LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse

Poor george.

Honestly, i try to turn my brain off each time i watch GOT, but..... the dialogue, the writting, the inmensely stupid plot twits..its awful. How could he let this happen...

20 minutes ago, Gneisenau said:

Warlocks have ability to see into the future. Anybody think the warlocks who casted blood magic on Samwell (under the guise of making him braver), did it because they forsaw Euron capturing the warlocks and wanted to aid Sam against Euron ?

that would be awesome.

I remember there was a theory that Sam would kill Euron with an arrow..

10 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Please remind me where we were told he had 100 longships. 

"hundreds" i meant to say.

IIRC in a small council, cersei is told a thousand ships were attacking the reach.

probably exageranted reports, but the point is Euron has more longships than those that Aeron sees.. He is sending ships he captured and a small number of longships as decoy. his true strengh will remain behind.

One important thing to note is :

And so, Aeron Damphair returned to the salt sea. A dozen longships were drawn up at the wharf below the castle, and twice as many beached along the strand. Familiar banners streamed from their masts: the Greyjoy kraken, the bloody moon of Wynch, the warhorn of the Goodbrothers. But from their sterns flew a flag the priest had never seen before: a red eye with a black pupil beneath an iron crown supported by two crows.

This is not Eurons entire fleet. he had hundred of longships. those are just a bunch of houses really.

Therefore, most likely euron will use these ships as decoy.. destroying them alogside the redywine fleet with whatever magic he is working.. except for those with priests on their prows.

https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/2016/06/03/my-god-my-god-why-have-you-forsaken-me/

fantastic essay..

euron = devil.

6 hours ago, Gi_Varotti said:

 

Wasn't Theon about to be executed by Stannis as an offer to R'hllor when Asha told him to sacrifice him to the Old Gods of the Starks? :/

This is from the released Winds' Theon's chapter 

 

 

i think there is about 0 probablyt of that happening.

33 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Yes, my theory is that the Faceless Men and Euron are working together, his "kill all the gods thing" fits the FM's MO so that the Many-Faced God is the only one left.  The Faceless Men would be one of the few groups who's been to the ruins of Valyria and recovered things like Dragonbinder and the Valyrian steel armor. Euron might not have gone there himself, but I think he's telling the truth of where Dragonbinder came from.

 

 

The cult of the many faced god considers all those gods as one of many faces.

in the vision of the throne with the impaled gods, the stranger (one of the faces of the god of many faces) was present IIRC. So Euron killed one of the representations of said god.

i don´t see how that works with your theory.

7 minutes ago, bent branch said:

What you have quoted suggests that the battle being prepared for in this chapter has already occurred. I think if people take a look at a map, they will see that it is quite a distance back to Oldtown (this also suggests Euron went right on past on his way to this battle). I really don't think Euron is going to turn around and go back. I think he will continue on to Meereen from this battle.

i thought Euron would summon a storm. but i think i like this one more.

Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons, and krakens, and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him.

this foreshadows euron having krakens under his command.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse

I just don't buy the idea that some small horn supposedly hidden by some NW man not so long ago (you know, because else the black cloth would have been rotted away) is the big magical horn.

 

 

Hidden for a reason…. Alongside the weapon to defeat the others. What other purpose can that horn have?

Besides, if the huge horn seemingly powerfull horn Mance used to bluff jon with, was fake, then the real horn should be the opposite, dirty, small and broken.

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Not to mention that it would be a rather boring story if it turned out that the Others needed Euron and Samwell for their grand plan, not to mention that, again, the idea that the horn blown down south is either not going to affect the Wall at all or has to affect the entire continent. And this would have to mean that a lot of castles and houses will come tumbling down aside from the Wall.

I say interesting rather than boring.. Humans enabling the apocalypse is totally GRRM stuff IMHO.

I stand with the theory that the whole westeros will shake... maybe the whole world.

The Wall is taller than most castles, probably more unstable.

