name day. And could that mean these wildlings are actually two years older than anyone thinks? But does that translate to south of the wall? The baby that is born and named in our story that comes to mind is Lollys Stokeworth's bastard, whom Bronn names Tyrion Tanner. Why Tanner? It's not a traditional name for a bastard from Kings Landing, but I guess it's associated with the location of Lollys' rape. But more importantly, this child seems to get a name soon after birth, so this would be different from wildling tradition. But does Tyrion Tanner have a birthday AND a nameday? I don't put it past GRRM to being very tricky with the whole birthday/nameday concept, and something important might be hidden in plain site.
  4. St Daga

    Heresy 221 and the Children of Winterfell

    Oh, I'm not sure that's clear. Are you thinking Robb was born after the war ended? Because this quote leads me to think that the war was still in progress: Although, I will admit I do question Cat as a solid narrator at times... and I guess it could come down to perception of when the war ended? Did it end at the Sack? The liberation of Storm's End? After Ned did what ever he did when he went south from Kings Landing?
  5. St Daga

    Heresy 221 and the Children of Winterfell

    The military movements that make me scratch my head is the path the rebels took after the Battle of the Bells at Stoney Sept, which is southeast of Riverrun, southwest of the Gods Eye, and way south of the Ruby Ford of the Trident. Why did the rebel army retreat to the north side of the river? I think it's possible that the main rebel army was still north of the Trident at the time of Stoney Sept. It seems possible that Ned knew Robert was in trouble, so he took a smaller group of men, who pushed south to try to rescue Robert. We have information on Hoster Tully and Ned Stark and Denys Arryn being involved, but no information on Jon Arryn. I think that Jon Arryn was with the main rebel army north of the Trident and after Ned and Co rescued Robert, they moved back north to meet up with the majority of the rebel army. It seems like the loyalist army was scattered after Stoney Sept, and if the whole rebel army was there, it makes no sense to me that they didn't pursue the loyalists. Unless they didn't have the numbers of their full army to push south at this time, making it to risky. We don't even hear about Rhaegar's getting mentioned until after Stoney Sept! I don't think anyone took the threat serious until then.
  6. St Daga

    Heresy 221 and the Children of Winterfell

    Personally, I think GRRM is taunting us with vagueness for nearly the whole story. I agree that it seems too long for a child conceived at Harrenhal to be Jon, but perhaps Allyria Dayne is a possibility. I don't know if "close to a year" means shorter, as I think it could mean it was slightly longer than a year. We also have that vagueness used to describe the length of time for the Siege of Storms End, and Storms End must have been liberated not very long after the fall of Kings Landing. What is the point of the loyalists holding out in this siege long after the death of Aerys. Rhaegar was already dead, as well as a declaration of the death of Rhaegar's wife and children. I guess there was still Rhaella and Viserys to hold on for! Was there a fight at Storms End, when Ned brought his troops down? It's never been said but I have always wondered. It almost seems like there could have been much longer between Harrenhal and the start of the rebellion. I used to think it was a year, but now I am not sure it was that long, but I still lean towards a longer time period, maybe even more than a year. And I really think we are being more specific about the timeline that GRRM is. My point was that even if Ned is 35 at the start of our story, we don't know when he turned 35 in relation to the time of the year. He might have been barely 35 or almost 36. If Jon and Robb are both 14 at the time we are told Eddard is 35, it does give us easy math of 21. But life and birthdays don't always revolve around easy math. But if we throw away the idea that Harrenhal happened in the last two months of 281, and it happened earlier in the year, then perhaps Aegon was conceived at Harrenhal? He was said to be born in the first month of 282, I think, around the time that Aerys was burning wildfire to chase winter away. Perhaps it was the birth of Aegon that prompted winter to return? It would also put Aegon's conception March/April of 281, and that seems somewhat early in the year for the tourney. If we toss away the majority of the info in the world book, we know even less about these dates and I think that is what GRRM wants. He wants us confused. He doesn't want the puzzle to be easy to solve. So if the war kicked off fairly soon after Harrenhal, then clearly Ned would only be 19... or at best, only just 20, when the war ended Since we don't know when Ned's birthday was, we don't know how old he was when the war started. The only specific ages we get for Ned are 8 when he went to the Vale, 18 when he was at Harrenhal, 35 when he cuts off Gared's head. Heck, Ned could have turned 36 the very next week and we just never hear that. Although, the world book gives us that Brandon Stark and Robert Baratheon were born in 262, and Ned was born "within a year" of Brandon, which could mean within 12 calendar months, but it could also mean within the calendar year of 262, if Brandon was born early in the year. Now, if Jon Arryn died in 298, and Ned was born in 262, he was 36 when Jon Arryn died (which means Bran was wrong about Ned's age or that Ned had a birthday between Gared's execution and Jon Arryn's death but those things seems to happen at the same time) or he was still 35 and that means Ned was probably born in 263. All I am saying is GRRM gives himself wiggle-room within the vagueness. It could come down to a few months this way or that way. Also, we know that Robb was born sometime during the war, and the easy math put's Ned at being 21 years old at this time. And that might be the case. A little more complicated math might mean that Ned was 20 when Robb was born. And that might also be the case. I am not saying that the war quickly followed Harrenhal, I am just saying the information in the text leaves these options open, depending on how you want to interpret them. The more I think on it, I go back to my feelings the first time I read the story, that Harrenhal happened at least a year before the start of the war. Knowing me, I might change my mind again. I am sure we have years before another book, so I will have time to waffle about on this matter!
  7. St Daga

