HosteenOsteen

Sorry for double post

shahid-pk 1441--you have gotten it. The writers think they are attaining the level of Shakespeare and Greek tragedy by killing everyone off, that they are reaching some sort of level of profundity. But Shakespeare and Greek tragedy have a sense of catharsis and of suffering that is morally meaningful, and says something about our world which is ultimately affirming. This is just a horror movie, with all the triviality of such. Life is hard, but it is not without heroism, and the good guys do not always lose. That is what the great writers and storytellers of the past, in their different ways and modes and cultural contexts, have always seen. It is lamentable because i truly believe the five books as ASIOAF as we have them ARE classics. If the books go down this road--and I am not just talking about the fates of Stannis or Jon Snow or Myrcella, although these were all sensationalized and trivialized from what the books were indicating (and I think, in shock at the botching of Stannis and the North, we have not laid enough stress on how awful and boring the TV Dorne plot is). I also blame the TV writers not just for having the show outstrip the books--that was always going to happen--but to have it occur in season 5 and not 6 or 7. There was a lot of good, tragic stuff in book 5--Quentyn's death, Kevan's death, etc. And I think the Iron Islands should have been put in, just so we can see more of Asha/Yara who sis a strong and very interesting female character and could have presented a counterpoint to the, again, meaningless deaths of Shireen and Myrcella and the brutalizatuion of Sansa. That this was not put it is why Balon is still King. And Balon being the last standing of the five kings is just the sort of video-game trivialization that this series did of a book series that was not finished and whose incredibly high quality in the first five books may now forever be despoiled.

shahid-pk 1441--you have gotten it. The writers think they are attaining the level of Shakespeare and Greek tragedy by killing everyone off, that they are reaching some sort of level of profundity. But Shakespeare and Greek tragedy have a sense of catharsis and of suffering that is morally meaningful, and says something about our world which is ultimately affirming. This is just a horror movie, with all the triviality of such. Life is hard, but it is not without heroism, and the good guys do not always lose. That is what the great writers and storytellers of the past, in their different ways and modes and cultural contexts, have always seen. It is lamentable because i truly believe the five books as ASIOAF as we have them ARE classics. If the books go down this road--and I am not just talking about the fates of Stannis or Jon Snow or Myrcella, although these were all sensationalized and trivialized from what the books were indicating (and I think, in shock at the botching of Stannis and the North, we have not laid enough stress on how awful and boring the TV Dorne plot is). I also blame the TV writers not just for having the show outstrip the books--that was always going to happen--but to have it occur in season 5 and not 6 or 7. There was a lot of good, tragic stuff in book 5--Quentyn's death, Kevan's death, etc. And I think the Iron Islands should have been put in, just so we can see more of Asha/Yara who sis a strong and very interesting female character and could have presented a counterpoint to the, again, meaningless deaths of Shireen and Myrcella and the brutalizatuion of Sansa. That this was not put it is why Balon is still King. And Balon being the last standing of the five kings is just the sort of video-game trivialization that this series did of a book series that was not finished and whose incredibly high quality in the first five books may now forever be despoiled.

shahid-pk 1441--you have gotten it. The writers think they are attaining the level of Shakespeare and Greek tragedy by killing everyone off, that they are reaching some sort of level of profundity. But Shakespeare and Greek tragedy have a sense of catharsis and of suffering that is morally meaningful, and says something about our world which is ultimately affirming. This is just a horror movie, with all the triviality of such. Life is hard, but it is not without heroism, and the good guys do not always lose. That is what the great writers and storytellers of the past, in their different ways and modes and cultural contexts, have always seen. It is lamentable because i truly believe the five books as ASIOAF as we have them ARE classics. If the books go down this road--and I am not just talking about the fates of Stannis or Jon Snow or Myrcella, although these were all sensationalized and trivialized from what the books were indicating (and I think, in shock at the botching of Stannis and the North, we have not laid enough stress on how awful and boring the TV Dorne plot is). I also blame the TV writers not just for having the show outstrip the books--that was always going to happen--but to have it occur in season 5 and not 6 or 7. There was a lot of good, tragic stuff in book 5--Quentyn's death, Kevan's death, etc. And I think the Iron Islands should have been put in, just so we can see more of Asha/Yara who sis a strong and very interesting female character and could have presented a counterpoint to the, again, meaningless deaths of Shireen and Myrcella and the brutalizatuion of Sansa. That this was not put it is why Balon is still King. And Balon being the last standing of the five kings is just the sort of video-game trivialization that this series did of a book series that was not finished and whose incredibly high quality in the first five books may now forever be despoiled.

