Jump to content

Katerine459

Members
  • Content count

    181
  • Joined

  • Last visited

1 Follower

About Katerine459

  • Rank
    Squire

Profile Information

  • Gender
    Female
  • Location
    WI, USA

Recent Profile Visitors

861 profile views
  1. Katerine459

    [SPOILERS thru S7] Where did the show go wrong?

    I'm sorry about taking so long to respond... I took a long break from all things ASOIAF-related to focus on Marvel stuff for a while. When I first read this, many months ago, I didn't disagree, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that this is based on two very false assumptions: It's vitally important for the audience to know the person that Ramsay Bolton marries. We can't just care because a) she's forcibly married to somebody who routinely has hunting parties where he hunts people for sport, and b) Theon knows her and cares about her, and so she helps him remember that he's not Reek. Watching Sansa -- who's already a survivor thanks to surviving Joffrey and Cersei -- learn how to become a savvy game-player is inherently uninteresting. There's no way to make that interesting. My issues with the Sansa/Ramsay plotline are many, and mostly concern the fact that Littlefinger had no way of knowing that the Boltons wouldn't simply send Sansa back to KL in exchange for the reward Cersei was offering, along with the information that Littlefinger was the one who had Sansa all along, and LF is supposed to be savvier than that. And it exploited Sansa, as many others have pointed out. But it also, in many ways, committed the crime of making Sansa's story LESS interesting - because it doesn't lead to her developing in any ways that promise an interesting, important character in the future. The way that, say, watching the perfect lady survive Joffrey and Cersei and then learn at the feet of LF does.
  2. Katerine459

    [SPOILERS thru S7] Where did the show go wrong?

    I'm genuinely dumbstruck by people's tendencies to assume things are unrealistic, based solely on the fact that the character's actions don't match the way they think they themselves would act. What you call, "justifying," I call "reading for context." For 12-to-14-year-old nice peasant girl Tysha to react to her liege lord's considerable anger (when even your husband, his son, fears the guy) and the prospect of being gang raped, by being either struck dumb, terrified into silence, going into shock, feeling hopeless and alone, or all of the above, is many things - sad, unjust, etc. - but it is not unrealistic.
  3. Katerine459

    [SPOILERS thru S7] Where did the show go wrong?

    Just reread the recent posts, and realized that the main "believe-ability" issue in the books appears to be the idea that Tysha wouldn't have said anything. I actually think it would have been less believable if Tysha did say anything... and here's why: We don't know much about Tysha's character, but we do know that she was a peasant girl, somewhere around Tyrion's age (so somewhere between 12 and 14 at the time), and she was nice. Presumably, she lived in the lands owned by Tywin Lannister. And Tyrion had saved her from some would-be rapists. So now, put yourself in her shoes (TW: I'm about to describe some emotions surrounding a gang rape using the second person POV). You're a simple peasant girl, and the son of your liege lord(!!!) saves you from some would-be rapists. To your eyes, he seems like a fairy-tale, with the little exception of being a dwarf, being your age, and being far from handsome, but then, you're a peasant. And he clearly likes you, so you're polite and then nice to him, and then you find out that he's actually kind of sweet (as Tyrion at that age would definitely have been - we see traces of that even now, with the way he often treats Penny), and he's funny and smart... and yes, he's rich. You're a product of your times, which means you're constantly aware of the class system you live in. You become infatuated, and he's clearly in love with you, which is extremely flattering, and then he asks you to marry him. A few weeks pass, and you think this is actually going to work. But then (and here's where I'm drifting into a bit of speculation, as we don't know the exact circumstances from Tysha's point of view, but regardless of how it happened at first, the conclusion is the same), some knights come to your door and take you into custody. And they take you before Lord Tywin Lannister. The Lord Tywin Lannister. Your liege lord. And a man who is famous throughout Westeros for his history of wiping out the entire families of people who displease him -- to the point where there's a freaking song about it -- and you can tell at a glance that you have somehow seriously displeased him. There are seemingly hundreds of men in the room. You are terrified. He calls you the Westeros equivalent of a golddigger, and maybe a part of you thinks it's maybe true (you are, after all, still just a child yourself, and rather impressionable). He says that if you want the gold so much that you're willing to sell yourself for it, you will have your wish, and you wonder what that means... and the seemingly hundreds of men start to take off their clothes. Some of them are maybe even chuckling. And you realize what's about to happen. Tyrion comes in now, with his older brother, and you look at him pleadingly... and a stranger glares back at you. He's looking at you like you betrayed him. And you wonder if maybe it's true. Maybe you weren't as much in love with him as you thought... maybe it really was the money and the lifestyle that appealed to you. You also can't help but pick up on the vast difference in power between Tyrion and Tywin, and you realize that even if Tyrion would come to your defense, he couldn't. But he wouldn't, because whatever he's been told, he's no longer seeing you as a human being who doesn't want what's about to happen. You have absolutely no friends in this room. You are completely alone. So, no. No, you're not going to say anything. Even if you were physically capable of saying anything at this point (which you're not, because by now, your mind has taken its only defense and turtled up inside itself, leaving you standing there mute and staring at nothing), what would be the point? Other than to make Lord Tywin Lannister... of the Rains of Castamere fame... even more angry at you for defying him? So you turtle up inside yourself, let the men do what they will, then let Tyrion rip out the last shreds of your heart himself... and then, when you're finally dismissed, you take the money and anything that's left of your self-worth, and leave. That's the believable version of events. And it matches Tyrion's memories. There is absolutely no plot or character hole in GRRM's version of this story.
  4. Katerine459

