Bael's Bastard

Nope, try again.

19 hours ago, alienarea said:

Obviously, though it is not stated anywhere, the wetnurse at Winterfell was not Wylla. If Ned had brought Wylla, people would remember her, and assume she is Jon's mother. That would lead to rumor's Ned had brought his concubine, and he would not gain the reputation he had. Plus, it would not go well with Cat.

We don't know whether Wylla came to Winterfell as Jon's wetnurse.

Why would people in Winterfell assume Jon's wetnurse was his mother if that wetnurse was Wylla, but not assume Jon's wetnurse was his mother if that wetnurse was someone else?

We know what people in Winterfell assumed, regardless of Jon's wetnurse, that Ashara Dayne was Jon's mother. Cersei repeats this rumor. Yet Robert and Edric both take for granted that Wylla was Jon's mother. 

King Robert Baratheon thinks Wylla is a commoner that mothered Jon.

Lord Edric Dayne thinks that Ashara Dayne and Ned fell in love at Harrenhal, but that Wylla mothered Jon.

Lady Catelyn Tully heard whispers that Ashara Dayne mothered Jon.

Cersei speculates that some Dornish peasant, a whore, or Ashara Dayne mothered Jon.

1 minute ago, Relon said:

Question: I know that in AGoT, Renly and Loras are attempting to get Robert to marry Margaery, but I can't seem find any clarification on if this was because they knew/suspected that the royal children were bastards or just an attempted power play. Does anyone know this or where this is answered?

Renly doesn't appear to know or suspect incest until Stannis' letter, and even then he doesn't really seem to believe it.

He just didn't like or trust Cersei and the Lannisters, or what they would do with the control they had over Joffrey, and the throne.

I agree, @corbon.

There is a checklist of things that occurred in 282 AC, and I don't see it all happening in under two or three months, on top of not knowing how early or late in the year these events began.

- an unknown amount of time into 282 AC, Brandon turns 20 years old

- an unknown amount of time later the wedding between Brandon, 20, and Catelyn is announced, and Brandon duels Littlefinger

- an unknown amount of time later Brandon leaves Riverrun vowing to wed Catelyn when he returns (the app says he went to meet up with his father's wedding party coming down from the North)

- an unknown amount of time later Brandon is on his way back to Riverrun, when he learns Rhaegar has allegedly abducted his sister, and rides off to the Red Keep with his companions

- an unknown amount of time later Brandon arrives at the Red Keep with his companions, they are arrested, and their fathers are summoned to answer for their crimes

- an unknown amount of time later Rickard and the other fathers arrive at the Red Keep to answer for their sons' crimes

- an unknown amount of time later Rickard, Brandon, still 20, etc. were executed

Yeah, I don't get the impression that Renly knew about the twincest before Stannis' letter, and I'm not sure he believed it even then.

Sam swore by the old gods. If swearing by the "wrong" gods was enough to create a safety net to allow you out of the vow later, a lot more people would swear by other people's gods.

2 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

The show is not the books. No matter how hard you want us to squint.

I don't know or want you to do anything. Just correcting a lie you posted.

6 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

What makes you think Jon went to the NW expecting to run the place?

I don't mean expecting to become LC. But he goes into the NW with the expectation that he would attain a place of honor, and expecting to be able to go ranging before he's earned anything. It doesn't make him a bad guy or anything, it's just something that he has grown out of with experience and knowledge.

GRRM explicitly said they correctly guessed the mother. As shitty as their adaptation was, it would be delusional to think they invented a different mother for Jon in the show.

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/

Jon doesn't know who his mother is, thinks his father is Ned, and swore an oath to the NW based on that reality.

The knowledge that his father isn't Ned, his mother is Lyanna Stark, his father is Rhaegar Targaryen, they were wed, would not create pointless new turmoil that is out of character for Jon.

If anything, it would be the greatest escalation yet of the same turmoil he has already been experiencing all story, and all his life.

