Free Northman Reborn

9 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Stupid question.  Would the Shuttle have had the range for a Lunar Transfer orbit?  

No.

Well this show was the best thing I’ve seen in years. Until they went and destroyed it with Game of Thrones level messed up depravity.

Talk about character assassination. Damn. No coming back from this for Karen. And if Ed ever takes her back he loses any self respect she left him after this humiliating betrayal. 

Ludicrous writing. Bold and Beautiful level shit.

I reckon I’m done.

@Ran

I'm just watching your and Linda's Youtube discussion around Bran as King.

Of course, I agree that Bran as King makes no sense from a books perspective, and I don't think that this will be the case. However, I find some of your arguments in this debate a bit questionable.

Specifically, your opposition to the idea of Bran making it out of the Cave. I honestly don't understand why THIS of all things appears so unlikely to you. You point out some far out ways for him to make his way back to the South, almost as if to demonstrate how implausible it is. These include a dragon flying him back, or him possessing someone else's body and therefore only making it back in spirit (that other body variously being Hodor, Jon Snow or even Euron).

Honestly, why go to such lengths? There are at least two, maybe three much easier ways for him to make it South, none of which involves a dragon giving him a lift or him possessing Euron.

First scenario:

The journey up was very difficult, true, but the Bran that journeyed North was a crippled, powerless boy, while the Bran who will be returning will be the Last Greenseer. We see the Cave is warded, so is it really a leap to think that Bran could ward his party's campsite every night on the way back to the Wall?

You say they had no food on the way up, having to resort to cannibalism. Well, on the way back Bran could skinchange any animal for a thousand miles around, and have it come and lie down at their campsite to be slaughtered for food.

So option 1 to get back to the Wall would be in the same way they came before, just with Bran using his magic to protect them from the Others.

Scenario 2:

We know there is a fast flowing river below the Cave. We also know of Gendel and Gorne's story. Is it that big a leap to have them take this underground river South, to emerge either much closer to the Wall, or maybe on the other side altogether? Certainly a more plausible theory than Bran skinchanging Euron, or having a dragon come fetch him.

Scenario 3:

The Cave may be quite far from the Wall, but it would seem to be much closer to Hardhome.  Could the backdoor be pretty close to the shrieking caves at Hardhome? From where a ship could pick him up, at the right moment? Again, this isn't any more implausible than a dragon fetching Bran etc.

So in short, these are three scenarios that provide quite a plausible way for Bran to get back from the Cave, without invoking extremely weird hypothesis. I think it was always obvious that Bran was heading back south after his Training Montage. And am on record for stating as much.

Of course, I still don't believe he will be King of Westeros. But this brings me to the other issue I have with your and Linda's discussion. You briefly discuss options of Bran being King Beyond the Wall, or King of the Children or even King of the Weirwood Throne instead of King of Westeros. But why not the most obvious scenario of all - Bran as King in the North?

If the Show stuck to the truth by making the North independent, then Sansa as Queen in the North above a returned and live Bran is illogical, and clearly a flawed outcome.  What would make much more sense is Bran back as King indeed, but King in the North, not King of Westeros.

That would even combine some of your other options, namely that Bran could be both King in the North, and King on a weirwood Throne, in Winterfell's godswood. Perhaps below the Godswood, in a chamber among the Heart Tree's roots, similar to Bloodraven's Throne in the Cave.

That really is the most logical outcome.

1. It shows how he will be accepted - given that no southron lords will need convincing as he is the rightful Stark heir to Winterfell, and only the Northern lords matter in that regard.

2. It shows why he would be held in high esteem as a greenseer of the Old Gods, given that his realm worships the religion to which he is the High Priest, effectively. So no need to convince the Seven, their septons and their millions of southron followers.

3. It deals with his inability to have an heir - as far from needing to elect a new heir once he dies, either Rickon or Sansa and then Arya will be his heirs by default.

4. It also deals with the weird setup of how the North gets independence, but somehow the rightful King in the North becomes King in the South, which is just non-sensical. In this case the North gets independence, gets ruled by the rightful King in the North, and the South either chooses someone else, or they all become independent too. (Which would make sense given that the Iron Throne is apparently getting melted down).

4. And I have already addressed the non-issue of the supposed difficulty of how he gets back from the Cave. As I demonstrated, there are fairly easy, and not at all implausible - ways of getting him back to Winterfell.

I am only halfway into your and Linda's discussion, but so far it seems you are steering very far from the above, most obvious, solution to the whole predicament. And I can't understand why?

The North’s independence is supported pretty clearly by the books. As in, should it happen there will be a lot of references in the books which in hindsight makes it an outcome with a strong and foreshadowed buildup. Much more so than Bran becoming King of Westeros, that’s for sure.

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Maybe we will be getting that 5 year gap at some point in the next two books. It would certainly explain the delay.

 

Interesting idea. Not impossible. To me the main challenge would be the series would then resume 5 years into Winter, which means everyone should pretty much be starving by then. 

1 hour ago, divica said:

doesn t bloodraven say that he won t leave that cave?

