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Lion of the West

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  1. I agree with this. And as a solution I'd offer Andals in Andalos. Just like the Ionian Greeks drew the mainland Greeks into constant conflict with Persia in antiquity so Andals in Essos could pull Westeros into wars in against powers in Essos. Both with Andals being the majority population in Westeros as well as the king being the "King of the Andals".
  2. I don't claim some special insight but, yeah, Andalos is pretty much emptied of Andals by this point in the story. Its a bit a bit sad but to my understanding GRRM wanted a story focused on Westeros and so cut many ties between Westeros and Essos to not drag Essos to much into Westerosi affairs in the main series. Thus no Andals in Essos for the Andals in Westeros to be in contact with or act as a kind of bridge for interaction between Westeros and Essos.
  3. EDITED: It added nothing tothe discussion. So I remove it. My bad for posting it from the start. Mind if I file this under "Whataboutism"? Has anyone so far bothered to counter these kind of quotes about Tywin when trying to say he's a psycopath or some other diagonsis that the person arguing is totally unqualified to judge?
  4. And please tell me how does Jaime resemble Tywin? The calculating and patient Tywin is similar to the impulsive and reckless Jaime?
  5. Was it? I may have forgotten by how did it help the Lannister cause? Cersei boasts of much and Tywin was right to see possible alliances between people who hates him. However giving the Martells anything would be so stupid its beyond words. Gregor was worth far more to Tywin than the "plotter" in the Sunspear would ever do in favor of the Lannisters. Tywin knows that people who hate him will not do anything to help him and that giving them great asset for a token of positive attention for a second is stupid, harms the Lannisters and achives nothing. The Martells became Tywin's enemies after Elia's death and pretty much nothing that anyone does will change that dynamic for this current generation's time, at least. As a RL example of the kind of scenario you're talking about, not about feuds but about pandering to your opponents: In my country's domestic politics the social democrats and the green party went along with many neo-liberal reforms to break the liberal parties away from the conservatives in the right-wing political bloc and make these liberal parties change sides to the left. What has actually happened has been that the neo-liberal parties have squeeshed the social democrats for neo-liberal reforms before starting to align themselves with their conservative friends again. Can you understand the pointlessness of pandering to people who hate you? While having sex with an entirely different women. There's something called sensitivity and empathy to others and I've heard its good for making relations work. Now of course Robert does not bear all the burden, as he did, as I recall, try to spend time and take Cersei along for various activities such as hunting and socialize with her, which she turned down. And that part is on Cersei as much as having sex with a woman and vocally expressing your desire for another woman is on Robert. Finally I don't think that any relations between Robert and a wife could work. No real and living woman can stand a chance against an idealized fantasy who is always exactly whatever Robert wants her to be. Who has worked pretty damned hard on alienating plenty of people who wanted to love him. Now I also understand that depressed people do self-destrutive things so that's a mitigating aspect of this. Yet at the end it was Robert who drove away Stannis from him, initiated his marriage with Cersei with a solid "you are nothing to me" sign and so on and was on the verge of driving away Eddard as well. Robert is no doubt as complex as any characters in Westeros, but, his sad state is as much his own work as anyone else's.
