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Posts posted by Mithras

  1. If this was always in the plans, then it is bad writing because GRRM failed to build that up in the books so far.

    If this is a retcon (which it is btw), then it is a bad retcon.

    Not all retcons should necesarily be bad but this particular one is even worse than Maggy's Prophecy.

    GRRM needs to see that he has a third alternative. Instead of choosing his poison as bad writing or bad retcon, he could well do nothing.

    If GRRM proceeds with this idea, it will be worse than the catspaw failure.

  2. 1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

    What was the reaction to Feast and Dance when they were first released? By the time I came around, they were being held up as masterpieces, but I don’t think that was how they were initially received.

    Their current perception is like how it was when they were released, i.e. disappointment. Something along the lines of "We've waited 5-6 years for this?"

  3. Me: Who are the actual parents of Jon Snow from "A Song of Ice and Fire" series?

    ChatGPT: In the "A Song of Ice and Fire" series, Jon Snow is believed to be the illegitimate son of Eddard Stark, but it is later revealed that his true parents are Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. According to the story, Lyanna was promised to Robert Baratheon, but Rhaegar, who was already married to Elia Martell, fell in love with Lyanna and they secretly married. Lyanna died soon after giving birth to Jon, and fearing that Robert Baratheon would kill the child as he was a Targaryen, Ned Stark claimed him as his own illegitimate son and raised him at Winterfell. This revelation has significant implications for the story and its various plotlines, especially regarding Jon's claim to the Iron Throne and his relationship with Daenerys Targaryen.

  4. 31 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

    But no, after sitting on Dragonstone and letting Robert die in ignorance of the danger Stannis knew about, and uttering not a word for months afterwards, his priority was not the Lannisters, it was killing his other brother.

    Someone visited the Cushing Library and checked the early drafts of AFfC before it was split, which naturally included all the POVs. In this version of Jon's story dating to early 2000s, while Stannis was still at Castle Black, Jon was secretly making plans to lead a ranging party to the Craster's in order to deal with the remaining mutineers there. Below is the page where Jon learns that Stannis knew his plans:


    I laughed so hard to this one. If Jon's men are informing on him to Stannis, it would be their duty. After all, a leal subject has no secrets from his rightful king. :lmao:

    What was the thing that Gandalf told Saruman? Stannis should have been the king's jester.

  5. 19 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

    “A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

    And she never for a second thinks, ‘hmmm could this be anything Stark-related?’.

    In TWoW, she will  B)


  6. On 1/17/2023 at 9:52 PM, Mithras said:

    Not true. That 1993 outline included the first 13 chapters that were almost identical to the published version.

    Now we have a proof for this. Someone went to the Cushing Library and checked the 93 November and 94 November AGoT manuscripts.

    It is most curious that Ned's dreams about Lyanna first appeared in 94 November and back then it was Jon Arryn, not Howland Reed, who found Ned holding Lyanna's dead body at the Tower of Joy.



  7. 10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

    Its Mel's usual bit about "the path ahead and the path not taken and it comes over as a warning that if he goes, she'll go too. OK its ambiguous anent Mel but there is no-one else in Red at Castle Black to go along with the rangers

    Hmm, I see the confusion. The vision was just a single scene. It didn't say they were going from A to B.

    It is possible that the vision was from an instance where they did the ranging and were on the way back to Castle Black, which means they encountered the red lady during the mission. Or they did not return directly to Castle Black but continue ranging to Hardhome, after learning where the free folk were from the red lady. This was one of Jon's primary objectives. The vision might be from an instance on the way to Hardhome.

  8. 2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

    I'm inclined to disagree.

    There's no alternative candidate so far and I think that Mel is simply warning Jon that if he does go ranging, she will go too

    She doesn't have the authority to command Jon though. If he says no to her (and considering that he is even more distrustful of her in this draft compared to the published version, he will say no to her), then she will stay back. Besides, this was a proper vision and if the red woman in the vision was herself, Mel would know it and tell it. Like the grey girl on a dying horse, GRRM might have planned Mel as the misdirection in this case.

  9. Quote

    “The fires show me much and more,” murmured Melisandre. “faces and shapes, the morrow and the day after, the path ahead and the path not taken. I have seen your rangers riding through the storm, Jon Snow, with pale shadows all around them. It is you who leads the riders, with your beast beside you. Behind come twenty men in black… and one woman all in red.”

