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direpupy

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  1. direpupy

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    exactly, proving once more that the castle is prestige only and he was a formidable Lord with lands before that, i am glad you agree A steward no matter how powerful his position makes him, is still a servant and would not be called to swear his fealty. As to him ruling in Robert's name, he was Jon's man, a man he trusted, of course people who knew Lysa for they unstable women she was would prefer the trusted Steward over her, and even those Lord's who did not know she was unstable could have wanted this out of good old fashioned misogyny. So this in no way proves your point. Important but it still means he is a servant not a powerful Lord in his own right, it is the last part that really invalidates your argument "in his own right" You suggested it is they office that makes him a powerful Lord in his own right and that can only work if they office is hereditary so i interpreted it as you suggesting it was, but i admit you never actually said so my bad. So? The Blackwoods and Brackens intermarried numerous times and had periods of peace, yet they are still enemies. The Boltons fought alongside the Starks on numerous occasions yet they also rebelled against them. This is really a non-argument from you. I also can't help but notice you never addressed the post where i give numerous quotes to back up my notions, no alternative explanation for them, nor do you present any evidence from the books of your own to counter them, only your opinion. I must say for a strong debater such as yourself this is a pretty poor showing, not at all what i am used to from you.
  2. direpupy

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    Same answer to you as to Corvo, he gets a castle but there is no mention of any lands attached to it and he had no more then a garrison of 300 men when he faced the Lord's declarent. So the castle itself is prestige, just like the tapestries he shows to everyone in WoW sample chapter. Not really he is only a Steward, no matter how important a Steward he would still be a servant not a powerful Lord in his own right. So i disagree with you here, for me the evidence points to him being a Lord of some significance before he gets The Gates of the Moon.
  3. direpupy

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    The "and there sons" does not in any way indicate that they both have to have more then one son if they both only had one the sentence would be the same so that does not say anything at all. As to getting The Gates of the Moon and being happy about it, that is a matter of prestige not so much power since the garrison is only 300 men.
  4. direpupy

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    GRRM has used many medieval terms and naming conventions throughout the books and under there medieval meaning why would this be different? That same fear could be instilled into Henly, he interacts with they other maesters so he knows what they know, the trust in Henly is no different from the trust in they other two and says nothing about where the Slates live or who they are loyal to. No there is more evidence of there being two lordly branches of house Royce. A Game of Thrones - Sansa V Pycelle pushed himself to his feet. He was clad in a magnificent robe of thick red velvet, with an ermine collar and shiny gold fastenings. From a drooping sleeve, heavy with gilded scrollwork, he drew a parchment, unrolled it, and began to read a long list of names, commanding each in the name of king and council to present themselves and swear their fealty to Joffrey. Failing that, they would be adjudged traitors, their lands and titles forfeit to the throne. The names he read made Sansa hold her breath. Lord Stannis Baratheon, his lady wife, his daughter. Lord Renly Baratheon. Both Lord Royces and their sons. He is considered powerful enough to named one of those who must come to swear fealty, you do not call a mere Steward not even one who holds command of the Vale, you call his liege to whom he is sworn because they also swear in the name of those sworn to them. They only reason for him to be called upon is that he has title and land of his own. A Storm of Swords - Catelyn V "No," Catelyn agreed. "You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son." She considered a moment. "Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . ." Here we see a historical Lord of the Junior branch, there is no indication that the High Stewardship is hereditary in nature, hell if it was then it certainly would not be in the hands of a Junior branch of house Royce once the great rivals of house Arryn. So this is a strong indication this man has to be a Lord with land in his own right and that would mean the Junior branch has a Lordship and land of there own. Storm of Swords - Sansa VII Lysa was as lonely as she was. Her new husband seemed to spend more time at the foot of the mountain than he did atop it. He was gone now, had been gone the past four days, meeting with the Corbrays. From bits and pieces of overheard conversations Sansa knew that Jon Arryn's bannermen resented Lysa's marriage and begrudged Petyr his authority as Lord Protector of the Vale. The senior branch of House Royce was close to open revolt over her aunt's failure to aid Robb in his war, and the Waynwoods, Redforts, Belmores, and Templetons were giving them every support. This speaking of Senior and Junior Branch only happens with house Royce even do we know other houses like for example Arryn has lesser branches to, they only reason for this to occur is that the lesser branch is important enough that when speaking of house Royce you have to clearly distinguish between the two Lords A Feast for Crows - Sansa I "I did," Petyr admitted, "but our rock is a Royce, which is to say he is overproud and prickly. Had I asked him his price, he would have swelled up like an angry toad at the slight upon his honor. But this way . . . the man is not utterly stupid, but the lies I served him were sweeter than the truth. He wants to believe that Lysa valued him above her other bannermen. One of those others is Bronze Yohn, after all, and Nestor is very much aware that he was born of the lesser branch of House Royce. A bannerman is someone who brings troops of his own, otherwise he would be a household knight no matter what other position he holds within that household. A Feast for Crows - Alayne I And Yohn Royce, mightiest of them all, the redoubtable Bronze Yohn, Lord of Runestone, Nestor's cousin and the chief of the senior branch of House Royce. Here again GRRM feels the need to point out that there are two distinct branches of house Royce which he does not do when it comes to other houses with lesser branches. Coupled with Cat thinking of Lord Nestor as a powerful Lord in his own right, the indication of him being a Lord with his own lands is clear to see.
  5. direpupy

