Maia

Martin said: "My Littlefinger would have never turned Sansa over to Ramsay. Never. "He's obsessed with her. Half the time he thinks she's the daughter he never had — that he wishes he had, if he'd married Catelyn. And half the time he thinks she is Catelyn, and he wants her for himself." "He's not going to give her to somebody who would do bad things to her. "That's going to be very different in the books," I quickly googled this quote here: https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/1347396/Game-of-Thrones-George-RR-Martin-Sansa-books-HBO-Winds-Winter-release-date but it was the "Rant and Rave" thread that first made me aware of it. OTOH, the search function on this forum sucks and I couldn't find it there again. All of the differences that I mention as certain in my previous post come from the research on interviews and quotes from Hibberd's book cited there. IIRC the last 15-20 pages have the gist of it. For all we know Harry is going to die shortly in WoW. And wasn't there a lot of talk here and elsewhere in the past about how a "right woman" may have been able to manage Robert and he would have remained a better man? I don't really share this opinion, but it may be that Sansa-Harry, to the extent that it happens, goes in this direction. Anyway, some more thoughts on the book possibilities: If GRRM holds to king Bran, could it be that some of un-Cat's importance as a character is tied to putting him on the throne? She already has Robb's crown... I can't fathom how GRRM could have thought that the 5-year gap was negotiable if he holds to king Bran, sigh. And for that matter, why did he progress the time-line so little in AFFC/ADwD? And finished ADwD on multiple cliffhangers, which again preclude progressing the time-line between books? No wonder that he has such problems finishing the series - he is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. The story has grown so different from his early outline that the envisioned ending from that outline no longer fits. This makes it difficult to judge how seriously he is going to take the second Long Night. If it is supposed to be more than a damp squib, like in the show, then the Others really need to overrun the North and reach the Riverlands. There are foreshadowings of them eventually reaching the Trident in the books, and it makes no sense whatsoever for any non-northern armies to be able to operate in the North in Winter. There is also the strongly implied significance of Harrenhal, of the Island of Faces, etc. But it would mean that TWoW needs to show the Others south of the Wall relatively early. I favor a number of them sneaking into the North before the Wall comes down. Possibly on ships sent to Hardhome - then it could work like in "Dracula", seemingly empty ships arriving/being discovered somewhere, foreboding, etc. Or the wildlings from the Frozen Shore who worship them as gods could smuggle them through or around the Wall. The Others overruning the North wouldn't necessarily mean that all the people there would die in the short term either - Old Nan's tales strongly suggest the existence of human enclaves in the Other-controlled territories in the past and Tormund hinted that the wildlings had some partially effective defences against them, but frustratingly didn't go into detail. Old castles may have in-built protections as well. Whereas part of the population would be able to escape south. Not to forget Euron, who looks either like a stooge for the Others or a representative of some other malignant force. There is also a very big question about what the resolution to the Other problem could even look like. GRRM is on record with his admiration of the ending of LoTR and it's "magic needs to depart for the age of Man to begin", but it has been done a million times and is, frankly, rather boring. There is a very good reason for it in LoTR, which was conceived as mythological "history" for Great Britain that in Tolkien's opinion didn't have enough of it. Or in the many fantasy stories where magic is a metaphor for childhood - of people or civilizations. Like in the zillion takes on "The Matter of Britain" or re-working of historical events with insertion of magic into the background, etc. But would it actually feel satisfying if Westeros loses it's distinguishing characteristics like it's rogue seasons and becomes "just like us" for no real reason? Not IMHO. Nor do I think that the resolution of the conflict with the Others should cancel the long and fierce Winter after nearly 10 years of Summer, like in the show. The books could show Westeros recovering from it in an epilogue to the last book volume, after all. I am not even sure that we need to have certainty that the Others have been defeated/eradicated for all time.

