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Illyrio Mo'Parties

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  1. you see my mega post on recognition? got zero response here AFAIK.

  2. OT: what's the best Elric of Melnibone book to start with?
  3. I still cling to the hope that there's something more going on with Doran than meets the eye. I'm half-convinced - with some evidence! - that Doran wanted Quentyn to harmlessly waste his time in the Free Cities, and although that involved entrusting Quentyn with a dangerous secret, it didn't involve trusting him with anything Doran thought was really crucial. And it seems to be the case that Doran isn't ever going to rely on Arianne for anything important either. (Yes, I know that he's sent her to see Aegon, but I think that expedition is totally under Doran's control, and is merely an intelligence gathering and bet-hedging exercise. I mean, he tells her that one raven from her will mean the difference between peace and war, but can we trust him?) (As an aside: when Doran tells Arianne that Dorne doesn't really have 50,000 spears, do we have any independent confirmation that he's telling the truth? Maybe that's the lie!) But what possible explanation could there be for Doran not preparing his kids for their political futures? I can only think of crazy reasons: 1. He plans to disinherit them both one day 2. They're not really his kids 3. They're his kids, but he's not really Doran Martell 4. He's Doran Martell, and they're his kids, but he has a secret older sibling whose children are the rightful heirs to Dorne If all the Dornish story amounts to is, "Doran fucked up", then I think we'll all be pretty disappointed. It's not that "Doran fucked up" is a bad story... but it ought to be a short one. GRRM's devoted a lot of pages to it (and still will), and what's more, he's written it in a way that deliberately promotes mystery. Multiple conflicting POVs, none of which are the actual major player, suggests that said major player has something hidden up his sleeve.
  4. Yeah, I think that part was meant to show us that she's still superficial - she liked Darkstar because of his looks, and she thinks she's learned that lesson, but here she is disliking Lysono because of his looks, again judging a book by its cover. Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, should be pretty easy to manipulate. Doran dun goofed - you'd think after 17 years he could've scrounged up some better agents than his idiot family. Now he's fucked.
  5. Interesting. If theories about Doran being not so green as he's cabbage-looking1 are true, then this would fit exactly with his M.O. - let Arianne think she's taken on more responsibility than she has, see how she handles it, try to gauge her abilities - perhaps while sending along more trusted agents2 to keep an eye on her and give an independent report. As well as saddle her with Elia Sand, to drive home the point about recklessness and silliness, and perhaps to help her see her previous actions from Doran's perspective. That Doran, he's a crafty one... we hope. ------------------------------------------------ 1. As my mother would say. 2. This idea I find interesting: which, if any, are the secret agents in Arianne's party? It's probably not Elia Sand, which leaves... well, you know what, this ain't exactly relevant only to this particular chapter, and this thread is already 44 pages long, so I'll start a new topic. Watch this space! Edit: here 'tis
  6. I think you're most likely right, but I do want to throw out a possibility why Euron would spare the west without necessarily it being to set up a Cersei alliance: by bypassing the Westerlands and the North, the traditional and most recent targets of Ironborn war, Euron is signalling to his men and the realm that he has bigger dreams. It's audacious: hitting the Shield Islands, raiding the Mander, taking the Arbor and perhaps attacking Oldtown: nobody would've thought this was possible, but Euron's doing it, and this frightens his enemies and emboldens his men. Compare with Hannibal crossing the Alps. Not to mention, it fits Euron's character: he's mad as a box of frogs, and he wants the Iron Throne, or more; he doesn't care about the little things, and Lannisport to him is perhaps one of those little things. There's also a strategic element, potentially: if the Redwyne fleet is the only serious naval presence left in Westeros (and as far as Euron knows, it is), then by attacking the Reach he can force a confrontation with it. Whether he's drawing them into a magical trap or not, he at least has taken the initiative and will be able to fight the coming battle on his terms. And if he wins, then he gains naval supremacy over the whole of Westeros. Move fast, strike hard, win a few early victories and then shock the realm with something audacious: it seems Euron and Jon Connington think alike. (Is Euron = Daario = Jon Connington = Rhaegar = Neo = Freedom?!?) Like I said, most likely you're right and it's just an excuse to make a coming Euron/Cersei alliance make more sense, but if that doesn't happen there's still plenty of justification for his moves. I hope I'm not repeating anything that's already been said. Further thought: if Cersei burns down King's Landing, as some have theorised, how will that affect her potential relationship with Euron? Will he admire her audacity and her evil? Or will he be angry at her for destroying his prize?
  7. His father? Maybe, but the Greyjoys all seem like pretty terrible people. And it's not like there was police or teachers or social services he could've called, like in the real world.
  8. Well, I don't think "Crows" refers specifically to Euron Crow's Eye, but I do think it refers to him, among others. If memory serves, the "feast for crows" metaphor - is it Jaime that comes out with it? - has to do with how crows scavenge meat from the dead after a battle; now, with the war over, there will be plenty of "crows" come to "feast" on the leftovers, i.e. the weakened state of the realm provides opportunity to certain unsavoury characters, both big and small. Euron being one of the biggest.
