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Lee-Sensei

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  1. 1) Do we know that? Harwin only says that Robert gave Ned credit for the victory of the Battle of the Bells. We never hear that people were constantly giving him credit for Ned’s victories and the fact that he admits that it was Ned’s victory is just more evidence that he’s not taking credit For other people’s victories. And I never said that he commanded on all of those islands. Read it again. Stannis took a Great Wyk, Barristan took Old Wyk and Robert took Pyke. Where’s the evidence that the bulk of their forces were defeated already? The Iron Fleet is about 100 ships with around 100 men on each ship. They also have around 400 longships carrying around 30 men on each. 2) I already knew about both of those Generalsand Napoleon and Nobunaga are famous for winning victories while incredibly outnumbered. That’s just not all that they’re famous for. 3) Do you have a shred of evidence that he’s a bad general? Saying that someone else might have been planning his battles Nd he just took credit for them just doesn’t wash. 4) In fact, that does mean that he was in command. For goodness sakes, when Robert gives credit to Ned for the Battle of the Bells you consider it Ned’s victory. You don’t say that someone else was planning it secretly and Ned took credit for it. But when Zroberts given credit for the victory at the Trident... not just by Ned, but by many people including George R.R. Martin, you give someone else credit. 5) I’m sorry, but this is ridiculous. The ability to move an army quickly and defeat enemies in detail isn’t the mark of a great general? Any general can do it? Do you speak from experience? Robert manages to retreat in good order and continue fighting. Jaime gets captured and ends up having his army destroyed. Randyll Tarly won a minor and indecisive clash. Robb one a strategic victory that ended up destroying the second largest force that the Lannisters had and capturing a major hostage. There’s no “perhaps” about it. They were outnumbered and Rhaegars troops were fresh. Do you have any evidence that they were just talking about numbers when they said that Robert would have crushed the Lannisters s or the Martells? A handful of my stuff is from Stannis’ northern campaign and Stannis wasn’t mocking Horpe first believing in a Roberts greatness. He was shutting him down, because he lives in a Roberts shadow and he doesn’t want to be told to be more like his brother again, although he admits later on that he has to be more like Robert if he wants to win. We aren’t equal here. I have evidence and you have speculation.
  2. 1) I don’t know what else to say. We don’t know Justin Masseys age, but many people that were around Robert during his wars seem to have a high opinion of his generalship. Stannis was in command at Great Wyk while Barristan took a portion of their forces and landed at Old Wyk and Robert made landings at Pyke. This isn’t speculation. We’re told that Robert was in command at these places and we’re never given any evidence that someone else did the planning like with Mace Tyrell. Do you have one quote indicating that Robert was taking credit for the plans of other people? We know that it’s true for Mace Tyrell, because we’re told this multiple times. Is there even one example of someone saying that Robert was taking credit for other people’s victories? 2) Except that many of these generals do become famous like Napoleon during the Six Day Campaign or Nobunaga in the Battle of Okehazama. Being able to win while horribly outnumbered is generally a mark of competence, which is probably why George put it in there and why Stannis uses it as an example for Jon. 3) Maybe, but that’s entirely speculative. The only defeat of a Roberts that’s ever brought up is Ashford. Given that his record as far as we know is overwhelmingly victorious, chances are that in those battles that haven’t been mentioned yet, he was still winning a lot more than losing. 4) The burden of proof is on you. Ned says that Robert was in command and gives Robert credit for the victory. We know that there was more to the Battle than two armies meeting on the Trident. Do you have any evidence that someone else made a plan and Robert was just following it like with Randall Tarly and Mace Tyrell? 5) It really isn’t. I’ve provided plenty of evidence that Robert is viewed as a good general. He was famous rather than infamous for his forced marches and midnight rides. He won three battles in a single day at Ashford by defeating the armies in detail before they could unite against him. He was able to retreat in good order at Ashford. He would win battles at odds worse than 5 to 1. He was insanely charismatic and able to win men over to his cause and inspire loyalty in them. He commanded a battle weary and outnumbered force at the Trident to win his Throne. He made landings on Pyke and conquered the seat of House Greyjoy. Ned feels sure that if Robert went to war with a Tywin, that Tywin would be crushed. Barristan was sure that if the Martells went to war with Robert, he’d have crushed them like he crushed the Greyjoys. Stannis’ men constantly praise him and Jon considers him a competent military leader. Stannis says that if Renly had joined him they could have won a crushing victory over the Lannisters that would have even impressed Robert. I can go on, but I don’t have to. Your argument is that we don’t know. Maybe someone else planned his battles and he just took credit for them. It’s not very convincing. If Robert was taking credit for other people’s plans, Stannis would have said as much and he certainly wouldn’t have used him as an example to aspire to.