Well, due to all the research by the poster @The Dragon Demands and the analysis of Hibberd's book by @Count Balerion back in the "Rant and Rave" thread, we now know a few things that won't be the same in the books, i.e.: Sansa's plot-line is going to be very different and LF would have never given her to Ramsey - that's from GRRM himself. We know, of course, that she was just a stand-in for Jeyne Poole in the show, but IIRC some people thought that she might still somehow end up in Ramsey's clutches in the books as well. Thankfully, no. This also precludes Harry the Heir from revealing himself to be another abuser. Rickon still has an important role to play according to GRRM - which hints at Stannis defeating the Boltons and briefly holding the North, IMHO. Or maybe even the Starks continuing through him, to the joy of all those who worship patrilineal inheritance? Sigh. Hodor's "hold the door" was meant as "hold the enemies off with a sword, while being skin-changed by Bran". So, the lack of actual doors in the Children's Cave is not an obstacle, sigh. The Night King is purely a show creation - again, we knew this, but some thought that GRRM might have had something similar in mind. Viserion falling to NK ditto, the result of the D&D's desire to bring a huge Army of the Dead south cinematically - and, I guess, them being influenced by a WoW commercial? Which looks very similar indeed, now that I have seen it. What is interesting is that they talk of how they didn't want _just_ the NK and a few Others being able to cross - which might be a hint at something that I have suspected since ADwD. Namely, that some Others are already in the North, but in hiding and are circumspectedly building up. Or will be shortly, after catching a ride on the ships sent to Hardhome. I have long suspected that the wights being brought in inert form through the Wall back in AGoT and then "reviving" was a test of whether the Others themselves could do the same. The tidbit in FaB that hints at certain tribes of wildlings from the Frozen Shore worshipping the Others as "the gods of snow" makes it even more likely that they'd be game for smuggling inert Others through the Wall (some of them were with Tormund's people) or around it, on their boats. Now, we don't know for sure if anything prevents the Others from just sailing around or crossing the gorge at the Shadow Tower, but the Wall wouldn't be much of deterrent otherwise. This is very speculative, I know. Sadly, I can no longer deny that this "moral" comes through in GRRM's ASoIAF writings and whatever can be gleaned from the early outline of the then-trilogy, and yes, the show. Except that not even sexual abuse can make one worthy, it seems. See Crown Princess Aelora from FaB. Or even Dany after her wedding night and before her dragon dream. Yes, in every individual case it can be justified, but if you take GRRM's treatment of women who want power and agency in the novels, DoTD writings and FaB in aggregate, a pretty disheartening picture emerges: Lysa. Got to rule the Vale for a short time. A crazy, incompetent woman, her husband's murderer, eventually put down by her lover to protect Sansa. Does/did GRRM really intend to copy this with Dany?!!! Catelyn. Was partly raised as her father's heir and wanted to have agency in her family's affairs. Was regent of the North for a short time, failed badly as such. Could be fairly astute when advising other people, but whenever she took action, it ended in disaster. Which makes it easy for those so inclined to blame her for the fall of the Starks. Goes mad before her death (this is going to be a trend). Cersei. Always wanted to be her father's heir and rule in her own right, as well as have sexual agency. The stupidest of her 3 siblings, once Jaime actually starts using his brain. Cruel, impulsive, spiteful, but still dangerous because of her "low cunning". The reason for the War of Five Kings due to her insane insistance on not bearing any of Robert's children and general handling of Robert's coutriers (including his brothers). Greatly contributed to Joffrey being a psycho. Her PoV reveals her to be a Mad Queen. Do we really need a second one?!!! So that when the reasonable males Bran and Tyrion come to pick up the pieces everybody can sigh with relief and praise patriarchy for finally saving them from "the monstrous regiment of women"? GRRM seemed to think so when he allegedly told D&D that he intended for Bran to be king at the end. Arianne. A foolish, willfully ignorant young woman, who doesn't want to put up with being replaced as her father's heir because of her gender. Nearly caused a war once already and seems well on-track to cause another in the preview chapters. Not yet mad, but give her time. Asha. Introduced as competent and her father's chosen heir. After losing the kingsmoot seems to have also lost her brains and commits the same mistake that she rightly criticized her hapless brother for, namely playing a sitting duck in a hostile castle without any hope of support from her people. Currently a captive and some think that she is going to be sacrificed in her brother's place. Melisandre - a real seer who can't interpret her visions worth a damn, as opposed to male Moqorro's very precise foretellings. Dany? If we look at the early outline of ASoIaF trilogy, the one with the super-villain Jaime and Tyrion flipping from the Lannisters to the Starks and then somehow putting Bran on the throne, women in it are restricted to being antagonists (Sansa, Dany, Cat towards Jon), source of conflict between men (Cat, Arya) and love interests (Arya). If we look at DoTD/FaB, then GRRM chose to retcon the whole "a daughter inherits after the sons, but before other male relatives" law that people cite incessantly in the series proper into something that barely ever happened. Which, conveniently, reduced the number of women who could have played significant roles historically. He had reduced the importance of and/or villified the women who have been already mentioned in the books, such as Visenya, Alysanne, Rhaenyra, Joanna Lannister. The rest of them he either had die in chidlbirth at rates by far exceeding those of medieval queens of England, their daughters and granddaughters (I looked) - and that, despite the maesters having an understanding of aseptics and antiseptics that was only achieved in the second half of 19th century iRL and Targaryen supposed resistance against infections, or be mainly notable for their sexual escapades. Notably, most female dragonriders had zero political or military clout and got pushed around by various men who tried to force them into marriages. But Dany's dragons are somehow unstoppable WMDs and the equivalent of the One Ring? Yea, right. Oh, and both times that women functioned as Masters of Whisperers, it ended badly for everybody. Etc., etc. As to all the bigots who prevented women from succeeding to the throne in DoTD novellas and FaB, if GRRM still holds to his "king Bran" plan, it seems that he intends to prove them right! It would be pretty unconscionable, not to mention stupid if she did it on purpose and without some overriding necessity - like, say, a massive grey plague epidemic that needs to be stopped. But doing a number of targeted strikes if needed would be totally OK. Ditto if a surrender turns to be fake and a trap. It is not paranoia, if they are really out to get you. And yes, it would totally justify striking back at anybody who is or might be attacking, even if there are civilians in the way. Murderizing everything _but_ your target, less so. In the books not even Balerion would have been able to do what was depicted in the show, though, and Dany's dragons are much smaller. OTOH, some things need to be broken - including the Slaver cities and the Dothraki themselves. Between them they stifle any economic growth and halfway bearable human existence in the region. So, the solution is "them that has, gets"? You shouldn't stand up for yourself nor try to change things around you for the better? Which, you know, requires having power or influence on those that have it. Here is what I find irritating and baffling, not to mention more than a little hypocritical - according to FaB and DoTD materials Dany's dragons aren't anything close to nuclear weapons. Not even Balerion, Meraxes and Vhagar were that, really. The Conquest could only happen because of a unique political situation at the time, with a lot of preparation and planning. And brinkmanship and diplomacy. Nor were even the original trio untouchable - Visenya was nearly killed on the Field of Fire, it were more Orys and his men rather than Rhaenys that won the battle against Argilac and she _was_ killed in Dorne with her dragon. Not to mention all the dragons just killed by people during the Dance of the Dragons. Dany's dragons aren't really comparable to those of the Conqueror trio and until now they were more of a PR/morale thing rather than the source of her victories. Oh, and in FaB dragon-riding women are being totally pushed around and forced into marriages by dragonless men. Nuclear weapons? Pfft. Well, Drogon destroyed it, didn't he? So, the symbolic implication should be fairly clear. OTOH, from the world-building perspective, the House, the Heart and the Undying and the odd dwarfish creatures, etc. seem like a dark mirror the Children of the Forest and the greenseers in their caves. Well, duh? I mean, the same applies to an army. Maybe he does, but that's kinda hypocritical. Destruction is destruction. And 8K years of near-complete stagnation is nothing to brag about either. Not to mention that Targaryen dynasty goes back to Valyria, which allegedly existed for 3 millenia and change too. Actually, no. It just shows, yet again, that if that is what he had in mind, then Martin is a man of his time, who was inspired by even older and more biased influences, like The Matter of Brittain and The Fisher King. What has been done a million times is a woman who can't handle teh power and it drives her mad. The Dark Phoenix. Which GRRM has already, regrettably, overused in ASoIaF and related writings. Somebody like Dany as a hero was not only not done a million times, it wasn't done at all, back when the series was conceived and the first books written. Nor was it done much since. Which is what made her interesting. But being a truly morally grey hero or anti-hero is sadly still largely reserved to men.

