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Bael's Bastard

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Everything posted by Bael's Bastard

  1. I think part of the issue isn't just that people aren't getting what they want, it's that the idea of any more Palestinians having to relocate is obviously loaded (even though any plan will also require relocating hundreds of thousands of Jews, which doesn't bother most non-Jews). It would also require trading some part of current Israel, which is also loaded. Do you trade parts where Israeli Jews live (loaded), where Israeli Arabs live like the Galilee as Lieberman has proposed (loaded), or parts where nobody lives and aren't appealing to Palestinians? This and the Palestinian demand of a "right of return" into Israel (rather than into a Palestinian state) are major hurdles to an agreement.
  2. There's no way Israeli and Palestinian states will not have to cooperate in some such way or another. As we have seen, any suggestion of even temporarily moving Gazans to avoid striking them while targeting Hamas is accuses of ethnic cleansing and genocide (though note no such language is used when speaking of the inevitable removal of Jews from much of the WB, including from communities rebuilt after Jordan ethnically cleansed them in 48-49). Not finding a way to connect Gaza and the WB will likely be unacceptable to most, especially Palestinians.
  3. The original partition before the 47-49 realities on the ground reshaped everything had two points that were much closer together where both states would require crossings. More recent negotiations also planned for corridors between Gaza and the WB through Israel. Not sure whether that would still be viable unless the PA gets a secure hold on Gaza.
  4. The determination that one state was not viable was pretty well established before the partition plan, and not merely the determination of Israelis (the Palestinian Jews who founded Israel had every reason to believe one state would/could not make any attempt to protect Jews). Furthermore, the "one-state solutions" in Egypt, Libya, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq saw 2,000-2,500 Jewish exile communities completely ethnically cleansed.
  5. No, it is about ceasing denial of Jewish origins and place in the land. Judea and Samaria are the heartland of Jewish history, but most Israelis are willing to part with most of that for peace with a real partner (which Barak and Olmert found out Arafat and Abbas were not, unless something has changed with Abbas since then).
  6. Palestinians should have a right to return to a Palestinian state based in the WB and Gaza with mutually agreed swaps (obviously not gonna happen with the current govs). However unjust it might seem, they should not have a right to return within Israel, anymore than Jews should have a right to return within the WB (despite our ancient history there, and the many thousands who were ethnically cleansed by Jordan and Iraq in modern times). That said, a Palestinian state should be able to accept some Jewish citizens just as Israel has nearly 2 million Arab Palestinian Israeli citizens.
  7. It's interesting that some people seem to think indigenous peoples can lose their indigeneity to the imperialists and colonizers who reduced them to an oppressed minority in their own land through killing, slavery, exile, and forced/compelled conversion if enough time passes, at least if that indigenous people is Jews.
  8. Furthermore, Jews sold into slavery/exiled to Europe are no less indigenous to Israel than those sold into slavery/exiled to MENA lands. They did not leave by choice, they did not allow imperialist colonizers from west and east to reduce them to an oppressed minority in their own land by choice.
  9. Israel is no more or less a "European colony" than all the Arab and Muslim states that were proposed/established from the dismantling of the Ottoman Empire, including Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, and an Arab Palestine. Such propaganda enabled the Arab world to get away with committing a total ethnic cleansing of the ancient Jewish exile communities and attempting to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing against the re-established Jewish state with impunity.
  10. It is absurd to suggest Israel would deliberately target a hospital, as in an order came down to strike a hospital. Although many think Israel isn't held responsible for anything, Israelis don't fight or send their kids to fight for an army that intentionally targets hospitals. If it turns out to be an unintentional or careless Israeli strike, it will still be worthy of condemnation. No need for the blood libel.