Nope he says it will take Bran some time to learn the greenseeing arts. Specifically, when Bran asks how long, he says maybe a year, maybe 5. Quite similar to the originally planned 5 year gap, wouldn’t you say...And likely similar to the amount of time George originally had planned for Arya to spend learning assassin skills with the Faceless Men, Sansa to spend learning politics with Littlefinger in the Vale and Jon learning leadership skills at the Wall.

Edit

And Dany having her Dragons grow in the East.

The greenseers weren’t confined to trees from a young age. The Children’s greenseers gathered in places, moved around and generally interacted with the population.

They were noted as having different coloured eyes and having shorter lives, not as being physically tied to a tree from a young age.

That is simply not how it worked. Bran will merge permanently with a tree yes, but only when he is old. For now, he is just undergoing his training.

And will leave the cave once done.

Again. Martin may have told them Bran will be king, but it seems there will be two kingdoms at the end of the series. Might be George meant Bran would be King in the North. Which makes FAR more sense, given that he is Ned’s oldest surviving son.

Were D&D smart enough to grasp WHICH king Bran was going to be? King in the North - sure. King in the South - makes no sense.

Arya’s arc is to almost lose and then find her Stark identity again.

The burying of Needle rather than destroying it. The future  reunion with Nymeria. She will go from No one to Arya Stark again. And in that rediscovery of her identity the climax of her arc will be initiated - whatever that may be. Something to do with the Pack being a better option than the Lone Wolf.

I think it will be Jon. For a limited amount of time (maybe measured in years) until he voluntarily takes the Black. After that, the Throne is disbanded, which is effectively what the Show has done in a way, making it some kind of weird elected position which may end after Bran dies in any case.

Aegon will be in Cersei’s role - meaning in possession of King’s Landing with the Golden Company, but dragonless.

The Dragonhorn plotline will be rather pointless if Euron does not get a dragon as a result of it, so I expect he will get one.

22 minutes ago, DMC said:

Strongly disagree there.  This is undoubtedly a seminal moment in Westerosi history.  If it wasn't why would Martin stage the conflict during such an era?  It makes more sense that things will change in the denouement than if things didn't.

As seminal as the previous Long Night and Aegon’s Conquest. In fact, I would argue this moment in history combines and resolves both those initiating events, and will effectively end the legacy of both - ending the Others and Aegon’s dynasty.

1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Overtly? No, certainly it will not be such a thing. 

But covertly? Perhaps, and maybe that’s not a bad thing. Remember that what men call the old gods are simply the timeless greenseers. Who better to keep the world in balance?

I disagree that Westeros is heading for a “better” or “improved” social state. This is not a story of an upward trajectory for society. It is just a snapshot of a particular moment in the looong history of Westeros.

Interesting events will happen, and the old political games, conflicts and wars will continue as before. The smallfolk aren’t being emancipated. Democracy Lite isn’t taking root. And an age of rule by omniscient greenseer plugged into Mother Earth isn’t about to Dawn.

I don’t believe this story is culminating in a theocracy of the Old Gods ruling the Seven Kingdoms. That is simply too big a leap from everything that went before.

Bran ruling the North, with the North experiencing a revival of Old Gods worship - sure.

The Old Gods replacing the Seven in the South - no chance.

6 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Sure it does. Loads, even.

His POV is the first opening one in Book 1 Chapter 1. Read that chapter carefully again.

It's Bran’s journey that's the archetype, the monomyth, the hero's journey. Not Jon’s. Bran’s.

Last Hero, master of magic, High priest of the Old Gods, immortal greenseer, sure. Agree with all of that.

King of the Seven Kingdoms, nope.

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well sure, it's definitely a possible scenario.  I think Sansa will be in a position to refuse it and frankly I anticipate Tyrion will be happy to annul it.  And as I've stated, I think it's hilarious you guys are like "Bran? Man that's crazy!"  While in the same breath are willing to entertain Robin as someone that could hold any influence.

Robin will be completely in Sansa’s pocket.

6 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well, I just strongly disagree with this premise that it "does not matter who is monarch on the last page."  It matters to me

Seems our qualms are as simple as that.

So, you mean the guy who persistently brings up Aragorn's tax policy as a criticism of Tolkien?  You don't think he's going to take an avid interest in depicting how the government will function upon the conclusion of his life's work?

I suppose, yes, Edric could come back in ADOS and all of a sudden become Henry VII.  I won't completely rule that out.  But you seem to not realize how damaged Robin is.

Says who?  The Last Hero vs. the guy Arya hung out for awhile with and now is just another minion of Stoneheart?