Finished Harrow and liked it overall, though I found Gideon's voice to be more engaging. Also, Muir's love of inserting pop-culture/out of place memes and similes that didn't bother me with Gideon, really bothered me with Harrow. I mean, neither of them should know what an ice-cream, ticket, etc. is, but at least Gideon could have gotten some of that from her comics' - which also it wasn't ever explained how she was getting them, but eh, it is now clear that these inclusions are just the author's thing. I was very confused about the flashbacks at first, of course, but the eventual reveal worked for me. OTOH, I am still not wholly clear about some of the other plots. Yea, though I still don't understand who the enemies of the Houses outside the system are and how they got there. Or, for that matter, if the First House (Earth) was destroyed by nuclear war, why did the sun need to be re-ignited? Harrow the Ninth spoilers:

Good news! Hopefully, a certain wizard isn't in it, because he is a completely ridiculous character, who brings down the narrative.

Well, sometimes things change quite quickly, if the circumstances are ripe for it. For instance, look at the drastic changes that happened in large parts of Byzantine Empire between 628 and 634, ditto the fall of the Sassanid Empire, etc. with attendant changes in religions. _If_ GRRM is actually serious about the devastation that the Others, the wars and the grayscale epidemic _should_ bring, a strong resurgence of the Old Gods religion isn't out of the question, provided that it is shown to be effective, where the Faith is revealed as impotent. And the Red religion will come to be seen as malignant, I guess, since they are part of "Fire", which is apparently supposed to be as bad as the Others(?!!). Not something that I can behind - surely Valyria was this at it's peak, but it seems to be GRRM's plan, so them's the breaks. I am not talking about the meaningless sound-bytes from the show, which have no basis in the books. But as you say - apocalyptic, which _should_ mean radical change regardless of any people's plans. Westeros has been frozen in a very primitive form of feudalism for millenia, apparently - surely it is time for something to kick at least parts of it into Renaissance? Or even more sophisticated late Middle Ages, with a reasonable number of towns and cities, proper justiciary, etc. With the devastations taking the role the Black Death had iRL. Die-off among higher nobility would help with all of that. So? Noble Arryns as rulers of the Vale still can end. And Bran is the Tully heir after Edmure and his unborn kid - which could bolster his claim to kingship, given that he'd be somebody from a formerly royal House and in control of the 2 important territories - potentially. The Riverlands would make a good royal domain in the future. Indeed, Martin's quote does look like a mean joke in hindsight. Not nearly as important. Roman Empire and Byzantine Em

Not if fight against the Others leads to the massive resurgence of the Old Gods religion. Also, more Great Houses need to fall - there has to be sweeping change of political landscape at the end of the series, otherwise it would have all been quite pointless and a waste of time. If Arryns, Tullys and Baratheons - who are all teering on the edge of extinction, are gone, the Lannisters are seriously disgraced, and the Starks are seen as the heroes with a divine connection, then it could work. Bran being the king of Westeros is part of the original outline of ASoIaF and, I guess, something that GRRM is really keen on, because the show-runners clearly weren't interested in the character and allegedly wanted to write him out completely. Yes, it doesn't make much sense from where the things stand at the end of ADwD. No wonder that Martin has been struggling with TWoW for so long. I thought that all the complaints about how haphazard and anti-sanitary KL was when compared to other great cities might have been hinting that maybe they are going to build a new capital after it is destroyed. And location on the God's Eye would be more central and provide that Old Gods connection. Martin does need to provide good justifications for the kingdoms staying together, though. Devastation after the Others, the greyscale epidemic and the civil wars could do it, but then Northern secession could not be presented as a good thing, so I dunno, maybe it doesn't actually come to pass. Concerning Jon - maybe he never leaves the NW in the books, given that it mainly happened to spike Dany's ascent to the throne in the show and FAegon is going to it much better in the books?