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And there is little chance that Euron will get his hands on Sam's horn (or care about that if he did) before he faces the Redwyne fleet.

i agree with that. who said anything about sounding the horn before he faces the redwyne fleet?

if he does, he will do so after that battle.. after he takes oldtown.

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If Theon is ever going to rule the Iron Islands then the Ironborn will be as castrated as he is. They are very unlikely to take a mutilated eunuch as their king of their own free will, so we would have to imagine they would have to be as broken as he is to accept somebody like him.

But I actually consider it more likely that Asha was the last hope of the Ironborn. Peace was the only way to save their lives. But they choose Euron as his travesty of the old way. Now they are going to pay. This time dragonfire might cleanse the Iron Islands for good.

And, of course, there won't be a Kingsmoot again. Not many Ironborn will ever return to their rocks after they decided to leave with Euron.

a number of scenarios could play out.

i find likely that post Euron ironborn will be much more reasonable.

often defeat does that to people,. There are hints of a progresive faction in the Iron Islands.

5 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

I take a different view, to me Euron is not just a simple villain. He is just a boy who dreamt of flying. But unlike everyone else, when they told him it was impossible, that he was mad, evil even, he refused to listen, refused to give up on his dream. Instead Euron set forth against immeasurable odds with courage, determination and an unflinching belief in himself. He journeyed to the edge of the world and back again to find the means of defying the cruel gods who thrust gravity upon him. And now, he is only one amethyst eyed bimbo's stupid decision away from achieving his dream. His story is one of belief, sacrifice, defying nonsensical superstitions, finding forgiveness from one's own kind, blood sacrifice, uniting people, more sacrifice, and most of all a lesson to always follow your dreams.

a story worthy of a Disney movie.

5 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Quite the opposite actually. Theon's not getting the isles. 

He'll be no match for Euron. 

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“Aeron, my good and faithful servant, you must tell the Ironborn that the Crow’s Eye is no true king. That the Seastone Chair by rights belongs to…to…to…”

Not Victarion. Victarion had offered himself up to the captains and they had spurned him. Not Asha. In his heart, Aeron had always loved her best of all his brother Balon’s children. The Drowned God had blessed her with the warrior spirit, but he had cursed her with a woman’s body, too.

 

that leaves, theon. aeron doesn´t think of him, because theon is dead as far as he knows..

whose name means Godly. and only a Godly man may sit the seastone chair. he also has the legal precedent to overthrow Eurons kingsmoot..

sure Euron seems invincible right now.. but i doubt he will win in the end. his quest is folly.

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Who said anything about the Breaking having anything to do with the Horn of Winter. And even if it did (for some strange reason)

Strange reason? i mean, the horn is said to "wake the giants of the earth".. and the breaking of the arm is described exactly the same. Can the author be less subtle than that?

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there is also talk about blood sacrifice engulfing the entire continent in an earthquake. If blowing the horn is going to have such an effect without all those spells and blood sacrifices then we can not only kiss the Wall goodbye but also all the castles in Westeros - because none of them is going to withstand a serious earthquake.

 

I´m sure Euron wouldn´t mind a bit of sacrifice to get his new horn to work. In fact we will soon see him do exactly that for the battle againt the Redwynes.

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That would only make sense if only that horn would be able to wake the giants in the earth - and there is no reason to believe that.

There is reason. The legend explicitly says it does that.

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Besides, we do know that this horn is also called 'the Horn of Joramun' and that guy was the first King-beyond-the-Wall which strongly suggests he lived and died in the lands beyond the Wall. Which means the Others could have found said horn a long time ago, possibly in Joramun's very own grave.

No way. I´m quiting the books if the Others out of nowhere found the HoW. Sams horn is the only inconspicuously well developed chejkov horn waiting to go off.

Dragonbinder will do its thing. It will bind one of the dragons to someone. Victarion, or Euron, Or Morroqo, or someone else.

but this is ice and fire. We have the fire horn, its only fair we get the ice horn as well.

