Posts posted by Blazfemur
The Origins Of The Night's King:
So there were these two brothers, right? The King In The North, and his younger brother. This is years and years after The Long Night and has nothing to do with it. The debacle with the Barrow King Dustin happens, and the Barrow King awards his daughter to the King In The North. The younger brother falls for her. She falls for him. The King In The North finds out, perhaps even catching them in the act (pregnancy/Stark line descent??).
Unable to kill his own brother and be named kinslayer, The King In The North sends his younger brother to the wall (with his direwolf), where he earns himself a place. Winter comes. The weather gets harsh, food grows scarce, and the Others begin to show themselves. The watch's numbers are dwindling, and in a desperate life or death attempt, young Stark offers and volunteers to go out in search of the children of the forest, knowing he may not return. The watch rejoice, and exclaim that he's the last hero among us, all we have left.
Younger Stark, the last hero, travels in search of the children, on horseback, with 12 other brothers, and his direwolf (dog). They all fall, one by one, and eventually, The Others find him and descend on him. About to die, he offers a desperate brokering of peace. The Others, kill him not, but listen to what he has to say. They strike a bargain, perhaps even bestow upon him the Ice Gift (as it can be transferred, apparently), or perhaps even give him a blade of their own to solidify this fragile pact (Ice).
Younger Stark returns, and he is commended for his actions, the attacks would have stopped, and name him, the 13th Lord Commander and thus, his reign begins. 13 years passes. But something always bothered 13th Lord Commander Stark, now wielding Ice. What became of that Barrow King's daughter? She's married his brother, The King In The North, maybe they even have a child thats 13 by now with questionable parentage. Daughter of a Barrow King, hmm. If Sansa Stark came into power, her nickname or monicker might be the "wolf queen." Daenerys, perhaps would be known as the "Dragon Queen/Mad Dragon Queen." What would a Barrow King's daughter's monicker be? I wouldn't think it so outrageous to believe "Corpse Queen" would be a great monicker for the daughter of a Barrow King.
13th Lord Commander Stark leaves the watch and ventures southward, perhaps to see the woman he fell for, or, his potential child. The watch have been fighting off wildlings for years at this point, and when The King In The North finds out his exiled brother is blatantly disobeying his exile and making a return, the King and King Beyond The Wall form a temporary alliance to smash the 13th Lord Commander when he arrives. It works out for the King In The North, as his family and lands wouldnt be threatened by his brother any longer, and it helps The King Beyond The Wall because getting rid of a Lord Commander that's been a thorn in their side for years is just too good to pass up.
The 13th Lord Commander is overwhelmed by the joined forces, his forces fail, this is where winter fell, but slips away. This causes a rift in the Night's Watch, as it makes them look absolutely TERRIBLE. It also sully's the Stark name, the actions of a former Stark-turned-Lord Commander that should have abandoned his previous life. The King In The North and the Night's Watch make an agreement: exile his younger brother from the Watch, to meet a fate worse than instant-death execution, and strike his name from the records. He will live out the rest of his life on his own, without any faction to help him. The watch strikes his name from their records, in accordance with The King In The North's request, keeping the Stark name clean, and they villainize the 13th Lord Commander, twisting the tale to make them seem the protagonist. "He forswore his vows," "slept with the Corpse Queen (who may just have blue eyes, pale complexion, maybe even albino like Bloodraven)."
The 13th Lord Commander ventures north, beyond the wall, and into the darkness, taking with him his blade, Ice, which is not in fact lost, but being wielded by him. He joins the only faction left that would have him ("I forged a pact with you, and I intend to keep it" mentality), and vows vengeance on those that have wronged him. Vows to break past the wall, smash the watch that betrayed him and his name, and go to Winterfell once more, perhaps it's crypts, where the Barrow King's daughter, Queen Dustin, (perhaps even their own child) is buried.
And he shall be named, The Night's King, woe to those that stand before him. Ever-living, immortal, he still serves his Night's Oath, taking Craster's babies, fathering none, taking only the boys, so there are no women or females to marry, and living as an outcast, nomadic, ever moving for Winterfell, holding no lands. Loving, and laying with, the Corpse Queen, before he swore his vows (technically).