  3. George talks about it here. https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Siege_of_Storms_End
  4. What do you mean while he was fostering in the Vale? Robert had left the Vale at least by 277 or 278. The period between his parents dying and the end of his Rebellion would be about 6 or 7 years. Let’s say that Justin Massey was about 10 in 278. He could realistically have been with Robert through that entire period and have received a knighthood by the time that he was coronated in 284 at 16. The rest just has no evidence supporting it. There’s no evidence that Robert would have had no part in the planning of his landings in Pyke or that someone else was responsible for it. Robert is the one constantly given credit for defeating the Greyjoys and taking Pyke, he received a military education and he has an overwhelmingly victorious military record. I said it before, but I’ll say it again. It seems like you want it to be the case that winning battles why outnumbered 5 to 1 isn’t that big of a deal. Why do you think that any moderately capable general could do it? And why don’t we hear about anyone else winning at these terrible odds? I’ve already posted loads of evidence from the books that he’s a good general. I don’t know what else to say. You’re saying that charisma won’t win you battles forever, but he did win all of his battles except for one and he has two victorious wars under his belt. Ned says that a Captains voice in battle were as important as his arm. Jon Arryn taught him and Robert that and Ned says that Robert was in command there. There was more to their victory than two armies meeting on the Trident. Wouldn’t the burden of proof be on you? For almost every one of those battles, Robert is called their leader. If someone else was planning his battles and responsible for his victories, why isn’t that mentioned in the text like it is for Mace Tyrell?
  5. 1) Maybe she shouldn’t have married him, right? There were plenty of people that wanted to. Instead she chose to abort his children, get pregnant with her brothers kids and then put them in the line of succession out of spite (which also put her bastards in danger and now they’re unlikely to survive until the end of the series). What I’m saying is that she chose to marry him and Robert has a right to have children and pass off his belongings to his own kids instead of his wife’s bastards. She wanted to be Queen, so she married him. What she did was evil. 2) Robert gave Stannis Dragonstone. He wanted to pass his Kingdom on to his own children. He couldn’t, because his wife chose to abort his children and get pregnant with her brothers kids. 3) Do we even know that? Cersei threatened to kill his children if he brought them around (even though she was raising her bastards in his home). Mya lives at the Gates of the Moon, Edric lived at Storms End and Gendry had his apprentice fee payed for. It’s implied that Varys was behind it. Why would Varys pay Gendry apprentice fee? Maybe Robert asked him to see that his bastards were looked after or maybe he did it for some mysterious other reason. When he’s dying, his last words we’re asking Ned to look after his children though, so it’s very possible that he wanted them to be looked after. 4) Cersei did know that her bastards weren’t Roberts as you’ve said. She did it deliberately. And not knowing that a kid isn’t your husbands because you’re sleeping around is no excuse. At the very least, they know that it’s a possibility because they weren’t being faithful. Raising a child is time consuming work. Most likely, victims of paternity fraud will want to spend that time on their own children. It doesn’t matter if it’s not the children’s fault. It’s not the fathers fault either. It’s the wife’s fault for being unfaithful and deceiving him. There’s a difference between having step kids, adopted kids and paternity fraud. If the fathers had known the truth about these kids, they’d have probably never acted like parents in the first place. Does their consent not matter? Did Robert not have a right to know that he was raising inbred bastards after they fought a 2 year war against a Mad King born of incest? Don’t you think that he’d have liked to know that? It might explain a bit of Joffreys behaviour. 6) That’s actually not what Ned says. He says that Robert doted on Mya long after he’d lost interest in her mother. Long enough for her to remember him, so about 3 years. Mya was born in 279. 3 years later was the start of a Roberts Rebellion and then he became King, so he couldn’t move around a lot. That’s not to say that he was a great parent, because I don’t think that he was. However, this is a distraction from the paternity fraud issue. 7) These are two different issues. Yes. Being a deadbeat dad is a bad thing, but it’s a different sin from paternity fraud. This especially true, because Cersei did it intentionally. We don’t know much about Roberts bastards. We only know 4 of them for sure. More over, he wasn’t a deadbeat dad to Cersei’s kids. They were living the life of royalty in his castle, because his wife decided to try and end his line. Well. I agree with that much. It’s always utterly bizarre to watch people downplay paternity fraud.