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As to any Horn of Winter stuff:

Come on, the idea that a horn blown down in the South will have any effect up at the Wall is just nonsense. We know from TWoIaF that the Horn of Joramun is causing an earthquake, presumably in the region in which its magical sound is actually heard. That means the Horn of Winter will have to be blown near the Wall and presumably by some guy who wants to bring down the Wall. It could turn out to be the Weeper or one of the Others. After all, they might have secured that horn long ago for their own ends.

 

I´m curious where you get that from.

Twoiaf in fact says otherwise:

And so they did, gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of Faces), and calling on their old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claims the children used the blood of their own young). And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled. Great cracks appeared in the earth, and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up. And then the seas came rushing in, and the Arm of Dorne was broken and shattered by the force of the water, until only a few bare rocky islands remained above the waves. The Summer Sea joined the narrow sea, and the bridge between Essos and Westeros vanished for all time.

So if the Horn of Joramun was used for the breaking of the arm of Dorne and the hammer of waters (and probably the tsunami that hit the Iron Islands before they were islands), then it shows it triggers a world catastrophy, not a focalized event close to the horn.

The worms thing is a reference that there is no DG watery halls... and he won´t feast with his god.

another vision to shake Aerons faith.

but the chapter ends with a sort of hopeful line:

He licked his lips, and tasted salt.

Is Aeron doomed or that line is meant to give him some strengh back?

maybe he makes it out of that battle..

Also, its pretty clear to me now that Theon will rule the iron islands in the end

I can totally see Melisandre being that terrible shadowed tall woman with white fire. She is i think the character that better fits.

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. . we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam.

she could in some way also help the Others cause... unknowinly lead westeros into deeper darknes.

And Euron :

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But beyond the Wall, the enemy grows stronger, and should he win the dawn will never come again. She wondered if it had been his face that she had seen, staring out at her from the flames. No. Surely not. His visage would be more frightening than that, cold and black and too terrible for any man to gaze upon and live. The wooden man she had glimpsed, though, and the boy with the wolf’s face … they were his servants, surely … his champions, as Stannis was hers.

Melisaandre introduced us to the champion of the Great Other.

Kind of Reverse Azor ahai.. Euron is adicted to liquid LSD (AKA shade of the eveging) in a quest to defeat all gods, and even become one,.. to  break the world to remake it.. bleeding star and all that.

A warlock king in search of powers that he doesn´t fully understand. I can totally see him  when he takes the HighTower , sounding the Horn of Winter from the top of said tower.

A horn of fire to get a dragon (maybe to use it to take oldtown.. there were dragons at the battle islands once).. and a horn of ice.. to wake the giants of the earth.

Just now, Nights Kings Queen said:

I've missed some of the comments here, so sorry if this has been asked or answered, but does this chapter officially debunk the Euron = Daario theory?

yes.

also the theory of Aeron leading a populist revolt in the Iron islands (at least for now)

and the theory of Euron going after Victarion to SB.

Euron is definitely going to Oldtown.

No one else is worthy of the Horn of Winter.

"the world will be broken and remade".. the bleeding star... Euron with the throne of defeated gods.. the sphinxes bowing to him

Euron is more than just another claimant to the throne of Westeros, even more than one that is convinced he will win.

Euron thinks he is above the gods.. that he is a god himself, or an instrument of the Great Other..

Melisandre introduced us to the concept of the "champion" of the Great Other, as Azor Ahai is the champion of Rhllor.

If there is such character in Asoiaf, Euron is the only one worhty.

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

N@LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse

 

 

1) thats unlikely, even if the GC has been winning every battle, and probably will continue to do so, they can´t really win the IT. Much less defeat Stannis in the north, Euron in the Reach, and in the Iron Islands. Even after defeating Mace, they will need dorne (and more).