Isn't Davos conveniently fetching one for him? And it is fairly useful, since he, at least, is aware of the danger of the Others and can start to prepare the North for it, though with only a very partial success. Indeed not. That's the whole point - the "ungrateful northeners" plot fits Stannis's arc far more than Dany's. Nor is there really time for him to march south, if GRRM is serious about the Long Night. If he is not, well, anything can happen, but IMHO the incessant squabbling for power is getting fairly boring and repetitive. There is a full roster of people fighting in the south already. Why? Massey didn't even leave yet and it is very doubtful that he'd be able to find many sellswords willing to go fight in the North in winter, particularly not if they have to land as far north as Eastwatch. Especially since there is currently a recruitment craze in southern Essos. And if Davos brings Rickon, Stannis will have the White Harbour Port to use, which is a far more reasonable place to land an army, supposing that Massey actually manages to hire one eventually and chooses to bring it to Stannis, rather than FAegon. Masseys used to be very tight with Targaryens, after all. Roose is an interesting enemy, Ramsey not so much. It is entirely possible that Roose won't be finished when Winterfell falls, but manages to escape and to remain a thorn in the protagonist's side, helps the Others out of spite or whatever. However, there are only 2 books left and new things need to be happening, rather than the constant regurgitation of what we have already seen before. Basically, it all hinges on the question - will Martin treat the Long Night in the same lacklustre way as the show did or will he stretch his muscles as a horror writer (which he used to be quite good as) and make it something memorable? I am unabashedly for the latter - which is why I think that we saw almost nothing of Jon's book arc in the show. Instead, it seems to me that he mostly inherited Stannis's and FAegon's plots. I used to think that Jon was not dead and would be healed by the same ritual as Mirri used on Drogo, only performed properly, rather than with the intention of turning the patient into a vegetable. Unlike the fire-wights, Drogo's wound was actually healed. But after what we have seen in the show about Jon's ending, I am not sure. Also, having the funky flaming blood would be very helpful in a scenario where the Others are not a droid army. Yea, book Jon was already breaking his vows and leaving the Wall when he was killed, so the "death" loophole in the oaths is completely unnecessary. It is also quite ludicrous to think that people would believe in it and accept it without question, like they did in the show, where even Cersei somehow totally bought that Jon was still super-honorable, rather than a power-hungry oathbreaker. He could have just left the Wall at the end of ADwD and been saved from the charges of desertion by Robb's will turning up, if that's where GRRM was going. But is it? Given how quickly the whole KiTN thing was dispensed with in the show and Jon's ending, I kinda doubt it. IMHO, Jon getting assassinated was in part to _stop_ him from going down that road. Very much so, always provided that GRRM didn't become as enamored with incessant power struggles as D&D and still intends to deal with the threat of the Others and the Long Night, which should be devastating even without them, properly. His intended endings for the main characters, as presented by the show, raised some doubts in my mind, but I am still hoping that he isn't going for the cheap and underwhelming resolution.

Exactly! That felt like treading water in the show. I don't know about nearly all the soldiers getting killed, but the "ungrateful northeners" stuff could happen here, as I don't see Dany's forces marching up north through the snows in the depth of winter - they are all unused to the cold and there would be very little fodder too. Stannis, OTOH, did come north to win the people's loyalty by helping them and also to defend the realm against the Others, and is currently reaping very little recognition for it - which I don't expect to change that much even once he removes the Boltons. IMHO, the Others need to finally come to the forefront of at least a couple of PoV plotlines, otherwise they risk to become a travesty, like in the show. Also, I think that there is at least one vision, though I don't remember whose, that Stannis is going to be killed by the Others - which is why it would make sense if the attck on Winterfell happens, but they lose and the castle falls.

Well, it is no wonder that GRRM has such problems with reaching this ending, which he envisioned back when ASOIAF was supposed to be a much simpler tale spanning many years of the characters lives. He has been trying to fit a square peg into a round hole this whole time! It is deeply ironical that he spoke about Aragorn's attitude towards taxes and other mundane aspects of running a kingdom being something that he'd like to see before agreeing that he would make a good monarch, when Aragorn at least had tons of experience from serving in Gondor under an alias, and the whole time Martin intended Bran as his end-game . And I do think that it is fully GRRM's intention, because the show-runners clearly weren't interested in Bran beyond the absolute minimum that they had to include, and I have also read rumors that they wanted to get rid of him a couple of seasons ago. But then, it has become quite clear that Martin and I think very differently - for instance his assertion that we were supposed to see Bran as "young Arthur" in his first PoV sounds utterly preposterous to me, because that's where we were also introduced to a glowingly described bastard of mysterious parentage . I mean, come on! It is also fairly incomrehensible to me how GRRM didn't see that progressing the time-line at a good clip, or failing that, a time-skip was utterly essential for him to be able to reach his ending in a half-way organic manner. I mean, at the end of ADwD Bran is at best 10 (though Tommen is still 8, so he might be 9), Sansa is 13, Arya is 11. Yes, there were plot-lines hanging at the end of ASoS (which outcome he could have largely avoided with a little planning, BTW) and yes, he may have had to include a few flashbacks, but whatever brute-forcing he needed to do to make it work would have been nothing compared to the contrivances that he'll have to resort to now. Still, here is my stab at predictions for the remaining volumes: I am rather perplexed that so many chapters were spent on Essos, in view of the show's ending. I can only imagine that events there will play a more important role in the books. Speaking of the character plots - I am more than ever convinced that Jon never leaves NW in the first place, given how his arc ends in the show. His show plot is a mish-mash between Stannis's and FAegon's plots and there is no reason to think that Martin will make it clear that that the Others were completely destroyed for all time. If he is a revenant in the books, well, that has a cost, too. It also looks like we'll really be treated to Bran's escape from the cave and trek back to civilization during which he'd somehow miraclously avoid getting his paralyzed legs gangrenous with frostbite. Yawn. It was intriguing, but quite implausible when he was going in the other direction and will be even more unbelievable now. It also seems to me that to become King Bran he'd need Bloodraven's consciousness downloaded into his brain or at least a way to access it at need. Just "seeing" things can't be enough for him to develop the necessary judgement and skills. The only way I could actually see King Bran would be if Westeros was properly devastated over a long period of time and a good chunk of the old nobility dies out. _And_ if he is very obviously instrumental in the defeat of the Others and uses the momentum to revitalize the Old Gods worship in the south. This could be interesting, but only if GRRM doesn't cheat on the Long Night and/or a 10-year-long winter. It would make sense for the Starks to be one of the very few old Houses remaining, partly due to their magical abilities and coming into ultimate power as a result. Would also be a nice diveregence from the brutally overused in fantasy "magic departs in the end because it is really a metaphor for a person's/civilization's childhood" narrative. Greenseeing and skinchanging in no way way preclude technological progress! Unfortunately, GRRM is on the record with his desire to implement a variation on "the Scouring of the Shire", which suggests that he, too, doesn't intend to make the Long Night earn it's billing. And, to be honest, that's going to be very disappointing for me. Because this is exactly what the thousands of Tolkien imitators always borrow from him - an ancient menace preparing itself over the millenia, just to be quickly defeated by severely weakened and initially unprepared protagonists. In LoTR the whole world-building is set up in such a way that it makes sense and the means of defeating Sauron is established early on. This is not the case in most fantasy that it inspired and certainly not in ASoIaF. Also "the Scouring" is only a small part of the narrative of LoTR, rather than as bad or worse than the threat of Sauron! It is kinda manipulative to claim that 3 dragons (or one in the end) are suddenly as bad as the Long Night and too much destructive power for a person to handle, when this hasn't been the case at all in the past. Valyria at it's height and it's Doom - yes, this was the Kind of "Fire" that would be comparable to the Ice of the Others and the LN. Tyrion - I dunno. Neither his show nor his book arc (so far) suggests to me that it is plausible for him to end up where he does in the show. Given how either way he is massively tarnished by his actions, associations and largely responsible for much of the destruction that has already occured and is yet to follow in the books, as he is the one who pits FAegon and Dany against each other and was a huge contributing factor to Dany snapping in the show, due to his ineptitude and disloyalty. He is also very autocratically-minded in the books himself, so... I guess being the author's favorite _really_ pays off? Queen Sansa - I don't know. I have always thought that she is the future of the Starks and the one who will rebuild Winterfell. But I suspect that making her a queen was a sop to the audience after presenting them with 2 evil queens + villanious and very easily toppled Olenna/Ellaria and ineffective Yara, just like Arya killing the NK was a sop for Dany's fall. Would only make sense and feel earned to me with a long time-skip. I don't know what to think about Arya's ending - one would think that she'd be the perfect Mistress of Whisperers _and_ that at least some Starks should stay together and help each other? But maybe the Faceless Men never stop hunting her in the series? She did express an interest in travelling in her PoVs a couple of times, but nothing on this scale. She did briefly wish to become a sailor, but so did Dany. She is no Elissa Farman. Bronn is illiterate, so yea, the best Master of the Coin Evah! Not. It makes sense for him to become Lord Stokeworth, but a believable architect of a new bright future he is not. I honestly don't know about Cersei and Jaime in the books - IMHO, it doesn't make sense to draw out their story like the show did. GRRM needs to trim the PoVs and he made it explicitely clear in the last 2 books that Cersei was only as successful as she was because it suited more capable players for her to be. But that's pretty much at the end with FAegon's arrival in Westeros. And Varys was fully behind FAegon from the start, not to mention responsible for pretty much every realm-destabilising thing that happened since his arrival in Westeros, so he is a villain fully deserving of execution. In fact, the Seven Kingdoms would have been far better off if either Robert or Tywin executed him immediately upon assuming power. What else? I think that the Others have their means of getting through the Wall figured out and don't depend on dumb luck. In fact, I hope that the wight incident was a test and a few of them have already covertly infiltrated the North or will do so early in TWoW. Euron is probably working for them - wittingly or unwittingly and will be a powerful and terrifying villain. Finally, I feel that there are sly hints in the show at a massive greyscale epidemic in Westeros in the books that "could have been" but wasn't started by Jorah's pointless borrowing of JonCon's illness. Also the Bells will clearly have something to do with JonCon in the books, just like the battle at the fozen lake belongs to Stannis. Maybe "see you in 10 years" is an allusion to a 10-year-long time-skip that GRRM intends to implement? Indeed, but show Jon borrows FAegon's plot and in the books Dany will know that FAegon is fake, from multiple sources. Even if Jon's parentage also plays a role in her fall, of which I am not convinced, she'd be understandably jaded and skeptical after the FAegon fiasco.