As television, it was a 5. As anything that had any relation to ASOAIF, 1. But the larger point is, the writers have lost any sense of what a plot, even a tragic plot, is. Shakespearean tragedy has death and pain and suffering, but there is also a higher reason or purpose. This is just nearly random savagery, done to 'breka the Internet; on one night, and will not be re-watchable, and people will not be talking about it in the future. The TV show at least, as famous and lucrative as it was, will, I suspect not be a classic, although season 1 deserved this honor, and there were good moments, albeit decreasing, in 2, 3, and 4, 5 jumped the shark.

I thought it was awful beyond words. A 1.

My first reaction to last night was not to watch the show any more and perhaps even not to read the books; I overreacted and was wrong. We have to persist. Last night though was a terrible, devastating blow to many readers and viewers and that should not be minimized

Pretty devastated, both by what happened to Shireen and the way a major reveal, potentially, from book 6 was rushed forward when they had more than enough material in books 4.5.

Interesting....I think there are iots of Biblical references in ASOIAF, and Aeron does remind me of a Biblical prophet--the difference being of course the Greyjoys are an established line, and Saul;s family had never been kings until he was....

Prince Rhaegar reminds me a bit of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria-Hungary, the one assassinated at Sarajevo in 1914: both had vague plans for reform that were suspected by the monarchs to whom they were heir (Franz Josef; Aerys II); both Franz Ferdinand and Rhaegar made unusual marriages (Franz Ferdinand marrying below his social level to a mere Countess; Rhaegar marrying--or eloping or kidnapping--while his first wife was still alive to someone else's betrothed). both seemed nicer and more enlightened than most of the rest of their dynasty; the deaths of both heralded the imminent fall of their dynasties; and both died tragically so they can be a Rorschach blot for the dreams or what-might-have-beens of others.

"Winterfell" sounds somewhat like "Winterfilth," the tenth month in the Shire calendar in LOTR.

I feel with respect to the Arya Stark/Alia Atreides from Dune parallel noted earlier on this thread, that because Alia ends up 'gong bad' in the Dune books, GRRM will pull a reverse and have Arya not go bad in ASOIAF.

Thenedstark--I see that Stormlands name as alluding more to Durrendal, Roland's sword in The Song of Roland.

Just saw Christopher Marlowe's play Tamburlaine, based on the historical early 15th century Mongol-descended emperor of Persia etc Tamerlane (Timur). A lot of Khal Drogo in this character, although T. got further and was crueler; also just the general atmosphere reminded me of the Essos portions of ASOIAF.

Great catch

We discussed before the similarly of Joffrey and Caligula; these lines from Suetonius' Twelve Caesars on Caligula particularly reminded me of Joffrey, especially his cowardice at the Siege of King's Landing... I think I may fairly attribute to mental weakness the existence of two exactly opposite faults in the same person, extreme assurance and, on the other hand, excessive timorousness. For this man, who so utterly despised the gods, was wont at the slightest thunder and lightning to shut his eyes, to muffle up his head, and if they increased, to leap from his bed and hide under it. In his journey through Sicily, though he made all manner of fun of the miracles in various places, he suddenly fled from Messana by night, panic-stricken by the smoke and roaring from Aetna's crater

I see a slight bit of Prospero in Shakespeare's Tempest in Rodrik the Reader. an old man who lives in his books. Prospero is much more powerful though. and a magician.

I agree on that Targaryen/Dunedain parallel eps as the number three is involved, Aegon/Rhaenys/Visenya, Elendil/Isildur/Anarion. Of course, the Númenoreans dud not really conquer anything, a lot of the land they occupied was not settled; the Targaryens took over preexisting kingdoms and a state structure ready to be ruled.

And the Macbeth "Birnam Wood come to Dunsinane" moment with Deepwood Motte is also an allusion to Fangorn Forest overthrowing Saruman in LOTR< where the trees actually come there....

Barristan in this chapter is so much like an NFL coach coming back for one last ride, a Dick Vermeil or Marv Levy. I see GRRM's NFL fandom coming through here.

Or the Tunisian street vendor whose death started off the Arab Spring in 2011 (and tPatQ is recent enough for GRRM to have known about this).

Yes, I think the entire Faith Militant has an aspect of Savonarola.....

Alester and Davos in jail in ASOS remind me of Joseph and the other servants in jail in Genesis 40...and similarly Joseph becomes in effect the king's hand.

The Calormen section of THE HORSE AND HIS BOY in C. S. Lewis's The Chronicles of Narnia is a bit reminiscent of the Dothraki/Essos sections in ASOIAF.