    [SPOILERS thru S7] Where did the show go wrong?

    Wasn't Tyrion, like, 14 when the whole thing with Tysha happened? [Check that... I just looked it up... he was 13. Younger than what I originally thought!] Tyrion's story makes perfect sense in the books. He was an adolescent who idolized his older brother. Jaime was the only member of Tyrion's immediate family who didn't openly despise him, even showed some affection for him, and who hadn't called Tyrion a mother-murdering monster for literally Tyrion's entire life. He believe Jaime when Jaime said he'd set up the whole thing with Tysha because he idolized Jaime, because Tysha said she loved him and he didn't believe he was lovable, and because he was 14[13]. Tyrion is very smart, true, but how world-wise are you, really, at 14[13]? Who are you more likely to believe, the brother you've known your entire life or the girl you've known for a couple months? Especially when one of their stories fits with what you've been told your entire life (that you're unlovable), and the other person's story directly contradicts that (that you are lovable)? So he wound up believing Jaime, and letting Tysha be gang-raped (though he didn't understand it was rape at the time). Then, years later, after saving the city only to be shunted aside and forgotten by most, being forced to marry a child, being blamed by the people for Joffrey's monstrous actions, being put on trial for his life by his father and accused by his sister, having the woman he'd fallen in love with testify against him using lies mixed with truths that only she knew about (and I will never believe that book-Shae didn't choose to do that of her own free will), being found guilty and condemned to death... and THEN Jaime... arguably the one person in the world that Tyrion still trusted at all... tells him that he'd lied all those years ago, and Tysha really did love him, which meant that Tyrion had let her be gang-raped and then participated himself. He then finds the woman he loves in his father's bed (after his father had spent years openly despising Tyrion for his propensity for whores). And he snaps. What about this is unbelievable? I thought it was perfectly set up, as well as Tyrion's severe depression and PTSD in ADWD. It actually shows a great care for character development, to follow through with everything Tyrion had been through with the psychological effects of being through those things, even though those psychological effects made him less likable to many. I have mixed feelings about the show's treatment of him. On the one hand, I really, really like Tyrion. He's one of my favorite characters. And I love Peter Dinklage playing him, and it would be kind of hard to watch him become kind of unlikable, as he became in the books, after all this. It's also kind of hard, without access to his inner thoughts, to understand where it's coming from... the flashbacks and self-loathing that arose from... well, from his entire life, but especially from the events of ASOS, and most especially from the act of killing his father. Even with those inner thoughts, it was often hard for many to like him in ADWD. On the other hand... I really, really respect GRRM for not shying away from what Tyrion, as a human being who'd been through a very bad, love-starved, betrayal-filled life, would go through, and... I don't exactly resent D&D for not following through with it in their version -- at least, not in isolation. That is, if this were the only example of D&D not following through with character motivation and character development and character consistency (or showing any sign of caring about any of those things), I'd be more than fine with it. But it's not. Not by a long shot.
  5. Katerine459

    What if Daenerys was Ugly?

