Bael's Bastard

On 5/10/2023 at 6:28 PM, maesternewton said:

The is a popular theory that due to "Southern Ambitions", Rickard Stark betrothed Brandon to Catelyn and Lyanna to Robert, allying the North with the Riverlands and the Stormlands. That by having Ned and Robert fostered at the Eyrie, they were cementing a friendship thereby allying with the Vale. 

Creating the STAB alliance; Stark, Tully, Arryn and Baratheon.

1. Was it created for benevolent or malicious reasons? 

2. What were each of the lords thinking when they betrothed their children? What were their goals?

The STAB alliance only exists in hindsight.

House Arryn had no marriage ties to Stark, Tully, or Baratheon until well into the war when Jon wed Lysa (and Ned Catelyn) for Hoster's troops. House Arryn/Jon's connection to Tully was a war-time decision, while his connection to Stark and Baratheon was based on paternal feelings for Ned and Robert, not marriage ties.

House Baratheon under Robert's father was arguably one of the two or three closest major houses to House Targaryen, so Jon fostering/Rickard fostering his son with the heir of House Baratheon was more likely to be motivated by networking with those close to the throne than having any malicious intention towards the Targaryens, especially way back in 271, just a handful of years after Rickard's visit to KL inspired Aerys to want to build a new Wall.

Hoster didn't turn against Aerys until well into the war, and when he was trying to wed Lysa to Jaime Tywin was still Aerys's most trusted servant, himself still trying to realize his dream of his daughter wed to Prince Rhaegar.

Rickard's "Southern Ambitions," to the extent they existed, were in favor of increased relations with the throne and the south, not a conspiracy against the Targaryens or Aerys. He betrothed his heir to a house long allied to and owing its status to House Targaryen, which itself was once considered worthy to provide a queen, though Prince Duncan screwed that up.

Even if Rickard completely played a long game hoping way back in 271 that friendship between Ned and Robert would lead to a marriage between Lyanna and Robert (seems unlikely), Robert initiated the betrothal, and at the time the Starks would have been marrying one of the two or three closest major houses to the throne, which could even one day supply a queen.

So STAB is only a thing in hindsight, a self-fulfilling prophecy of Aerys's paranoia.

Somewhat comparable to Athaliah, who ruled Judah for 7 years after death of her son King Ahaziah & was otherthrown by the High Priest Jehoiada & his wife the daughter of Athaliah, who placed Athaliah's surviving grandson of 7 or 8 on the throne. Obviously differences, but ultimately her reign wasn't recognized as legitimate by the biblical authors even though she literally ruled & had power for 7 years.

21 minutes ago, DMC said:

You'd have to make up a lot of material not at all in the books to fill up 8 or so episodes only a year before Viserys' death.

IMO that would have been preferable to what felt like trying to hit a checklist of events covering 30 years, with few of them having much time to feel meaningful. The book is bare bones, so it's not like adapting ASOIAF. Pertinent background info could've been used to craft the last months of the buildup to the Dance. Aegon, Aemond, Helaena, Jace, Luke, and the kids never/barely introduced could have used considerably more time. You don't have to invent major tragedies or wars to do that, just create scenes that develop the traits you want people to associate with them. 

11 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

What's your take on Aemond not wanting to kill Luke and losing control of Vhagar?

To me it's the most significant change they've made to the book story, even more than Alicent's.

I think it gives Aemond depth but also deprives him of agency. He basically starts the DoD by accident.

I like it though, show Aemond didn't seem half as mad as his book version.

I actually liked how the dragons went into business for themselves (whether based on their own attitudes or underlying attitudes of their riders), and how illusory the notion of complete control over them became when it was dragon being turned against dragon rather than just against human enemies.

With the first full season finished, they should have started a year/six months before Viserys' death, and given the kids a full season to develop and grow on the audience, rather than trying to depict so much backstory. Important background info could've been revealed over time when useful. Still enjoy it, but the aged up kids and other players needed more time.

On 10/10/2022 at 9:54 AM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Which means that there was no need for the prophecy scene at all.

Nah, it's fine, there's rarely just one reason why events happen in history

8 hours ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

For my own part, I despise their use of Allicent misunderstand the prophecy. It's terrible storytelling and thoroughly umsatisfying for that to be a motivation and the deciding factor in her going through with things.

I assume it will be a factor, but when it gets down to it, Rhaenyra's marriage to Daemon guaranteed that Otto and Alicent were not just going to go along with putting the fate of her sons in their hands.

3 hours ago, zajaz said:

If the roles in the Rhaenyra / Criston scene were reversed (Rhaenyra was an old maid, and Criston a young prince), wouldn't the scene seem kinda... problematic?

You mean like Cersei & Lancel?

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Was that the origin of the Bracken/Blackwood fued?

Nah, the origin of their feud is that the first Bracken and Blackwood were actually twins, Bracken came out first but Blackwood claimed the milk sources first and established an exorbitant tax for use.