    Heresy 221 and the Children of Winterfell

    I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but I haven't been checking on this thread as regularly as I would like. Anyway, even if this is true of Jaime's birthday being after Harrenhal, which is probably very near the end of the year, aren't we also told that Jaime was 17 when he killed Aerys? But, if Harrenhal was in 281 and the Sack of Kings Landing was in 283, then Jaime was probably closer to 18 than to 17. So, that indicates at least 18 months would have passed, longer than the average pregnancy. Jaime and Cersei have the same birthday, so if they turned 16 at the end of 281, then they turned 18 by the end of 283. However, how long after the fall did Cersei and Robert's wedding happen, because the year given for that is 284, but even if that was early in the year, we are still looking at well over two years between Harrenhal and the events that ended the rebellion. I am guessing that the wedding happened pretty quickly after Robert took the throne, to help secure the realm. I guess we don't know for certain, though. I guess it depends on how much time passed between the Battle of the Bells and the Battle of the Trident, because it seems like the Sack of Kings Landing followed the Trident by a few weeks or up to a month. Not that long. And the Sack was said to happen in 283, but Robert and Cersei were wed in 284. This leads me to think the Sack and Trident were closer to the end of 283. I imagine that Robert and Cersei's wedding was important in tying it all together, and they would not have wasted time on that. I think in the text it states that Barristan Selmy was one of Cercei's escorts from Casterly Rock and to Kings Landing, and that he had to heal from his injuries at the Trident before he could travel. Again, this probably didn't take more that 4-6 weeks, I would think. So if the Battle of the Bells happened at the end of 282, that still puts it a full year after Harrenhal, and any child conceived then would already be born. And this also means that if the Trident happened mid to late in 283, then that is almost another year passing. All these vague "almost a year" idea's make it hard to narrow dates down, and I still think we are trying to be more specific about the timeline than GRRM is. We also have the idea that the siege of Storm's End was "nearly a year" but that could not have started until at least after the Battle of Ashford, which then lead to Robert's fleeing to Stoney Sept. How much time realistically could there be between Ashford and Stoney Sept, all of that tied to the length of the siege of Storms End. I would think the siege was lifted not to long after the fall of Kings Landing. What's the point for the loyalists to keep the siege going after the fall of the capital? I have also toyed with the idea that Jon is older than Robb, but how much older could it honestly be? Not more than a few months, I would think. Even if babies grow at different rates and sizes, they should reach developmental milestones at certain, similar intervals, and if Jon was that much older than Robb, close to a year, then it would be pretty apparent. Even if Cat didn't herself spend time with Jon, I have no doubt she was keeping tabs on him and would know about these types of things. She plainly thinks that Jon was conceived after she and Ned were married. I know she could be trying to delude herself, but I think it would be hard to ignore obvious developmental milestones. Unless Jon was just slow at meeting these, and Robb was quicker, which could mean they happened around the same times. Or they are quite close to the same age!
  8. St Daga

