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Katerine459

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About Katerine459

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  1. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    Fair point. TBH, Victarion is far from my favorite character, and the Ironborn plot is far from my favorite plotline, so I don't pay that close attention to those chapters, so I will take your word for it that it happened. I was mainly thinking of Asha's attitude toward Rodrik, which does seem to be loving tolerance of his "weird" habits, and Asha also seems to be very much a product of the Ironborn culture. It's hard to say what would have happened if Sam had been born Ironborn. All I can say with any degree of certainty, is that he wouldn't have been allowed to gain that much weight. I still believe Sam would have turned out a lot more like Rodrik, had he been allowed any self-esteem growing up, but who's to say whether he would have been allowed that self-esteem with the Ironborn? Who's to say he'd even still be Sam?
  2. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    I don't disagree... just one little correction: Sam wasn't a grown man. Not really. He was sent to the Watch on his 15th birthday. Which is still a child, given what we know now, and even by the standards of the day/ of the world of ASOIAF, it seems to be just on the cusp. Ned and Benjen both objected to Jon going to the Wall at nearly 15, and he's often referred to as a "boy." Robb as well, is often referred to as a "boy," and I'm guessing he'd turned 15 by the time the war started.
  3. Katerine459

    Cersei's thoughts about Joffrey's betrothal to Sansa

    Fair point, so let's do a compare and contrast. "Who sent the catspaw" was a question that was asked by several characters. Beginning with Catelyn, then Cassel, then Ned, and finally Tyrion (after he got falsely accused of it). It was a big mystery, that consumed a fairly good chunk of AGOT, and set off a huge chain of events that set the Starks and the Lannisters firmly against each other, and ended with Ned getting wounded, and later imprisoned and killed. It also set up Littlefinger's character very nicely. To not resolve it would have a) left readers unsatisfied, and b) left readers wondering if Tyrion was actively lying to the readers (which would have been a bit of a fourth-wall break). It also added a certain dimension to Joffrey, just in time for his death. I don't know about you, but when I read Tyrion's theory about why Joffrey would do this, it was almost the first time it really hit me that Joffrey was a child... who, like any child, wants to impress his father. Not that it stopped me from rejoicing when he died - he was still a total monster with way too much unchecked power to destroy other people's lives - but it added a depth that his character didn't have before, and a degree of pathos to his death. So.. yeah, it accomplished stuff. It resolved a mystery that not only was explicitly stated to the readers by several characters, but was a huge plot point in AGOT, and it deepened my view of Joffrey's character (and altered my view of Robert's as well) into more than just a cartoon villain, just in time for him to die. John's theory, OTOH, is a theory (not even one with an element of mystery) which was never explicitly stated to the readers - you have to do some significant reading between the lines to even see anything there. And all I can think of that it would do, is make Cersei even more unreliable a narrator, as well as even more irrational (Joffrey was going to have to marry somebody - who better than a completely malleable highborn child who could solidify the allegiance of the North?) Other than that... I can think of nothing.
  4. Katerine459

    Cersei's thoughts about Joffrey's betrothal to Sansa

    Question: If @John Suburbs is correct, does it break anything? Likewise, if he's wrong, does it break anything? Does it change anything at all? If John's correct, it makes Cersei an even less reliable narrator... but other than that, does it change anything? Does it change any living characters (or dead ones, for that matter)? Could it possibly have an effect on the plot in the future? How would anything be proven, and would any of the characters even care at this late date, when a) the main player is dead, and b) whatever the plan was, it didn't work, and c) Sansa certainly had much bigger things to worry about since then? Does it change anything about the world? Does it flesh out or coalesce the world at all, like the revelation about the relationship between Sybell Spicer and Maggy did? Does it do anything? If not, why would George sit on a mystery that only one reader even knows exists? And why can't we just let that reader have his own reading?
  5. Katerine459

    What if Daenerys was Ugly?