He swore an oath to protect humans from the Others and the dead. He isn't suddenly going to put throwing his hat in the game of thrones above that, and he isn't suddenly going to throw the Starks away to be a Targ prince.

But that doesn't mean he won't experience any inner turmoil or external pressure when he learns of it, and if others learn of it.

He swore that oath before he knew who he was, but he swore it nevertheless, and now he knows far too much about what humans are up against to pursue anything else.

Amusingly, even as a noble bastard Jon begins the story relatively entitled. He rolled up to the NW expecting to run the place, probably not worlds different than Raymar Royce did. Even as a half noble bastard he was like that.

Yet that's not the Jon we know now, and not a Jon we are ever likely going to see again, whether or not he or anyone else ever learns he is a royal bastard or the legitimate product of a royal marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Again, why characters that have been dead seventeen years did what they did in 282 AC, and if/how that will affect characters that are alive in 300 AC and beyond, are two completely different discussions.

If it turns out that Jon is a legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, IMO it's not going to be anything Rhaegar intentionally plotted out like that ahead of time, and I doubt Jon will ever sit the Iron Throne because of it.

There might be some readers that assume Jon will be a recognized Targaryen king on the Iron Throne and work backwards from there, but they are not in this discussion, and nobody is making their arguments here except those using them as strawmen.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Hmm, baseless opinion with no support from the books.  Kind of like how Rhaegar, Elia, or Lyanna would be in any way in favor of a polygamous marriage?

@Frey family reunion

RLJ simply means that Jon is the biological son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

RLJ theories take many different shapes and forms.
Some RLJ theories hold that Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't wed.
Some hold that Rhaegar and Lyanna wed.
Some hold that Elia gave Rhaegar a "hall-pass" to wed and/or impregnate Lyanna.
Some hold that Rhaegar never asked for Elia's blessing.
Some hold that Elia never gave Rhaegar her blessing whether or not he asked.
Some hold that Rhaegar set out to wed and/or impregnate Lyanna.
Some hold that Rhaegar impulsively wed and/or impregnated Lyanna.
Some hold that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard.
Some hold that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's legitimate child.
Some hold that Jon will never sit a throne.
Some hold that Jon will sit the Iron Throne.
Some hold that Jon will never be learned by Westeros to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard/legitimate child.
Some hold that Jon will be learned by Westeros to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard/legitimate child.

The common denominator between them all is that Jon is the biological son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

But regardless, if you are so invested in Jon being the "legitimate" son of Rhaegar, I understand the need to try and concoct a polygamous relationship.  After all the alternative is the one that the HBO abomination gave us, which was Rhaegar annulling his marriage to Elia (preposterous) and naming his child with Lyanna Aegon Targaryen, basically disinheriting his first born son who he named the prince that was promised (at least in the books).  So at the very least you seem to realize how fundamentally flawed the show's version was in their attempt to make Jon a "legitimate" Targaryen.

But for those of you believing that the HBO show has somehow confirmed that Jon is the "legitimate" son of Rhaegar Targaryen let me suggest an alternative.  That D & D are talentless hacks.  

And as an example of their "hackery", keep in mind that the show decided that the books contained too many characters.  One of the characters left on the chopping room floor, was Young Griff, aka Aegon Targaryen,  who was purported to be the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen.  The noble lad who Varys champions as the person best suited to take the Iron Throne.  

Sound familiar?  It should, because that was the character that Kit Harrington played in addition to playing Jon Snow.  The show merely merged Jon Snow with Young Griff.  Which is why it appeared that Kit was teleporting back and forth from the North to the South.  He was in essence playing two characters at the same time.  

Which is why we get the cringey reveal of Jon Snow as Aegon Targaryen through Gilley's reading of a septon's journal.  And the even cringier confirmation through Bran TV.  

So perhaps Dany needs someone purporting to have a more legitimate claim to the Iron Throne to her own to further her own internal conflict.  Fortunately for the reader we don't need Jon Snow to play that role because we have Young Griff.  Hence, there is no reason for us to try and contort the plot and the backstory to try and shoe horn Jon into the role of a legitimate claimant.