I didn't mind Daemon's ridiculous scene too much. It is completely in line with his showing at the tourney and in the standoff with Otto. He has all the confidence and arrogance of a man boy prince with a dragon that knows he is worth more alive than dead, whether to pirates or to the Triarchy. Now, maybe they would have had no trouble killing him, but I think this ridiculous show of arrogance is in line with the character they established.

22 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Mind you, I think you could also just take it at face value because the only people insisting there has to be a change are the people who insist that there has to be a change.

At face value it shows Jaehaerys being descended from Aenys, but not necessarily from Alyssa.

4 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

If season 8 couldn't kill interest in the IP, then I doubt the HotD pilot will.

Not talking about killing interest, just wondering how much it will succeed in generating as people actually watch over the weeks.

Of course there's interest, the question is how many of those were convinced to come back next week.

I think we should be cautious not to take for granted that there was no way to save Aemma, as we have no way of knowing if they considered trying to save the life of the mother at the expense of the life of the child an option.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But they didn't in the books. The Velaryons are very proud of their storied lineage, to the point that Davos feels very uncomfortable in Lord Monford's presence.

More importantly, though, it seems HotD scrapped the whole concept of Valyrians being white albinos. In light of their silver-gold hair we would assume that the show Velaryons are as much 'native Valyrians' as the white-skinned Targaryens. They are not black because some ancient Velaryons intermarried with foreigners, they are black because some Valyrian houses simply are black.

And that's clearly at odds with George's vision of the Valyrians and their culture. They all look alike because their cultural tradition involved inbreeding and the breeding of 'beautiful people' (as continued by the Lyseni).

You are confusing ASOIAF and the HBO universe. The HBO universe never established that Valyrians or dragonriders are exclusively pale white people. It wasn't relevant in GOT. They didn't even bother to establish purple eyes. So no need to adhere to that notion here. It doesn't affect anything. It doesn't matter because the Velaryons weren't a dragonriding family in the first place. It also doesn't matter because even in TWOIAF it is made clear that Valyrian dragonriding families preferred incest over marrying with one another. So if they really wanted to go deeper into Valyria there's no HBO universe reason there couldn't be black Valyrians and black dragonriding families. Being white is something Targaryens share with most of Westeros, so no biggie creating Valyrians who actually do look different than Westerosi.

I have a feeling HOTD is going to be our best chance to see pre-GOT history depicted in any way.

Show is sounding kind of awesome.

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

That's what I'm worried about as well, since stretching out the source material almost never works out. If Peter Jackson couldn't make three good movies out of the Hobbit, I doubt HBO can make a whole series out of D&E that isn't subpar.

I don't understand this comparison. The stories of DnE take place during a span of fifty years that we have some idea about, multiple generations of interesting characters and places. You can do a lot with that even aside from the stories already completed. The Hobbit is one 300 page children's book.

A report that a Jon Snow series is in the works does not in any way, shape, or form market a Dance of the Dragons series. Step away from the computer for a bit. These are not rational responses to the report.

Jon spent almost the entire original series in the snow at, around, beyond the Wall, so what would be the point of this show?

It's important to remember that there isn't a single POV for any Dance of the Dragons characters. We don't know how they really thought of themselves or what they were really thinking about many things. We just have various sources. So the notion that anyone has these characters totally figured out is just nonsense. We won't know the routes HBO takes with these characters until we see it, but if they are well written and internally consistent it should work fine.

Black Valyrians probably isn't going to register as a problem for most viewers. If anything, they will be closer to the uniquely beautiful and different reputation Targaryens had, which GOT made no real attempt to do. The funny thing about GRRM considering making the Targs black is that if GOT had been made in 2022, making the Targs black would probably be the best way to adapt them.

If Laenor had no legitimate or illegitimate children running around, I'm more inclined to think he wasn't able to have children than that he refused to. It just makes no sense in this world for the heir to Driftmark and future king consort to flat out refuse to even try to do one of his most basic duties, no matter their sexual orientation. But if he is incapable, he will never produce an heir for any seat no matter how hard he tries, and Corlys will have no grandson through him on any throne. The interesting question would then be if the Velaryons knew and withheld that information until after the wedding night.

I'm actually interested to check the show out. A lot more room to maneuver, I think, even though they will likely have to make choices about which accounts of certain events were true.

I take it the release of the one book is an indication that we shouldn't expect any other books this year?

Many important characters and scenes were gutted and could have used the expansion afforded by a season. The weight of Dune as a season (or two) might have had a chance of equaling the weight of GOT seasons 1 and 3. As it is, even as someone very invested in the characters and story and is a big fan of Isaac and his casting, the death of Leto had almost no impact. Never mind characters like Yueh, Gurney, and Liet. It actually could have benefitted from an expansion of the story to include things that must have occurred but were not witnessed (like Duncan's time among the Fremen). I like it for what it was able to accomplish, but I have no question it does not live up to what it could be with a series.