Did you check if your library system now lends English ebooks over Overdrive? Because it made a huge difference for me in a somewhat similar situation. I loved Tigana - it used to be my favorite Kay along with the Sarantium duology, but I haven't re-read it in a long time, so the suck fairy might have visited. As chance would have it, I have recently read his "River of Stars", which I liked, but not as much as "Under Heaven", and am now in the middle of "Children of Earth and Sky", which, for some reason proved a somewhat tough going for me. In general, I am disappointed by his obstinately cleaving to what I can only call secondary world variations on RL history... particularly since even those changes that he makes don't affect things long-term. Maybe that's the reason for my present difficulties - because in my beloved Sarantine duology, history was primed to go in a different direction for Sarantium than for Byzantium, but now it was revealed that apparently it had all been all cosmetic?! That's why, but to much greater degree, I also couldn't warm up to the much lauded and excellently written "The Dragon Waiting" by John M. Ford - I just couldn't stop thinking that in such changed circumstances none of those people would be around/in power and War of the Roses wouldn't be still happening. Some other war for succession, possibly, but then again maybe not even that, given how much of it was rooted in the previous events, which in this secondary world took a completely different track. Still, as long as Kay keeps writing, I'll be reading his stuff... eventually.

I have the same problem on Win 7 PC, using Firefox. Just tried to post on the Literature forum a couple of times. Got blank page on submitting and my post doesn't appear when I load the page. I had 2 quotes and spoiler tags in my post - could that be the problem? P.S. Yep, tried again, the same result. This post got through fine, obviously.

Why should a Night King be leading them? In the books, he was just their human stooge, whom they were manipulating for their own ends. And he was allegedly treating the people under his command in they way that sounds quite similar to what Euron is doing. The show just liked how his title sounded and used it for the Big Bad. The Others are intelligent creatures, who might have deduced that having somebody doing stuff in the south might be more valuable to them, as humanity is bound to unite against them, once they attack in force. Or maybe they need him do something specific, even, before they can advance - much has changed since the last Long Night, after all, some forgotten magical safeguards other than the Wall might have been added, etc. Because, after all, it shouldn't be that difficult to simply circumvent the Wall. The wildlings manage it on a regular basis. And who is it say that they don't have a stooge in the North too, or maybe that they had somebody, but it didn't pan out? Nor would Euron necessary have to know that he is doing the Others bidding, yet. I come back to the sorcerer who castrated Varys and used the power to contact... something, and how Varys still has nightmares about the voice of that something and not of his own suffering. IMHO, it is increasingly likely that the Voice was an Other. And it is easy to imagine Euron having similar experiences, given his experiments with magic and sacrifice. Whoa, this is excellent, excellent stuff! There are, indeed, many relevant parallels. As to the woman, I immediately thought of the Whore of Babylon (yea, I know that she is supposed to symbolize the eponymous city, but when a shoe fits...) , googled it and I'll just copy Revelation 17:1 -17:11 here, because IMHO there are a lot of relevant things in it: 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: - Euron? 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. - could refer to Cersei _or_ to the Other who seduced the Night King 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having _seven heads and ten horns_. - might be either Cersei or Dany. 10 horns are excessive, but magical horns are becoming increasingly important. 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: - Cersei? 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. - Cersei,once she moves against the Faith? 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he comes, he must continue a short space. - War of Five Kings, but Stannis is yet alive in the books, so maybe at some future point, after he dies and Aegon becomes king? 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition. - Euron