    Reading some of the responses on here, I wonder if people understand the point of what-ifs. The point, in a nutshell, is to give us a different perspective on the world we love, by forcing us to figure out exactly what would change if the metaphorical butterfly had been stepped on at a particular time. When we first met Dany, she was a timid, frightened, but resilient child, living in fear of her brother's temper. Everything else that she became, she became AFTER she married Drogo, as a direct result of marrying Drogo and becoming Khaleesi. So in order for her to become the strong, fierce, protective woman, she must first marry Drogo. In order for Illyrio to have the reason to give her the dragon eggs in the first place, she needs to get married, to necessitate him giving her an extravagant gift like that. Otherwise, she just remains in an abusive, submissive relationship with Viserys, and never even sees the dragon eggs. For that reason, it was vital for Dany to be beautiful. Unless @Walda is correct, and Drogo would have married her for her exotic appearance whether she was classically beautiful or not, but I... just have a hard time picturing that.
  6. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    Mostly, I agree that Sam... if he had been Sam... would probably have died under most Ironborn parents. The reason I say that it's hard to say what would have happened to Sam if he'd been born Ironborn, is that if he'd been born to anybody other than Randyll Tarly... he wouldn't have been Sam. Sam at 6 months old was no more cowardly than any other 6-month-old baby. I believe that he was born a boy with a sensitive nature, and would have become a studious, naturally gentle person in any event... but in every other respect, he was a blank slate who became what his parents and society made of him. If he'd been born a common Ironborn, he probably would have either grown up a farmer, or been apprenticed to a farmer. "Farmer" is a legitimate Ironborn occupation (according to Aeron's parable about the father who gives one child a sword and the other a sickle). Without the whole trauma of being forced to bathe in blood, there would have been nothing preventing Sam from becoming a perfectly acceptable farmer. If he'd been born to Victarion... you're probably right - Victarion wouldn't have understood his son and probably would have treated him much like Randyll did, which would have yielded similar results, and then Sam would have been killed. If he'd been born to Euron, he probably would have not only been killed, but sacrificed in some blood magic ritual. If he'd been born to Rodrik... Rodrik, as a fellow sensitive, naturally-gentle-natured, studious person, would have understood Sam. This is what I mean when I say that they are the same... they were born with roughly the same blank slate. Sam would still have been required to learn to fight, but a) Rodrik would have hired a Master at Arms who was patient with him, and b) Rodrik himself would have been patient. He wouldn't have gone from pride to anger to disgust before Sam had even turned 7. Because of that, Sam would have actually learned how to fight, because he wouldn't have had the severe psychological and emotional baggage specifically associated with fight training, getting in his way. He would never have enjoyed fighting, any more than Rhaegar did, or, I believe, any more than Rodrik does, but he would have learned what he needed to learn. If he'd been born to Aeron... I have no clue what Sam would have become. No clue whatsoever. If he'd been born to Balon... now, here's where it gets interesting. Balon wouldn't have understood Sam any better than Randyll did, or any better than Victarion would have, but I believe Sam is younger than Theon, so he wouldn't have had the same expectations placed on him in the first place. When it came time to ransom a child to Ned, however... assuming Ned would have given Balon a choice about which son to give as hostage (which seems to be the custom when there's more than one legitimate choice), Sam would have been sent to Winterfell instead of Theon. Sam would have thrived at Winterfell. Ned would have given him the same kindness that he gave Theon, but Sam doesn't have it in him to bear the same chip on his shoulder that Theon did. He would have trained alongside Robb and Jon, who would have been... well, they would have been boys, but Jon would have still understood Sam the same way he understood him for real at the Wall, and they probably would have become fast friends. Rodrik Cassel probably would have been somewhat frustrated with Sam, but wouldn't have placed the same expectations on him or done the traumatic things that he'd endured from the Tarly Masters at Arms, so he would eventually have learned.
  7. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    Fair point. TBH, Victarion is far from my favorite character, and the Ironborn plot is far from my favorite plotline, so I don't pay that close attention to those chapters, so I will take your word for it that it happened. I was mainly thinking of Asha's attitude toward Rodrik, which does seem to be loving tolerance of his "weird" habits, and Asha also seems to be very much a product of the Ironborn culture. It's hard to say what would have happened if Sam had been born Ironborn. All I can say with any degree of certainty, is that he wouldn't have been allowed to gain that much weight. I still believe Sam would have turned out a lot more like Rodrik, had he been allowed any self-esteem growing up, but who's to say whether he would have been allowed that self-esteem with the Ironborn? Who's to say he'd even still be Sam?
  8. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    I don't disagree... just one little correction: Sam wasn't a grown man. Not really. He was sent to the Watch on his 15th birthday. Which is still a child, given what we know now, and even by the standards of the day/ of the world of ASOIAF, it seems to be just on the cusp. Ned and Benjen both objected to Jon going to the Wall at nearly 15, and he's often referred to as a "boy." Robb as well, is often referred to as a "boy," and I'm guessing he'd turned 15 by the time the war started.
  9. Katerine459