  6. Problem with this is that Dorne sent an army to the Trident. The rebels smashed the Dornish army at the Trident and the remains fled to King's Landing where Tywin finished them off. Please tell me what ability to project force northward to do harm to the Lannisters in the Westerlands or King's Landing does the Martell possess? As far as I can see, Tywin inflamed the kingdom most likely to be hostile to the new Baratheon dynasty regadless, that is the the weakest and most far away. Cersei granted strength to a power there was every reason to think that she could neither bend by working with or break by force, and then delivered herself into their hands. Do you see the difference between inflaming the distant Dornish and inflaming the ascendning Faith? Partially this is on Tywin, yes, but more on the child murderers in Dorne and on Tyrion's stupidity in trying to make people who hates him, love him, by giving these people stuff to do harm to him. Sending Myrcelle to Dorne was perhaps Tyrion's biggest blunder in his stint as "Vice Hand" and given the Lannister's recent history with the Martells, Tyrion should have known better. That's silly. Tywin had no way to know of these tunnels and Jamie's scheme to freed Tyrion and then let Tyrion go into the tunnels on his own. I agree that it was a poor choice of words and example. My apologises. The problem is that Cersei imitates Tywin's actions but she does not, as far as I can see, understand that Tywin chooses his actions according to what he wants to accomplish and the situation at hand. Hence Cersei is cruel because she thinks that cruelty is strength. Tywin is cruel because he can read a situation or character and see that these cruel acts will have effects beneficient to what he wants. At times these two overlapp, but often they do not. But the point I am making, have been making and will keep making is that Cersei hasn't been given a proper education and training for rule, while Tywin has gained a ton of experience from many years as Hand and Lord Paramount. Hence Cersei would be more successful if Tywin had prepared her to rule.
  7. I am not very interested in Youtube videos but I am interested in what you think on the differentiation between "true" and "false" empathy.
  8. No, they do not. To start with you are right in the how the same actions, personality traits etc. are view differently when done or possessed by a man or a woman. You are however wrong, in my opinion, in that Tywin and Cersei screw things up to the same degree. Cersei got herself arrested, shamed and more while Tywin's feud with the Martells lead to, about nothing, for Tywin. You are right in that she does not rule in her own name. Bad and wrong choice of words by me. You will however note that as regent there's no superior to tell her "No." when she wants to do something and to whom she must listen. And like I said, unlike Catelyn who was Hosters heir and unlike Rhaenyra who was her father's heir, Cersei never got any preparation to rule. And I think that has more to do with her failure than her morality. Neither have I claimed that their gender was the sole reason they fell. But I do note that there have been two women ruling "alone" as regent or queen on the top in Westeros. And both of them didn't have very happy reigns. This is actually wrong. Aegon III spent many years in the Red Keep and had, to my knowledge, many loyal regents in the council from whom Aegon III could learn before he took the throne. Aegon III had, unless some miracelous retcon is done, many years to get ready to rule. Cersei didn't. And in general I revolt against the stupidous idea that education/training and experience is unimportant while talent is all important to manage to do something. This is wrong. Daeron the Good couldn't stop the Blackfyre Rebellion, Bloodraven (who isn't a very nice person) did, King Aenys couldn't keep the realm together or defeat the Faith, Maegor (who wasn't a very nice person) could and got the Faith ready for a peaceful solution and finally Robb Stark couldn't keep his kingdom together and his reputation has only been saved by the Red Wedding. Do you see a trend in how good natured people don't automatically succeed as rulers? I am not arguing against the facts. I argue that because Tywin never took Cersei to this councils or trained her to rule and so, she never learned important lessons about ruling. She could have screwed it up anyway, but without training she was guaranteed to screw it up. What a load of BS. A diagnosis of psycopathy is done by a professional who has the education to do so and not by a check list on the internet. Can you define "true empathy" as opposed to "false empathy"? I would like an authoritan definition so that I can understand this, and other, arguments better. See my answer to Arthur Peres but insert a professional on "child psychology" instead to determine if Joffrey is psycopath or not.
  9. Again, as consorts and not as the ruling queen. We only have two women ruling at the top over a united Westeros and those are Rhaenyra and Cersei, neither came off very well. My comment is that without being prepared for ruling and given the ability to observe and learn means that you are much less likely to succeed than if you had been given prior preparation for the position. My point isn't about Cersei's lack morality, but that her failure as a ruler is more likely to come from a lack of training and preparation for that role than from a morale failure. If morality was the determination for competence at rule then the Unworthy wouldn't have lasted a year.