  6. Imagine actually believing this. Honestly, I don’t even see an argument for Roose Bolton, Jeor Mormont, Loras Tyrell, Jaime, Kevan and Tyrion. None of them have records that even compare to Roberts.
  7. 1) Robert was a womanizer before the Rebellion too. I don’t see why he’d have to pick that up in Kings Landing. As for the Greyjoy Rebellion, amphibious operations and sieges are among the most difficult tasks that an army and navy can be asked to perform. Planning the time of the landings, deciding the beachheads, moving ships full of men, weapons, grain, horses etcetera to Pyke. And on and on. He took the capital of the Iron Islands too, so it’s likely that his forces faced the fiercest opposition. 2) I don’t think so. Assuming that he got his army destroyed is an assumption. Me saying that he was a capable general famous for the speed of his armies, his charisma, his ability to win over enemies and winning against gratuitously long odds is pretty much established. 3) I disagree. I think that it does point to him being a great general. 4) George has said that the Battle of the Trident was more complicated than that. Do you have any evidence that someone else was responsible for winning his battles, besides him?
  8. That’s just an incredible position to take. Cersei had no trouble taking moon tea to abort Roberts children. She deliberately passed off her inbred bastards as his kids. And yes, paternity fraud is far worse than male adultery. The idea that a woman can cheat on her husband, get pregnant, pass off her other mans child as his and get two decades worth of child support is disgusting and evil. Men that walk out in those situations are 100% justified. Robert didn’t treat his wife’s kids like crap either. He hit Joffrey once for cutting open a pregnant cat.
  9. I’m not sure about that, but even if he was Roberts squire after the Rebellion, he probably would have seen Robert take command during the Greyjoy Rebellion. At the very least, he’s likely older than Asha and she was about 13. Squires have gone into battle with the knights, Lords and Kings that they’ve served around that age. Besides, we’ve seen people from other regions serve closely under General from other regions. Theon sat on Robbs war council and Robar Royce sat on Renly’s. Thats an assumption, but we also hear that there were battles in the Dornish marches and the Reach that we haven’t heard yet. Robert went back to Storms End after winning the three battles at Summerhall. "My brother had a gift for inspiring loyalty. Even in his foes. At Summerhall he won three battles in a single day, and brought Lords Grandison and Cafferen back to Storm's End as prisoners. He hung their banners in the hall as trophies. Cafferen's white fawns were spotted with blood and Grandison's sleeping lion was torn near in two. Yet they would sit beneath those banners of a night, drinking and feasting with Robert. He even took them hunting. 'These men meant to deliver you to Aerys to be burned,' I told him after I saw them throwing axes in the yard. 'You should not be putting axes in their hands.' Robert only laughed. I would have thrown Grandison and Cafferen into a dungeon, but he turned them into friends. Lord Cafferen died at Ashford Castle, cut down by Randyll Tarly whilst fighting for Robert. Lord Grandison was wounded on the Trident and died of it a year after. My brother made them love him.” Receiving the same education as Ned doesn’t mean that they’d have the same abilities. It means that he should know what he’s doing as should most noblemen. Moreover, the fact that he has a record of successes, indicates that he learned the lessons. Sure we can. These victories are credited to Robert by everyone including Ned. The one victory that wasn’t credited to Robert was the Battle of the Bells. If someone else was responsible for his victories, why wouldn’t we have heard it by now like with Mace Tyrell. You pointed out that Stannis mentioned that Mace Tyrell took credits for Randyll Tarlys victory at Ashford. If Robert was really taking credit for other people’s victories, wouldn’t he have said as much?