Theories that Rhaegar and Lyanna wed and that Jon is their legitimate son were based on/contemporary with the releases of AGOT and ACOK, decades before the show, or its adaptation of Jon's parentage, so not sure what hot garbage you are going on about.

Every regular here has already torn your long winded fan fictions to shreds so many times, nobody has an obligation to keep doing it over and over again. No hard feelings, but it's clear you have written your own story in your head that nobody here paid or asked for. You have offered literally no proof for any of your baseless assertions about polygamy, and that's because there is none. Neither Jaehaerys nor the Faith ever accepted or imposed a ban on Targs wedding more than one wife. It wasn't something they did frequently anyway, but definitely something there's no evidence they agreed to be banned from. I am not interested in wasting time on verbose arguments based entirely baseless opinion with no support from the books.

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

You guys crack me up.

Point? You think a 12-13 year old girl isn't capable of being a hypocrite, or changing her mind over time or based on her changing reality or other factors, or having completely different feelings or opinions about two different men?

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Guys, for the hundredth time:

For us to have good reason to believe polygamy was a thing in the sense that Prince Rhaegar - PRINCE RHAEGAR, and not KING RHAEGAR WHO NEVER WAS! - could get away with we would need at least another precedent for polygamy after Maegor.

And that should be a very specific case - a case where polygamy was not practiced by a dragonriding usurper fighting the Faith and Westeros at large about the issue - as Maegor was and did - but the case of a Targaryen prince, like Rhaegar, who, dragonless, got permission of his royal father or brother, the Faith, the lords, and the Realm at large. A Targaryen prince who practiced polygamy in peace, not causing a scandal in the process of it, etc.

If such a thing had happened - and I wanted to see something like that happening - we could seriously consider that Rhaegar may have had a chance to get through with his polygamy.

But we don't have something like that, do we?

In fact, even if one of Jaehaerys I's princely sons and grandsons had had multiple wives - or some other princes down the line - the case of Rhaegar would still be different because he had a mad father with whom he was at odds even prior to the polygamy thing. The man was considering to disinherit him as a traitor. We do know that princes taking monogamous spouses without permission of the king (Daemon and Laena, for instance) could have major repercussions and lead to exile, meaning the idea that Rhaegar could get away with polygamy against his father's wishes even if there were more recent and well-established precedents for this is not convincing.

For something like that a prince would need the unconditional support of his king.

And, please, guys, stop painting Aegon the Conqueror as this proud polygamist. He loved Rhaenys, he just married Visenya as well because the family tradition insisted that he had to marry the elder sister. His polygamy is a very special one, an incestuous, if you will. He wanted to give both his sisters their due, the one he actually loved and the one he had to marry (possibly also because he didn't want any of the big dragons to end with another family). But unlike Maegor, Aegon never wanted to create a harem of wives. He only married his sisters, not everybody and their grandmother. Which is why, one assumes, he refused the addition of other wives, before, during, and after the Conquest, even after Queen Rhaenys had died and Visenya was beyond her childbearing years.

If he was a determined polygamist he wouldn't have lived 27 years in a monogamous (and quite loveless) marriage with Visenya.

Thus we can make a case that even Aegon the Conqueror was no fan of polygamy - which, one assumes, would also be the reason why he never urged Maegor to take another wife after Ceryse didn't give birth to any children during the first twelve years of their marriage. If polygamy was a thing Aegon the Conqueror liked then one has to answer the question why he didn't take more wives and because neither of his sons dared take a second wife while the Conqueror was still alive. Maegor only thought he could pull shit like that with Aenys in charge, not Aegon I.