  10. Having the power to stop evil things, and do nothing, is a bit more than just a little bad. Domestic abuse is not ok any time of the day or in any situation. Simple as that. True that Robert didn't murder too many people, he "only" allowed others to do it on his watch and left his friends and brothers to die because he was a coward. I like Robert and can sympathize with him but I can't give him a pass for his neglect and cowardice. I totally agree with your view about the hand Cersei was dealt although I wouldn't go that far in regards to Robert. These women also rule as lesser ladies and not as queens meaning that they are not under nearly the pressure and with as many bull's eyes painted on them as Cersei has. Now Cerseri is no exceptional person, but a person being put into that situation with, to my knowledge, pretty much no preperation or training shouldn't suprise us if that person fails pretty badly.
  11. For the dynastic purposes that's very possible. But not necessarily for how they wanted to live their lives as human beings. I figure that most people feel a duty to their house and such. But this duty probably isn't the only think they care for or want to do with their lives.
  12. I figured it was simply because they didn't want many children. Its not like all people crave lots of children.
  13. I agree entirely. But the thing that I would think we diverge on is that I think that the show became a mess because they followed GRRM's plotlines without enough time to flesh them out like Martin can in the books. Also GRRM is a kind of romantic person, not as in dinner out with living candles, but more in a King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table kind of romance. I don't think that he can stand having those he has judged to be bad guys as not losing in the end. Well, let's not forget that while the feudal machinery works on, many of its key pieces have been hurt and would need to be replaced. Personally I don't find much of the character choices impossible. Unlikely yes, but Westeros has been in a shake up regarding the nobles for a time so its not impossible that people unthinkable a decade ago might rise high. There are times when the traditional leadership of a country has been decimated and it has allowed new people to climb up without bringing the whole system down. To start with Cersei and Bran. Cersei has the advantage of being a born Lannister and a married Baratheon and is in the capital where she's cultivated influences and allies. Given how both Renly and Stannis, the main claimants after Robert's "children" are gone, are also gone I don't see what person has a clear claim that's so much better than the wife of a Baratheon king and the mother of two Baratheon kings? I can't recall anyone at least. As for Bran, well, he's a Stark and have that going for him while at the same time no one of importance and alive in the end would need to feel fear of retribution from King Stark. So a kind of working compromisse choice. And given how there are no Baratheons left, nor Targaryens, in the end and Bran is of the blood of House Stark and a son of Eddard Stark, how can you possible claim that blood wouldn't matter in this choice? Not really in regards to Bronn. The Tullys got the Riverland and the Tyrells the Reach despite there being Houses with far better credentials to both positions of Lord Paramount. Same with Gendry who is at least a son, even if a bastard son, of Robert Baratheon. It wouldn't be the first time that the Stormlands goes to a man born as a bastard, after all. I assume you mean "antagonist" and not "protagonist". In my heart they are the heroes but I know that's not a common perception. Indeed. The problem is of course if the rest of the realm is in a better shape and if its leadership has the will for more war and bloodshed. Could be. But when the dragons comes flying I don't think that people will try to claim those flying monsters are all smoke-and-mirrors. Yeah. But more importantly Sansa gets the North and Winterfell and for that I am ready to accept many things. I'm not sure I share you sentiment about high adventure and so but I'll leave it at that. Entirely possible. I watch ot little TV to know what's common or not in such shows. Absolutely. Yet even while they despises the Freys and threw much at them. So the Lannisters and their allies were ready to work with the Frreys and didn't turn on them, sword in hand. Yes, I recall such. It remains to see in what shape the Westerosi nobility is after the books are done. After two Targaryen invasions, Euron's rampaging across Westeros and so on, we'll have to see how much many Robert/Randyll people are actually left to urge for more wars. I have an idea that the nobility will be kind of hit hard also in the South, with much of its adult male members killed off or otherwise having had their fill of war. I recall several instances were Brienne has kicked thes shit of men; from Loras, the guys who betted on who could bed her first to the Brave Companions in, or by, the ruined castles and so on. I don't doubt she will keep smashing pigs' faces as the series progresses and beyond the last page. Indeed. We won't see a general shift in the attitudes to women. But just like Joan d'Arc has a special position so I think that Brienne can reach a special position as well. Or at least I hope she will. There needs to be energy and will to rebel. After all that's happened in the series I don't find it strange if the nobles who are left are so sick of violence and loss of friends and relatives, that they just go along with a Stark on the throne. I didn't say they were highely respected. But they are still nobles and even if many will call them upstarts. No claim would be a problem if there were people around with claims to challenge Bran, but by the looks of it, there won't be such people to cause problem. And I don't think that Bran will found a dynasty. It will just be Bran and I have no idea how long he'll last. But it should be at least generation before a new generation of cocky young warriors are ready to start execution of mass violence for some really stupid thing, that Bran can at the ealiest get deposed.