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    In all honesty that is as good a guess as any other.
  6. direpupy

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    I agree with most of your response to Corvo, but do have one minor nitpick Nestor Royce is not a landless nobody he is called a formidable Lord in his own right before getting the gates of the Moon A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VI Catelyn dismounted to stand before him. "Lord Nestor," she said. She knew the man only by reputation; Bronze Yohn's cousin, from a lesser branch of House Royce, yet still a formidable lord in his own right. "We have had a long and tiring journey. I would beg the hospitality of your roof tonight, if I might."
  7. direpupy

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    O i agree with that, my point was that we do not know how much of the peninsula is considered to be Cape Kraken, if you read back my posts you will see that i never make any statements about who does or does not own that peninsula. As a matter of fact i actually agree with you on there probably being more then one house there, since the tower of the blind Lord is mentioned as being on top of the Flint Cliffs which are on the opposite side of the peninsula from Flint's Finger. It is historically so i have to disagree. Not unless he is missing a few fingers and toe's like Reek/Theon, and even if they attempted it the loyalty would not be assured so this is no evidence for the Slates being anywhere near the Boltons in location. Mind you its not evidence against it either, it just ilustrates we do not know anything about the Slates apart from being former kings and there seat being named Blackpool.
  8. direpupy

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    Wiktionary like all wiki's is not very reliable i would use the Cambridge dictionary which can be found online if you want to get an accurate definition, and i was also talking about the historical definition of pool which differs from the modern one, sorry if that was not clear from the post.
  9. direpupy

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    I agree that's why in my original post i kept they option of it being a place we had not heard of open, see quote below
  10. direpupy

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    FNR actually agreed with me that it was possible they lived near the lakes, i guess you missed that post, see quote below. As to not seeing them, we also did not see the Dustin's and The Ryswell's in Winterfell, so not seeing them there does not say much. The Slates where created quite late in the books they first appear in ADwD, however when they where mentioned it is said they lost men in the South with Robb. So this is more a case of them being a late addition to the houses of the North just like the Dustin's and the Ryswells beeing prominent houses in the latter books where the where not in they early ones then anything else. A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell "I do not claim Lord Wyman does the deeds himself. He brought three hundred men with him. A hundred knights. Any of them might have—" "Night work is not knight's work," Lady Dustin said. "And Lord Wyman is not the only man who lost kin at your Red Wedding, Frey. Do you imagine Whoresbane loves you any better? If you did not hold the Greatjon, he would pull out your entrails and make you eat them, as Lady Hornwood ate her fingers. Flints, Cerwyns, Tallharts, Slates … they all had men with the Young Wolf." "House Ryswell too," said Roger Ryswell.
  11. direpupy

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    Like i said on some maps it is written over a lager area then on others for instance on the map of the North in TWoIaF the name extends sligthly beyond Flint's Finger thus including it into Cape Kraken. Actually pool means a "body of standing water" they only difference with the word lake is that a lake is a body of water where there is a current in the water. Therefore i respectively have to disagree with you that Blackpool can not what we in modern times would call a lake, simply because in modern times the word pool is associated whit swimming pools and no longer with standing body's of water. And why should he not be able to trust Henly just because he is Lord Slates maester? If we consider him to be untrustworthy because of that then Rodry who is the Cerwyn maester can also not be trusted, the Cerwyn's only follow Roose because Lady Jonelle is basically Roose his hostage. And maester Medrick would be even more untrustworthy, because he was the Hornwood maester and would like most Hornwood men have little love for the Bolton's after what happened to Lady Donella. Since these are the three maesters Roose puts in charge of his ravens he must simply have great faith in the fabled neutrality of the maesters of the citadel. They supposedly serve whoever is in charge regardless of who that is, or the relation to who they served before.
  12. direpupy

