Bael's Bastard

Families of the hostages continue to oppose letting aid into Gaza while their families remain hostage, not to mention having no access to the Red Cross or any aid org.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/we-feel-choked-by-the-sadness-hostages-loved-ones-mark-30-days-with-knesset-rally/

The point is that we don't know, because the only source is a literal terrorist group that includes its members in the death toll and attributes all deaths to Israel. There is no telling how much it is inflating or how much it and other terror groups are actually responsible for. But everything gets attributed to Israel, even when it or other terror groups are found to be responsible, and antizionists just uncritically regurgitate it. If the IDF has dropped as many/more bombs than people killed, they are obviously capable of bombing targets without always killing, especially taking into account that a bomb or even rocket can kill many/hundreds of people at a time. Again, there is no question Israeli strikes have killed civilians, probably many, but there is no objective source for how many civilian deaths there have actually been or how many of those Israel has actually been responsible for. The idea that Hamas' numbers are generally accurate and that groups that have no independence in Gaza and exclusively get their information from Hamas prove that those numbers are accurate is a joke.

32 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I've said this before, but given a document over a hundred pages long listing the name, sex, age and identification number of thousands of dead was published, in order to 'fake' this would require thousands of fake identities to be created. While that's not impossible, I don't consider it likely. Doctors in Gaza have more pressing tasks.

It took Israel nearly a month to ID 1300 people, but keep telling yourself that the propaganda  Hamas' pulled out of its ass hours after being called out is accurate.

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Okay how off do you think they are and what measures would validate or repudiate it? 

Do you think they’re off by 1000? 2000? 

A single PIJ rocket killed about 5% of the people they are claiming have been killed. Who knows how many the hundreds of other rockets that have fallen in Gaza have killed. Who knows how many Hamas and PIJ have killed up close and personally. Who knows how many were Hamas, PIJ, or other terrorists. Maybe at some point investigation will be able to distinguish more, but in the middle of war with Hamas the only source, the numbers being claimed are more propaganda than reliable.

The only leaders Palestinians show any interest in in polls are people with massive amounts of blood on their hands like Barghouti and Haniyeh. They dislike Abbas, but their preferences are all terrorists or "I don't know." Even if Israel were to release Barghouti with the understanding he would negotiate a two state solution, which seems highly unlikely on both counts, would they continue to support Barghouti or just consider him a pawn? This is why many Israelis see no partner in peace. Israel has negotiated with Arafat and Abbas to no avail, and Palestinians over the last 20 years have preferred leaders who prefer murdering Jews to negotiating a final deal.

44 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I am drinking the tea of cynicism when I say this, but could it possibly be that Southern Gaza will be attacked next to remove the terrorists there, and civilians will be told to move to the Sinai Peninsula, thereby achieving the proposals in the leaked plan, and leaving Gaza to be annexed after the Palestinians have been cleared out?

Israelis do not want Gaza. There is no support for annexing Gaza.

The WB is more complicated. Israel's position in most 2SS negotiations was that it would annex the "consensus blocs" near Jerusalem (where about 70% of Jews in the WB live) and make proportionate swaps from inside Israel, while abandoning the settlements and outposts deeper in the WB.

A not small minority wants to annex the deeper settlements and outposts, but there isn't popular support. In the 2014 negotiations under Kerry, even Netanyahu supported Jews in these settlements remaining in a Palestinian state.

No question Israeli strikes and operations have killed many civilians. Of course, we'll never know how many because Hamas isn't a reliable source for total number killed, or for how many of the killed were Hamas fighters, or for how many civilians were killed by errant Hamas and PIJ rockets, or for how many civilians were killed intentionally by Hamas or PIJ.