  14. I don't find it unresaonable that she'll become an adventurer who seeks to do a "Nymeria 2.0". The idea that she will, after she finally find her family, discover that her trauma will forever have distanced her from really being part of it again sounds like a bitter ending. But that she will go on adventures unhindred and traverse the world seems like a sweeter part of the ending. Besides such a thing has been forshadowed with both the Ironmen House mentioning lands to the west, the Stark who headed west and some, I've come to understand, points in the story and backstory.
  15. Could well be. I don't think its an impossibility. But I think that after Tommen departs the Iron Throne no man will sit on it until "Bran", which can be argued if its a "he" or an "it" I suppose, takes it. But anyway I think that Cersei will indeed make it to the last and be the one to burn in King's Landing. What I think about Aegon's plotline is that he will march into the Reach next to gather various allies, like the Hightowers and probably the Tarlys (I think that Tarly will do to the Tyrells what Bolton did to Stark, they've both got a red man on their coat of arms and I think that means something) before he turns towards the capital, and is destroyed by Danaerys. Instead of the Lannister army with the food getting destroyed, it will be Aegon that has his dreams shattered by dragon fire. I could of course be wrong and the presence of the Golden Company at King's Landing in the end hints that its Aegon who holds the city, yet somehow I think that Cersei will make it to the end, and she will never give up the throne or capital while there's life in her.
  16. Not very lijkely. Much more likely is that Bran will be the 3E who ends the isolation and comes out to dwell among humans and use his wisdom to rebuild Westeros, and perhaps create a Westeros that's in some forms different and maybe even better than what was before.
  17. I suppose this is one of the few times I feel that I am in a serious disagreemen with you. My credientals as a Lannister fanboy should be impeccable and I still love this endning and was totally ok with the Starks taking home the end game. I'll try to explain why that is. Although I should note that GRRM across two books are most likely going to be able to show a great many more things to make this ending possible as opposed what can be put into the available screen time for GoT. Alot of this will be speculation but I hope it won't be baseless. To start with Bran I think that the reason as to why he would work is that does have his magical powers, and I think that we will see them put into action as well as he being able to confirm that it is indeed he who wields those powers. So that's probably why he gets considered from the first go. He will be known to have done much about the Others while at the same time both being from an known and ancient noble House and also not being associated with any particular political camp will mean that no one will need to feel that the others got "their candiate" on the throne when Bran becomes king. Given the wounds and rifts left after wars and conflicts that the book depicts, a guy without clear affiliations to be it Lannister, Baratheon or Targaryen will probably be easier to swallow than an ex-member from any faction. Yes, he is affiliated with the Starks but I think that his young age and lack of involvement on the Stark side during the war will speak to his favor as well as the fact that the enemies with whom the Starks would probably have a conflict with; Frey, Bolton and Lannister (and perhaps Clegane), seems to no longer be of importance, hence that part will be moot as few people will have a reason to fear retribution from King Stark. Also I think that you ascribe to much "win" to Jon and Arya's endings. Both of them, in particular Jon, refused many paths that could have lead him to a more enjoyable life, be it as Danaerys' consort, the Lord of Winterfell or what you've got. That Jon does sacrifice his honour for the sake of the realm and picks duty over love and personal success seems very much like an incredibly admirable thing to do. I know that I've talked alot of crap about Jon but I consider myself to be a person with an open mind so I am entirely willing to take all of that back and look on Jon much more favorably. As for Arya I think that he decision to leave Westeros for the seas to the