And one also should see Maegor's second wife as his attempt to dissolve his first marriage and get a new and only wife in Alys. He cut ties with Ceryse, declared her barren, and abandoned her in favor of Alys. The reason why he couldn't get an annulment would be that she was a Hightower and the niece of the High Septon. But Maegor didn't properly wed Alys Harroway in a sept, but in a savage, overcome Valyrian rite. There is no indication this marriage was accepted by the king, his court, the Faith, or the Realm at large. Maegor's 'polygamous phase', his harem, if you will, only started when he took on Tyanna as a third wife in 42 AC, and continued with the black brides further down the road. But that was when he was a king, no longer a prince.

As for the Daemon thing:

That is in there to sort of explain away the inconsistency in the Osgrey story - that Daenerys loved Daemon, and that they wanted to marry each other, but Daeron II married her to the Prince of Dorne anyway. George didn't get the chronology straight in TSS, not realizing that Daemon would already have been married to the mother of his children when Daenerys' match with Maron Martell was made. Or at least that's how things turned out when Daemon's birth year was settled (I don't know if the story preceded the dates or vice versa).

But this whole thing is just a rumor, not a fact. And a bad rumor I might add because it actually states that a mere bastard who wasn't legitimized yet has to be seen as eligible to take a royal princess as a second wife (it would even have been outrageous to make Daenerys the first and only wife of a bastard!). That is pretty much insane and clashes completely with Aegon IV's own cowardice in the polygamy department ... as well as his general cowardice shown by not directly attacking the Dragonknight but using a patsy, not daring to anger the Prince of Dorne in later life by disinheriting Daeron, not insisting on another Dornish War after the failure with the wooden dragons, etc. When push came to shove the man backed down/took the easier route. He even only dared to legitimize his bastards on his deathbed ... and even then he didn't dare to disinherit Daeron in favor of Daemon (assuming that's what he was entertaining at any point).

And, no, we don't have any indication that the Doctrine of Exceptionalism has been used to justify polygamy nor that it was designed to do this - because its author, Jaehaerys I, explicitly forbid his daughter Princess Saera to practice polygamy.

It makes no sense to pretend the man who forbid his daughter to practice polygamy and forced the Faith to teach that it was okay for the Targaryens to marry their sisters had nothing against polygamy in general.

This isn't a conclusive case, but it sure as hell points the unbiased reader in a certain direction.

It is disingenious of you to make this statement because you should know the text, especially since I quoted it in the earlier iteration of this thread in length. I'm doing it again, for the benefit of whoever might read this:

You go directly against the text here in a number of instances, most notably in your claim that only one High Septon had had an issue with Aegon's marriages - all of the High Septons during Aegon's reign did, they just didn't express them aggressively - and their stance was supported by the view of the Faith at large. You also go directly against the text in stating that the Faith Militant Uprising started 'in direct response to the Aegon-Rhaena marriage' when in fact people in-universe who know better conclude that the latter was seen as 'further outrage', not the original cause of the matter. And Jaehaerys I is correct there - the open conflict with the Faith started with Maegor's second marriage, not the Aegon-Rhaena wedding.

That is a straw man on your part. Nobody said that the lords and king fiercely opposed polygamy of their conqueror, Aegon I. I specifically said that Aegon is a special case in the sense that he conquered Westeros as polygamist and people had no choice but to politely ignore that outrage. And ambitious people went with the idea 'if he has two wives, why cannot my daughter/sister be the third of fourth'.

But the issue here is that Aegon (and Maegor later, too) were kings, not princes. Princes cannot do that shit, nor do they inspire the desire of ambitious men to throw more wives at them because they are not kings. They don't have the same power. Even Balerion couldn't protect Maegor from his exile, could he? And if King Aenys hadn't been the weakling that he was Maegor and Visenya and Alys and her father would have died for the thing they pulled.

Instead, the idea is that after Maegor nobody inside or outside House Targaryen would see polygamy as a viable option for a prince - and even a king, after the dragons were gone.

And that's implicitly confirmed by the fact that no Targaryen after Saera ever suggested polygamy as an option, despite the fact that it would resolved dozens of problems the Targaryens faced from Jaehaerys I to Aerys II.