  10. Maybe, but that seems like a stretch. Horpe and Massey are both old enough to have served in Roberts Rebellion and both tout Robert as a commander. And they’re not alone. You said that he “blew his one army to dust” as if it was a mark of incompetence. I’m not even sure that it’s true, but if his army was really gone for most of the Rebellion, there are many ways that it could have happened. George said that there are many battles, sieges, ambushes and other engagements that took place during the war that we haven’t heard of and Robert was fighting alone in the south for a good portion of it. He was also able to retreat. Seemingly in good order, since Mace Tyrells main body was days away and Tyrion considered it indecisive. There’s no real reason for Tyrion to be lying to himself here. It’s not as if he’s a Robert acolyte or anything. At best you could say that he’s trying to diminish Mace, but he already acknowledged that the victory was Randyll in that scene. Lyn Corbray commanding of a portion of the army, isn’t all that weird and it doesn’t mean that Robert wasn’t the one making the plans. In almost every major battle that we’ve seen, the armies have been split and given subordinate commanders under the leadership of an overarching commander. At the Blackwater, it was Tywins relief force against Stannis. At the Whispering Wood it was Robb and Jaime Lannister. At the Trident it was Robert and a Rhaegar. Having advisors and listening to them, isn’t a mark of bad generalship either way and that’s assuming that he had a very limited role in planning his battles. The part about Jon Arryn telling them that a commander needed a good battle voice and Robert had proved that on the Trident, isn’t just to show that he was commanding troops there (although that’s part of it). It’s not just to say that he had a loud voice and gave orders, but followed some other persons plans either. He was given the same education as Ned and a good chunk of a noblemans education in this world consists of training at arms, learning to ride horses and commanding troops. Tyrell had a sizeable host, but some of his strength was with Rhaegar, certainly. Rhaegar actually outnumbered Robert on the Trident, although Robert's troops were more battle-tested. I haven't gone into the whole history of the fighting, but there was a good deal more to it than just two armies meeting on the Trident. There were a number of earlier battles, sieges, escapes, ambushes, duels, and forays, and fighting in places as farflung as the Vale and the Dornish Marches. They're probably overshadowed, because Robert was the one in command. How much credit do people like Brynden get in the battles of his namesake, Robb? I’m sure that they were all competent and probably good generals in their own right, but the fact that Roberts record overshadows theirs, doesn’t mean that they were responsible for the planning in Roberts battles. Sure. And part of why Robert would have such a reputation among Baratheon supporters, is that he’d win battles at odds worse than 5 to 1.
  11. I don’t know what else to say. I just completely disagree. Rhaegar won, because he died with her. Robert lost, because he lived and married Cersei. If he knows that Lyanna chose Rhaegar over him, don’t you think that he wouldn’t have mentioned begin with Lyanna again on his deathbed? That doesn’t make any sense. "I will give Lyanna your love, Ned. Take care of my children for me."
  12. George said that there were a lot of battles that we haven’t heard about. Tyrell had a sizeable host, but some of his strength was with Rhaegar, certainly. Rhaegar actually outnumbered Robert on the Trident, although Robert's troops were more battle-tested. I haven't gone into the whole history of the fighting, but there was a good deal more to it than just two armies meeting on the Trident. There were a number of earlier battles, sieges, escapes, ambushes, duels, and forays, and fighting in places as farflung as the Vale and the Dornish Marches.
  13. I subscribe to the idea that a guy who thinks that he’s going to be reunited with his dead fiancée when he dies, doesn’t believe that she loved someone else and rejected him. Yes.
  14. That depends on what you consider a simpleton. Robert was probably of fairly average intelligence. And Robert didn’t beat Cersei to vent his drunken anger. He hit her a handful of times in 15 years of marriage (and she hit him too). One of those times was when she threatened to murder his daughter if he brought her to the Red Keep. Even then, he he felt remorse afterwards.
  15. I agree with you. I was quoting someone else.
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