IceSyckel

I don't know if it was shoddy or just rushed. I mean, if the producers told the writers to cover X amount of story in Y number of episodes, but the writers needed Y+10 episodes to do it well, then they're hardly at fault. I think the direction was great, and I think the writing was probably as good as it could have been given the time constraints. Had they two seasons to cover this amount of story, or even a few more episodes per season, then I think the writers would have done a much better job. They just cut too much in season 6 given how much happened.

It's Mace's army - not the king's. That makes it Mace's call. The king could start a war to remove them forcibly, but he could not make Mace's army leave without Mace's consent, so influence with the king is not relevant.

Once they were inside, I just don't believe Mace would let them leave, even on the QoT's counsel, while Margery and Loras' fate was uncertain. Granted, the QoT had a great deal of influence over Mace, but as a father myself I can tell you that this is not plausible. Once my army was inside the walls, they could have any trials they wanted, but my army would be staying until my kids were released. Period.

I'm not sure how they could've been made to leave so easily once they were inside... Tommen isn't exactly known for his brass balls.

I agree that it makes no sense and seems improbable, but the QoT's presence in Dorne for that meeting implies she had something to offer Dorne/the Sand Snakes in the way of military strength for the proposed alliance. Again, why the armies of Highgarden would have left Mace and Margery alone in KL for a trial is hard to figure. This scene was another example of the showrunners rushing through too much territory this season. Arya's assassination would be more plausible had there been at least some foundation laid for it rather than having her teleport to the Twins from Braavos. She certainly had the skills to get hired on as a servant of the Freys. She certainly had the skill to disguise herself, and she certainly could've made that pie easily enough (which I much prefer to a crossbow - that's Cartman style vengeance at its finest, making Frey eat his family). It just seems like a lot to have transpired off screen when last we saw Arya for more than a second she was in Braavos...

Yeah, many questions linger, I think, because they rushed to cover too much material in one season. It was a great season, but I don't know why they couldn't take more time to cover all the details. I guess the army might've left with the QoT, though no explanation is given for why that might be...

I'm not saying you're wrong, but what's the significance? No one doubts that Jon is either: (1) Ned's nephew; or (2) Ned's son. So, it would not be unusual for Jon to look like Ned regardless of whether his Stark blood came from Ned or Lyanna. Also, it would not be unusual if he did not look like Ned in that of Ned's other children, only Arya favors him. I don't think the resemblance is probative of anything, really.

I was actually enjoying their dispute, and I guess I was just hoping for a bigger payoff, though that does not diminish my anticipation for the resolution of the larger scale conflicts. On the whole I enjoyed this season, even if it did feel like it was a little hurried/rushed (in terms of pace, not production). I don't expect them to wait for GRRM to finish a book, but neither should they rush the pace to the point where Varys practically teleports between entire continents...

You're both correct, of course.. I guess knowing this would have been enough in a books, but I would have liked to see this play out more on screen in the show. Seems like it all happened so fast, as if rushed, that I didn't get time to really enjoy the resolution of Margery's scheming.

While I don't mind them telling us what will happen and then having it actually happen (maybe that's not subtle enough to be "foreshadowing," per se, but I like the consistency of them not jerking us around just for the sake of jerking us around), I do nevertheless agree a LOT with your Problem #1. It's too deus ex machina (or whatever) to insert a solution at the last second so often even if there was some telegraphing for it. It's one thing for it to happen every now and then but quite another for it to happen 3x or more in the same freking season. Your Problem #2, well, I don't have an issue with that. ASOIAF, and GoT by extension, are adapted from various occurences in real-life history. History repeats itself. Now, I agree that with Dany not burning, well that one is not historically derived and seems to be an overuse of the novelty, but what bothers me more about that it that GRRM has said she is not fire-proof and that the first occurrence was a special case. It is less special each time it happens again, no?

Yeah - it feels a bit like false advertising. They certainly made it seem like Margery had another grand plan to unveil, but perhaps she was only scheming for Loras' release and that thread was resolved when the HS screwed her. Yeah Loras was released, but then he turns to the HS of his own free will and sacrifices his lands and titles. That's all well and good, but it seemed like Margery was playing a larger game, and I'm left thinking "That was it?"

I suppose that is the resolution of all the scheming, but it's not the pay-off I'd hoped for either. I mean, Margery schemed, Cersei schemed, and they competed in the Game of Thrones, but Margery lost before we could see her full plan, and so that is unfulfilled. If Cersei was to win, then so be it: I can accept that. What I cannot accept is that Margery died before putting all the plans they foreshadowed into motion, so we're left wondering what the hell she was up to. Why not show us and then have Cersei win? Also, Cersei "winning" over Margery is somewhat depressing since we know how Cersei's end will come courtesy of Maggy, though I supposed that outcome was necessary to advance the story. Also, Cersei v. Dany is perhaps more interesting than Margery v. Dany.