Before the time of the al-Ahli bombing which was claimed to kill 500 and has since been pinned firmly on a PIJ rocket, Hamas claimed 2,778 people had been killed. Thus, a single PIJ rocket that caused the al-Ahli bombing alone accounted for 15% of claimed Gazan deaths at that time. As of that same date, the IDF claimed at least 450 of the rockets fired by Hamas and PIJ had landed on Gaza. I appreciate that many are skeptical of IDF claims or numbers. But some number of rockets in this as in previous conflicts have fallen in Gaza.

Again, there is no question that Israeli attacks have killed many Palestinians. But we'll never know for sure how many, because there is no objective source and there is more than enough reason to be skeptical of the total numbers and the numbers of civilian men, women, and children that are uncritically being laid on the IDF based on the word of Hamas. Of course, I don't expect the antizionists in this thread to be skeptical of Hamas' claims, they made up their minds four weeks ago and have been parroting them uncritically ever since.

4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Who hopefully democrats stop trying to appeal to. 
 

And as to worse it depends on what we’re talking about and the American tide probably will shift(rightly) against Israel.

It's absurd to suggest democrats try to appeal to evangelicals. Many people on this issue don't seem to understand or like to ignore that support for Israel by US Jews (who are overwhelmingly Democratic, Zionist, care about Jews in the US and Israel, and support a Palestinian state) and "support" for Israel by Evangelicals (who are overwhelmingly Republican, End Timesey, don't actually give a shit about Jews in the US or Israel, and oppose a Palestinian state) are for entirely different reasons. But antizionists like to conflate these polar opposite positions.

Depicting Jews as colonizers, as has been done through these threads, is absolutely a denial of their indigeneity and an attempt to falsely depict Palestinians are "more indigenous."

Posting "we're all really African" bullshit as some kind of own against the indigeneity of Jews to Israel/Palestine is one hell of an imperialist colonizer argument, especially coming from imperialist Christian and Muslim cultures that were responsible for making Jews an oppressed minority in their indigenous homeland.

4 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

If you want to be taken seriously don't spew colonist claptrap in front of an indigenous man and expect him not to comment on it. But then, since you're response is to hide behind accusation of antisemitism rather than defend the point it's clear you don't want to be taken seriously.

Jews are no less indigenous to Israel/Palestine than you are to your lands. Suggesting so IS antisemitic.

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wait. I thought we weren't supposed to look too far back in time when debating this? Colour me very confused.

No matter how far back in time you look Jews are indigenous to the land and any attempt to portray them as foreign or colonizers betrays ignorant or malicious denial of that fact. Israel was founded on Jews accepting an Arab Palestinian state in the heart of their indigenous homeland. But the Arab Palestinian and Arab League attempt to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing against the Jews of Palestine and their failure, as well as WB Palestinians requesting Jordan annex and rule Arab Palestine forever changed the intended partition.

10 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

If you don't want to be compared to colonists stop using their justifications and methods then.

If you expect to be taken seriously don't suggest Jews are colonizers in their own indigenous homeland.

52 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Ah the old colonist standby "they're not using the land *right*." Never gets old does it.

It's rich to portray Jews as colonists and Arabs as indigenous in Israel/Palestine.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

That doesn't sound like a very fair or proportionate plan to me...

60% of the Jewish portion was the Negev Desert, which was mostly uninhabited and envisioned to absorb Jewish refugees.

All polls show the far right parties winning 9-10 seats, 4-5 less than they won last year. And those voters are not shown shifting to Likud, but to Gantz. The war and the judicial overhaul have not shifted Israelis to the right but to the center in terms of ideology and religion v democracy.

Those fuckers Ben Gvir and Smotrich will never step foot in an Israeli gov again, thankfully. Unfortunately they will do all they can to set the WB on fire until this gov falls. Hamas definitely prolonged this gov.

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think it would actually undermine Hamas.

If you're referring to letting fuel in, that's frankly delusional and living in a fantasy world that Israelis do not have the luxury of living in. In reality, Hamas will steal it, aid orgs will continue to blame Israel for for their lack, and the fuel will sustain the rocket attacks on Israelis.