Obviously disagree.  In fact, that should be the start rather than the end.  Ending dynastic marriages is, empirically, something the realm should do if they had any sense.  Let's look at major family unions via marriage since around Robert's Rebellion:

• Targaryen/Martell
• Stark/Tully
• Arryn/Tully
• Baratheon/Lannister
• [..next generation]
• Baratheon/Florent
• Baratheon/Tyrell
• Stark/Westerling
• Baratheon (Lannister)/Tyrell [repeat]

How many of those worked well, for any parties involved?  None, I'd say, although I guess the Westerlings and Tyrells are alright at the moment.  The reticence to the concept that the Lords might be like, "hey, let's stop doing this shit considering it keeps on starting wars" is baffling to me.  If the "logic" of Martin's works have shown anything, it's that dynastic marriages breed conflict.

Jeebus get the fuck over this morally superior bullshit.  It was a comment referring to his newfound internet popularity.

So you think Tyrion and Sansa will actually end up together?

Just running through scenarios. Given Martin’s love for the character of Tyrion I could imagine such an outcome, but I could as easily see her married to Robert Arryn or even to no one. 

Edit

Isn’t a kind of union between Lancaster and York kind of how the Hundred Years War ultimately ends? I’m not that close to it, however, so could be wrong.

If there is no line of inheritance at play, then Sansa married to Tyrion Lannister becomes the power couple of Westeros.

She is sister to the King in the North and likely Lord of Riverun as well, cousin to the Lord of the Vale and cousin to Jon Targaryen last trueborn Targaryen.

Her son by Tyrion would be connected to 4 of the great Houses. So if it comes down to pure politics the son of Tyrion and Sansa could end up King many years from now.

1 minute ago, DMC said:

I've articulated the logic.  You have neglected to respond.

Your logic is flawed. I have stated why.

6 minutes ago, DMC said:

One could (and many have) make the exact same argument about Bran becoming King.  That D&D clearly didn't really care about him, and definitely didn't know what to do with him upon him becoming "the three-eyed raven" suggests the exact same type of argument.

Because it's the ending of the books we're discussing.  Honestly, I don't see, like, Arianne becoming Queen, or Edric, or, I dunno, Davos, or anyone else.  If there will still be a monarch over (most of) Westeros - and I agree that that's still very debatable - I expect it to be a major character.  That's just a deep held assumption I have.

That isn't really true.  Henry VII would be a key character in the last book in a War of the Roses series.  Quite strikingly like Aegon VI in ASOIAF at this juncture, for obvious reasons.  If you think Aegon VI is gonna end up the monarch, fair enough, but I disagree.

But does Edric Storm make more sense than Bran for a council to choose?  I'm skeptical.  And certainly Bran is a better choice than Robin Arryn.  Your options aren't the best beyond Jon.

No offense, but I was just emphasizing my skepticism that he would survive.  Even he does, no, he's not a better option than Bran.  He is a deranged young man, and we've been given no evidence of any type of competency - in fact quite the opposite.

So sorry to disrupt your delicate sensibilities.  And the actor in question turns 19 in two months.

The difference is that an independent North is clearly and consistently set up in the books, whereas Bran as King has no logical basis in George’s work.

I disagree that the Unsullied or anyone else will have the power to exile Jon to the Wall for killing Dany.

I think Jon automatically becomes King after killing Dany. I think after some time, Jon then abdicates as King and takes the Black of his own accord. And at that point the Throne either ceases to exist or it passes to Jon’s heir, either by blood or appointed by some Council. The Show just skipped this part, to reach the same ultimat end point for Jon.

I also think the North’s independence is real, something hinted at throughout the books, and clung to even now by Northern loyalists. It is so out of place in the Show ending that it has to come from George.

But I think it is Bran who is King in the North, with Sansa being a powerful southron political player, as sister to the King in the North - maybe even Lady of Riverrun if Edmure’s line dies out, and perhaps married to Robert Arryn or Willas Tyrell.

18 minutes ago, DMC said:

Bran rules from the Twins.

As someone pointed out above, it makes no sense for Sansa to be Queen in the North if Bran still lives and is King in the South. He is the Lord of Winterfell. Sansa can at best be his heir or Hand or some such arrangement. I suspect Bran becomes King in the North. You cannot just discount the religious aspect here. He   is not of the Faith. He is a greenseer of the Old Gods.

(Now, I wonder if an alternative is him ending on the Isle of Faces. But that’s a long shot.)

Another obvious logical flaw is: imagine you have medieval Europe coming together and wanting to pick a King to rule them all. Then Russia says no they don’t want to be part of this deal, they want to rule themselves. It is nonsensical for the remaining kingdoms to then say OK, you go, but let’s pick your Tsar to be our King, despite Russia not being party to the whole deal.

That’s just stupid.

Sansa will rebuild Winterfell. That is clear from the Snowcastle scene in the Vale. But in what capacity? Regent to Rickon? Hand to Bran the King in the North? Power player in southron politics who orchestrates beneficial outcomes for the North? We don’t know.

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Brian invites Dany, Jon, Sansa, Stannis to a meeting and hired sells words slaughter them all.

Ah so similar to how Cersei just blew ip her rivals and took the Throne despite having zero claim to it.

On a serious note, though, I think the idea of a Great Council selecting a King has been carefully set up by George and will take place. However, I can so no realistic way in which Bran emerges as the Council’s choice of King.