After the Victarion and Barristan defeat Yunkai, there will be a window for the dornishmen to leave SB. Barristan will insist they make use of it.

2) When you take a position of power, you learn to swallow your hate if you mean to keep said position. I understand the point of mace hating her, and having a bad relationship, but that’s exactly why GRRM sent her there. She is not an important hostage, nor an important corpse (if Oberyn wasn´t enough to get dorne into war, less so his bastard daughter). And she is not meant to be expelled from the capital (if so, why sent her there in the first place?). Clearly the author means for these two sand snakes to play a role in the politics of KL.

3) http://beckermayer.com/wp-content/uploads/6289-The-Lands-of-Ice-and-Fire-1389383297.jpg

What we know is that preparations should have been made by the epilogue of ADWD (while at the same time JC was marching for SE, pretty far away from KL), for princess myrcellas arrival. We also know no one thought she was in danger of being intercepted.

 We also know that by Arianne II, Arianne figures she arrived KL, while the sellswrods just only captured SE.

We also know the dornish travelled far from the coasts. Unless some of the GC landed in the kingswood I don´t see how they could have intercepted them (and princess myrcella has 300 dornish soldiers).. to me its pretty clear they will arrive KL without trouble.

I disagree. GRRM sent her there for a reason. She is just another chekjov gun waiting to be shoot. Otherwise what was the point of sending her?

Even if the Golden Company does win against the Tyrell army, KL will still be safe.

a)      Mace (or Tarly) won´t take all of the tyrell army (like 40k) to the stormlands

      Jaime or whoever is in charge of the lannister army in the riverlands would rush for the crownlands

c)       Theres an army in dragonstone.

d)      The Golden Company realistically will take losses, making it impossible for them to take KL by themselves.

Taking SE, and defeating the tyrells, is what Aegon needs to stop being just a couple of adventurers, to become a serious threat. But its not enough to win him the IT.

Well that’s your interpretation. It’s more likely crowns means literary crowns, and myrcella will be crowned after her brother’s death. Btw she was never crowned in Ariannse plot.

No way she becomes Aegon´s queen. More likely a corpse (as connigton said, “to end the usupers line”)

4) There is also the lannister army in dragonstone, those will have to return at some point.

5) Varys would want to kill cersei at this time though? Tommen (and myrcella) sure.. though after Kevans death, security will be tighter. Cersei on the other hand, I think varys would want her to lose her trial, but she is one of the elements that bring instability to KL and therefore a positive thing for aegon at this point. Varys would want to keep the lannister and tyrell tension moving forward.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse

1. I don't think so. What if the news about Quentyn only arrives months later? Are you saying Dorne will stand by and do nothing while Aegon loses his war?

2. So you think Tyene doesn't have access to Tommen but to his cats? Not sure how that will work. Not to mention that Tyene doesn't even know Tommen has cats and how they look. I'd agree that Tyene might poison somebody. Perhaps the High Sparrow once he is no longer needed. Or some judges if they don't want to convict Margaery (in a scenario in which there is a trial and Tyene becomes one of the judges).

If Mace becomes the Lord Regent as well as the Hand he can do whatever the hell he wants. Nymeria is woman and a bastard and the daughter of that piece of shit who crippled his eldest son and heir. He has every reason to not allow her a seat on the council. The seat was granted to Prince Doran Martell not to his brother's bastard daughter, after all. Not to mention that he is not bound by the words of either Tyrion or Kevan.

3. Myrcella hasn't yet reached KL.

4. Well, we can reasonably assume she won't get a seat on the Small Council. Or talk to Mace and Margaery without a score or more Tyrell guardsmen in the room.

5. Again, she isn't even there yet. How can you say her purpose is to do stuff there if we don't yet know that she'll get there alive? Robb also had a plan how to return home and retake the North. That didn't work, either.

1) Aegon will be winning battle after battle.

2) Nym already said who she wanted to poison. The details doesn´t matter. GRRM will provide. Why on earth kill the HS?