But the thing is, the Greyjoy uncles were introduced as early as Theon's arrival on Pyke in ACoK - both Aeron and Victarion appeared on-screen, we have heard the story of Aeron's conversion and personality change, Euron, his eery ship and his reputation were repeatedly name-dropped, etc. And at the end of ACoK Theon was taken prisoner by Ramsey, which made him being the person in Dany's vision very unlikely. Then in ASoS we heard about him being slowly flayed, etc. which made it even less likely. The reasons to think that it was about him were always rather flimsy - "grey lips smiling sadly" - smiley Greyjoy - Theon. Not to mention that somebody had to be the "dread" of this vision, no? And Theon didn't fit that role at all. Now, I'd be the first to admit that some elements of the story grew - or bloated if one sees it that way, beyond what GRRM intended when he wrote Dany's vision in HoTU. All travel segments, most of what happened in Meeren, very likely Dorne, and history overview delivered via Brienne's trek through the Riverlands look like initially not intended post-ASoS developments. However, after reading this chapter, it is pretty clear, IMHO, that the Ironborn storyline wasn't a late addition. What hurt it was GRRM's deferral of it, due to scrapping of the 5-year-gap. Indeed. And, of course, there are indications that Aeron had magical abilities since his conversion, what with his perfect record of reviving people after a ritual drowning. OTOH, it is a bit odd that Euron seemingly only forces the potion on Aeron, and not on the other captives. Or does he just always start with his brother? Speaking of the Old Gods not being represented - well in the first series of visions, Aeron did see a forest burning behind Euron... @Lord Varys: IMHO, a far simpler explanation for Targaryen inability to produce Valyrian steel after their exile was not scarcity of potential sacrifices - criminals, pirates, etc. certainly could have been used for that purpose even after the exiles had abjured slavery, but that they never knew the secret of producing it in the first place - that it was an incredibly valuable technology hoarded by one or more of the most powerful families in Valyria. And speaking of what Craster's wives believed about the fate of their sons - well, of course they'd chose to believe that their children continued to exist in some form. Having seen the Others, all the TWoIAF evidence of an ancient civilization that ended in a massive magical catastrophe, and the hints that something like the Others may have been a concern for it, given the snippets from the series (including Varamyr's chapter) that the wights are sensitive to life-force and particularly that of newborn babies, Melisandre hinting that "untainted fire" of a child is more powerful, sacrifice of Varys's genitalia, etc., I'd say that notion of the Others using life-force of newborn babies for something magical is much more likely than transformation of living human beings into crystalline "smart ice" creatures.

Well, I do think that controlled application of dragonflame was involved in making of Valyrian steel along with the other stuff and you'd need a dragonlord's involvement for that. It would also make sense for one or a few of the dragonlord families to keep the monopoly on the secret of production of Valyrian steel, even if weren't their own family members who made it. They could still select and control the sorcerer-smiths involved. It would only make sense, given that the process apparently wasn't written down and Targaryens, even those who were sorcerers, never tried to revive the technology. @BlueNightzx : While not all Valyrian sorcerers were dragonlords, some dragonlords were sorcerers and Aenar Targaryen was allegedly such. Sorcery certainly wasn't something that had a stigma of menial occupation, unworthy of a noble in Valyria, from everything we know so far. So, comparison with Westerosi artisans isn't quite valid, IMHO. But Bran saw other fallen dreamers impaled on the teeth of ice during his coma vision and we know that BR came to Jojen when he was near death from sickness as well. I mean, being near death is likely not a pre-requisite, but it probably makes contact easier? Also, we know nothing about Euron's childhood and why he hides his black eye. He may well have had a head trauma at some point and that eye is all distended pupil, requiring an eye-patch. I don't think that Euron being so twisted is BR's fault - just that revealing reality of magic to somebody so twisted had very a unfortunate result. Yes, IMHO Euron has requisite abilities to become a greenseer, just not the character and temperament. Some very interesting thoughts about what Euron intends to accomplish lashing people to the prows, forcing them to drink the warlock concotion and drinking it himself - TWoW can't come soon enough, sigh. I don't have my books to hand, but I'll look for evidence of Euron being a rumored sorcerer in the past when I have time and opportunity - I am pretty sure that I remember their being some, but we'll see. In any case, he had Silence and his mutes prior to his exile Not sure about there being any one character behind their creation or even that they are a created species, rather than something from a fantasy equivalent of a parallel dimension. I also don't think that they literally change babies into Others like in the show - in ASoS when Sam flees with Gilly, it is mentioned that babies have particularly strong life-force, which even wights can see/feel from a distance. IMHO, the Others harvest and use that life-force to propagate or to propagate more quickly than they otherwise can. I.e. they are more like parasitic wasps, etc. Maybe. There must be a reason for Val's reaction to Shireen and I somehow think that there is more to it than straightforward prejudice. It is also possible that greyscale is a result of a Faustian bargain with the Others and allows them to control the victims without wightifying them first. Magical talent has been shown to crop up randomly often enough, even though there are families where it seems to appear with some regularity. There are a couple of Ironborn Houses that are rumored to produce skinchangers, aren't there?