    Cersei's thoughts about Joffrey's betrothal to Sansa

    Fair point, so let's do a compare and contrast. "Who sent the catspaw" was a question that was asked by several characters. Beginning with Catelyn, then Cassel, then Ned, and finally Tyrion (after he got falsely accused of it). It was a big mystery, that consumed a fairly good chunk of AGOT, and set off a huge chain of events that set the Starks and the Lannisters firmly against each other, and ended with Ned getting wounded, and later imprisoned and killed. It also set up Littlefinger's character very nicely. To not resolve it would have a) left readers unsatisfied, and b) left readers wondering if Tyrion was actively lying to the readers (which would have been a bit of a fourth-wall break). It also added a certain dimension to Joffrey, just in time for his death. I don't know about you, but when I read Tyrion's theory about why Joffrey would do this, it was almost the first time it really hit me that Joffrey was a child... who, like any child, wants to impress his father. Not that it stopped me from rejoicing when he died - he was still a total monster with way too much unchecked power to destroy other people's lives - but it added a depth that his character didn't have before, and a degree of pathos to his death. So.. yeah, it accomplished stuff. It resolved a mystery that not only was explicitly stated to the readers by several characters, but was a huge plot point in AGOT, and it deepened my view of Joffrey's character (and altered my view of Robert's as well) into more than just a cartoon villain, just in time for him to die. John's theory, OTOH, is a theory (not even one with an element of mystery) which was never explicitly stated to the readers - you have to do some significant reading between the lines to even see anything there. And all I can think of that it would do, is make Cersei even more unreliable a narrator, as well as even more irrational (Joffrey was going to have to marry somebody - who better than a completely malleable highborn child who could solidify the allegiance of the North?) Other than that... I can think of nothing.
  10. Katerine459

    Cersei's thoughts about Joffrey's betrothal to Sansa

    Question: If @John Suburbs is correct, does it break anything? Likewise, if he's wrong, does it break anything? Does it change anything at all? If John's correct, it makes Cersei an even less reliable narrator... but other than that, does it change anything? Does it change any living characters (or dead ones, for that matter)? Could it possibly have an effect on the plot in the future? How would anything be proven, and would any of the characters even care at this late date, when a) the main player is dead, and b) whatever the plan was, it didn't work, and c) Sansa certainly had much bigger things to worry about since then? Does it change anything about the world? Does it flesh out or coalesce the world at all, like the revelation about the relationship between Sybell Spicer and Maggy did? Does it do anything? If not, why would George sit on a mystery that only one reader even knows exists? And why can't we just let that reader have his own reading?
  11. Katerine459

    What if Daenerys was Ugly?