Your point is well taken, though I suspect even if they had run when Margery warned them, it would not have mattered. I don't think those inside the sepct could have outrun the wildfyre in that limited span of time, as I would wager from the cloud over KL that many OUTSIDE the sept were killed as well. Still, it would have been better to leave it to chance that at least some had escaped.

I agree with you here, and this is the flipside of my R+L=J concerns. Instead of a lack of foreshadowing for a major event contrary to the gravamen of the evidence, Margery's fate actually represents a lot of foreshadowing that never developed into anything significant. Example: the flower drawing she gave her grandmother, as you referenced. What did that accomplish? I suppose it got the QoT to avoid the trial, which setup her trip to Dorne, but there were other, simpler and less time-consuming ways to arrive at the same end. I feel like the show wasted a lot of time on her character with foreshadowing events that never came to pass.

As I said, opinions can vary, but you're talking semantics at any rate. The point we're discussing is whether it would be convoluted and/or intricate for the showrunners to give us such clear evidence of R+L=J in this finale and then take it away next season with some sudden revelation or development not foreshadowed in previous episodes. What is your thought on this?

Actually, I would dispute that the series has been convoluted to date, though any fantasy series might be described as "silly" depending on the perspective of the audience member in question. It's not like flame-breathing dragons are overly serious subject matter, and some of the plots in ASOIAF are similar to bad soap opera plots (though executed far better imho - e.g., incest, adultery, etc.). However, where some see convoluted, I see intricate. If something is sufficiently foreshadowed, then it is intricate (in my opinion); else, it is just convoluted. That said, I am sure opinions would vary.

That is a good point. The fact that any part of the conversation between Lyanna and Ned was inaudible to the audience does clearly signify a desire on the part of the showrunners to screw with the audience, either because they're baiting us to falsely believe R+L=J or possibly because they want to keep lingering some sense of mystery to the R+L=J theory even if it is ultimately proven correct. Either way, I think it's fairly malicious on their part (since they haven't given reasonable evidence for an alternative explanation). TL'DR: either R+L=J at this point OR there is a really lame-arse alternative explanation for why Lyanna was bleeding in that tower under the watch of members of the King's Guard. Think about it: is there another explanation that isn't overly convoluted and silly?

Certainly it is possible that the showrunners are torturing us with a clever scheme to make us THINK that R+L=J when in reality something else was said. However, at this point, that would anger fans of the books and the show alike for no appreciable reason. It's one thing to cleverly trick your audience into believing a false solution to a mystery when you have left breadcrumbs for the real explanation, but since they clearly led us to believe R+L=J without offering (in the show) clear clues for a plausible alternative, it would just be poor storytelling on their part. It would be jerking us around just to jerk us around. At that point, they might as well say "The Butler Did It" and end the series. Besides: what else would Lyanna make Ned promise to keep secret for fear of Robert's reaction? Possibly a secret marriage or an affair alone would explain it, but if that secret marriage/affair didn't result in Jon's birth, then why all the blood and nurses? I'm sure Ser Arthur Dayne didn't let harm befall his prisoner.

That's unlikely: Lyanna warned Ned of Robert's reaction. If it was Robert's child, then Lyanna would have no cause to fear Robert's reaction. The only question in my mind is whether Jon is still a bastard or whether Lyanna and Rhaegar had secretly wed (9ish months before Ned rescued her)?

So how does Arya and Varys travel the entire realms of Westeros and Essos in the blink of an eye and Jaime makes it back to KL but Brienne and Pod can't make it to Winterfell? Now that's what I call a non-sequitur, lol. I'm stretching to figure our why you quoted my post to ask this question? I agree, though, that the travel is nuts. Yes, you're supposed to "suspend disbelief" and "TV travel happens off-screen," but this was too much too fast - especially Varys. It's hard when a man is in mid-Essos at one scene and southern-Westeros the next... That would be like Luke being on Dagobah in one scene and then, two scenes later, fighting Vader on the Death Star in front of the Emperor - it just leaves too much to off-scene occurrence.

Well, she also fed a dude his family, so ... there's that Granted, she used a pie instead of chili, so there is a distinction in methodology to be sure.

New fan theory: Arya Stark is secretly of House Cartman (whose patriarch is Eric).