Bael's Bastard

The show versions of Ned, Jon, and Daenerys weren't the most charismatic, but that didn't stop a lot of people from loving them. There isn't one way or reason fans connect to characters or a show. And dragons weren't everyone's reason for watching. Anecdotally, me and a lot of history-loving friends of mine got into the books/show despite fantasy elements like dragons. There's been several movies or shows with dragons that didn't catch on with anywhere near as many people as GOT did.

23 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

How do you know that Renly wasn’t planning on bringing it up to Robert?  Why do you think he had a replacement queen in mind?  Outside of having Cersei secretly killed, how do you think Renly was going to replace Cersei?  The only one that would be in a position to get rid of Cersei was Robert.

But it makes sense, that before Renly made this move, he would want someone lined up to take her place, someone that would be in his camp.

That replacement queen belonged to one of the only families in Westeros whose wealth was comparable to the Lannisters, and without the awful reputations of Tywin and his brood. It is a no-brainer for Renly, who has close personal ties with the Tyrells and believes the Lannisters will move to kill or cut off Robert and his friends and family.

The Lannisters openly tainted Robert's reign from day one after doing nothing to help their king and nothing to support the rebellion until the rebellion was on its final march to take King's Landing. The Tyrells, meanwhile, did not bend the knee until Robert had already secured the throne.

Whatever can be said about the Tyrells and their secret ambitions, they fought for their king to the end and beyond.

Renly didn't know or even necessarily believe the accusation. What he knew/believed was that the Lannisters were usurping control over Robert's heirs and were going to dispose of Robert, his brothers, and friends in the process of accomplishing it. He was perfectly willing to strike first, take control over Robert's heirs, and keep them on the throne so long as it put him in a strong/safe position.

On 11/12/2022 at 3:50 PM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

What if that was also part of Rhaegar's plan . To save his father from Tywin and his BLAST conspiracy ?

There was no such conspiracy, as demonstrated by the fact that Tywin was still trying to finagle a Cersei/Rhaegar match after Elia and Rhaegar were already married and had a kid.

Thanks for the mention, @Kal-L. I check the forums and make a post from time to time, but not as frequently. Lack of new main series material is a contributing factor, but so is free time. I think TWOW would bring some people back, but who knows how other factors might impact that.

On 5/10/2023 at 6:28 PM, maesternewton said:

The is a popular theory that due to "Southern Ambitions", Rickard Stark betrothed Brandon to Catelyn and Lyanna to Robert, allying the North with the Riverlands and the Stormlands. That by having Ned and Robert fostered at the Eyrie, they were cementing a friendship thereby allying with the Vale. 

Creating the STAB alliance; Stark, Tully, Arryn and Baratheon.

1. Was it created for benevolent or malicious reasons? 

2. What were each of the lords thinking when they betrothed their children? What were their goals?

The STAB alliance only exists in hindsight.

House Arryn had no marriage ties to Stark, Tully, or Baratheon until well into the war when Jon wed Lysa (and Ned Catelyn) for Hoster's troops. House Arryn/Jon's connection to Tully was a war-time decision, while his connection to Stark and Baratheon was based on paternal feelings for Ned and Robert, not marriage ties.

House Baratheon under Robert's father was arguably one of the two or three closest major houses to House Targaryen, so Jon fostering/Rickard fostering his son with the heir of House Baratheon was more likely to be motivated by networking with those close to the throne than having any malicious intention towards the Targaryens, especially way back in 271, just a handful of years after Rickard's visit to KL inspired Aerys to want to build a new Wall.

Hoster didn't turn against Aerys until well into the war, and when he was trying to wed Lysa to Jaime Tywin was still Aerys's most trusted servant, himself still trying to realize his dream of his daughter wed to Prince Rhaegar.

Rickard's "Southern Ambitions," to the extent they existed, were in favor of increased relations with the throne and the south, not a conspiracy against the Targaryens or Aerys. He betrothed his heir to a house long allied to and owing its status to House Targaryen, which itself was once considered worthy to provide a queen, though Prince Duncan screwed that up.