    At this moment, Jon was thinking of leading a ranging party to deal with the mutineers at Crasters and at the same time, find out what happened to the rest of wildlings scattered to the Haunted Forest after Stannis defeated Mance.

    This woman is obviously not Mel. But who else might she be? I think I know the answer.



    A Storm of Swords - Jon I

    “One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. We were skinning it when the smell of blood drew a shadow-cat out of its lair. I drove it off, but not before it shredded my cloak to ribbons. Do you see? Here, here, and here?” He chuckled. “It shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me.”


    > Grandmother, found the scarlet silk from Asshai, dead

    >> her daughter, old wisewoman, dead

    >>> her daughter, healed Mance and patched up his cloak with scarlet silk, unknown status

    I think the woman all in red is either the one who healed Mance or an unrevealed daughter of her (i.e. >>>>). I am leaning towards the unrevealed daughter being the one. But I don’t think we will see her in TWoW. I believe GRRM introduced a replacement for her in ADwD and she is none other than Morna White Mask, who is a warrior witch wearing a weirwood mask.

    The daughter of the old wisewoman healed Mance from a fatal wound before he bled to death. The last we saw Jon, he was bleeding to death just like Mance after getting shredded by the shadowcat. This connection is not a coincidence IMO. Morna White Mask will somehow be instrumental in Jon’s healing/resurrection (whichever case you believe).

  10. 11 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

    I don't think they were identical, because by Eddard II, which is the twelfth chapter of AGoT if you don't count the prologue, Arya has already departed for King's Landing with the royal party, whereas in the 1993 outline she was supposed to go north of the Wall with Catelyn. GRRM said that he submitted 13 chapters along with that outline.

    Arya would return to Winterfell after Ned's death and from there they would go north of the Wall with her mother after losing Winterfell.

  11. 26 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

    True, which is why we can’t prove that she existed in the story at that point. But if she did, I wonder what role she would have had, given that Jaime was the one doing all the villain stuff. Maybe she just would have been Robert’s wife.

    Not true. That 1993 outline included the first 13 chapters that were almost identical to the published version.

  12. 31 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

    But both Varys and Illyrio get a lot of page time in AGoT, and are even seen conspiring together. What would their purpose in the story be without Aegon? Escpecially Varys, since he already has a powerful position in Westeros, and has had it for a very long time. 

    The Aegon storyline is confusing no matter which way you look at it.

    Varys and Illyrio should have a totally different agenda back when GRRM wrote AGoT but we don't have enough clues to figure out what. As mentioned above, based on the Qarth episode, a fake Aegon seemed to have been in the plans before anything Blackfyre existed. Maybe it was a descendant of Aerion Brightflame. But we don't have anything else on that front.

    I have a fringe theory that while restoring this or that Targaryen pretender was in Illyrio's plans, Varys had a secret agenda even Illyrio was oblivious to. I believe that the original Varys in AGoT was a sorcerer in league with the Others. He was trying to create destability in the Realm while looking for the perfect vessel for the "Night King" to claim when the time was right.

  13. "New" material at last ;)



    On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother had gone, the grey brother who smelled of summer. With the cliff between them, he could not sense his brother, but sometimes when he padded down the long cold burrow under the ice and poked his nose through the hard black bars, he could feel him. The snow was falling where his brother was, covering all the woods in white. And there were hunters near, living men and dead men, and the ones who wore the shapes of men but smelled only of cold.

    From an earlier draft of the Jon chapter dating to 2003-2004 AFfC manuscripts. Full thread at the bottom.

    1. I always disliked the idea of the Wall blocking skinchanging but the above quote contains very solid evidence. Ghost could sense Summer beyond the Wall only when he poked his nose through the bars. In these drafts, Ghost wanted to range beyond the Wall so bad that I think Jon's refusal to seal the gates contrary to Marsh's suggestion was rooted in this feeling. 

    2. The "ones who wore the shapes of men but smelled only of cold" are the Others.



  14. 8 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

    I don't want to derail or relitigate this stuff, so I'll just say the 'Meereen knot' was kind of like how when I don't want to exercise and I find all kinds of made up reasons why I can't do it or fill in the blank for any task that I procrastinate on, using excuses that don't really withstand much scrutiny.  That's my opinion.  

    "Kicking the can down the road" is what GRRM did with AFfC and ADwD. He simply avoided facing the hard problems related to having the plot advance and converge.

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