All this is speculation until proven Otherwise, but it humanizes the story, supports that there are in fact no such thing as female Others (dont get yourself in a bunch, the nonexistence of a female Other is also just speculation), and that everything else was Night's Watch heresay as there is no one to contradict anything.
This supports TLH=TNK, as a Stark, and also where the original Ice is located (in his grasp to this day). This doesnt take into consideration BtB by itself.
This would also make 13th Lord Commander a Neverborn, if youre familiar with the terminology.
Points of note:
Old Nan - "All crows are liars."
"There was once nobility in the watch."
Bran thought old nan was confused -- she always called everyone in her stories Bran. (This implies the stories of the last hero, and the night's king, but may also hint at bran the builder)
Lady Dustin's interest in descending the Winterfell crypts with Theon (possible ancestry)
Per Barbrey Dustin wiki:
Before leaving the crypts, Barbrey and Theon discover that swords are missing from the tombs, including that of Brandon Stark, her lover from her youth. (Possible symbolic postshadowing??? A Lady Dustin, and a Stark, and a missing sword.......sound familiar????)
Aerion died drinking wildfire.
YET HIS CHILDREN LIVE ONONONONONONONONONON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Lyarra Stark, Neds mother. (The Wiki doesn't even state she is dead)?
- Willas Tyrell
WOW really? thats creepy.
and willas is currently training under bloodraven
shes accounted for though, she went whereever whores go.
i cant believe Sandor wasnt added to the OP though, or Jojen.
Cannibal the dragon?
Jojen Reed. and no, i dont buy into paste
haha, watch me be cute:
Sandor Clegane ;)
Gerion Lannister, searching for Brightroar
13th Lord Commander. Exiled and never heard from again (yet) ;)
Basically (cut and pasted):
Before I begin, let me just state this topic was started out of the "Others Being Misogynist" thread, it kinda got off topic, so I wanted to place my thoughts here out of respect for the original poster.
That being said, a LOT of this topic is heresay, not a lot is known about The Others, and all knowledge we have to go on is from word-of-mouth characters in-book, and the Game Of Thrones prologue. This topic is meant for constructive theoretical thinking, and deconstructive, with what little information we have to go on.
This isn't a thread for sarcasm, or useless pointless disagreement: back up your statements with facts, and realize this is a subject that not only would be controversial according to what we know so far, but attempts to focus on the hints given, rather than how the story is progressed, and a lot on how the story may progress. There are theories that are in fact crackpot contained here, however they are supported by actual fact. In my eyes, all theories are crackpot until theyre read on paper or seen onscreen.
I give you, The LB Theory:
A few facts that we know:
-HBO slipped up on the reveal on the 'leader' of the Others, confirming him as the Night's King. Don't think they'd deviate something this large, from the books.
-In THAT scene, there were The Night's King, and 12 Others around him.
-The Night's King, was the 13th Lord Commander, of the Night's Watch.
-It can be debated, that the previous 12 MAY, or MAY NOT, be the 12 Lord Commanders before him
-It may not be debated, that there was once a Last Hero, and he had 12 companions, it MAY be debated, that there is some connection here.
-It may NOT be debated, that Ned and Benjen Stark, told Jon, that there was "once" nobility in the Night's Watch
-It may NOT be debated, that along with volunteers, The Night's Watch also contains liars, murderers, rapists, and poachers, and those that may or may not have committed treason
-It may NOT be debated, that Sam told Jon, that all records regarding the Night's King (and those before him), were deliberately and purposely destroyed, leaving us to go on the "word-of-mouth" from the 14th Lord Commander and then forth.
-Fact: There was no female Other in that circle of 13, in THAT episode (and only that one that we have to go on). There's also been, no evidence, book or otherwise, of a female Other, there have been female Wights (dead bodies brought back to life, given the "ice gift," as i'll hereby call it), but no female Others (living bodies, given the "ice gift") (UPDATED, see, Final Thought)
The possibility that The Night's King, & The 12 STILL uphold the basic tennets of The Night's Oath:
-I shall hold no lands: As far as we know, The Others may, or may not, be nomadic (I support that they are, however THAT episode demonstrated an ice-altar in which TNK Turned Craster's boy into an Other, as well as what appeared to be a crag-like dwelling) (the way around this, is that even The Night's Watch, hold lands, i.e. The Wall, it's castles/forts, and even The Gift was up for inheritance) If we go strictly on book knowledge, they own no lands other than dwell, north beyond the wall.