    If she'd been born ugly, I doubt she could have been sold to Khal Drogo (he wouldn't have taken her). If she'd been offered, and he wasn't pleased... the books don't state what would have happened. Without that, she probably would have stayed with Viserys, and stayed the timid girl she was at the beginning of the series, until either Illyrio hatched a different plan, or cast them out.
  12. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    Being "lazy" does not mean that you're unwilling to do, or resentful of, hard work? Since when? What does it mean, then? What I'm trying to understand, is exactly how many examples of hard work that Sam does willingly (rowing towards a place he dreads, taking care of the ravens, taking care of Aemon, walking to from the Fist to the Wall in heavy snow until his physical endurance gives out - which happens to others before it happens to him, researching day and night in the Vaults, etc), does it take to counter your accusation of laziness (which you seem to have supported solely on the fact that he missed one archery lesson when he lost track of time, and apparently didn't make it up, and that there's no mention of him volunteering himself for extra training). How do you define, "lazy," to justify slapping Sam with that label, when every single example you cited that involves an actual choice on his part (all 2 of them), has a far better-supported explanation (fear and severe emotional baggage)? Are you including the stuff that happened before Dickon was born (when Sam was between 4 and 7 years old)? This stuff? (I say Sam was between 4 and 7, because according to the Wiki, Sam was born in 283 AC, and Dickon was born sometime between 287 and 290 AC.) First of all, do you not think that this has a lasting effect on a person, especially when experienced at that young an age? Why would Sam volunteer himself for something he associates with humiliation, pain, failure, and his father going from being proud to being angry to being disgusted? Especially when it's, at most, a secondary duty in his particular job? Why does that make him lazy? Second... you mentioned that you consider Sam the laziest of the POV characters (excluding prologues). It's true that he's not Jon, Bran, Ned, Barristan, Dany, Jaime, Tyrion, Catelyn, Arianne, Victarion, Asha, or Brienne. (I'm missing a couple here; please assume that if I didn't mention them before, and not in the rest of the post, then they belong in the above list). No comparison is possible between Sam and Cersei, because they're just too different in every conceivable way... and not just because Sam is a decent person and Cersei is a malignant narcissist. They also had such different expectations, limitations, and goals in their lives, that it's impossible to compare them to say which one is "lazier." Too many variables. I would say that Theon is more lazy than Sam, pre-Reek (it becomes irrelevant after he becomes Reek, because then he's ruled by fear). He arrives at Pike with the expectation that he will just be given a prestigious command, without having to earn it, even though that's not how the Ironborn work, and is insulted when he's given a command that he feels is beneath him. Sam never does anything like that, and gratefully takes any job that doesn't involve stuff that has major fears and emotional baggage, and works diligently at it. Sansa, too. I admire her resilience starting in ACOK, but let's face it... she waits for stuff, including her own rescue, to come to her. I wouldn't necessarily say that's more "lazy" than Sam, but it's certainly not less. Then there's Arya. Now, Arya is one of my favorite characters, and I would never in a million years slap her with the label of, "lazy." But she spends much of AGOT doing exactly what you (falsely, at least post-AGOT... I'll cover when he was younger later in this paragraph) accuse Sam of doing: skiving off lessons that she's supposed to take in order to better become the person she was assigned to become at birth (in her case, a lady, and in his case, a lord), in favor of doing what she wants to do... what she's actually suited for. And she had far less to fear than Sam at the time... her same-sex parent "despairs" of Arya, but there's a huge difference between despair and disgust, and while she is humiliated by her shoddy needlework, she is not "cursed and caned, slapped and starved." Is she lazy? And before you mention that she's just a child in AGOT... she was 9. Sam was, at most, 7 when Dickon was born and Randyll gave up on him, and was younger than that when all of the above happened to him.
  13. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    You responded to everything except all the most important parts of my post. Hoping this was a mistake on your part and you accidentally hit the Submit button too soon. I'm off to bed.
  14. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    I'd edited while you were posting. Sorry about that... it's a... thing that I have. :/ I was sure I remembered some mention at some point of Sam being good at sums. It's nearly 1:00am where I am, so it's hard to recall, though. But even if not, the Iron Bank probably has good use for scribes, even ones who just speak the common tongue. And Sam is smart. He would have learned Braavosi. Probably would have enjoyed learning it. I'm glad you're acknowledging that Sam cares enough about Jon, Aemon, Gilly, and the Night's Watch in general to do his duty, and not even consider desertion as an option. But I wonder, then... why are you calling him lazy, again? Because I'd define this as the polar opposite of laziness. If he were lazy, he would have at least seriously considered it. Is it really only because he avoids training? (And why wouldn't his instinctive tendency be to avoid training when possible, when he associates training with being "cursed and caned, slapped and starved," paraded in women's clothes, and of course, associated it with constant and neverending failure, abject humiliation, and being viewed with disgust by parental figures? Even if you somehow believe that ongoing experience wouldn't be traumatic for a child -- a very strange belief, but never mind -- it still is, at the very minimum, hell on self-esteem.) It's also worth noting that waiting for Sam, at Oldtown, was a job he absolutely dreaded -- becoming a Maester. You acknowledged earlier that the idea of becoming a Maester was traumatic for him. It was also very close to Horn Hill, a prospect that he found equally terrifying. I wonder, then, if learning Braavosi and finding a job as a scribe or accountant would truly have been more objectively difficult for him than going to Oldtown and becoming a Maester. And then, after that, he gets to go back to the Wall, where there are Others. Speaking as someone with fears, usually anything that does not involve doing the thing you're afraid of, is easier than anything that does involve doing the thing you're afraid of. He chose to do hard work for passage to Oldtown, towards a job he dreaded, for the sake of his duty and the people he cared about. How is that lazy?
  15. Katerine459

    Sam in basic training

    i didn't ignore them, you were repeating yourself and i had already pointed out, he does not have a choice to not do them, it is either refuse and swim to oldtown. ...and you ignored them before, too. Why do you think I'm repeating them? The rowing was only one of the examples I listed. On a separate but related note, I did miss a relevant response before. Sorry about that. Here's what I'd intended to say before: In fact, Sam did have another choice that did not involve rowing to Oldtown. He could have stayed in Braavos, deserted the Night's Watch, and let Aemon die. That would actually have been the lazy thing to do. Dareon was doing it. Braavos isn't in Westeros, so as far as he knew, he wouldn't have been in significant danger for desertion in Braavos (he had no idea that Arya was killing people in Braavos for desertion). And it would have meant he could have an easier life than the life with the NW, which has horrible working conditions. He could have sold his services to the Iron Bank or the Sealord as a scribe or accountant, and lived in a comfortable climate at an easy and enjoyable job. He chose to work for passage for himself, two other adults, and a baby, to Oldtown, when he knew that a job he dreaded was at the end of the trip, instead of doing that.
×