Mace can´t do whatever the hell he wants.Winter has come, he faces rebellion in the north, in the Iron Islands, in the riverlands, in the stormlands and back home (and probably in KL itself, depending how Margs trial goes). He would be suicidal to refuse dorne its place in the Sc.

True the seat belongs to DM, but just as he sent Oberyn and Tywin sent tyrion, now he sends another representative.

3) she most likely has:

Nyrn and Tyene may have reached King’s Landing by now, she mused, as she settled down crosslegged by the mouth of the cave to watch the falling rain. If not they ought to be there soon. Three hundred seasoned spears had gone with them, over the Boneway, past the ruins of Summerhall, and up the kingsroad.

notice they arent going to pass near the GC..And Arianne figures they are already there. from the epilogue we know they are close to the capital, and that they should make preparations. At no point anyone is worried the raiders in the Stormlands could trouble them. Why should we assume they are going to be intercepted?

Myrcella must be crowned btw, so she must arrive KL. if JonCon intecepts them, then she will be a corpse.

4) we don´t know really. GRRM will need a pov for certain events. besides how many men does house lannister have in KL?

5)i think by arianne II she will be there. in Aegons camp what role could she play? in KL on the other hand..

they are killers. they must at least try to kill someone. why create the characters if not?

in Aegons camp, they serve no purpose.. in KL, on the other hand...

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think there is a chance for any of that. Doran and Arianne will commit their armies to Aegon's cause pretty soon. Perhaps even prior to the battle against the Tyrell, perhaps only thereafter. But they cannot sit back and wait any longer.

Tyene has little to no chance to get close to Tommen. She is supposed to infiltrate the Great Sept and not the court. And Nym might not even be allowed to join the Small Council or be welcome in the castle. Why should Mace allow her to sit on his Small Council?

I don't think it is a given that Nym is even supposed to reach KL. She could just have been a tool to get Myrcella to Aegon, and might join him and Arianne at Storm's End.

George has also confirmed that there won't be any additional Dornish POV so there is also no good chance we'll get any insight in the politicking at court aside from Cersei's perspective - who might no longer be allowed to play or witness anything of importance. She certainly won't be privy to anything Mace, Tarly, and Margaery talk about. That could be a pretty big hint that the time of court intrigues is over. Aegon is coming, and what happens in KL will no longer matter.

Oh, and there is a very good chance that Nym would be executed pretty quickly should Myrcelle ever be reunited with her mother. Cersei will ask her daughter what actually happened in Dorne. And if Myrcella tells the truth then Nymeria is not going to leave the Red Keep in one piece.

1) Doran is a cuatious man. He won´t commit to anything until he knows about Quentyn

2) Tyene doesnt need to posion tommen directly. Just his cats with basilisks blood. As a writter you don´t create a character who is an expert in poison so that you don´t even try to use him to posion someone. She is another chehkov gun waiting to be shoot.

Mace won´t like it, but would he dare insult Doran martelll by refusing Dorne its seat in the small council?

3) Myrcella has already reached KL. besides she needs to be crowned.

4) we don´t know what will be Cerseis role in the Tyrell regime.

5) there is little chance of Nym being executed quicky. No sense in sending her there.

Darkstar, i think they are two theories around that i like

a) he steals dawn and joins Aegon´s KG

b ) Joins obara and with the remaining brave companions raids Oldtown.

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, Nym doesn't exactly have an army with her, so she won't be able to do all that much. And I'm not sure if Nym's mission is still relevant right now. When Doran dispatched her he still intended to buy time for Quentyn and Daenerys. But right now Arianne has nearly reached Aegon and Nym is not yet in KL. Assuming she will be allowed to stay at court (and not arrested or thrown out of the city) she won't have much time to influence things and should Doran and Arianne proclaim for Aegon she might very well be killed.