    If she'd been born ugly, I doubt she could have been sold to Khal Drogo (he wouldn't have taken her). If she'd been offered, and he wasn't pleased... the books don't state what would have happened. Without that, she probably would have stayed with Viserys, and stayed the timid girl she was at the beginning of the series, until either Illyrio hatched a different plan, or cast them out.
  6. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    Being "lazy" does not mean that you're unwilling to do, or resentful of, hard work? Since when? What does it mean, then? What I'm trying to understand, is exactly how many examples of hard work that Sam does willingly (rowing towards a place he dreads, taking care of the ravens, taking care of Aemon, walking to from the Fist to the Wall in heavy snow until his physical endurance gives out - which happens to others before it happens to him, researching day and night in the Vaults, etc), does it take to counter your accusation of laziness (which you seem to have supported solely on the fact that he missed one archery lesson when he lost track of time, and apparently didn't make it up, and that there's no mention of him volunteering himself for extra training). How do you define, "lazy," to justify slapping Sam with that label, when every single example you cited that involves an actual choice on his part (all 2 of them), has a far better-supported explanation (fear and severe emotional baggage)? Are you including the stuff that happened before Dickon was born (when Sam was between 4 and 7 years old)? This stuff? (I say Sam was between 4 and 7, because according to the Wiki, Sam was born in 283 AC, and Dickon was born sometime between 287 and 290 AC.) First of all, do you not think that this has a lasting effect on a person, especially when experienced at that young an age? Why would Sam volunteer himself for something he associates with humiliation, pain, failure, and his father going from being proud to being angry to being disgusted? Especially when it's, at most, a secondary duty in his particular job? Why does that make him lazy? Second... you mentioned that you consider Sam the laziest of the POV characters (excluding prologues). It's true that he's not Jon, Bran, Ned, Barristan, Dany, Jaime, Tyrion, Catelyn, Arianne, Victarion, Asha, or Brienne. (I'm missing a couple here; please assume that if I didn't mention them before, and not in the rest of the post, then they belong in the above list). No comparison is possible between Sam and Cersei, because they're just too different in every conceivable way... and not just because Sam is a decent person and Cersei is a malignant narcissist. They also had such different expectations, limitations, and goals in their lives, that it's impossible to compare them to say which one is "lazier." Too many variables. I would say that Theon is more lazy than Sam, pre-Reek (it becomes irrelevant after he becomes Reek, because then he's ruled by fear). He arrives at Pike with the expectation that he will just be given a prestigious command, without having to earn it, even though that's not how the Ironborn work, and is insulted when he's given a command that he feels is beneath him. Sam never does anything like that, and gratefully takes any job that doesn't involve stuff that has major fears and emotional baggage, and works diligently at it. Sansa, too. I admire her resilience starting in ACOK, but let's face it... she waits for stuff, including her own rescue, to come to her. I wouldn't necessarily say that's more "lazy" than Sam, but it's certainly not less. Then there's Arya. Now, Arya is one of my favorite characters, and I would never in a million years slap her with the label of, "lazy." But she spends much of AGOT doing exactly what you (falsely, at least post-AGOT... I'll cover when he was younger later in this paragraph) accuse Sam of doing: skiving off lessons that she's supposed to take in order to better become the person she was assigned to become at birth (in her case, a lady, and in his case, a lord), in favor of doing what she wants to do... what she's actually suited for. And she had far less to fear than Sam at the time... her same-sex parent "despairs" of Arya, but there's a huge difference between despair and disgust, and while she is humiliated by her shoddy needlework, she is not "cursed and caned, slapped and starved." Is she lazy? And before you mention that she's just a child in AGOT... she was 9. Sam was, at most, 7 when Dickon was born and Randyll gave up on him, and was younger than that when all of the above happened to him.
  7. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    You responded to everything except all the most important parts of my post. Hoping this was a mistake on your part and you accidentally hit the Submit button too soon. I'm off to bed.
  8. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    I'd edited while you were posting. Sorry about that... it's a... thing that I have. :/ I was sure I remembered some mention at some point of Sam being good at sums. It's nearly 1:00am where I am, so it's hard to recall, though. But even if not, the Iron Bank probably has good use for scribes, even ones who just speak the common tongue. And Sam is smart. He would have learned Braavosi. Probably would have enjoyed learning it. I'm glad you're acknowledging that Sam cares enough about Jon, Aemon, Gilly, and the Night's Watch in general to do his duty, and not even consider desertion as an option. But I wonder, then... why are you calling him lazy, again? Because I'd define this as the polar opposite of laziness. If he were lazy, he would have at least seriously considered it. Is it really only because he avoids training? (And why wouldn't his instinctive tendency be to avoid training when possible, when he associates training with being "cursed and caned, slapped and starved," paraded in women's clothes, and of course, associated it with constant and neverending failure, abject humiliation, and being viewed with disgust by parental figures? Even if you somehow believe that ongoing experience wouldn't be traumatic for a child -- a very strange belief, but never mind -- it still is, at the very minimum, hell on self-esteem.) It's also worth noting that waiting for Sam, at Oldtown, was a job he absolutely dreaded -- becoming a Maester. You acknowledged earlier that the idea of becoming a Maester was traumatic for him. It was also very close to Horn Hill, a prospect that he found equally terrifying. I wonder, then, if learning Braavosi and finding a job as a scribe or accountant would truly have been more objectively difficult for him than going to Oldtown and becoming a Maester. And then, after that, he gets to go back to the Wall, where there are Others. Speaking as someone with fears, usually anything that does not involve doing the thing you're afraid of, is easier than anything that does involve doing the thing you're afraid of. He chose to do hard work for passage to Oldtown, towards a job he dreaded, for the sake of his duty and the people he cared about. How is that lazy?