  11. The only thing I've seen about that was claimed by the Iranian FM, but the statement was less along the lines of a trade of a cease in bombing for hostages than saying that they could not release hostages without a cease in bombing. I'm not aware of any such statement by Hamas about being ready to release hostages for a cease in bombing, and Hamas has already said they would trade hostages for all Palestinian prisoners. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/iran-claims-hamas-willing-to-release-hostages-if-israel-ends-airstrikes-on-gaza/
  12. The Holocaust-denying leader of Hamas' "moderate" opposition. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/abbas-fumed-after-hamas-condemnation-was-added-to-pa-readout-without-his-knowledge/
  13. As a Zionist Jew who appreciates Biden's support following the Hamas attack, I don't think it is necessary for him to visit Israel. Unless he intends to attempt to get Israel and its neighbors on the same page in regard to a plan for Gaza.
  14. Antisemitism is so baked into European and MENA cultures that many don't even realize when they are engaging in it. It's why less than 1.5 million Jews remain in Europe and MENA combined with the exception of Israel.
  15. Israel is a secular country (despite the best efforts of Netanyahu's current allies) re-established by irreligious socialists. Hamas may want to genocide the Jews for their God, but it is disingenuous to portray this as a conflict between two religious beliefs. Jews are an ancient ethnic and religious group, but their indigeneity to the land is no more or pess dependant on religion than the indigeneity of America's indigenous. Furthermore, far more Jews are tied to Israel than are tied to Jewish religion, let alone orthodox interpretations of it. Zionist Jews, which a majority of Jews in the US and the world are, are not evangelicals. False equivalency.
  16. At least 1500 dead Hamas fighters have been counted in Israel. The number of dead in Gaza almost certainly includes significant number of Hamas fighters (it has in every previous conflict), though sadly many perhaps most of the dead are civilians.
  17. Your Hamas apologetics this entire time have been absolutely disgusting. Hamas' "idea" is literal genocide of the Jews. They do not care about Palestinian freedom. They are devoted to murder and genocide of Jews. Full fucking stop. Some of us have family or friends who were murdered or are held hostage, and know from the history of Hamas better than to hope that they will ever make it out alive. Shalit was a solitary example.
  18. My understanding is those hostages were rescued on the day of the attack from areas of Israel that Hamas had held. They held significant parts of Israel surrounding Gaza for a time. The number of those believed to be held in Gaza has only increased. At one point it was estimated at 100, then 130, now the families of around 200 have been notified by the IDF. I'm guessing that might not include non-Israelis. I am not sure how many made it to Gaza alive in the first place let alone are still alive now, but hope for those still alive will be costly if it is at all possible. Shalit is the only one to ever be released released alive, and it was for more than 1000 prisoners, about a quarter of whom had life sentences for killing or planning attacks on Israelis.
  19. Israelis have been protesting for nearly a year, but the Hamas mass murder, hostage taking, and continued rocket attacks have halted them.
  20. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-15/ty-article-magazine/confirming-the-worst-hamas-atrocities-where-israel-identifies-the-dead/0000018b-3313-dff1-a5eb-ffffee6f0000
  21. It's not just "Hamas bad," it's Hamas is and has been in control of Gaza for nearly two decades with no sign that will change any time soon, which highlights how unrealistic it is for people to expect Israel to somehow have different policies on Hamas and Gaza.
  22. There is no way to even make a dent in Hamas without an assault on Gaza that would make everything up to now seem tame, not to mention likely complete reoccupation of Gaza. So the current options are basically to just cease any further action and let Hamas remain in power, or go far beyond what has been done up to now to try and uproot them. Both options are shit.
  23. You are missing the point that Hamas rules Gaza and uses it to commit terror attacks against Israel, thus making it impossible for Israel to make peace with Gaza while that remains the case. Forget an agreement, Israel can't even consistently have calm with Gaza when Hamas is still in power and constantly firing rockets and building up for attacks.
  24. It is disingenuous to claim this conflict alienates Israel from the ME when hatred of Jews among Arab and Muslims preceded the modern conflict and Palestinian identity by centuries and over a millennium. The modern Arab and Muslim states in MENA literally attempted to prevent and then destroy Israel's existence, not to mention the ethnic cleansing of the entire millennia old exile communities of Jews in MENA. The central issue of this conflict is and has always been the refusal to accept a sliver of Jewish self-determination in their indigenous homeland and a "the South Will Rise Again" mentality among Palestinians that the West has funded and enabled, including through the UNRWA.
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