Bael's Bastard

It's really not logical, but assumptions built on assumptions built on assumptions. No indication Rickard made it anywhere near Riverrun, on the contrary since Brandon was only on his way back to Riverrun when he heard about Lyanna.

A bunch of baseless speculation. We have no idea where Ned was when Lyanna was kidnapped, only where he was after his father was murdered quite a while later. For all we know Ned and the rest had joined Rickard's party on their way down from the North, and were only sent back to the Eyrie when Rickard, Jon, etc. were summoned by Aerys.

Yandel's primary source for the reign of Aerys II was clearly Pycelle, who was present through to the sack, so there's no need to wonder how Yandel learned of Viserys, whether or not it was widely known, or there was some major public ceremony. Maybe there was, maybe there wasn't. But Yandel knows what he knows, or thinks he knows, from Pycelle.

I agree, I think we must accept a few likely facts: 1. The 3 KG likely remained at the TOJ at the command of Rhaegar (the LC had been commanded there by Aerys, but IMO, remained at the command or persuasion of Rhaegar). 2. The 3 KG had already learned the info Ned questioned them about. 3. The LC of the KG was completely loyal to Aerys's kingship until his death. 4. All 3 KG fought to the death at the TOJ anyways.

Yup, the "elitist" who started reading long after RLJ had been solved, who found out about RLJ on the internet, not on their own, so refuses to accept it, and is obsessed with figuring out the "real" truth, which amounts to a bunch of terrible, baseless theories

Clearly he can smack some readers in the face with the right conclusion and they will still stretch for a wrong one

You're embarrassing yourself, stop while you're way way behind.

Nope, try again, and do better.

No, she isn't making an assumption. The only other references in ASOIAF to "bed of blood" and "bloody bed" are exclusive to the birthing bed. This is clearly the implication of GRRM's use of "bed of blood."

AGOT and AFFC confirmed that "bed of blood," "bloody bed," etc. refer to childbirth in ASOIAF. Thus, references to Lyanna's "bed of blood" clearly refer to her giving birth.

Lyanna died in a "bed of blood," or birthing bed, as confirmed by AFFC: The Prophet and AGOT: Daenerys VII. Not sure how long you're proposing Lyanna survived after giving birth, but I doubt it was more than a few weeks.

I don't get the impression Jon knows much of anything about his birth

Whether Lyanna died of excessive bleeding or fever as a result of the pregnancy, there is only so long after Jon's birth she's likely to have lived.

Not exactly. It was before Rhaegar left. It took Ned two weeks to get from Trident to KL at a fast pace, so presumably took Rhaegar that or more depending on his pace. Then we don't know how long he was by the Trident before the battle. Hours, days, more? But we know Jon was recently born when Ned "found" him, probably a month or more after the Sack of KL, depending on whether it was at the TOJ or Starfall. And GRRM tells us Dany was born closer to 8-9 months after Jon than a year.

The Fisherman's daughter story would place Jon's conception within the first two or so weeks of the war, which would presumably place Jon's birth well before Dany's conception. GRRM's statement indicates that Jon's birth could have occurred as much as a month if not more after Dany's conception, which seems to have occurred just before Rhaegar took Jonothor and Barristan and left for the Trident, two or more weeks before the battle. The time between the BotB and BotT appears to have been considerable. Not sure anything rules out the possibility that it could have been as much as nine months between the BotB and BotT. I highly doubt it took Ned 2-3 months to get from the Vale to Winterfell to Stoney Sept. The war had already started, Robert was on his own, and I doubt Ned waited at Winterfell very long for all his bannermen to join him before heading south. Whatever the case, Ned and Cat clearly know how much time passed after their wedding, and the idea that Jon was conceived after obviously isn't implausible, whether or not it's actually the truth.

Though I acknowledge that Cat actually says Ned called him "son," and I could totally see Ned calling Jon son, avoiding phrases like "my son," and in his mind walking a tight line.

@Frey family reunion Cat's POV tells us Ned called Jon his son for the whole North to see. So even though he used "my blood" in that particular, and IMO telling, conversation with her, I don't think it's safe to assume he never called or referred to Jon as his son, and just depended on everyone to assume it and craft a story for him.

Nope, try again.

We don't know whether Wylla came to Winterfell as Jon's wetnurse. Why would people in Winterfell assume Jon's wetnurse was his mother if that wetnurse was Wylla, but not assume Jon's wetnurse was his mother if that wetnurse was someone else? We know what people in Winterfell assumed, regardless of Jon's wetnurse, that Ashara Dayne was Jon's mother. Cersei repeats this rumor. Yet Robert and Edric both take for granted that Wylla was Jon's mother. King Robert Baratheon thinks Wylla is a commoner that mothered Jon. Lord Edric Dayne thinks that Ashara Dayne and Ned fell in love at Harrenhal, but that Wylla mothered Jon. Lady Catelyn Tully heard whispers that Ashara Dayne mothered Jon. Cersei speculates that some Dornish peasant, a whore, or Ashara Dayne mothered Jon.

Renly doesn't appear to know or suspect incest until Stannis' letter, and even then he doesn't really seem to believe it. He just didn't like or trust Cersei and the Lannisters, or what they would do with the control they had over Joffrey, and the throne.

I agree, @corbon. There is a checklist of things that occurred in 282 AC, and I don't see it all happening in under two or three months, on top of not knowing how early or late in the year these events began. - an unknown amount of time into 282 AC, Brandon turns 20 years old - an unknown amount of time later the wedding between Brandon, 20, and Catelyn is announced, and Brandon duels Littlefinger - an unknown amount of time later Brandon leaves Riverrun vowing to wed Catelyn when he returns (the app says he went to meet up with his father's wedding party coming down from the North) - an unknown amount of time later Brandon is on his way back to Riverrun, when he learns Rhaegar has allegedly abducted his sister, and rides off to the Red Keep with his companions - an unknown amount of time later Brandon arrives at the Red Keep with his companions, they are arrested, and their fathers are summoned to answer for their crimes - an unknown amount of time later Rickard and the other fathers arrive at the Red Keep to answer for their sons' crimes - an unknown amount of time later Rickard, Brandon, still 20, etc. were executed

Yeah, I don't get the impression that Renly knew about the twincest before Stannis' letter, and I'm not sure he believed it even then.

Sam swore by the old gods. If swearing by the "wrong" gods was enough to create a safety net to allow you out of the vow later, a lot more people would swear by other people's gods.

I don't know or want you to do anything. Just correcting a lie you posted.

I don't mean expecting to become LC. But he goes into the NW with the expectation that he would attain a place of honor, and expecting to be able to go ranging before he's earned anything. It doesn't make him a bad guy or anything, it's just something that he has grown out of with experience and knowledge.