  9. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    i didn't ignore them, you were repeating yourself and i had already pointed out, he does not have a choice to not do them, it is either refuse and swim to oldtown. ...and you ignored them before, too. Why do you think I'm repeating them? The rowing was only one of the examples I listed. On a separate but related note, I did miss a relevant response before. Sorry about that. Here's what I'd intended to say before: In fact, Sam did have another choice that did not involve rowing to Oldtown. He could have stayed in Braavos, deserted the Night's Watch, and let Aemon die. That would actually have been the lazy thing to do. Dareon was doing it. Braavos isn't in Westeros, so as far as he knew, he wouldn't have been in significant danger for desertion in Braavos (he had no idea that Arya was killing people in Braavos for desertion). And it would have meant he could have an easier life than the life with the NW, which has horrible working conditions. He could have sold his services to the Iron Bank or the Sealord as a scribe or accountant, and lived in a comfortable climate at an easy and enjoyable job. He chose to work for passage for himself, two other adults, and a baby, to Oldtown, when he knew that a job he dreaded was at the end of the trip, instead of doing that.
  10. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    no, it is not, Sam has never used it once. you are using it as an excuse for a character, nothing is his fault apparently, it is only down to trauma. the kid who had several years of peace with music and cakes while the peasants are eating shit and the noble sons his age are training, being beat in the practice yards, some actually in wars while it is poor old Sam who should be excused from doing anything he does not like because of 'trauma'. You're... just going to completely ignore the book quotation I cited. The one that explains in excruciating detail why he would find training traumatic. Ok. he does, when? ...in the book passage I'd cited 2 seconds before this. It's also blatantly evident in the entire first training session with Thorne, that ended with Sam cowering on the ground. he also didn't have a problem beating the crap out of Dareon. he showed zero sign of trauma about that. seems if fighting was that traumatic this would be the perfect example for it to express itself, it does not. Ever see A Christmas Story? The scene where Ralphie beats up Scott Farkus is coming to mind. You don't think that asserting himself like that was hard for Sam? Or that it wasn't a sign that he'd reached a breaking point? And, btw, how exactly does that fight relate to finding fight training traumatic in the first place? He wasn't training. It was actually hard for him, but for an unrelated reason... it was hard because asserting himself doesn't come naturally to him. no, he does not. he is acceptable, not well "As well," I said. Meaning, "In addition to." And you're also going to completely ignore the examples of menial work that he willingly does to the best of his ability, that I cited, in spite of the fact that they're directly relevant to your main thesis (that Sam is lazy). :/ It would be one thing if you ignored irrelevant or redundant passages, but you're actually ignoring passages that support arguments, that you then claim are unsupported!
  11. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    *sigh* Ok, either you're arguing for the sake of arguing, or you are completely out of touch with how humanity works. Trauma is not an excuse. It's a very real thing. And, btw, I never said that Sam associates physical activity with trauma. I said he associates training with trauma. Training, at fighting, specifically. He doesn't find rowing traumatic, because he doesn't associate rowing with being beaten down, paraded in women's clothes, "cursed and caned, slapped and starved." You asked what obstacles he overcame when practicing archery. Anytime somebody confronts their fears, it's overcoming an obstacle, and he should be proud of it. It doesn't matter if the rest of the people have to do the same thing... it means something different when it's something you're afraid of. Laziness is slacking at work that you object to for no other reason than that you don't want to work. You have yet to cite a single example of Sam avoiding any work that he does not find traumatic, whereas the rest of us have cited several examples of him diligently working at any non-traumatic task he's given. And he doesn't just do the work he enjoys, either. When given menial work, he does that as well. In addition to the rowing, I can't think that caring for the sick Maester Aemon was particularly enjoyable for him. Or caring for the ravens, which I'm sure involves cleaning their dung and other non-enjoyable tasks.