In fact, if Nym ever gets to KL she is a very likely candidate for the first Sand Snake to die. Tyene should be able to join the Faith in no time but Nym will be a public and recognizable Dornish face in the city.

By the way: George has commented that Areo Hotah will remain a POV in TWoW. Any ideas where he is story is going to go? Many people have speculated for quite a long time that this is going to lead to his death and Obara's as well (and perhaps Darkstar's, too). But I don't think that's actually very likely.

I think the only point of the Darkstar story is to finally introduce House Dayne into the story, with Obara/Areo learning something at High Hermitage that may lead them to Starfall. And we really want to meet the real Daynes eventually, don't we? It is certainly no coincidence that no representative of Lord Edric showed up at Sunspear in the last two books.

More important than what Doran had in mind for Nym in KL, is what GRRM had in mind for her. Clearly she is supposed to play a role in KL during what we could call, the "tyrell regime" (if indeed Mace takes over during Twow) otherwise, GRRM wouln´t have send her there.

I don´t think they are supposed to reach KL and die right away.. they are supposed to dance, during the whole book, until Dorne is ready to join the war.

More so, i think all sand snakes (save for sarella) will contribute to push dorne to war (for the wrong team).. specially (these two), when they see Ser Robert, they are going to feel cheated.

Nym already told us what she wanted, to kill Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, and tommen

Tyene will posion tommen, and Nym will try to kill cersei (and face ser Robert)

theres always the possibility that Marg did have her trial, lost it, and Mace butchered the faith militant to rescue her (which has some foreshadowing IMHO), profanating the sept of baelor with blood.

this of course would bring the faith of the seven to Team Aegon.

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

On coordinating with Mercy and the Epilogue to Dance...

Before Harys is to go to Braavos he is to treat with Myrish bankers and Pentoshi magisters...

Epilogue, Dance

But he should have been prepared to leave as soon as he was rejected or was unable to reach satisfactory terms...

Epilogue, Dance

But apparently before that was to happen, Cersei's trial was set to take place within five days...

 

Epilogue, Dance

My assumption is that Cersei won her trial (all parties--Tyrell, Lannisters & the Faith--want her to win) and then Harys departs.

Since we see Mace’s army is marching, I am assuming  that Marwan hers too. 

I don´t see the point in having two trials in which both Cersei and Marg end up being innocent. Since we can all agree Cersei will win hers with Ser Robert Strong, then it makes sense to have Marg lose hers (besides she is pretty much asoiafs Anne Boleyn). I also think all the clues and hits point to that direction.

1) The HS says the evidence is weak (which makes me think it will probably be the other way)

2) Her hymen is broken

3) Everybody heard Pycelle declare that Marg asked him for the moon tea, conveniently for the tyrells he and Kevan (the regent) end up murdered, in order for Mace to take over. People will think the tyrells had them killed.

4) Qyburn holds all the accusers, and we have seen how that man works his miracles (horrors).. after all the blue bard keeps singing the song he and Cersei taught him. That means by the time the trial is conducted, they will all confess.

5) One of them is actually an exile price from the summer islands. this is a trial conducted by the faith of the seven, and the summer islanders pretty much worship gods of sex. he can do some real damage to the queen.

6) Varys want her to be guilty, and that guy can fabricate evidence. as we saw in Tyrions trial.

7) the HS one of the likely judges, is a misogynist.

8) Tyene sand could be another

9) probably a Septa (if she is the one that takes care of cersei, she could sway her) could be another

10) Cersei and Taena conspire to have one of Margs cousins confess, the innocent and shy one (and probably the only guilty one)

as for Mace marching his army, in the epilogue he says what he would do. Have tommen declare margarery as innocent.

My take of the whole thing is that he will take over the regency, and do just that. He will march his army against Jon conngiton and miserably lose.

At some point, once the tyrells are not so powerful, cersei will return to power and hand Margery over to the faith, so that they can conduct the trial. and she will lose her head.