-I shall father no children: The Others as far as we know, have some sort of agreement or "contract" (debatable) with Craster, and the wildlings north of the wall. According to Craster's stipulations, he keeps his daughters, he gives away his sons, and he lives undisturbed. By The Others TAKING Craster's children and, according to that episode Turning the boys into Others, they're not "fathering" anyone -- they're TAKING them.
-I shall take no wives: The Others take Craster's BOYS, and Turn his BOYS, leaving no females to wife. We do NOT know, if there were females taken from the other wildlings to uphold compliance with them (Old Nan stated to Bran, wildlings would sell their daughters, she specifically states daughters, but a common theme is rumors can be false and "words are wind")
-I shall live and die at my post: Wights are dead. Others, are living. If The Others are in fact following The Night's Oath, then they havent died, and are STILL serving it right now..
Conclusion: It MAY, be possible, The Others, or at least the 13, are the Old Night's Watch, prior to The Night's King's exile, and continued through him and wildling children-turned-Others. If The Others are rooted in being wronged, and TNK seeks vengeance, he's turning Craster's boys into soldiers, and forming his own possible "Night's Watch." I believe the secret tothe questions, why boys, why craster's, why wildlings, lies in the blood. I think First Men blood, is the common ingredient. I think it's what activates, and can make someone an Other. This, is a theory. This would also make anyone WITH First Men blood, a potential candiate for the Ice Gift.
-Also: It's rumored, yes, RUMORED, that Bran The Builder ALLEGEDLY built The Wall. I have no problems believing he built the castles, and forts. In fact, in Catelyn I in AGOT, she says "allegedly." She also recollects, in the godswood with Ned that those eyes on the heart tree may have seen him lay the first BRICK (not ICE).
-The Wall, is made of Ice, along with castles/forts of brick
-Ice, is an element The Others seem to manipulate, it's their element, and where ever they go, the cold follows
Conclusion: The Others originally built the wall, the reasoning is debatable (perhaps, to keep everyone else OUT of their realm)
The Only Possible Way I See Jon Returning:
-Old Nan tells Bran a lot of people believed The Night's King was a Bolton, but she's sure he was a Stark.
-The current grudge in the north, is Jon Snow & Ramsay Snow, two bastards, same surname, and both hold interests in winterfell. (Old Nan's irony? Foreshadowing? Or prediction for the NEXT Night's King...)
-I forget if the Boltons have old northern first-men blood or not, but the Starks, do.
-At the Wall, Jon switched Mance Rayder's baby, with Craster's baby, and sent Sam off with Mance's "kingsblood" baby
-At the Wall, Craster's last baby, is thought to have kingsblood (the thought is that he's still Mance's), when in actuality, he's the last baby that "belongs" to The Others.
-Melisandre is at The Wall, and Melisandre believes Craster's baby, has kingsblood which is said to power her magic
Conclusion: Melisandre, could very well be sacrificing a baby that "belongs" to the Others. If there is any pact, contract or anything there, something may go wrong, with her ritual... or, there may be some Other intervention ;) Jon may not be, well, Jon. In fact, he might have a new eye color..
The Night's Watch's Turn To Darkness And Corruption:
-The Night's King was said to be exiled for being with a female Other
-There have been ZERO female Others mentioned, or seen, on episodes or books, and the only one we know of is the Nights Queen, via word of mouth of the 14th Lord Commander and from him through time
-All histories remember, have been purposely destroyed, so it's strictly whatever he said, happened
-The Others right now, appear to be holding the basic tennets of The Night's Oath
-Conclusion: There is no female Other. The 14th Commander overthrew The Night's King, with his brothers, and forced him out, erased all records of anything that contained information that may contradict anything he said, and made up the story of The Night's King's female Other for his reasoning. This is based primarily off of the facts, FACTS, that there have been NO female Others read about, or SEEN in episodes, AND the fact that all the children taken from Craster are MALE. the debate can be, we dont know if the other wildlings sacrificed females, or if Old Nan had any truth to her rumors at all.
Other Possibility: When he was exiled, he went north, where he inevitably met his doom with The Others, except, if he was a Stark or Bolton, he had First Men blood, and ended up getting Turned.