  12. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    how does he fear training? come on! People fear things they associate with trauma. Trust me on this. Sam has reason to associate training with trauma, and he clearly fears it. Fear =/= laziness. Most of the rest of your post completely ignores this point. Your shitting me, right, he is constantly complaining. I've been working at my archery every afternoon with Ulmer, as you commanded . . . well, except when I'm in the vaults, but you told me to find out about the Others. The longbow makes my shoulders ache and raises blisters on my fingers." He showed Jon where one had burst. his whole time in Braavos was spent whining about Dareon as he is incapable of fending for himself. That's not complaining. He's proud of his blisters, so he wants Jon to see them as proof of him overcoming his obstacles! Dareon was a little sh*t, and Aemon was dying, and they weren't going anywhere. How was Sam supposed to act? You asked how I determined that he does his best at his duties. I answered with examples of him working hard, and at things that he probably didn't find particularly enjoyable (working as a rower for passage from Braavos to Oldtown, for example). Exactly how did you expect me to address an accusation of laziness, except by citing examples of him notably not slacking? no, his best friend did in the knowledge that Sam would be too lazy to properly learn how to hunt, build or do any of the other regular duties of a steward. No, Jon did it in the knowledge that Sam would be broken down and probably indirectly killed by Thorne if left alone with him, and Sam could be of real use to Maester Aemon. Already covered in this thread. When was Sam supposed to train in archery? He wasn't a free, or a money-paying passenger. He was ROWING. bullshit, of course he would, he is not a saint. it would be perfectly natural to mourn losing a good job through no fault of your own. ...and you've just proven that you have no idea who Sam really is. Trust me... he'd take the change of fortune in stride and do his best to take care of the dogs, and just be glad that he still has worthwhile work to do. As long as it doesn't involve things that are traumatic, he's fine.
  13. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    It's my fault. I didn't explain it properly before. I totally understand why you interpreted what I wrote the way you did. There's a very fine - but important - line between what you read and what I meant to write, and I didn't write that line very well. My apologies. And it does seem you understand my point now. Often in these cases, the "fault" (if you can call it that) doesn't lie with just one person. Sam is terrified of Randyll, and by extension, authority figures in general. I trust we're agreed on that much? (if not, I'll do some digging when I can, and give you several dozen examples!) Because of that, if he'd ever had any instances of strategic insight while he was with Randyll (which is actually kind of unlikely, come to think of it... fear tends to shut down the higher thinking centers of the brain, which is why stage fright is a thing), he'd have kept it to himself because he would have been too afraid to speak up in Randyll's presence. So even if Randyll were inclined to show approval (which I see as about as likely as Tywin showing approval of Tyrion), he wouldn't have been given the occasion to do so. The end result, sadly, is the same - Sam grew up believing that everything about himself is worthless. I count Sam's compassionate, gentle, and sensitive nature as "good" qualities, and it was those I mainly was thinking about when talking about Randyll trying to beat them out of him.
  14. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    You're citing examples of fear as examples of laziness. Fear =/= laziness. He shows Jon the blisters from archery practice. Ergo, he has blisters from archery practice. Ergo, he practices archery. Even though he associates training with trauma, he still shows up. there is, we have not seen him work hard at anything he does not enjoy and we know he does not enjoy any of the regular duties of the steward. Again, can you cite a single example of Sam slacking at a duty that he's given? His duties involve tending the ravens, which he does. They involve assisting Maester Aemon, which he does. They involve helping Aemon and tending to him when he becomes sick, which he does. They involve rowing for passage to Oldtown, which he does. All without complaint or attempts at slacking. yup, thanks to Jon, his fairy godmother guaranteeing that he is not treated like a regular recruit, no wonder he felt the need to fix the election to make sure Jon was appointed. That's not Sam's choice, so it's not his fault. Ergo, you can't cite it as an example of Sam's supposed laziness. does he? how do you determine that? See 2 paragraphs above. examples of what? can you not speak for yourself? and I have not ignored anything she has said, apart from the times they were repeating their points I went over everything that they said. By the same token, I didn't find it necessary to repeat his/her points. And you've yet to address the fear =/= laziness point, or the examples of Sam risking being beheaded for desertion in order to stop Jon from deserting. Or the fact that being motivated by things that you enjoy or are personally invested in makes you normal, not lazy. sure, Chett is not better than Sam, both were more motivated in the cushy job, the major difference is that Chett paid his dues, worked to earn his position, had to pass his training and still got ousted when the son of Ned Stark used his influence to get his best friend a cushy position. Again, not Sam's choice, so citing this as an example of his laziness when he didn't choose the position in the first place is both unfair and illogical. The real difference is that, if Sam were reassigned to the kennels, he'd do his best to take care of the dogs, and not spend all his time mourning the loss of his cushy job, or plotting revenge on the people he blames for losing it.
  15. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    There's a reason I specifically mentioned excluding training and fighting. @Azarial has already covered this point in detail (and you've yet to address those points). Fear-based avoidance =/= laziness. And he still shows up. In spite of being afraid. That's the opposite of being lazy. If he'd been given a standard steward job, there's nothing saying he wouldn't work hard at it. He was given the job he was given, and he does his best at it. Again, @Azarial has cited several examples, all of which you've ignored. For an example of actual laziness at the Wall, look to Chet, who actively resents losing his cushy job and slacks at his current one.
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