    Heresy 221 and the Children of Winterfell

    I haven't stopped by for a while but this last pages discussion caught my attention. It doesn't say Ned's age in the the text when Jon was born specifically, but at the start of our story, we are told by Bran that Eddard is 35 and we know that both Jon and Robb are 14. So approximately age 21 works for Ned at the birth of both of these boys, although he could have been somewhere in his 20th year as well, but closer to 21 than 20. Now, we are told that Ned was 18 at Harrenhal, but he could also be just barely 18 or a month away from turning 19, GRRM is almost taunting us with the vagueness. Doesn't the red door/brothel connection in this theory relate to the fact that doorways of brothels are lighted by a red lamp? We see red lamps or glass used often to describe a brothel. So, that could mean that Dany's door was never actually red but that is just appeared that way. This certainly seems to fit how slyly GRRM can be with his clues, and also gives us a nice backstory for why Dany's early memories don't fit what Viserys seems to remember. It isn't just the lemon tree that Dany remembers about the house with the red door but the scented oils and perfumes of her childhood. The perfumes and oils are a nice hint, and a good catch. This is from the Western Market in Vaes Dothrak. I have always wondered how far west this implies. Is it all the free cities and Westeros? It's crafty if GRRM intends us to think of Westeros, when he is only meaning some place west, but not as far west as Westeros! Ironic if Dany and Doreah are from the same place, which would be Lys, the home of pillow houses. They share a resemblance and perhaps that is for a reason, much like Myrcella has her handmaid Rosamund who looks so much like her, although so far I see so idea that Doreah ever played as a stand in for Dany.
  9. St Daga

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    I have always questioned this as well, although I do wonder how much Benjen and Ned talked before it was decided for Jon to go to the wall? I would have to say that Ned and Benjen did talk about things, and if Ned was going to believe some tinfoil, he would believe it from his brother more than Gared. AND I find it hard to believe that Benjen would not ask about Gared's execution and anything that was said. And I have come across ideas that claim Ned and Benjen were not on good terms, but Ned calls Benjen "Ben" a short, pet name, and wants him to be a part of Robert's visit to Winterfell, so I can't imagine they did not get along. Ned didn't seem to worry about any threat north of the wall besides Mance Rayder, so perhaps the Stark's do have some knowledge of Others/White Walkers/wights that we don't know about yet.
  10. St Daga

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    These are the passages that I looked at to. In the wiki page for The Battle of the Bells, on the rebel side, it doesn't list Jon Arryn as a commander, although it does list combatants to include the army of the vale. Perhaps Jon Arryn was not there but some or all of his army was? Perhaps all of the members that were included in the battle were a smaller force from each region, while the greater force never made it to Stoney Sept in time for the battle. That would make sense for why the rebel force moved north after the battle instead of pursuing the loyalist army south after they were defeated and retreated. It also lists that Robert Baratheon was a commander, but there were no combatants from the stormlands, which does make it seem like Robert really could have been alone in Stoney Sept. But ... what the hell??? Of course, I don't always trust the wiki, but so far it seems to fit the information that the text is giving us. Also the fact that Hoster Tully was badly injured might have been enough of a reason for some part of that army to take him home, back to Riverrun, and that might have included Ned, giving him an opportunity to meet and marry Catelyn. It seems Jon Arryn was at Riverrun at some point, whenever the double wedding occurred. Sorry, I am just catching up. I would agree about Jon Arryn or the bulk of his army not being at Stoney Sept, at least based on the text we have. The idea about Whitewalls is interesting, but it is on the east side of the Gods Eye, I think, Also, didn't Bloodraven say that the castle at Whitewalls would be pulled down and there would no be a trace of it left for people to pay homage to this second Blackfyre rebellion, since people still flocked to the Red Grass Field to pay homage to the spot Daemon Blackfyre died. Perhaps the reason it's not on any maps is because it was eradicated, from the land and all maps, so people would not come there as a tribute? I just reread Jaime's very similar threat to Edmure Tully in regards to Riverrun, which is a type of echo, I suppose. Well, the army of the stormlands is credited with fighting on the rebel side during the Battle of the Trident, so I don't think they were destroyed, just perhaps separated from Robert. I think Ned would risk almost anything to save Robert, because they were dear friends, more than brothers, etc. Perhaps Ned did Hoster a favor by marrying Catelyn. I still think it's possible that Brandon might have been her lover first, leaving her just as much soiled goods as Lysa was. I argue that maidenhood and maidenhead are two entirely different things. As to claims, Ned says that Robert had the better claim. Of course, over the years, I have tried to drum up tinfoil in regards to the Stark's having some Targaryen blood and therefore a claim to the throne. I even had a nice theory about Aerea Targaryen, that wild little minx, but F&B took some wind out of those sails, although,,, the real Aerea was still in Oldtown at the end of that story. And Aerea sounds just like Arya! Anyway, back to Ned's claim... a good claim, but Robert's claim was better. I think there is plenty yet to be revealed about the rebellion, both activity and politics, and how it all played out.
  11. St Daga

