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St Daga

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  1. St Daga

    Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

    It is really hard to say how much of the story that surrounds Dawn is myth or truth. I am thinking that perhaps IF the Dayne that found the meteorite, IF that is really what happened, was much closer to the Torrentine valley than I had previously thought. By this, do you mean Ned's "wraiths"? It could be that Ned's men were dressed in the grey cloaks of men loyal to House Stark. Just as Jon is commanding black cloaked men who are loyal to the Night's watch? Nope, I am not sold on the idea that Bloodraven is the Three-eyed Crow. I think they are probably different beings. I think Euron is either linked to the 3EC or he IS the 3EC. I also kind of like the idea that the 3EC could be Old Nan but it's a bit of a stretch for me. I would not mind it at all, though! I don't think that Dawn glows all the time, or if it did glow, it would even be something that many people would know about. I think if Dawn does glow or become "alive with light" it is something very special. And why should many people know about something like that at all? We really know very little about Dawn or what is going on with it. I think that the "alive with light" is linked to SAD's sad smile, because SAD knows something about Dawn that the rest of us don't know yet. Perhaps it is how a new SotM is chosen! I understand it's tinfoil and don't really expect anyone else to follow me in this idea! Time will tell if I am crazy or not! He followed its track, which is different from 'tracking' it. A shooting star, a meteorite flashing by in a moment. shows a line, a track. If it flashed by low before actually landing (instead of being a brief flash before burning up in the atmosphere) it would show a longer track. And if it passed overhead, that track would give an easily 'followed' direction leading to the landing place. So yes, it is something a person could follow from a distance. Okay, if he didn't follow it's trajectory in the sky, then what kind of "track" did the star leave? A meteorite would be seen for moments, but then it would be gone. Even if it is seem from a long distance, it only lasts a small amount of time. Unless it landed and set the country side on fire and it burned for days and days. I guess a forest fire could be seen for a long distance, at least long enough to track something. I just don't think a meteorite would leave a trail in the sky long enough to track, no matter what angle it flew at. A comet makes more sense for any length of time. However, a smoke trail type could be possible, and might be trackable for several hours. I found this based on meteorite "fireballs". Certainly a small crater would disappear over time, or could be covered. I can see this is possible and there is just nothing visible left of that place the meteorite fell. In my head, I think the story of Dawn is more of a metaphor than an actual happening, but I can see why think it's more literal! The weight of Dawn might be lighter, but it still needs to have size or mass to be considered a great sword. Sorry, if something I have mentioned above is a repeat of later discussion. I just am commenting on a few items and have not caught up with reading the last several days worth of discussion.
  2. St Daga

    Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

    Well, ash can come in multiple shades of grey, as well as white, and black. Volcanic ash is often black or near black, and even reddish in color. I think it's based on it's carbon content. Volcanic ash is a component of making some ceramics, and gosh knows ceramic is tough. I had to bust out a ceramic tile floor in my new house last year and it was the worst home improvement project I was ever part of. Ceramic is hard! And I had multiple cuts from little sliver's of the stuff. It is sharp! Heck, perhaps Dawn is ceramic? Ceramic knives are very strong, they seem to lack corrosion, and they hold an edge for a long time, up to ten times as long as steel, I have heard in advertisements. Perhaps this idea of ceramic, or at least a glaze, is something to consider for Valyrian steel as well as Dawn? As to the dragonbones, it's hard to say if they can be melted down but as was pointed out up thread, it seems like GRRM says that dragonbone is not a component of making Valyrian Steel. Which is too bad since I was starting to form some lovely origami tinfoil based on the idea of a dragon with white bones. I would very much like to see what became of the weirwood at Storm's End. Or even the weirwood branches Mel had the wildlings burn to cross the wall. What happened to that wood after the flames burned it? Maybe you are onto something and what is needed is a terribly hot heat, such as dragonflame, to burn a weirwood, to see what substance is left behind?
  3. St Daga

    Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

    However, there would have to be a very good explanation for why Dawn glowed then and only then, since there is no myth or legend about Dawn doing this that I know of, in the thousands of years it's been part of the story of House Dayne, that we have heard so far... Certainly there are hints to see Ned has some Swiss cheese for memory. It could relate to many things, or one. It would certainly mirror Bran's inability to remember what happened when he fell/was pushed from the tower. But is it that Bran can't remember, or the 3EC won't let him remember? In that same idea, perhaps Ned has not been allowed to remember certain things. I believe we are meant to piece the past together from the stories that we are being told in the present. That could mean that Ned's memories were taken from him, but by whom? As to not ever hearing information on Dawn "glowing", we are not told that. But we are not told much about Dawn, or how the Sword of the Morning is chosen. I personally think the sword picks the wielder, but that would mean the sword is more than just a chunk of metal that was forged by human hands. I could be way off base, and that would not really surprise me, but I really expect magic to pay a role in Dawn and who is worthy to carry it. This description establishes its supernatural origin and nature pretty thoroughly, for me. That is exactly how I picture Dawn being formed; by magic and unhuman means! Well, you can't make a sword out of what hit that roof for certain. And even if it was bigger, big enough to have a sword made of it, then it would have to leave some kind of noted mark behind. Even the piddly little meteorite dented that roof. Meteroites are not pure metel, but would have to have some smelting done to get the pure metal free from other substances. You would be left with the pure ore and then the slag byproduct. and in my head canon, there is more waste than usable material, but I might be way off base on that. I just think a meteorite would leave some type of visible crater. However, Starfall is by the ocean, so perhaps the meteorite hit the water, and the impact cannot be seen so easily! That doesn't explain how they would find the rock in the sea. And I know very little of metal work, so I have no idea how much pure ore it would take to make a great sword, perhaps not as much as I think.
  4. St Daga

    Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

    How far away? Not half the distance of Planetos, if the Daynes migrated from Essos, which I think is probable for them. Of course, meteorite showers happen in the same place each year, so if a person expected to see one, then they might have already traveled to the area to watch, therefore would be near if a meteorite hit the ground. Perhaps the first Dayne of Starfall had been searching for a fallen star as part of a prophecy for years, until he finally found one. Speculation, of course, but I kind of like it.
  5. St Daga

    Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

    Yes, Dany's following the red star (a comet) lead her to Vaes Tolerro, the city of bones. I sometimes think Dany should have stayed here and let her dragons grow. The interesting thing about Dany following her red star into the Red Waste is that Dany realizes that no matter what, because of enemies in other directions, into the red waste is the only direction she could go. If there is a parallel for the Dayne's here, is it that they were forced to go in a certain direction, which conveniently lead to a place where a "star" fell? Vaes Tolerro is considered a white city with walls as "pale as the moon", which does rather remind me of the Palestone Sword Tower at Starfall. I think there are probably more parallel's to be found but I don't have the time at the moment. As to a meteorite leaving some area of destruction around it, I agree. It seems like ever smallish meteorites leave some type of impact crater, so I would think some kind of crater would exist near Starfall. Isn't Starfall said to be built on an island? I wonder how big of an island it is?
  6. St Daga

    Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

    That's just the case I'm making too, though -- that the glowing is only something from his dream, and when he's awake that is really not how he recalls Dawn. I explained myself poorly. I think that the glowing sword, "alive with light" happened, but for some reason, Ned's conscious thought blocks his memory of it, perhaps of many of the details that culminate in his toj/fever dream. PTSD of a sort. I think something that happened there was so awful, that he doesn't want to remember. Or his memory was stripped from him for some reason, but I can't see why this would be. Ned's reaction to Jaime's order to "kill his men" on the street in Kings Landing is so raw, so real, that I think it reminds him of something in the past that was just as upsetting to him. ""No", Ned screamed..." is a pretty visceral reaction, I think. This situation of Jaime and Ned is another odd parallel to the toj, just as I see Waymar's battle with the Other as a parallel. You make a good point about the star and Stark idea. Why the difference of the K, and why would this be the only change. I don't have a good explanation for this, but I am now wondering if perhaps Star was a name, just as Starfall was, but a K was added to the name of a son of the House of Starfall, as a way to separate or distinguish the difference. Perhaps it was even a form of punishment or banishment? We do see something similar (without the punishment or banishment) with House Karstark and GreyStark, only the addition is to the front of the word and not the back of it. This is a very new and loose thought for me, but perhaps House Stark is a cadat branch from the House of Star whose home is Starfall. Maybe at the time of the split. It also makes me think a bit of Dark Star, who could become Darkstar, or the Star that was Dark, Star(dar)K. Perhaps there is something very special if Dark Star does claim the Dawn sword? Claim it and keep it and wield it? Of course, this tinfoil I just spouted above doesn't help with with my idea's of Stark meaning strong, and it is the Stark seed that is strong in our story. Also what if the Dayne sigil is based on the myth, not an actual truth. Did sigil's exist 10,000 years ago? A sigil based on a story that is a myth and the white sword itself. Purple could be a tie back to the color of the eyes of the family, or something else in the idea of the sword and star? More loose thoughts that I really haven't thought much on. Dawn might very well have been forged from a fallen chunk of metal and made into a one of a kind sword. That is a plausible explanation, and if it turns out to be the case, I won't be surprised. I also think it's plausible to think that Dawn is a sword that was taken as a trophy after the war for the Dawn, hence the name of the newly claimed sword. I would not be surprised by this outcome either! The similarities between Dawn and the sword of the Other who fought Waymar are too similar for me to not speculate they are related, or the exact same type of sword. One part of the story about Dawn that is hard for me to associate with a meteorite is the idea that the "first Dayne" followed, tracked, a meteorite. A meteorite flashes for but a moment, and then it is gone, and it's not something a person could follow from a distance (although it would leave an impact crater), where as a comet is something that can be tracked/followed, and tracked/followed from a distance. As a matter of fact, that is exactly what Dany does after her dragons are hatched. She follows the red comet in the sky. So, it makes more sense to me that if a Dayne followed something, it was a comet, and most comet's are made of ice (although they can also have bits of rock, dust and gas), and don't survive impact, or if there is impact, it's pretty bad for the area of impact. However, the idea of a star of ice falling does have nice little hint's of a Stark tradition of naming their family sword Ice. It's hard for me to think the Dayne's and Stark's are not somehow connected, just like Day and Dark is connected in a Yin/Yang type of balance, or day and night. I am more than likely incorrect, but I can't seem to see it any differently, which is probably exactly how you feel about Dawn being made from a fallen meteorite and forged into a one of kind sword. Or it's a good story to explain how a human got the sword of an Other! The debate is great and we certainly don't have to agree!
  7. St Daga

    Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

    Well, I don't think the sword emits light all of the time. I think it being near a Stark, or because of something that was going on in or near the toj, caused the sword to become "alive with light". In this case, most of the time, Dawn would look like a white sword, shiny but with no light effects, but in a very rare instance, the blade becomes something different. As to why Ned might not tell this to Bran, perhaps he himself didn't believe what he saw, or doesn't have that recollection in his waking life, only in his dream life! Well, the whole concept of the name of Starfall could be based on a myth that is perhaps not correct. Or it's actually Stark-fall, or something else. Names or spelling could change as language changes or evolves, and 10,000 years or even 2,000 years is a long time in the course of language development. As to Bran remembering correctly or not, I can only think of how Bran thinks, seems certain even, that his grandfather Rickard was beheaded, when we know that is not what happened to Rickard Stark, (unless we might find some day that the fire didn't kill Rickard Stark, only damaged him, but his final death was by beheading, but that seems unlikely). Bran is a seven year old boy at the start of this story, and one that is fascinated by stories and knights and honor and valor. And a lot of stories that he heard Old Nan tell, the same stories that the Neddard no doubt heard as a child before being shipped off to the vale. Bran could be just as unreliable as a narrator as any of our other characters.
  8. St Daga

    Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

    Well, it does in Ned's fever dream. Do you mean it also glows like this literally, and currently, in a way anyone can see looking at it? I would be very surprised, because no other reference to Dawn mentions such an extraordinary quality. For instance, the Smiling Knight said he wanted the "white" sword as opposed to the "glowing" sword, and Jaime recalls Dawn's sharpness, but not that it emitted light. Actually, Ned didn't mention Dawn glowing either, to Bran, in describing Dawn when he was conscious. So I think Dawn is "alive with light" only in the same way blue eyes are "the eyes of death" and the sky above the TOJ was "blood-streaked." These are surrealistic aspects of his dream as opposed to literal traits drawn from reality. I am of a belief that Dawn did become "alive with light" at some point, and Eddard saw that. I know we get that description from his fever dream but some aspects should be correct. In the same way that he might have seen someone with blue eyes that reminded him of death (the Others or wights), why can't the sword Dawn have the properties of the blades of the Other's, at least the blade of the Other that dueled Waymar is described as very similar to our descriptions of Dawn. I actually think that the blade called to Eddard (by becoming alive with light) and that is why SAD had a sad smile on his face; because he knows his time as SotM is almost up. The blade has chosen someone new... but that, of course, is like tinfoil that is alive with light... I also think the "blood streaked sky" could indicate either the sky at dawn or dusk, a red tinged sky, especially if smoke was involved from a burning tower. I suppose we can debate ourselves in circles about what aspects of the toj fever dream are real, are surreal, or are a combination of two or three different happening, or a reality mixed with a vision. The descriptions are very similar. Dawn is noted to be a white blade (which I think it is most of the time) or also it is described as pale. both from Jaime's POV and the World Book. In the above case, the Other's blade is alive with "moonlight" which is interesting, as perhaps it is the moonlight that has some connection with Dawn. There are so many descriptions in the text of the dawn being pale or having different colors associated with the first light of dawn. It is also described as crystal that is so thin, it is like a razor, which fit's Jaime's remembrance of Dawn which was so thin and sharp, it cut through his tunic and made him bleed from a tap on the shoulder. Will tells us that the Other's blade was forged with "no human metal", and it's wielder has blue eyes "that burned like ice" which could very well fit the description of Eddard's fever dream. I think what we see in the toj from Ned's fever dream and the prologue to our story are very similar. My initial thoughts years ago on the Dawn blade were that it was the weapon of the Other's. If that weapon was once wielded by a Stark who "fell" or died or was defeated, could that not be seen as a forging? Like maester's forge their education, the Pact that was forged between the FM and the CotF, the idea of using Lord Eddard to forge a peace between the Stark's and Lannister's until Joffrey fooked it up, forging a letter as it the wording is used once in the text. I just don't think that Dawn was really a chunk of meteorite, although it could be. I think it's more likely to be the sword of an Other. Although I do wonder if Ned's description and Bran's description of the "forging" of Dawn are based on Old Nan's stories, or common tales told about Dawn, or even the concept that a sword must be forged when that might not be the truth, and is therefore something that is repeated. Dawn and Valyrian steel are said to be similar in sharpness and strength and weight, but they are obviously different. It seems like magic from Valyria, the Lands of the Long Summer are part of forging these blades and once Valyria was lost, the ability to forge a blade such as this was lost. Yes, it can be reworked, but it's not starting from scratch. What if Dawn mimic's this idea, but in an opposite manner. What if it was forged in the cold of the Lands of Always Winter, and when the magic of the Other's was lost, then the ability to forge such a blade as Dawn was lost with it. But, now that cold is returning, the Other's are returning, and I wonder if we might see a reforging of the Dawn blade. Over the last year or so I have come to think that Dawn is broken, and was broken in SAD and Eddard's duel at the toj, so perhaps like Valyrian steel that can be reworked by Tobho Mott (or someone with similar skills or magic spells), Dawn might be able to be reworked? If Dawn is the blade of an Other, it is noted to be like crystal, so it might not be made of metal at all! We never hear Ned say that Dawn is forged from a meteorite, or even a fallen star. That is something that Bran thinks about in conjunction with Ned talking about Ser Arthur Dayne, but what if Bran has jumbled, confused or misremembered the actual words that Ned said? An interpretation of "fallen star" has become a meteorite for many readers, but that might not be the correct interpretation for "fallen star". Even if what fell from the sky is what the Dawn sword is made of, it is more likely the debris of a comet. A comet can be seen for days, weeks, month's sometimes, and that would fit the myth better of being able to track a "fallen star". Comet's are made mostly of ice, so if a giant chunk of ice hit the earth, it would be a very bad day, it might even bring on a nuclear winter or "a long night". Now, I don't necessarily think this is what happened, but the idea of tracking a fallen star for some distance fit's the idea of a comet in the sky and not a meteorite, which is usually a fairly quick flash of light. However, I am more inclined to think that GRRM is working with metaphor's in this case, and I think "fallen star" is just as likely to be "a fallen Stark" as a object from the sky. I am sure someday we will get an answer for this, but until we get more text on the subject, one idea is as likely as the other. Or, the Dawn sword belonged to an Other, and it was claimed by someone of House Dayne at the end of the Long Night. Claiming the blade of a defeated enemy who was associated with night might make a person rename their new blade something that comes at the end of a night, which would be dawn. And while fantasy blades have certainly been made of material of the cosmos, I am not sure if that is what GRRM is doing. That idea would certainly fit a trope in fantasy writing, but GRRM is about twisting or redefining such tropes, so I don't know if he would go with a blade forged from metal from outer space. Time will tell, I hope...
  9. St Daga

    Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

    It's here. Thank you! Well, in the text, forge isn't always used to describe the making of metal like items. Sometimes it's used to explain the process a maester goes through at the Citadel, and I don't think the reference is in making the links to a Maester's chain, but in earning it. Forging doesn't necessarily mean to work with metal, although in the case that GRRM is using to talk about Valyrian steel, it might be. Forge is used to describe the Pact between the First Men and the CotF, and it's used to describe the writing of a letter, so "forging" isn't as clear cut as it might seem. Well, this last fall, I was looking for two specific things that I knew I had read previously in the SSM's but could find neither. One was the comments that Parris had made about RLJ and honestly the other I can't think of right now. But today I did attempt to look for the Parris comments again, and I did find it. The comments about RLJ being "basic" (although I honestly think it was worded differently than I found today) So, perhaps last fall I just didn't look hard enough. But it seems like they have been reordered or organized a bit differently, and the error was that I wasn't looking in the correct place. Purge was certainly an overly strong word to use, but "cleaned up" feels to much like Clorox was dumped on them. I wish I could think of the other thing I was looking for. I know I made notes about them but can't find the notes now. I really wish I could, because perhaps I could find the answer in the SSM's like I had hoped last fall. It seems like the problem might have been my own search malfunction, not the SSM's themselves!
  10. St Daga

    Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

    Thanks. I have not read all the SSM's and I really think they have recently been purged of some information, but I will try to see if I can find this information. If dragonbone doesn't have anything to do with a forming of Valyrian steel, then it's doubtful that the idea of milkglass being made from "bone calcination" will in anyway relate to Dawn and it's milkglass imagery!
  11. St Daga

    Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

    It does seem hard to ignore Dayne name as having "day" or "dawn" sound to it, just like Stark certainly rhymes with "dark". Dawn and Dark, Day and Dark. Perhaps they are yin and yang, two parts of a whole, but it's important that balance remains! This does hint that what ever happned between SAD/SotM and the Neddard at the toj upset some type of balance!
  12. St Daga

    Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

    I have also speculated in the past that Ice would be reforged into one blade, a weapon wielded by a special person of Stark blood. I have kind of let that idea slide in the last couple years, because I have begun to see the potential of Ice becoming two blades, meaning we have twice the specialness related to these two blades. Although the swords are red and black, and that does not fit ice or winter imagery very well, I think the black blade with the red ripples might fit the idea of dragon's and weirwoods, two things that seem important in this story. However, if Ice is reforged (which would make my heart happy, I can't lie) then I speculate that we have already seen the sword hilt that will be used. In the prologue of Game, we have Waymar's sword shattered but the hilt remaining, a jeweled hilt, and then books later, in Dance, we have Jon noting a sword hilt in the pile of treasures the wildlings are using to pay their way across the wall. One of those "treasures" was "a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt". I think this is Waymar's sword hilt and I think it's important in the story. I still think it could be used to reforge Ice, (and the sapphires do fit the color concept of blue that is associated with the Starks) but I also have some tinfoil that it is Dawn that is broken, and might need to be reforged. I don't know if stabbing Lady Stoneheart is what the sword would need to bring it some magic, but there is imagery of Ned "stabbing" Catelyn with his "weapon" in Game-Cat II, when they have sex (pardon the puns) and there are hints in the story about Ned and Catelyn trying to have another child. Cat notes that Ned's body does not have Ice, which mirrors the Osiris myth, when his body is put back together but his phallus is missing, and another must be made it it's place so Isis and Osiris 2.0 can create their child, Horus. Perhaps Ice, which does seemed changed by Eddards blood, being plunged into Catelyn/Stoneheart, which could mimic the sex act, then would give creation to a very special child/sword!
  13. St Daga

    Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

    This information on milk glass is interesting, especially the idea that bone ash is used in the process. Thanks for triggering this line of thought, as I had never considered it before. If Dawn is made of milkglass, does that mean it's made of a special person or beings bones? I did just a little looking into milk glass and it comes in a variety of colors, not just while, but blue, yellow, pink and black (very interesting!!), and it can be quite opaque or quite translucent. In my head, I always imagined that the Dawn sword was somewhat translucent but it might not be. Most people refer to it as a "white sword" so it must be pretty opaque, and if it was more translucent, they might call it a glass sword or something. Still is very interesting to me that in Ned' fever dream, he sees the sword as "alive with light" but the rest of the descriptions that we have for it call it "white". So, what happened when Ned saw Dawn? Did the sword react to Ned, as I have previously speculated, or was it part of some sort of sacrifice or magic ritual that Ned came upon, which other people have speculated. Other things in the story that are associated with milkglass are the "ghost grass" of the Dothraki sea, bottles that hold maester's medicines and the bones of the Other that Samwell killed, the bones of which seemed to dissolve into a mist. Could the bones of the Other's OR the ghost grass be a part of making Dawn? Is there a hint in the idea that this white glass is used for medicine (perhaps hinting at magic)? Can you turn dragonbone into ash? Does it ever breakdown to that state? I don't know if it does. We have several mentions of dragonbone, all black so far, and hard and shiny. But no signs of ash. But I suppose a person could beat at it until it forms into smaller particles. I used to think that dragonbone could be melted in a forge and that process helped to form Valyrian steel, but now I really doubt any forge could get hot enough to change the consistency of dragonbone. But maybe it can! Maybe other dragons are needed to heat a forge high enough to melt or dissolve or breakdown dragonglass? Oh, not really. The concept of the base metal coming from the meteorite, per se, says nothing about the new forging process that would probably be required to work a completely novel metal into a sword. I certainly wouldn't expect a smith to nail it the first time, any more than smiths in our world did when they first began combining carbon and iron to create steel. Dragons are something that comes from the sky, and one that crashed might fit the imagery of a meteorite. So, what if a dragon fell from the sky, a dragon with white bones, and those bones are what is part of forging the Dawn sword. Since the dragonbone we see in the story seems to be black, how rare would a dragon with white bones be? As rare as the Dawn sword? One of a kind, perhaps!
  14. St Daga

    Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

    This is a super interesting thought!!! Maybe that is something that was new with their move to a new continent!
  15. St Daga

    Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

    Sometimes I think my mind has been corrupted by a virus called GRRM and nothing will ever be the same... Seriously, though, I have become so oddly numb and accepting to some of the extreme concepts of these novels, that it seems a little vanilla without at least considering such things as possible, or downright hinted at! Incest and child sacrifice are just two of the concepts that have become almost ordinary for this story.
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