Personally, I think food, water, and medicine should be let in. As long as it is inspected (Hamas smuggles parts in such materials), let them pour as much in as possible in the hopes that at least some of it will get to Gazans. As long as no smuggled materials are making it in, it can't harm anyone. The issue for many Israelis is there is no confirmation or hint the hostages are being cared for. Fuel is another matter, because it is essential to Hamas' fighting capabilities and nobody in Gaza has any power or means to prevent Hamas from taking it and using it to launch attacks. There is no way to withhold it from Hamas without also withholding it from hospitals, etc.

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It is also a choice Israel made to not allow essential supplies in to start with. This is undeniable. Hamas may withhold supplies from civilians, but that does not change the fact that Israel made the initial decision to cut off supplies from getting in. Israel contributed to the lack.

By all accounts Hamas has months of food, water, fuel, and medicine that they have stolen and hoarded that entered Gaza as aid for Gazans. That is undeniable and has nothing to do with Israel.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Continued refusal for any sort of humanitarian pause(s) will, I think, really start to strain relations between Israel and everyone else. I understand why they might not want to make concessions without hostages released, but the conditions they have created currently are making an environment where the hostages have an increased risk of death, due to bombing and lack of essentials. Plus, what if someone gets desperate and threatens to kill the hostages unless supplies are let through? 

If some sort of aid doesn't get through soon, the number of dead will increase significantly.

The hostages are with Hamas, where all the essentials are being hoarded from Gazans. Just as with Gazans, if hostages are not getting essentials it is by choice of Hamas, not a lack.

1 hour ago, Altherion said:

The Israelis have to get something for the temporary ceasefire to save face. As it stands, military, it only benefits Hamas and politically it would look like when the Americans say "Jump!", the Israelis say "How high?"

They will do it if Biden really pushes, but it would go much easier if they could have something in return (maybe not all the hostages, but some of them).

Hostage families were blocking roads and demanding no ceasefire without releasing the hostages.

18 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Idk if you're reading what you're writing then...

You said Israel needs to make peace with Hamas. Pretty weird to say a country should make peace with a group who openly says they want to destroy them.

You explained why a terrorist group felt it needed to slaughter and kidnap innocent civilians. Pretty weird.

You've been openly using their talking points. Pretty weird. 

And that's just in the last few hours. 

I don't know about you, but I am and come from a family that pushed for a Palestinian state during a decade where family and friends were being blown to pieces on buses and in restaurants believing that Arafat would ultimately make peace. The Jews in this thread despise Netanyahu, reject the settlements amd violent Hilltop Youth, and push for a Palestinian state, only to be smeared as hawks who support apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and genocide by people comparing Israel to the fucking Nazis. We and our families and friends have paid the price to support two states and continue to do so believing it is the only answer. More than can be said for people parroting Hamas and engaging in Holocaust inversion.

23 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

What? No. How is the end of Israel and the displacement of its citizens "peace"? I don't even understand how anyone would think this. Any peace of course would recognize Israel. Anything else is a fantasy, especially given the geological realities.

Israel has treaties with countries that have killed far more Jews than Hamas. There is no reason it could not make peace with a Palestinian government, even with someone like Abbas, whose Holocaust revisionism/denial continues to this day. But that government could never be Hamas so long as it is relentlessly dedicated to genocide of Jews and rejection of a Jewish state in any part of the lands it claims, which it has never ceased to be. As much of a selfish piece of shit as Netanyahu is, all accounts indicate he agreed that negotiations would be based on 67 borders with mutually agreed swaps (something he had opposed for decades) before delays in releasing Palestinians with life sentences for planning and committing terror attacks led to Abbas forming a unity government with Hamas in 2014.

14 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

What about the holocaust survivor's comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, are they engaging antisemitic Holocaust inversion?

Absolutely, and tokenizing a fringe of Holocaust survivors to justify comparing Jews to Nazis is fucking despicable.