If you want to make a case that polygamy was seen as acceptable/viable by the Targaryens themselves you have to explain why nobody wanted to resolve such problems by polygamy - why it didn't even come up as a theoretical option.

That seems to make no sense even in your own argument. Couldn't Tywin easily enough have made Cersei Rhaegar's third wife in this scenario, if the Lya match had been accepted? After all, you yourself point out that the lords and kings didn't see any problems throwing wives at Aegon I. Why shouldn't Tywin insist Rhaegar make Cersei his third wife?

The actual problem here, as I pointed out before, is why the hell Tywin didn't make Cersei Rhaegar's second wife while he was already married to Elia but before he ran away. And why he didn't set up Cersei to become Aerys II's second wife - she looks like Joanna, so this could have worked better than a Rhaegar match.

A bunch of long winded bullshit you've already spewed over and over, which has no more support from the books this time than it did every other time. Maybe spend less time creating fan fiction and more time actually reading the books.

What Rhaegar believed he could do is the only thing that matters when discussing what actions he took and how he justified to himself taking them. Rhaegar grew up in a world steeped in two and a half centuries of Targaryen exceptionalism, and no hint that the Faith or Jaehaerys excluded polygamy from this exceptionalism. He had zero reason to think he as a Targ couldn't wed another wife for legal or religious reasons.

It's disingenuous to claim polygamy was an issue fiercely contested by the Faith when only one single High Septon in the history of Westeros actually made an issue of it, and in truth, that crusade was launched directly in response to Rhaena/Aegon incest.

It's disingenuous to claim polygamy was an issue fiercely contested by the the Lords and Kings when the pious Lord Hightower, Storm King, and Queen of the Vale all tried to arrange a third wife for Aegon before the Conquest, and lords and knights tried to arrange another second wife for Aegon after Rhaenys died a decade into Targaryen rule.

And a key part of the Jorah and Dany discussion about multiple husbands that you are conveniently ignoring is the meaning of "the dragon has three heads."

When Daenerys asks Jorah if he knows what it means, he says the Targaryen sigil is a three headed dragon. When she says duh, but there are no three headed dragons, he reminds her that Aegon and his sisters were the three headed dragon, they in fact invented the sigil. This causes Dany to recall Visenya and Rhaenys, and that she is descended from Aegon and Rhaenys through their son Aenys and grandson Jaehaerys.

You dismiss it as Jorah just trying to get in Dany's pants, but whatever his motivations, the content of the discussion is true and sound. Whether this is a correct interpretation of any prophecy or not, it is a correct recollection of the founders of her house,  and her direct line in particular. Neither Dany nor Jorah speak of it as if it is a religious or legal transgression for a Targaryen.

It also gives Tywin perhaps his greatest incentive to finally turn on Rhaegar once and for all. After knowing Rhaegar since he was three or four, knowing him for twenty years as Hand, voicing confidence in the King he would be, and spending nearly a decade plotting to wed his daughter to Rhaegar even after he already wed Elia, Rhaegar runs off and takes a second wife and it's still not Cersei? The Lyanna thing was probably gonna piss Tywin off either way, but IMO Rhaegar wedding Lyanna would enrage Tywin above all else. 

Just shows you all aren't arguing in good faith, as you ignore precedent and relevant info for polygamy throughout the books, while completely fabricating a ban on Targ polygamy that literally doesn't exist or get hinted at whatsoever in the books.

In the case of Daemon, this info was presumably written down by a maester closer to Daemon's own time, is passed along by a maester that lived through Summerhall and Robert's Rebellion, and repeated by a contemporary maester to Tommen, all over the last century or so.

As in the case of Maegor, polygamy for Daemon would have just been a means to wed the wife he wanted while already/still married to a first wife. Not everyone wants to just be wed to multiple wives. Maegor was pretty much done with his first wife but couldn't get rid of her. Daemon's desired Daenerys. They didn't just have a polygamy fetish.