Stipulations That Would Need To Be, For Any Of This To Happen:
- If The 13 are the lord commanders, they would all need to have first men blood
-Craster, and Craster alone, is the only one that needs first men blood (all his children get more potent, with each generation he incests with), though they would NEVER be pure first men blood (the FIRST mother had to come from somewhere, it's rumored she lived in that town they visited when they went on the great ranging. or... hmm, was that his mother, i forget, it's been awhile)
Final conclusion: The Others, have a purpose, and that purpose is vengeance. The want nothing to do with Westeros. They want what was theirs -- the giant block of their power, The Wall. If they wanted Westeros, they couldve went around it in the bay of ice, or the bay of seals (Patchface: i will lead it! we will march into the sea and out again!...) It's the Night's Watch that wronged THEM, the night's watch took their wall, built on it, and claimed it was theirs through bran the builder. Stipulation: furthermore, the cotf and the Others are enemies. to prevent retaking, they built the weirwood door and fused their magic with it, similar to the one around Bloodraven's cave (cannot pass unless with a night's watch member). However, what no one realizes, The Night's King IS a member of the Night's Watch... If not normal Others, HE can pass. If my theories of him continuing The Old Night's Watch are accurate, they can ALL pass without a problem.
Separate Crackpot Theory (Disregard, It Means Nothing And Is Outside Of This Post): The Wall will get destroyed. The Night's King is a Stark, and longs to be at rest in Winterfell's crypts. The Wall, is stopping him. Furthermore crackpot, his Night's Queen is locked/buried in Winterfell's Crypts, and that's why the struggle. That's why the "warmth," and why catelyn in Catelyn I AGOT says (paraphrase) by the godswood where Ned is polishing Ice, "winterfell's godswood, unlike riverrun's, was surrounded in decay." The Queen, is locked, beneath the earth, in a weirwood cell beneatht he weirwood tree, and she's absorbing the life, and cold, to sustain her (thus causing, the decay, and "warmth" of winterfell). Once The Night's King is laid to rest in winterfell's crypts, Jon will become The Night's King In The North, AS, an Other.
Final Thought: The secret of activating human, to Other, lies in the blood. There's a reason they choose wildlings, and Craster. I believe it's first men blood, which flows in Stark veins, and most of the houses in the north that old nan mentions to Bran. There's a clue there, in that chapter, and she's telling Bran how the Others make Others. My opinion is that Craster had First Men blood, and that it's that same blood, that's a catalyst in activating the Other, in someone. That's why he was so protective over his daughters, because the blood must be as pure as can be, and that's the contract the Others had with Craster, and the other wildlings, that shared this blood bond. The secret to why and how the Craster debacle happened, lies in the purity of the blood. He protected his daughters for a reason. If any one of them got pregnant with someone else,that didnt have first men blood, and that baby was taken, the baby might not have turned Other, and then they would have come back to him for a reason why. One can further speculate, that those without FIrst Men Blood, turn wight. If any of that scene, the 13, is accurate, than not all of the 12 other lord commanders were alive, and yet, they are Other. Yet, if they had First Men blood, this relieves that stipulation. The secret isn't living body=Other; dead body=wight; the secret is First Men blood=Other, everyone else, living OR dead=Wight. Otherwise, they wouldnt have been so meticulous in choosing who would have received the Ice Gift. The common elements that tie int he mysteries of The Others, The Night's King, and wights, as well as Craster's children = First Men Blood
A Compendium of Theories v.2
in General (ASoIaF)
Theon/Lady Dustin's descent into Winterfell crypts, wasnt just dialogue, but fit an empty hole with plot.
It's stated that a Barrow King of old, warred with the Starks. The Stark's won, and to maintain compliance and peace, The Barrow King awarded his daughter to them. I'd theorize, Brandon The Breaker won this prize.
Lady Dustin explains to Theon, that she had a thing for Eddard's brother, Brandon Stark.
The idea is, the Barrow King's daughter was a Dustin. Lady Dustin of old, daughter of a barrow king, could inherit the monicker (like Sansa=wolf queen; Daenerys=dragon queen, etc) Corpse Queen.
A Dustin, fell for a Brandon, and things go awry (both timelines). There's also a missing sword in both (Ice, in aeons past, and one of the iron blades of the now)