Yep, this confirms that Euron was Bloodraven's Big Mistake. We knew from Bran's coma dream and Jojen's words that the 3-Eyed Crow had been contacting other magically talented people, some of whom didn't survive the experience - or maybe in some cases it were just their minds that didn't (Hodor?). Dreamers broken on the teeth of ice, etc. And since ADwD it has been likely that Euron was one of those visited by the 3EC, but things didn't progress any further, and now we see why. Presumably, BR noticed that the kid was a crazy socipath and abandoned him - but not before opening Euron's eyes to the possibilities of magic. @Lord Varys : I don't believe that Euron only began to experiment with magic after he met the warlocks. According to Aeron's prior PoV's he was rumored to be a sorceror long before that. It is just that magic was weak before the comet, so he couldn't accomplish much, like all the other magic users we have seen in the series. I also don't think that Children of the Forest made the Others or became the Others - the show has to be parsimonious with it's characters and supernatural elements, but as we see the books show a far lusher and more complex picture. IMHO, TWoIAF provides hints of better origins for WW, which are more consistent with what we know about the history of First Men - Children interactions. However, it is entirely possible and even likely that the Others are manipulating Euron. Maybe he managed to go back to the Heart of Winter after BR abandoned him and made contact with whatever is there? As to what he is doing with the priests - as we have seen, people with magical aptitudes are often drawn to the priesthoods. Aeron himself, with his perfect record of drownings, etc. probably has some. And the Red Priests actively look for magical talents and train them. Blood and deaths of magically gifted are likely more potent as sacrifices for blood magic than those of normal people. Speaking of Oldtown - here is to hoping that Lord Hightower and his daughter truly are sorcerers and will be able to blunt Euron's magics and protect their city. We will probably see them through Sam's PoV, given that Lord Leyton is his uncle by marriage and is bound to be interested in his news from the Wall, too. The Redwyne fleet is clearly toast, though. Re: Valyrian armor - it is notable that by the time of the Conquest, Targaryens only had 2 Valyrian blades, despite still possessing huge dragons. This suggests to me that the making of Valyrian steel wasn't something that all dragonlords could do, but a trade secret of one family, which died with them. Also, that Targaryens never were wealthy enough to afford a lot of it.

So, is it the permanent board for the time being? Is it safe to start new threads and write humongous wall-of-text posts that one would be unhappy to see dissolve into the ether within days/weeks? TIA.

Is it still safe to start a thread that one would wish to stay around for a long time?

Personally, I think that there would be no need for Sansa to go north in the books, as the North is ripe for being overrun by the Others and it's people are going to flee south and will need food. This struggle over who is going to hold Winterfell is ultimately as pointless as the War of Five Kings. In the show, the conflation of plotlines just gives Sansa, Jaime and Brienne more to do, without the need for extra actors, sets, etc. that their own plot-lines would have required. So, yea, in the show Sansa will return south, but in the books she'll likely only go north towards the end when the Spring returns, if at all. IMHO, YMMV.

Yes it does. Westeros is not a meritocracy and Sansa is already near the pinnacle of this society by birth. With some luck she might end up in a position of power. She'll also try to become a player after her experiences of being a pawn and LF's lectures on the subject. What could she have realistically accomplished at her age and in her situation? Who could have achieved more? And LF has toyed with much more experienced and supposedly highly competent people, not being able to match him at not quite 14 is no strike against anybody. Heck, LF himself had been a naive idiot at an older age, so what? As to "she didn't learn anything", you seem to be a tad biased, no? Re: "operation save the bird" - it reads like Titus Andronicus. Everybody dies! Pointlessly. You don't seem to have much use for Arya either. Hm... No "lone wolf dies, but a pack survives" for the Starks in your scenario, it seems. Just an excuse to kill as many prominent characters as possible in a highly convoluted manner. Personally, I am going to be annoyed if we won't see the concerns of Winter and impending Long Night come more to the fore in this volume. Civil wars have become a bit too repetitive.

Not on purpose, but if he had to leave in a hurry due to Sansa unexpectedly turning up, that would have been the best way to obfuscate what had happened. I mean, one of the "mice" would likely close the window from the outside too, given the opportunity. They'd have to be skilled enough to do so, and there is no point in risking LF or whoever remembering that the window had been closed and wondering about it. Re: Myranda, I wonder if it wouldn't have been better for her to guess Sansa's secret and know that she can't possibly marry Harry in the near future. Also, I really hope that she is not a complete fool. I mean, LF's generosity to her father is the only reason for her to be even a remotely realistic possibility for Harry's hand. Nestor had been really only previously important because of his office, he didn't own much. Which is another strike against Jon Arryn's ability to pick good people for important offices, BTW, as is also evident by his nominations as a Hand in KL. So, undermining LF and, by extension, Alayane, would be sawing through the branch that Myranda is sitting on. Particularly since we haven't seen any sign of Harry reciprocating her feelings. .