west don't seem all to happy for her. To start with Tyrion is, to my knowledge, more contempted than hated outside of the West and probably King's Landing. And yes, it does feel a bit like that he will not be a highly respected or beloved Hand of the King but it also seems to me that he is still, even though all he has done and been through, a noble known from an ancient House of previous regal standing and being descended from such means that he would be far more digestable than many others as many noble houses have been wiped out or decimated and so that shrinks the pool of possible recruits severely. As for Brienne might be considered a joke to many, but we know she's been teaching chavunists the opposite since she was introduced to the story, I don't see why she shouldn't be able to continue doing this in grand style after she takes on a white cloak. In fact I think that with a knight as valiant and skilled as Brienne King Bran would have a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard to start that organization's slow climb out the abyss they've fallen into. As someone with interests in both the medieval knighthood and the chivalry that was associated with knights, this is among the best parts of the ending for me. Also who would be the two commoners on the Small Council? Both Davos and Bronn may have been knighted in their life times but they are still nobles. And I think, or maybe its just that I imagine, but that one of the reasons to why the nobility accepts Bran and his Small Council is that after year after year of war and violence, greed and abuse of power, with one tyrant replacing another, people from noble to commoner might just be so sick of it that they don't have stomach for another round of war but just wants it all to finally end and let them live in peace again.
  18. Let's just say that I disagree strongly. Stannis going to battle in a fight he can possibly win and getting defeated would be a far more dignified and suiting manner than him going out as a guy who has lost all touch with reality and effectively committ sucide-by-Others. That particular oath is not for kings to nullify.
  19. I don't see how Jon can become a major player if Stannis isn't defeated and killed by the Boltons. If Stannis takes Winterfell and destroy House Bolton, then if the show's unifyingof Danaerys and Jon will take place, Jon will sit around at the Wall and do nothing while Stannis leads the way either against the Others or Lannisters. If Stannis is defeated however, then suddenly Jon becomes the main mover in the North and we already know that the Boltons, if Stannis is defeated, have their sights on Jon. Now it may be that Stannis and Jon can switch places through a really convoluted set of events, but that would make no sense to me and take away from the message on House Baratheon on how infighting and division leads to destruction, just as the Stark kids probably will come into a better position than either Lannister or Baratheon because they kept themselves on the same side and didn't turn on each other, despite both Baratheons and Lannisters having much better shots at becoming the top House than the Starks really had.
  20. Sansa becoming the ruling queen of Westeros would be really, really cool and certainly an even better ending than what we got. Although I see no reason as to why the realm would fracture or why a "balance of power" as the one after Napoleon would be good or better than how it turned out in reality.
  21. I imagine it was so that he could get close to Danaerys, come into her confidence but still not be a raging Mother of Dragons!!!-fanatic, and so drive that dagger into her heart. And also to make their relations and Jon's murder of Danaerys more impactful than if someone who was more distanced from her did it.
  22. While many of the details will likely be different in the books, I think the main events and how they conspire to the end is pretty on when it comes to the show. So now the end is spoiled for us, but I can't wait to get on the journey leading us there. It sucks that the Lannisters were all killed and Danaerys went down, but it was a bittersweet ending that was beyond the traditional "and they lived happily ever after" so I am very happy with it and it has, as I've mentioned in other places as well, re-kindled my interest in Westeros and faith in GRRM.
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