Even if Rickard completely played a long game hoping way back in 271 that friendship between Ned and Robert would lead to a marriage between Lyanna and Robert (seems unlikely), Robert initiated the betrothal, and at the time the Starks would have been marrying one of the two or three closest major houses to the throne, which could even one day supply a queen.

So STAB is only a thing in hindsight, a self-fulfilling prophecy of Aerys's paranoia.

Somewhat comparable to Athaliah, who ruled Judah for 7 years after death of her son King Ahaziah & was otherthrown by the High Priest Jehoiada & his wife the daughter of Athaliah, who placed Athaliah's surviving grandson of 7 or 8 on the throne. Obviously differences, but ultimately her reign wasn't recognized as legitimate by the biblical authors even though she literally ruled & had power for 7 years.

21 minutes ago, DMC said:

You'd have to make up a lot of material not at all in the books to fill up 8 or so episodes only a year before Viserys' death.

IMO that would have been preferable to what felt like trying to hit a checklist of events covering 30 years, with few of them having much time to feel meaningful. The book is bare bones, so it's not like adapting ASOIAF. Pertinent background info could've been used to craft the last months of the buildup to the Dance. Aegon, Aemond, Helaena, Jace, Luke, and the kids never/barely introduced could have used considerably more time. You don't have to invent major tragedies or wars to do that, just create scenes that develop the traits you want people to associate with them. 

11 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

What's your take on Aemond not wanting to kill Luke and losing control of Vhagar?

To me it's the most significant change they've made to the book story, even more than Alicent's.

I think it gives Aemond depth but also deprives him of agency. He basically starts the DoD by accident.

I like it though, show Aemond didn't seem half as mad as his book version.

I actually liked how the dragons went into business for themselves (whether based on their own attitudes or underlying attitudes of their riders), and how illusory the notion of complete control over them became when it was dragon being turned against dragon rather than just against human enemies.

With the first full season finished, they should have started a year/six months before Viserys' death, and given the kids a full season to develop and grow on the audience, rather than trying to depict so much backstory. Important background info could've been revealed over time when useful. Still enjoy it, but the aged up kids and other players needed more time.

On 10/10/2022 at 9:54 AM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Which means that there was no need for the prophecy scene at all.

Nah, it's fine, there's rarely just one reason why events happen in history

8 hours ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

For my own part, I despise their use of Allicent misunderstand the prophecy. It's terrible storytelling and thoroughly umsatisfying for that to be a motivation and the deciding factor in her going through with things.

I assume it will be a factor, but when it gets down to it, Rhaenyra's marriage to Daemon guaranteed that Otto and Alicent were not just going to go along with putting the fate of her sons in their hands.

3 hours ago, zajaz said:

If the roles in the Rhaenyra / Criston scene were reversed (Rhaenyra was an old maid, and Criston a young prince), wouldn't the scene seem kinda... problematic?

You mean like Cersei & Lancel?

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Was that the origin of the Bracken/Blackwood fued?

Nah, the origin of their feud is that the first Bracken and Blackwood were actually twins, Bracken came out first but Blackwood claimed the milk sources first and established an exorbitant tax for use.

I didn't mind Daemon's ridiculous scene too much. It is completely in line with his showing at the tourney and in the standoff with Otto. He has all the confidence and arrogance of a man boy prince with a dragon that knows he is worth more alive than dead, whether to pirates or to the Triarchy. Now, maybe they would have had no trouble killing him, but I think this ridiculous show of arrogance is in line with the character they established.

4 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

If season 8 couldn't kill interest in the IP, then I doubt the HotD pilot will.

Not talking about killing interest, just wondering how much it will succeed in generating as people actually watch over the weeks.

Of course there's interest, the question is how many of those were convinced to come back next week.

A report that a Jon Snow series is in the works does not in any way, shape, or form market a Dance of the Dragons series. Step away from the computer for a bit. These are not rational responses to the report.

Jon spent almost the entire original series in the snow at, around, beyond the Wall, so what would be the point of this show?