  9. Kudos for picking up those biblical references. I ain't too au fait with the good book myself, but I suppose there are also echoes of Cain and Abel in Euron killing his brothers, and of Job in Aeron's suffering and temptations. My frame of reference is considerably more vulgar, but Euron reminds me of a few great villains - the Joker, sure, but also Anton Chigurh from No Country for Old Men and the sheriff from Pop. 1280, both of whom seem to have moved beyond ordinary human considerations of right and wrong. The sheriff - spoiler alert! - even literally comes to see himself as the second coming of Christ, and Chigurh at least sees himself as an avatar of fate, or the judgment of the universe. With that in mind, I don't consider Euron's war on the gods to be proof of atheism; and when he claims to be a god, he's not just taunting Aeron. I think that reveals something about how he sees the world, and his place in it. Maybe he doesn't literally consider himself a god, but he certainly seems to think himself profoundly superior to the rest of humanity. He's nek-levellin' it.
  10. There's no accounting for taste, of course, but personally you're confusing "complicated" for "interesting". Also: Damphair is the shit. I'll never understand why people don't find him fascinating.
  11. Yah, to be clear, I'm not saying Varys and Illyrio have no role to play, nor even that they couldn't make important things happen still; just that they're less important/powerful than they were, now that the game is also being played out in the open, and by more players, and such. They've lost a degree of control - but it's a sacrifice they were going to have to make, if they ever wanted to win.
  12. Thanks for reminding me about the Elder Brother. As for Varys & Illyrio... I agree that they'll be doing everything in their power to help Aegon, but now that their scheme has moved from an espionage phase to a more conventional military phase, their power is diminished. Varys can pull some strings in King's Landing, like he did in the ADWD Epilogue, and that will help. But it's really just battlespace preparation, and it's up to Jon Connington and Aegon himself to actually win that battle. We've seen from Tyrion and Jon Connington's chapters that Aegon is making his own decisions, independent of what Varys and Illyrio might have planned. And now they're actually in Westeros, swinging swords... could Varys or Illyrio have helped them take Storm's End? I doubt they even knew about it until it was done. Things have moved out of their sphere of influence, and the pace of events has picked up too: frankly, I doubt Illyrio can have too much influence at all now, unless he pulls a diplomatic coup in Essos. By the time information gets to Illyrio from Westeros, events will have passed him by entirely. Even Varys will be struggling to keep up. Nay, it's all in Aegon and Jon Connington's hands now... unless I'm completely wrong. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Euron's collection of tongues, we have to keep in mind that he's mad as a spoon, and may just enjoy the silence. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ah, but did he? Let's say I have a trinket. You think it's very valuable, and I think it's a worthless piece of shit. If I give you the trinket, am I really being generous? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Euron reminds me of a story I read about Charles Manson. Supposedly he was in Venice Beach - this is before the murders - and he was preaching his standard hippie crap to a crowd there assembled. "Imagine no possessions", all that garbage. And a guy says, hey, you're saying we ought to give up all our possessions, but I don't see you giving up that nice van you have. And Charlie says, you want it? Take it, and gives him the keys. This is the sort of thing that impressed the teenage runaways and muddle-headed freaks who became the Manson Family. But it was all bullshit. Manson wasn't above stealing things, or mooching off wealthy patrons. What did it pain him to give away his car, when he knew he'd get another one somehow? And when he knew that the act of giving it away would bring more people to his side? Which is what was really important to him. It's hard to get the measure of someone as loopy as Charles Manson, because his scale of value is so askew. Ditto for Euron, or the Joker, or any similar monstrous lunatic. But it makes for a fascinating character. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Three more things: 1. This notion that Euron is an agent of the Others strikes me as wishful thinking. The evidence is thin, and the course of Euron's life doesn't go anywhere near the North. I don't doubt that Euron is destined for more than merely being the latest pretender to the throne, but secretly working for the Others? I can't see Euron working for anyone but himself. 2. I will never understand why people didn't like the Aeron chapters. He's awesome! Sadly, he's probably not long for this world. How long do you think a man can survive lashed to the prow of a ship? He's effectively crucified. 3. I don't give much credence to the idea that Euron is working with the Faceless Men, either. But hiring them with a dragon egg? Perfectly plausible. Lots of people are pooh-poohing the idea because the Bravoosi presumably hate dragons, but you're forgetting that, prior to Dany's miraculous hatching, a dragon's egg was merely a valuable trinket. Quoth Jorah: "My queen, Drogo will have no use for dragon's eggs in the night lands. Better to sell them in Asshai. Sell one and we can buy a ship to take us back to the Free Cities. Sell all three and you will be a wealthy woman all your days." Of course, there's the problem that the dragon's egg probably wasn't worth that much to Euron, and the Faceless Men require a true sacrifice... but, I don't know, maybe he's just a really good liar. Or maybe he used an intermediary who did value a dragon's egg. We'll have to wait and see.
  13. Wha? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nah, Varys & Illyrio have shot their wad, and their ability to effect change is vastly diminished. They work best behind the scenes, but Aegon has stepped onto the stage now, and his fate is out of their hands. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AZOR AHAI ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What? FF? What? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wonder about the practicality of that. It seems this chapter explains why a man as crazy as Euron would inspire any loyalty at all, that is, by being very open-handed with the loot. But how many people are willing to trade their tongue for some treasure? Surely he must have at least some loyal compadres aboard the Silence who can still talk. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bloody hell, she got pregnant fast. Unless he's got... magic sperm!? TWOW really is going to be epic
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