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    Actually we don't know if it is or isn't, this is the same situation as the Barrowlands, is cape Kraken they entire peninsula next to the neck or only the farthest section of it. We do not know, if you look at some maps of the north the name only appears on the farthest part but on others it is they entire peninsula. If it is only the farthest part then Flint's Finger is not on Cape Kraken, but if it is they entire peninsula then it is on there. As i said basically it is the same situation as the Barrowlands we simply do not know. If it was at the shores of Long Lake then why call it Blackpool? No if you are going to call a seat after a pool then it will be because it is next to a pool or lake by that name, so that would be one of the as yet unnamed lakes north of the Barrowlands and the Rills, or perhaps even a lake or pool that we do not yet know about. As to Maester Henly, the Slates are with Roose at Winterfell and before that the where at Barrowton, so Roose ordering him around really is not all that strange, he is the maester of one of the Lords that is with Roose.
  13. direpupy

    Most Powerful Houses- what evidence?

    I don't know about the Slates being in that area. Sure they ruled the wolfs den for a while, but that could have been a offshoot or side branch of the main house, just like the Greystarks where an offshoot of house Stark and the Flints of Widows Watch and Flints of Flints Finger are offshoots of the Flint mountain clan. There seat is named Blackpool, most likely because it is near a body of water by that name. One of the lakes above the Barrowlands and the Rills would be the most likely candidates for this, so i would personally place them there and not in they southeastern area of the North.
  14. Like i said we are not going to agree on the subject of Munkun versus Tyrion, but i must say i am enjoying this discussion it is one of the best i have had on this forum in a long time. Most of the discussions tend to decent into name calling real fast these days so thank you for your serious answers and willingness to actually discuss. I do agree with you on the dragon thing you are discussing with Jaak. The problem with this is that we basically know that Yandel is wrong in some of the things he says, we are explicitly warned by GRRM about the unreliable narrator so to just assume that a history is correct is not something you can do. I did not assume anything i said we did not know if he was one or they other, thus both options are open. He could be but, it is not certain and that uncertainty has to be taken into account. Really if they have the same coloring and you look at a dragon from a distance how are you going to tell the one from they other? Especially since most people would never have seen the dragon in question before and only know there description from story's. Now the squire knows which dragon his master was going to kill. Did other potential witnesses know? The sources Munkun bases his story could be wrong and again you have to take that into account. I agree that to be a Maester you need links from many different subjects, but being able to get more then one link on a subject does mean there are people who can and will focus more on one area then an other and that was the point. I agree this is a weak point that speaks against Tyrion, but on the whole taking everything into account i do still believe that Munkun is more likely to be wrong. You also have to take into account that the Byron thing is a side note in the histories, that does not influence they outcome of the war. So how much work would Munkun have put into researching this incident for his history? He could have taken some official document in Kings Landing about they incident at face value, because it was just a side note not world shocking news. Since the manner of the attack emulated a famous story it would be the part that makes it into all they accounts, detailed or not. I'm not making a decision i am stating my personal opinion, and i agree with you that no final conclusion can be reached with the current information available. That the citadel chooses the Grand Maester and that others can not do so i do not dispute, but that the King can not influence the decision or refuse to admit the person chosen to the court as Grand Maester i do dispute. You yourself have stated in other treads that the Targaryens where in effect absolute monarchs, even if you have a right to refuse, it is not smart to do so. Its a good place to start for sure, but that does not guarantee the sources are reliable. Having said that, this is a pretty good argument in favor of Munkun one i have not yet taken into account and certainly makes me rethink things. Thank you again for taking this discussion serious like i said at the beginning of my post not everybody does anymore on the forum and for me discussing is about gaining new insites like they one you gave me here. One last note on this, i may be wrong but i do get the feeling from this you think Byron made his attempt in Kings Landing? Again i may be getting the wrong impression, but if i am not then i do feel obliged to point out that we do not know where they attempt took place. I do not agree on eyewitnesses being irrelevant, and would like to point out again that Munkun may not have given the matter much attention since it is a side note in they overall history of the Dance. But i must say you are swaying me more towards Munkun with this, and they argument about the court above this one. Hmm i have to disagree with this, Ser Robert Quince the castelan of Dragonstone does name the Cannibal as the culprit even do he hears the story. Others do not, but in my opinion that just proves that confusing dragons is quit easy since different people come to different conclusions based on the same story. I respect your opinion on this, but i firmly disagree that confusing dragons falls into the same category as your examples. Knowing which dragons there are and telling them apart are to separate things. Anyway you did give me a few things to think about, which i am going to do. With me being away for a few days for work i might not be able to respond to any post you make on this until the weekend or maybe even next Monday, but i am looking forward to your response.
  15. direpupy

    Strange Thing About the Twins

    Honestly yes i would.
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