3 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

The finale was the most watched episode in HBO history, GOT was the most in-demand show of 2020, and the season 8 Blu Ray topped the sales charts. I think it’s safe to say people enjoyed it.

Chill, Amanda Peet

18 hours ago, Mithras said:

D&E started before the Blackfyre backstory existed. After the introduction of the Blackfyre backstory, D&E became increasingly intermingled with it. Now it seems highly implausible to think of a D&E story without some reference to the Blackfyre threat which will persist until after Egg's death. If you want to strictly follow the source material, all the later Blackfyre rebellions should be featured in the D&E show. But that brings a lot of problems. First of all, the first Blackfyre Rebellion would be out of the scope of this adaptation. That would require at least a full feature movie about the First Blackfyre Rebellion before this show starts. Second, introducing the later Blackfyre pretenders would cause loss of interest among the watchers, just like Ragnar's sons could not carry the show after Ragnar's death.

I think you're over complicating things. The BF rebellion is just the Robert's Rebellion of ASOIAF, recent backstory for the current characters. Daemon, like Rhaegar, is best kept a dead man hated by some and beloved by others, who we learn about through them. Bittersteel is a much more interesting character in the first place. There's no real comparison with Ragnar, who was the central character, not to mention that had more to do with awful writing than anything. Not to say they couldn't tweak the timeline to have the BF rebellion occur during Dunk and Egg's time together, but I don't think that is a better story, or necessary.

6 hours ago, Crona said:

Does anyone know when Rhaegar presented Rhaenys, was it after Elia’s 6 months bed rest or right after Rhaenys was born?

I don't think it's made clear. Since Rhaegar and Elia wed in early 280, the presentation seems likely to have occurred between the last few months of 280 and first few months of 281. The fact that only Rhaegar is mentioned could indicate he went to make the presentation without Elia, or could indicate nothing at all.

13 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Great examples given.  I never noticed the knights in House Locke before.

Another smaller detail is the fact that Branda Stark (Rickard's maternal aunt; his mother Lyarra's sister) married into House Rogers, a house from the Stormlands.  It's possible that men from that house also influenced Lyarra and/or Rickard.

He also had an aunt Jocelyn that married a Royce, and three cousins through her that married Vale lordlings. I doubt Rickard was an actual knight, but he was probably a northern equivalent, and was IMO definitely positively disposed towards southern cultures and traditions.

40 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I understand your argument, I just think it falls flat.  His dreams did include Robert and Littlefinger, but ultimately disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises?  That’s his dream of the Lyanna and the winter crown.  

A disturbing dream involving Ned is later echoed by Bran:

It’s clear that Ned is haunted by a promise he gave Lyanna on her death bed, a promise involving Jon.  “Promise me Ned” isn’t echoed throughout the story because Ned is reminded of his promise to keep Jon safe from Robert.  Because even after Robert’s death Ned continues to be haunted by that promise.

And speaking of Robert, Robert’s death is a reminder that Ned may not always be truthful when he promises to do something for a dying loved one.

Now compare that to Ned’s last dream of Lyanna:

Lyanna elicited a promise from Ned that Ned could not do.  And like son like father, Ned has suppressed an unpleasant truth.

Ned promised Robert that he would look after his children, and indeed he intended to look after his bastards, and even to let his legal children escape danger. But he obviously had no intention of carrying out Robert's wishes as he expressed them.

Ned has kept Jon safe from the people around Robert that would kill him in a heartbeat if they knew his paternal identity. But I absolutely expect to find out that Ned did not carry out the full extent of Lyanna's wishes as she expressed them.

I highly doubt that Lyanna wanted Ned to raised Jon as his own son forever, and never tell him about her.

16 hours ago, lehutin said:

The "broken promises" in Eddard XV may be mundane and have nothing to do with Jon. They could simply be referring to a broken promise from Littlefinger:

or promises Ned made to Barra's mother and now couldn't keep:

Not to mention that he had to violate his oath to his best friend Robert almost immediately following his accession to the kingship, in order to keep his promises to Lyanna, and to keep Jon's identity a secret for the past fifteen years.