Wrong. When he explained his background to Arya, he told her that spells had been part of his Red Priest training. They just hadn't worked for anybody to his knowledge. We don't know if "The Kiss of Fire" is partly a spell that has become potent again when magic level waxed on Planetos. Thoros himself was clearly magically gifted from the start, as he had his visions of future in the fire as a novice already - and they were the reason for his not being booted out of the priesthood despite his unsatisfactory performance in training otherwise. It has been obvious from the start that the Red Faith prized magical ability. It also doesn't seem like raising a fire wight is in any way predictable. Thoros presumably continued to give last rites to members of the Brotherhood, seeing as they have all become followers of the Red God, and this ritual is an important part of their religion, yet nobody else rose. This fits with magic being mysterious and upredictable in ASOIAF, but also makes it highly unlikely that Jaime, Brienne or whoever else could be purposefully raised. Anyway, yea, I don't expect to see Jaime/Brienne/Sandor show up. If the news of Cersei's arrest are just hitting the Vale, then the former 2 won't work timing-wise and the latter, well, with crimes attributed to him by all sides I just don't see how he could stroll in and not get immediately killed. Also, it would hurt Sansa's narrative arc of gaining agency. The Blackfish... I dunno. The Vale would be a logical place for him to go and Sansa is missing essential pieces of info necessary for her figuring out LF and freeing herself from him. Brynden could provide that. Also, his own feelings re: Petyr, whom he helped raise, might be confused enough to prevent him from immediately opposing Baelish. In fact, now that I think about it, both Sansa and BF have pieces of info that the other doesn't know and that combined would reveal the scope of LF's treachery. Sansa has heard about Lysa and Baelish putting "tears" into Arryn's wine, but she doesn't know that "Tears of Lys" is a poison that supposedly killed him and Lysa's behavior prior to her demise makes it easy to dismiss her confession as "ravings". BF, OTOH, knows about LF's lies concerning the dagger and that Ned had gone to KL to investigate Jon Arryn's death because of Lysa's letter, not to mention Petyr's whole backstory and whatever else Cat and Robb confided to him. So, I could see how all this could work out without the Blackfish taking over the narrative. OTOH, I frankly prefer him appearing in Jaime and Brienne's plotline with the BwB, because somebody taking the reins away from unCat at a crucial moment is, IMHO the only way those 2 can survive, Jaime in particular.

Because one of the BwB was a former Stark guardsman Harwin who knew her quite well. IIRC Arya also revealed herself to him immediately, thinking that she finally found somebody who was unreservedly on her side. Rumors coming from the same source - the BwB, who knew very well that Sandor stole Arya from them. So, yea, the mere knews that Sandor was travelling with some ragged girl wouldn't have had anybody thinking of Arya. They did some odd stuff in season 2, where it looked as if Littlefinger recognized Arya when visiting Tywin in Harrenhal, but there was no follow-up on his part whatsoever, so it seems like itwas just a quick way to ratchet tension a little. If Varys had known Arya's whereabouts, he would have grabbed her for future use, or tried to.

After this episode Kevan is definitely out, IMHO. It has been stressed that there is nobody among the Lannisters to keep the things together should anything happen to Tywin, and Lancel has been namedropped. IMHO, he is the Lannister who is going to show up and take over some of Kevan's role, while the rest will go to Jaime and Pycelle. Jaime is technically a member of the council and is going to actually sit there finally, and they may put Loras there too (briefly). No need to introduce Kevan when they have already established characters with not enough to do. And also, grabbing honors, lands and titles like nobody's business, as Tyrion noted. Tywin wouldn't have been giving him all these concessions if he didn't feel that he had to. Book Mace was successfully grasping, and we don't know how sincere the QoT's disparagement of him was. She was trying to win Sansa's trust, after all. He didn't cover himself with glory during the Rebellion, but IIRC Connington did have Reach lords and men in his army and nobody asked for Tyrell troops before the Trident. I'd also guess that they were investing not just Storm's End, but much of the Stormlands, so that Robert couldn't get any more troops from there. In the show, it wouldn't make sense for the QoT to abandon her descendants in KL if Mace is a complete oaf and Marge's position hasn't even been made official. In the books, she only left after her marriage to Tommen happened. Re: Dany and the goatherd, it has been established in the books that Dany compensates people for livestock allegedly eaten by dragons. Here they showed her gaffe of offering thrice the price of the animals (quite subtle, with Barristan's understated reaction), which will lead to her being inundated with fraudulent claims. Re: Hazzea, in the books it isn't even known if she was murdered by Drogon. He was seen in the area, but Nobody witnessed her death and it happened when Sons of the Harpy were alteady active and had a reason to blacken Dany's image among the farmers. I imagine that they will leave it nice and ambiguous in the show, too. From TPaTQ we know that wild dragons didn't attack humans unless provoked or aroused by bloodshed.

No, in the books Tywin was extremely angry when it went that way, so angry that he was barely able to control himself. Like Tyrion, Tywin clearly saw that no matter how the trial by combat went, the outcome would hurt the Lannister regime. He also tried to keep the Mountain away from KL, it was Cersei who summoned him to be her champion behind Daddy's back. But then, book Tywin is generally far more cunning and capable than the show one and it is genuinely believable that he would have been able to put the realm back together. Here they seem to be gearing towards him, rather than Cersei, alienating the Iron Bank. Oh, and also he seems to believe that Dorne would support the Lannisters over a Targaryen with 3 dragons and an army?!! Dance is a great actor, but the writing for Tywin dumbed his character down a lot, IMHO. Oh, and WTF with Jaime as a rapist?!! Didn't Sansa hide the net in the godswood, where she met with Dontos prior to their escape? She noticed that one stone was missing, too. Too bad they didn't show her realization of that in the show.

Ned had the book (which, given that it was 5-6 generations old is useless evidence from realistic PoV), appearance of the 2 bastards he saw, LF's insinuations that all the others looked the same, appearance of Stannis and Renly and possibly appearance of Shireen and Edric, who were sufficiently known that Ned would have had an idea how they looked like even if he never saw them. And yes, it was that all 3 of Cersei's kids were blonde - Tyrion thought that if she had even one child by Robert, her kid's position would have been unassailable. Now, in the series, the Baratheon brothers are actually brown-haired in the way that a blonde child may eventually grow into, ditto Gendry, Jaime is not much fairer than them, Tommen is the mousy color that will turn dark brown in time and Shireen is blonde! I really don't understand why they didn't dye Baratheon hair black and Jaime's and Tyrion's fairer, as well as either picked really blonde kids for Tommen and Myrcella (there are enough of them among the bit parts) or dyed them too. Funnily enough, as things stand, Jon looks the most Baratheon of the lot! Oh, and re: Cersei's confession, it was private between her and Ned, Stannis can't use it as evidence. If he has a blonde daughter, he has no cause. It is such a senseless, counter-productive change, I don't understand why they went there....