Is it plausible Rhaegar thought he could create a legally and religiously binding second marriage, even if he expected massive consequences that he would have to somehow deal with? Absolutely.

We know polygamy was perfectly legal and acceptable for Targs to Westerosi. Even the single case that a single High Septon objected to, Maegor's first, could not be overturned by Faith or king. Neither secular nor religious law ever prohibited or criminalized polygamy for Targs. Period.

Some posters here imagine all sorts of overcomplicated scenarios to avoid just how simple it would be for Rhaegar to wed Lyanna while he was still married to Elia. It could be as simple as:

1. Rhaegar wanted or felt obligated to wed Lyanna for any reason.

Rhaegar need not have set out in early 282 to wed Lyanna or become a polygamist or have new babies. It's possible, but I don't subscribe to theories that Rhaegar set out to find Lyanna for love or prophecy.

I prefer the idea that Rhaegar set out to get out/hide Lyanna from danger he knew was coming at the hands of Aerys/his counsel/his soldiers, because he felt responsible for linking Lyanna and her family to him and his treasonous plots, which Aerys's lickspittles were filling his ears with.

If they spontaneously hooked up at some point after the alleged abduction and she got pregnant, he might have felt obligated because of what would become of Lyanna as an unwed noble woman with a bastard, or perhaps just couldn't stand the idea of fathering a bastard, or any number of reasons.

Rather than something Rhaegar set out ahead of time to do to fulfill prophecy, or satisfy his love, or copy Aenar, Aegon, or Maegor, it could be an extreme solution they pulled out of their asses in an extreme situation, perhaps even after her father and brother were slaughtered by his father, and the entire northern presence south of the Trident was wiped out around them.

Either or both of them could have expressed to the other how nobody had done polygamy in 250 years and had dragons, and how the Martells, Baratheons, and Starks would rage, but still somehow convinced themselves/each other it was the best option. At that point it's just a matter of finding/getting an officiant or ceremony to do it.

2. Rhaegar knew or found an officiant or ceremony to wed him and Lyanna.

There is no shortage of examples of nobles, especially Targaryens, finding officiants to wed them when their families or others would prevent them. It would be absurd to argue Rhaegar couldn't find someone to do it, whether or not they were resistant.

All they needed was the want to wed (for whatever reasons), and the ability to find someone or something to wed them. It's that simple.

3 hours ago, lehutin said:

It's easily disproved, yet the "Ned hadn't thought of Rhaegar in years" misquote is just so damn persistent. 

I agree, I come across it too often, and it clearly means something much different than how it is interpreted by those who take it and run with it without doing bare minimum research.

3 hours ago, lehutin said:

Thanks for starting v. 167 @Ygrain. May I suggest that we add something like this to the FAQ?

I find it to be a common talking point against R+L=J that annoyingly persists because it's easily shown to be wrong, yet some loud but misinformed fan channels keep pushing it.

Ned thinks and/or talks about Rhaegar in his 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 12th, and 15th chapters, so just about every single one of his 15 chapters.

33 minutes ago, Neddy's Girl said:

Thanks.  I do somewhat agree with that, but I have seen quite a few people make the argument that it was his intention due to his belief in prophecy, etc.  I just wondered why it's thought, by some, that someone obsessed with prophecy would be unspecific in his naming scheme.

One could argue that Rhaegar was reversing the order because Rhaenys, not Visenya, was his ancestor.

We won't really know until/unless we find out what Rhaegar intended to name a third child.

Personally, I'm not sold Rhaegar was going for naming his children after all three or the Targaryen Conquerors.

Maybe he intended to have a third child named Aenys? Or Orys? 

Then again, we don't know if prophecy associates particular names or name components to the PTWP and/or the three heads of the dragon.

The only way I can see the Weirwoods "seeing the future" is in a scenario where what we are reading in ASOIAF is a past that has already occurred, which the Weirwoods have already witnessed at some point during their lives. 

Bran's vision and Jojen's greendreams, however, seem to be another matter.