    Wow, I never noticed that v.17

    Interesting thought on the harpy's fingers. But, I can't imagine there is only one such whip. I bet one goes to people when they buy a certain amount of slaves. Interestingly, harpy's fingers is not a proper name, since it is not capitalized in the text. Like tower of joy, it is perhaps a nickname. Something hidden behind something else. In what way does Kraznys no Nakloz remind you of Aerys? .It was actually Dany giving a dragon to him that made him a dragon maester, if even if only for a few seconds, although he did give her the power of an army with her deceitful trick! Before this he was merely a slave master, although a very powerful one. And he is an asshat and I feel so sympathy for him, but this is a good example of how deceptive Dany will be in her march to power. Also, doesn't Dany throw the whip away from her, as if refusing it, but only after she has slyly already used it's power. Although, in this moment of her relishing the ruin that dragon fire makes of Kraznys mo Nakloz, she does seem very much like Mad King Aerys! I am interested in your thoughts on griffins!
  12. St Daga

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    I like this typo as a word to describe all of Heresy (219 editions so far and counting). Bahaha! Sometimes genius happens by pure accident! My fingers are often at war with my brain! Good point! And perhaps there is even more of reason that Coldhands can't pass the wall that hasn't been revealed yet. Well, Catelyn tells us that Ned doesn't put any faith in signs (and she could darn well be wrong), but that doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't believe in magic, or might have understood the warg bond his children have with their direwolves. We really have no idea what Gared said to Ned, so we can't know if it was about the Other's or not. I also guess it might depend on how we define magic. Each character might define it a bit differently, just as we all seem too. As I said, I think it's possible, and at least worth discussing. Currently, based on the color of the glass in the glass gardens, I think that comment was talking about the rose petals, but I could veer back the other way, too! And the blue eyes of death in Ned's dream could be about a blue eyed Lyanna! Icy, death blue eyes that hint at the Other's or wights...
  13. St Daga

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    I think it has been looked into. If not here, I know we have discussed it at LH. In one quote Catelyn almost makes it sound like she get's married on a preplanned day, but with a different groom. "But when the day came" she thinks, which sounds like a specific day, "the day". But... how can this be, since when Brandon rode off to KL, he promised to be back in a few weeks ("not be long" to marry her, but he ends up captured, Rickard needs to travel from somewhere to face Aerys in Kings Landing, then they both die, Aerys demands Ned's head, Jon Arryn sends back defiance (I love that line BTW), Ned needs to travel to the north, raise his banners, march an army south, and then marry Catelyn. That had to take longer that a couple weeks. So what is going on here? One person theorized that perhaps Catelyn got married on the same date as preplanned but a whole year later, but that seems like too much time. I really don't have a good answer for this. I sometimes wonder if GRRM does either?
  14. St Daga

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    Honestly, I don't know. Catelyn says some odd things. Yes, she claims that she seen Ned for the first time on their wedding day. She also says they spent a fortnight together before he made her promises (interesting choice of words) and went off to war. She also thinks of how "they made Robb that night". So, she thinks they conceived Robb on their wedding night, but she claims that Ned and she spent two weeks together before he marched to war. That's odd to me. Did they only have sex one time, one night? Or they spent two weeks together but she knew from the moment of conception that Ned had given her a child? Her thoughts are such a mess and I find it easy to question her details. Anyway, back to Ned possibly being at Riverrun twice, but only seeing Catelyn on their wedding day. I don't have a great explanation, except that perhaps Hoster did not want them to meet first, which does seem odd. Perhaps he was hiding something from one of them or the other. Or Ned was never at Riverrun until their wedding, which was either before or after the Battle of the Bells. I don't think we will get a satisfactory answer to this until we get more information from GRRM. And we see Margaery marrying Renly before a battle and then having to declare to many people that her wedding to Renly wasn't consummated so she could claim to be a maiden when she weds Joffrey. Hard to say if people believe her or not, or because Renly was known to be gay, they believed that. Perhaps it would have been better for her never to have wed Renly. When war is going on, I suppose it's a gamble either way.
  15. St Daga

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    It actually doesn't take the body long to pool blood after the heart stops beating. I am a nurse, I see that livor mortis in the course of my work. And the pooled blood area is purple, not black. However, I am not sure what time frame exists in GRRM's world. And yes, if she was in such a state, Lyanna could talk and think and ask for things. We have Cold Hands as an example. Of course, he can't cross the wall, it seems, so I am not sure how that would work, unless Lyanna was north of the wall. I am sure it would be upsetting to see your sister as an undead zombie. And the story gives us plenty of death, like first death, and up to nine times for Varamyr and the idea of a final "true death". Perhaps Ned gave Lyanna her true death, and that is part of his grief. Honestly, I get what you are saying, and I know that it seems like I am talking crazy talk, but I just am willing to consider the possibility of an undead Lyanna. Doesn't hurt to question the text! And agree to disagree!
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